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Old 10-22-2014, 11:02 AM   #1
Daray

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Dividing this post into two parts - the new prestige and class specific.

(A) NEW PRESTIGE TREE

(1) Bulwark of Mana:
  • Personally, I'm fine with the general premise behind this ability, but it could certainly use a high degree of refining.
  • The main issue for me, is that for it to actually be considered useful, it needs to be something that can be strategically timed around AE cycle timers (not every 1 in 3) or other script elements. In it's current format it is most likely something that will just sit there on our hotbars, and not really used (beyond maybe an "I think my group might die, and 20% DR will save them" or "Oops, I accidentally hit it").
  • Reduce the base reuse from 3 minutes to 1 minute (so half that when reuse capped). Most AEs fall between the 30s to 45s timers.
  • Reduce the duration to 3-4 seconds to make accurate timing/execution of the ability (against AEs) important.
  • I can't really comment on the size/value of the magical damage reduction to the group, because that is dependent on other factors. It needs to have a tangible effect though.
  • Perhaps the current cast time and recovery values are back to front (0.25s cast, 1.5s recovery at cap). If this is intended, however, then it isn't something I particularly like.
  • Cast and recovery times should be instant, or at the most 0.5/0.5 base (0.25/0.25 capped). Anything longer just detracts from the ability being useful in the scenarios that it *should* be useful in. This change would also lend itself much better to reactionary PVP gameplay.
  • Cost of the ability seems somewhat high. Would consider lowering it if considering altering the ability along the lines of the above.
  • Does it stack when used simultaneously by multiple sorcerers that might end up grouped together. I can't test this easily, and if it doesn't, should it?

(2) Universal attribute modifications (second and third rows)
  • Not a whole lot to comment over the design aspect of these.
  • I do like the fact that they have been designed to scale against existing attributes, and as such are somewhat more future-proofed than the majority of AA options out there (personal gripe, but it frustrates me that such large portions of older AA trees, based on fixed additive attribute values, do not offer this kind of scaling).
  • The earlier prestige tree conversions (e.g. pot>cb) don't seem to benefit from Undeniable Power/Imbued Sight, though I imagine that is intended, going by the tooltip.
  • Tested Sanguine Sacrifice and (some) item-based pot/cb procs against the second row pot/cb options, and both seemed to work fine.
  • Not entirely sure the third row is currently working. I see no change to my reported pot/cb values when using abilities (with Power from the Soul and Accuracy from Strength taken).
  • The third row options are shown as buffs in the effects/target window, which probably isn't necessary (clutter).

(3) World Ablaze:
  • I assume the purpose of this ability is to force the mage to consider when they want to sacrifice some base potency modifier, in exchange for an AE, but the damage value on the AE completely misses this trade-off.
  • To illustrate, the damage value on the AE component is half that of a non-SDA'd Firestorm.
  • As things currently stand, the only way I would use this ability is purely for the base potency modifier, consuming an orb *only* to refresh the duration of the buff (and maybe just eliminating the last orb early).
  • The AE doesn't doublecast, when it should.
  • The AE doesn't benefit from mod, when it should
  • The AE doesn't proc anything (Frozen Solid included), and it should.
  • The AE doesn't count towards Fiery Blast, and it should.
  • Can the AE be resisted? If yes, is it affected by disruption? No damage spread on it though, so nullifies the benefits of overcapped disruption.

(4) Unda Arcanus Spiritus:
  • My biggest issue over the design of this ability is the reverse-range modifier for calculating the damage. I just don't see it working well or allowing fluid gameplay (it jars with the range requirements of every other ability). Outside of specific circumstances, casting on the move isn't something we can do well and this range-based dance (against our other abilities) will just cost us potential. Removing the range requirements altogether would get my vote (but keep the divided damage mechanic).
  • The tooltip does state limitations(?) on what it is affected by, but then (in practice) I see it criting against my crit multiplier, and affected by both the debuff and vulnerability multiplers, so perhaps there might be some conflicting/potentially confusing information in the tooltip. I hope that the tooltip is just lacking clarity in this regard, and that it is intended for this ability to be fully affected by all multipliers/modifiers (as with regular spell arrays). Then again, it doesn't doublecast and is not affected by ability mod, when it probably should, so who knows. Reasons for wanting it to be fully affected by all multipliers/modifiers include different classes weighting different attributes, and future-proofing the ability by ensuring it will scale appropriately.
  • Not sure where the damage is intended to come in, but it is somewhat worthless atm. In an 8 target scenario (training dummies), Firestorm does almost 5x as much damage (to each target) as UAS' in its highest damage tier.
  • Also it doesn't proc anything (Frozen Solid included), and it should.
  • The damage doesn't count towards Fiery Blast, and it should.
  • It doesn't doublecast and is not affected by mod.
  • Can the AE be resisted? If yes, is it affected by disruption? No damage spread on it though, so nullifies the benefits of overcapped disruption.
  • It doesn't obey the 8 target limit stated in the description (currently seems unlimited targets, although it keeps lowering the per-target damage amount appropriately).
  • It is affected by radius modifiers, but it seems anything over 20m doesn't change the damage value (caps at 20m).
  • Someone made a negative point about the name sounding like something Harry Potter would say, and I kind of agree, lol.
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Old 10-22-2014, 11:02 AM   #2
Daray

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(B) CLASS-SPECIFIC / OLD

Somewhat hesitant to suggest anything that would have a noticeable impact on class balance, because, from my observations, sorcerers (particularly warlocks) are in a relatively good position atm (how much of that is a result of our specific raid/group setups, and utility-based/practiced proc distribution, is a point of debate though). So will stick more to 'quality of life' suggestions.

(1) 'Ice Comet' to 'E'ci's Frozen Wrath' prestige conversion not affected by spell quality improvements:
  • Pretty self-explanatory (and this is probably a wider issue affecting multiple classes), but AA and prestige conversions should also be affected by spell quality.
  • Conversions are already affected by "Class Focus" effects, so the possibility for doing so with spell quality should already exist.
  • I assume Ice Comet is a high-probability candidate for an Ancient option, which just increases the importance of this particular example.
  • Conversions should be superior to the original ability, but not sure how you can factor in the high quantities of mod to ensure AE conversions remain superior (i.e. AE abilities gaining 1/3 per target).

(2) Fiery Blast:
  • With the vast majority of temp buffs (charms, other clickies, abilities, etc) being on a 1 minute (or multiples thereof) cooldowns, any chance of getting Fiery Blast reduced from a 2.30 base reuse to a 2 minute base reuse (i.e. 1.15 down to 1 minute capped)? Even if this comes at a slight cost. More of a usability improvement, because the cooldown on FB jars with everything else.

(3) "-burn" type abilities (Manaburn):
  • Can we get these coded in a way that will (fully) scale against itemisation, i.e. in a form similar to regular ability/spell arrays? While, in theory, they should scale against itemisation due to primary attribute values being tied to blue stat values, it doesn't (fully) account for effects granted via itemisation (e.g. uplifting, practiced), buffs, or other AA choices (that grant additions to multipliers).
  • Base value calculated in some form against power/health pools in a similar format to pri stats (at a large reduced value over the current live ratios).
  • Affected by all of the multipliers that currently affect abilities (potency, crit multiplier (+ new critical system), mitigation debuff and vulnerability - and possibly SDA/ab-mod).

(4) Resist Break - Dragon tree (all mages):
  • As with the vulnerability ears, any chance these can be changed to affect *all* magical damage? Our raid setups have been a little lopsided (with multiple wizards/conjurors), and this has relatively disadvantaged our other classes (nox based in particular).
  • Never did take the time to test these, but I've always assumed they stacked (much like the ears). Is this assumption correct?

(5) Catalyst (Sorcerer) / Crit Chance AA:
  • Guaranteeing that your next spell cast will critical has been rather worthless for the longest time. Any chance this component can be reworked to be useful against the new critical system?
  • Probably the easiest way would be for it to grant fixed additive crit chance (at a meaningful value against the new critical system).
  • However, I would much rather prefer something that offered future-proof scaling (e.g. short duration temp buff that granted a *base* critical chance modifier)
  • Further to the crit chance AAs, might be worth taking another look at the fixed crit chance values granted by 'Spell Expertise' and other class equivalents (bards included). Seeing 176 crit chance on the handcrafted food makes me think these are now set at a beyond negligible value.

(6) Passive regenerating wards (often granted via AA):
  • This affects many classes beyond just sorcerers (e.g. bard resist songs), but it is also a sorcerer issue (Magi's Shielding, Ward of Sages, Scaled Protection).
  • Passive regenerating wards should be rescaled to provide base values appropriately balanced against current hitpoint pools and mob damage values (and then also ensure they scale appropriately against our other multipliers).
  • While rebalancing these across all classes, the bug(?) (that allows you to inflate the ward values far beyond their intended values) should be fixed (apply buff, mentor, unmentor, zone, is the easiest illustration of this).

(7) Wizard left-side prestige (single target line):
  • I know I've said this last year, but it is worth repeating: The left-side prestige will never be used as it is not a viable alternative under any scenario.
  • At the very least, it ought to offer wizards an advantage in ranged single target scenarios.
  • 'Blaze' isn't enough and should be redesigned (not mod). It is rather easy to gain fixed ability mod values (where wizards are currently pushing their excess reforging pool). That and our high SDA values will further diminish the relative value of 'Blazed' casts, as doubled casts do not benefit from mod.
  • 'Incineration', while it does scale against certain multipliers, is still a proc, and as such is further disadvantaged by existing mod and SDA values (from original design). Also overly limited by the single target heat spell restriction.
  • 'Mystical Heat' is fine on paper, but indirectly suffers from the problems that Manaburn has (see above).
  • 'Hellfire' is a rather average ability (inferior to Thunderclap in damage, but on double the cooldown of Thunderclap). Pending any useful changes to Blaze, either the damage values or the reuse (or both) should be looked at.
  • Is this important at the end of the day? Maybe not, because I'll just do what wizards do, and continue to use right-side under all scenarios. It would be swell to have a viable alternative though.

(8) Firestorm:
  • Increase the base radius (from 7.5m) to 10m, and reduce the "Enhance: Firestorm" AA to instead add 10% / 1m per rank. The existing combination remains unchanged (at 15m), but the cap is increased to 20m, leaving headroom for Spell Reach and Resonance.
  • This will better match our other existing AEs, and be a little less annoying to execute AE rotations if 'Unda Arcanus Spiritus' remains a reverse-range AE implementation.

(9) Iceshield:
  • It is tough to get the triggers on this ability consumed, especially with our (main) brawler tank. Frequently I just watch them fall off when the duration expires.
  • Be swell if we could have the proc condition changed to operate in a similar manner to Prismatic Chaos (on a spell/combat hit). Or something that allows it to proc more reliably on our brawler tanks.
  • The focus effect for Iceshield should be changed (to grant an extra trigger or something mildly more useful) if so.

(10) Fortify Elements enhancements
  • Still on my list, but a rather minor point.
  • Allow the AAs in the wizard/shadows tree (Enhance: Fortify Elements and Arcane Barrier) to affect our group's total Max Power amount. Currently these abilities only affect the rather insignificant portion of power directly granted by this buff. We have plenty more ways to buff Max HP than we have to buff Max Power.
  • Also, is the mitigation value granted by mage group buffs set at an appropriate value in light of the upcoming raid zone requirements (130-175k)?


Anywho, longer post that I thought it would be, so I'll stop there, unless I remember something else. Didn't even know that there was a 10000 character limit on individual posts.
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:00 PM   #3
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As always, Daray can write the needs of wizards (and sorcerors for that matter) in a detailed and clear manner. I hope this time around some if not all or your suggestions are listened to and possibly some modifications be done to the classes, moreso, some of the quality of life and AA revamp ideas as time for true multi-class balancing seems short prior to this expac release.

I second all of the points made, and can't think of any others that would trump the necessity for some of the ideas above so I will hold off on them.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:32 AM   #4
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everyone knows that all other threads are meaningless once Daray makes his.

This is the one to read.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:37 PM   #5
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Agree 100% with Daray's post but would also like to request that change fusion to be something like E'ci's Frozen Wrath. Meaning change the nature of the spell so that it has the same range as this Frozen Wrath. I am not asking to change the reuse or the number of mobs it hits only the range of the spell. It makes no since for a Wizard to be unable to use this spell in all situations. Some guilds want the mages to stay ranged . . . effectively removing one of our best abilities.
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Old 10-27-2014, 11:47 PM   #6
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Eh, it won't be changed, and changing it would be rather pointless anyway, given you have similar range requirements on optimizing your other abilities (BoD, Firestorm, Thunderclap). Really, though, our left-prestige tree should be filling the void that is our weak 'single-target ranged capability'. Currently it does nothing worthwhile for us.

On the upside though, there are very few fights (currently on Live), that I can think of, that force us to range for extended periods of time - maybe with the exception of Cruor, but that's probably just more to do with the way we do it.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:26 AM   #7
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Since UAS did have its damage value increased and timers jostled, I suppose I should re-comment on the updated implementation.

From an efficiency perspective (dmg vs time invested in casting it), I suppose the potential isn't as bad as it was, but it is still rather underwhelming, particularly since I was only looking at the highest damage tier in my testing (and not what would be realistic combat returns based on our limited positioning as determined by other abilities).

The biggest issues for me still are the (reverse) range-based damage implementation, the fact it still doesn't proc anything, doublecast, or count towards Fiery Blast (guessing the ability just isn't tagged correctly?). The lesser issues are still included in my OP, and since nothing much has changed from it, I might as well quote it in its entirety rather than just type it all out again.


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Old 10-31-2014, 03:21 AM   #8
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Same issue on conjy too.. it doesn't make planar wreck to trigger and it doesn't spell double attack either. The increase in dmg is nice though for summoner at least it will be used all the time for sure.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:11 PM   #9
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It has a max Increment count of 4 in the description, so when you detonate 3 of them it reaches 4 (starting from 1) and the effect ends. It works either way but I suppose it might make more sense if it counted down.
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Old 11-06-2014, 02:33 AM   #10
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In a perfect world, yes. In EQ2 world, unfortunately doing that would cause undue stress on the server because it doesn't bend that way.
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Old 11-06-2014, 05:51 AM   #11
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Quite laughing, spoiled kid asking for more ;-)

on beta my test wizard mitigation is higher than the one of my inquisitor, and way way higher than the one of my necro .. battlemage armor and battehardened and his self regenerating ward is quite decent for solo content
and irrelevant for other (which is intended) ... and anyway its value probably grew a lot due to the change on ward (CB now fully applies).

Just a short reminder : summoner don't build increments, they don't have sanguine, they cannot record damage and release it. If some mages need attention it's certainly not the wiz/warlocks ;-)
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Old 11-06-2014, 06:29 AM   #12
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I have to agree with with "Just a short reminder : summoner don't build increments, they don't have sanguine, they cannot record damage and release it. If some mages need attention it's certainly not the wiz/warlocks ;-)"
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Old 11-06-2014, 07:42 AM   #13
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That's a shame. It would have been more logical to have it displayed the correct way around, though perhaps that is the ocd part of me wanting it so.

Thanks for the response.
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Old 11-06-2014, 07:44 AM   #14
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Not sure if anyone cares about "solo" content. If people did, then they'd just draw the conclusion that summoners/inquisitors are pretty well equipped for that. When people refer to class balance, it is typically while describing raid balance. That's not to say that your solo experience on your classes isn't important in the overall balance debate, it's just that it is far less so.


And yet our summoners seem to be competing just fine against our sorcerers on the beta raids we have been running (there are actually reasons for this). Not every class will use the same tools to achieve the same result or in the same way .. otherwise we'd just have ... 1 class. o_O That would be like me complaining about not having EB, soulburn, communion/undead horde, a primary pet, etc.


Edit: Oh, btw, in case you hadn't realized yet, that "World Ablaze" request that spurred you to post is equally relevant to your summoner alts. In case you hadn't noticed yet, both sorcerers and summoners are granted the same endlines. Wink
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Old 11-06-2014, 08:57 AM   #15
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Oh, on a random note, something that has been bugging me about the display on "World Ablaze".

Currently when you activate the ability for the first time (3 ball thingies), it shows a counter of "1" in the effects/maintained window. This goes to 2 when you detonate your first ball, and then 3 when you detonate your 2nd ball (i.e. 1 left).

Shouldn't this be the other way around, such that it starts with a counter of 3, and then counts down for each ball you detonate?
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Old 11-06-2014, 11:05 AM   #16
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That's exactly why i wrote that the regenerating ward value is quite irrelevant, but the mitigation is not because we can expect physical aoe.. Anyway asking for more mitigation when you are probably the class with the highest one after tanks is ridiculous.
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Old 11-06-2014, 11:45 AM   #17
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Err? Are you referring to my original post? Fortify Elements is the wizard elemental mitigation group buff. Most mages have an equivalent (as you ought to know), and the point of that statement was that these (mage - but not just mage) buffs should remain relevant against the vastly inflated item-based resist values and expansion requirements (190k+ requirements at the upper content end).
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Old 11-06-2014, 03:03 PM   #18
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Summoners do build increments on prestige ability, just different mechanic. And sure summoners do need some attention, but dps mostly is fine as it. Although i wouldn't mind wiz giving away some of their utility to summoners for more balance sake. Wiz do pure dps, summoners does less but compensate with extra utility, that's how it should be.
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:50 PM   #19
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Please do not post what a class does or does not need in this thread, for example, summoners. Daray is trying to help his class not deny others. Go say what summoners do and do not need in their thread I am sure some will be happy to say you are wrong while posting/stating facts BigGrin.
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Old 11-08-2014, 09:01 PM   #20
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I don't even know where to begin with all that...

There's a reason points don't get spent on those physical mitigation options for pve ...


Noone has said anything about physical mitigation, except you (well and now me in this post).
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Old 11-08-2014, 09:15 PM   #21
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This just made my day, I haven't laughed that hard in ages thanks!
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Old 11-08-2014, 09:51 PM   #22
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Probably read too quickly, you actually mentionned regenerating ward and the group elemental ward (who care about it)
but not the self magic shield ;-)

What is funny is indeed to post such detailed concerns about mecanics that are totally broken/unbalanced and disfunctionnal.
We are not dealing with quantum physics and not even with 18eme century newtonian dynamic, Eq2 is set of random things, a mess of arbitrary abilities.

The question is then are sorcerers functional ? answer is yes.

Dev time should be used to fix non-functional classes : First and foremost scouts classes that do most of their job in a passive manner.
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Old 11-08-2014, 09:58 PM   #23
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How can a warden who picks max health gear tell daray he doesn't know his class
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:11 PM   #24
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Or who takes Faith of the Fallen and neither Protective Instinct or Howling.

Telling Daray he doesn't know his class is like saying Bill Gates doesn't have money.

By the way, he's not trying to say conjurors don't need anything, he's just pointing out the issues with wizards, as was said before.
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:07 PM   #25
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All classes have issues that's something we all can't deny however I feel and I'm sure others do as well that other classes such as necromancer's or BL's need more attention for balancing but I don't think it really matters right now since the devs main priority is to get this expansion out the door and functioning to playable standards(if they manage to pull it off).
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:53 PM   #26
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wow. lol. yeah! i agree with kalika! what does daray know anyways??!?

haha. sorry. couldn't do it with a straight face. but man it was fun trying.
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:23 AM   #27
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What is wrong with people... I mean seriously, Daray has been nothing but constructive in this thread and not in the least bit condescending or "whiny" from what I can see. All of his ideas are well thought out and documented clearly. He is basically one of the few wizards worldwide that almost every other wizard (or any dps class really) knows and has gotten some sort of advice from in one way or another whether it's from his various DPS guides or just asking him directly.

If Sorcs are at the top of the dps chain right now, they should be.. along with Predators. EQ2 has always tried to rely on the premise of Utility and DPS sort of offsetting each other, ie. classes that have more utility tend to do less DPS (yes, there are exceptions).

Sorcs were pretty much made for pure DPS, there's nothing else special about them, besides dying a lot, we tend to be very good at that BigGrin.

Summoners are doing really decent dps from what I've seen, especially for having some nice utility like ET, Stoneskins, Resses, etc. and in most cases, a good bit more survivability. If anyone thinks Summoners aren't parsing well, just go look at Aniathor Wink
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:59 AM   #28
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That's the thing sebekian its like enchanters right now their utility is getting to the point where its getting out of date/obsolete where now one may question why bring a enchanter. The same can be said for summoner's since their utility is so lackluster right now that if they can't compete on the same level as sorcerer's in AE and in single target that if you had a choice between bringing two sorcerer's or two summoner's you would want to bring the sorcerer's. Now conjuror's right now are actually pretty close(in terms of single target)since all of their abilities scale well with your characters stats but necromancer's are not doing so great since some of their abilities either don't scale well or scale with just one stat(lifeburn) or have a long base reuse timers. IMO I won't not mind bringing more raid wide utility such as making hearts/shards more appealing and being in the top 5 in terms of dps. All this is more so true for Beastlords and it's why top end or even mid end guilds don't have a one at the moment.
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:17 AM   #29
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Sorc's also have utility now and more so with their first new prestige ability that is gonna have its uses in this expansion for sure.
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:51 AM   #30
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Are you ********? -- asking Daray if knows his class that is just classic. He is one if not the best player in game that understands game mechanic.
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