EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Altar of Malice Beta > Class Discussion (AoM Beta) > Mages
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-14-2014, 04:28 AM   #1
Veta

Member
Veta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

After consulting with other summoners, not many are happy with the current summoner prestige tree, most importantly the opening ability. There are rumors going around that there might be some pet revamping but this is more importantly aiming towards the scout pet and the tank pet from what I have been told. As of currently, since we can not see any of the changes to these pets, if there were any plans, the mage pet is still the best to use. There are a lot of reasons that the initial ability can be useless and some of those ideas I stated here https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2...s-other-classes-archtype.551852/#post-6110703. The is definitely a lackluster ability.

Here is a quick sum if you did not read the post. The ability itself makes previous summoner aas useless and not only that, the summoner trees are very limited as is. Shadowstep easily makes up the porting issue which comes from AA and you have to take it in order to get reanimate anyways, call servant fixes the call portion which already has a lower cool-down than the initial ability, the rotation of proper pet abilities can save the pet from dying easily, from aas the pets receive a large damage reduction. The ability itself only lasts for 3 seconds which does not make a major difference. Pets themselves do not share mitigation etc so will die easily. If content is anything like this current expansion where pets get curses or receive any other damage, this ability just delays the inevitable. From seeing the sorcerer initial I feel like there is going to be a lot of unavoidable damage for our pets as is being implemented into AoM, with our pets not sharing resists this will be a major issue.

The summoner is definitely a liked class to have in raids because of their raid buffs, the buffs provided to groups, and the utility they can provide to groups. The classes already provide plenty of utility/buffs to the group/raid and I think now would be a better time to give them more of a dps boost in order to compete with top end sorcerers. Sorcerers have definitely been a favored class this expansion because of their ability to scale dps well off of multi-target fights and still be the best at single-target dps. I like how both summoners and sorcerers gained the same end-lines, but if anything this just leaves both classes in the same position of sorcerers being more preferred over summoners.

When a summoner's pet is dead we decent portion of our dps. We have dimensional storage to save us some dps-loss, but if it dies again depending on the fight, we have to use a lot more time to resummon before being able to summon it again. The ability is only available every 15secs with a duration of 3secs this will not save our pet for what could possibly be in store.

Two popular alternatives that were brought to my attention are these:

First - (Personally my favorite of the two choices) A clone that copies the summoner's cast for X amount of time, much like the scout ability. Because it is a clone/pet it will not proc damage (which is most of a conjuror's dps for the past few expansions, or a necro's dps if they spec to do multi-target/ae spec fights), but will give summoners the opportunity to have more burst or effectiveness with certain abilities and the need to actually have to time certain abilities to be more effective. Lets face it, anyone person who has played a summoner can agree that the summoner's blues/greens are just terrible. The only reason they are cast is either nothing else is up in the rotation or it is a fight where we need to trigger as many of our incremental procs as possible from the prestige. This would allow us to make those abilities more useful. It would also make more use of our swarm pets so we would not have to completely rely on up-keeping increments of our prestige abilities in order to be effective because these actually do a decent amount of dps of rotated correctly.

Second - The other option, much like a clone, was just a second primary pet that lasts for a moderate period of time or permanently. This pet would get the same gains as our pet and would also cast our pets abilities and the ones we cast through our pets e.g., soulburn. This would allow for one of our most powerful abilities to be cast more over a duration by an additional pet giving us another way to possibly burst effectively. A major issue with this one versus the first is it only provides additional single target damage versus the ability to AoE more effectively. An up-side is if our pet dies while channeling a major ability, e.g. soulburn, it will still be used in some way.

I think these alternatives are a much better to improve the damage output potential of summoners in raids, versus giving an ability that is potentially worthless. I am not 100% sure what is being brought to us in future content; however, with the way the endline prestige are being presented to mages, I feel there is going to be a large amount of AoE content and summoners definitely lack in capability to compete effectively with fights like that.
Veta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2014, 06:59 AM   #2
Anunnaki

Member
Anunnaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

Honestly, I'd take any of those over the one that's currently planned. I'm not going to argue for or against a hypothetical AA, and there are potential issues with either, but I'll take anything else at this point. I probably wouldnt even put the new row 1 ability on my hot bar.

And really, I'm still just waiting for complete stat sharing between pet and summoner. That alone would solve the resist/mit issue, and various other potential issues. I know a lot of stuff shares now, but it was like pulling teeth to get those bugs sorted (anyone remember this thread: https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/index.php?threads/summoners-broken-mechanics.544830/)

While we are on topic of pet taking damage, if you are going to put a mechanic in the game that allows the pet to get a curse, can we make Heal Servant cure curse as well?
Anunnaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2014, 11:19 PM   #3
Aniathor

Member
Aniathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I hate to always be the guy with negative things to say, but the opening summoner prestige just makes no sense to me. You guys did a massive revamp last expansion to make sure that nothing except for direct damage (I.E. the mob is targeting the pet) killed our pets. The entire community applauded these changes. Now the starting line up for summoners is an ability that makes our pet take no damage for 3s? Before I continue, just think about the logic there. Are our pets intended to be tanks now? This AA is literally 100% useless.

As Veta mentioned:

"From seeing the sorcerer initial I feel like there is going to be a lot of unavoidable damage for our pets as is being implemented into AoM, with our pets not sharing resists this will be a major issue."


I am not sure why anyone would want to play a summoner if the entire purpose of playing one was attempting to keep our pets alive. Without 100% shared stats, this is impossible, regardless of a 3s proc. Please keep the current system of non direct dmg not effecting pets.
Aniathor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2014, 04:03 PM   #4
Meshuggahx

Member
Meshuggahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

To be honest the thing i would like the most to see on pets is auto attack sharing stats with us.. maybe make the pet have ranged wands like we do to make it more useful.
Also instead of adding yet another abilities to hotbars, i would prefer buffing existing abilities, like for example make elemental blast or soulburn hit more than a single target (i'm not that greedy and asking 8 but even 2-3 will be cool).
Or something more realistically that can effect not only raiders is making the pet dump the aggro on the summoner.. i for example do alot of heroic content outside raids and i often get amends from the paladin but the pet can still rip aggro on it's own. Really it's the small things that helps. I really prefer buffing existing abilities than even more stuff on my 7th hotbar.
Meshuggahx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2014, 06:40 PM   #5
Iseous

Member
Iseous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I agree with Anunnaki, we need full stat sharing between us and our pets. If Soulburn needs to be adjusted slightly for more HP, then that's better than having our pets dying every 2 seconds. I remember my necro's pet dying all the time even with Bloodpact up.

I would prefer to see some more damage abilities. Summoners have a lot fewer damage abilities compared to Sorcerers, which makes it less interesting to play. For necros, at least make a Dooming Darkness upgrade, or change the way Siphoning of Souls works so that we can more consistently cast those new spells. Imo, those spells should just be useable when Siphoning of Souls is active on a mob.
Iseous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2014, 11:55 PM   #6
Enigma

Member
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Siphoning of Souls should be a buff on your toon like lich form and have a high % chance to proc the debuff on the mob when you cast spells! hate having to cast that thing over and over again on trash mobs.
Enigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2014, 11:57 PM   #7
Enigma

Member
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

the skull focii is not spell double casting it seems and the damage seems way to low.
Enigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2014, 11:57 PM   #8
Enigma

Member
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

and why are sorcerer's getting the same left end line as the summoner's?
Enigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2014, 12:10 AM   #9
Iseous

Member
Iseous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Even if it just procs you'd still have to worry about getting the right charges, which would still be annoying.

And I'm disappointed too about the same prestige endlines.
Iseous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2014, 12:11 AM   #10
Enigma

Member
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

hehe yep!
Enigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2014, 01:42 AM   #11
Veta

Member
Veta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Yes, Enigma, the ability end lines from what I have spent hours on testing do not doublecast, proc, or deal a decent amount of damage. I am also not sure why we are getting the same as sorcerers. There are also other things not working such as the use beneficial/ability within X amount of time and you receive Y. I can only speak for conjurors on this issue because I am not sure how these abilities would fair for a necromancer but I would believe they would dislike them the same especially when specing into graverot for ae fights.

Comparison of abilities:
Focii was doing on average 100k-200k less damage during a highest increment, no temps, cast than earthquake without the increments. The ability does not apply Planar Wrack, procs, or double cast making it an extremely unfavorable ability besides the buff.

Now the spiritus at 0 meter was doing on average 100k-200k more than an earthquake on a single target. At a 20m range the ability was doing 2.5x more damage than a single earthquake. This is not using the world ablaze pot increments, spellbind etc.

All of these were compared to a non doublecast earthquake. This means, if an earthquake doublecasts the damage is better than the abilities (at 0meter for spiritus) and if it even procs a planar wrack on one mob the ability is a lot better by far.
Veta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2014, 10:33 PM   #12
Enigma

Member
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

up the charges to 30/30 BigGrin
Enigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 03:13 AM   #13
Aniathor

Member
Aniathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

How about raid hearts/shards give the raid a 1min temp pot/cb/wdb buff.
Aniathor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 08:35 AM   #14
Enigma

Member
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I was thinking...for the first prestige ability why not something like your hearts/shards now give 20% pot/cb and 15 swd/wd for 15 secs on use or something of that nature. That could be the added incentive for bringing a summoner b/c it provides raid wide benefit.
Enigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2014, 08:39 AM   #15
Iseous

Member
Iseous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

That would be nice, but at the same time, now you're going to get tells every 2 seconds for more hearts/shards Tongue.
Iseous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 02:55 AM   #16
Tabri

Active Member
Tabri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default


I agree I personally didnt even want to put a point into this but was forced to its on my hotbar for now but I will probably just remove it completely. I personally dont want to constantly babysit a pet more than I already have to.
Tabri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 02:56 AM   #17
Tabri

Active Member
Tabri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Im confused are the endlines supposed to be passive I cant find anything in abilities or spells to put on the hotbar? I cant tell whats supposed to be passive or not on these.
Tabri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 04:38 AM   #18
Anunnaki

Member
Anunnaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

The endlines are not passive, they are spells. One works kinda like a limited buff (at least thats what I'm using it for since the damage of the second click is kinda bad.)
Anunnaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 01:02 PM   #19
Tabri

Active Member
Tabri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Okay thanks I will check my spell/ability tab again to find them I must have just overlooked them.
Tabri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2014, 11:27 PM   #20
Veta

Member
Veta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I am all for making those spells worth casting especially on fights that do not drain mana at all. The utility of those would be nice and I am all for increasing raidwide dps. Other than that, I still think summoners currently and in the future for this expansion will need a dps boost. We do not offer amazing utility anymore and all we do now is mostly raw dps. Our utility is lesser than that of sorcerers and the only one that can be considerably decent is Elemental Toxicity, not because of its damage but because of the dethreat. Even then its only worth casting some of the time on multi-target fights and mos summoners onl use it as a precast for single target fights. Other than that sorcerer utility is doing considerably more damage and contribution to the raid/group.
Veta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2014, 11:31 PM   #21
Veta

Member
Veta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Agreed, they are not worth casting for the damage. For each increment loss though you would still have some base potency instead of letting it dissipate and recasting a minute later for a potency boost. I have not tested any training dummies or any raid content to see which is worth doing, depleting it or incrementing it.
Veta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2014, 06:10 AM   #22
Anunnaki

Member
Anunnaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default


Yeah I havent really played around with it too much to see either. From what I can see now though, I dont see myself clicking it off early. Seems like a lot of maintenance for such crappy damage.
Anunnaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2014, 05:23 PM   #23
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

The number of broken things for summoners and necros is simply amazing.

1) First we do have important pet survavibility issues, we need to spend lot of AAs on that and it still does not really work. Other wizzie can simply be focused on dealing damage.

2) Second due to pet vulnerability we often cannot use the pet life burn, especially when constant dot tick on group.

3) Lifeburn and pet life burn do not scale. Given the risk taken when we use lifeburn it should really deals massive damage but it does not anymore. Lifeburn should also benefit from %HP, the spell descrption says that it uses our hps but indeed it does not.

4) Our soulgem system does not work really well, it's an interesting system but stones should be easier to acquire and damage dealing stones should bring more damage.

5) Our tank pet should be a very valid pet when soloing, but i never used post 85.

6) the number of abilities that we do have and that deal real damage is quite reduced.
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2014, 10:13 PM   #24
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default


I use pet burn/tainted heals a lot but says in the domination he died (i don't have bloodpact), against ragefire our conjurer pet died very very often and so on. In HKC i don't have much problem, but say against Sontalak ?

Also running the beta solo instances pet got almost 1 shot each time he took agro and he takes agro because i have postionnal jewels that proc ...

Lifeburn scale with HP from stamina but not from %HP items, according to people who did testing.
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2014, 12:49 AM   #25
Anunnaki

Member
Anunnaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

I dont have much primary pet survivability issues anymore (with the exception of drawing aggro.) Off the top of my head, there are only two fights in which I worry about a damage effect killing the pet, and both are heroics. The Ragefire x2 effect is one of them, and I personally think it *shouldnt* hit pets. Dumbfires, on the other hand, are completely worthless on some fights (Grendish is a good example.) I still think dumbfires should be non-direct AE damage immune, just like the primary pet is.
Anunnaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2014, 08:13 AM   #26
Giga

New Member
Giga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I agree with some of this and others not.

1: If we spec right our pet will rarely die, except on some of the more extreme AoE fights. Even then we can make our pets immune to all non-direct targeted AoE. We are a pet class, a wizard should be focused on dealing damage.

2: I use pet lifeburn all the time. With tainted heal and regular pet heal you should be fine. Sure, there are the times a dot ticks or aoe hits at the wrong time. It is a risk vs reward kinda ability.

3: I've not done extensive testing on this, but I know it used to scale with HP.

4: The soulgem system is much better than it used to be, but it still needs a ton of love. I'd rather it fill up charges on spells that you need rather than giving you the same spell over and over.

5: The day they announce a FIXED Tank/Scout pet is the day they announce they are closing down the game. I've no faith in this after the other "fixes" they have made.

6: What do you mean quite reduced? What spells we have should be sufficient and easily placed into a rotation.
Giga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2014, 08:38 AM   #27
Iseous

Member
Iseous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

1) Pet dies all the time even with bloodpact up, along with all the dumbfire pets. Those pets were supposed to be immune to AOE, but they get killed all the time even if they aren't the direct targets.

2) Soulburn was really good initially, but with more potency/abil mod/doublecast, you start to see that it doesn't scale well. Same with lifeburn. Both abilities should be adjusted to take into account those stats or else they will become a lot worse compared to other abilities that take advantage of those stats.

3) Apparently health added from %HP doesn't help.

4 + 6) They should just give us those extra abilities or allow them to be cast as long as the debuff is in place. Summoners have a much smaller array of damage abilities compared to Sorcerers, and it would be nice to have more spells to cast.
Iseous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2014, 06:03 PM   #28
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Btw in group pet is ok for 80-90% of the mobs but running the AoM timeline he died quite too much.
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2014, 07:57 PM   #29
Giga

New Member
Giga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

If your mage pet is dying with Bloodpact on then there is obviously an issue. Either bloodpact is broken or the pet is taking direct damage opposed to AoE damage.

Soulburn with Tainted heals will not always keep your pet alive, its much like using Lifeburn. There is an inherent risk in using an ability that drains health for damage, if they made that easier to avoid the skill would not be what it was intended for.

I agree and Lfieburn and Soulburn slowly become less useful as time goes on and normal DPS goes up. They need to revert Lifeburn to its earlier state before the reduced how much it scaled, and I agree they should include %hp to the forumla. Soulburn is tougher to really "fix". I mean they could make it scale more, but at what point does it become to much? Go back to KoS days when they fixed the scout pet and it was amazing. They realized it was way op and reverted it to what it is today. I'd hate to see that happen, because face it, that is how they fix skills.

We have less damage abilites as Summoner because we have a pet with its own abilities. I think we need some improvements on what we have, but adding in a bunch of other "DPS" spells could be detrimental in the long run. We have already decided for the better part the end lines are not worth/almost not worth adding to our spell rotation due to the dps it outputs. I'd rather they drop the "extra" spells siphon gives and change how it works. Hell, make it increase all damage the mob takes by X%, it makes us a bit more useful.

I'm not sure who was around since the start of EQ2, but we used to have a group buff that gave everyone a chance to steal life on a hit (Well, it never worked and it was removed eventually). Something like that could be useful, again based on how it worked.

We don't do horrible dps, we just don't have a lot to offer to a group. I can't think of many reasons we would be given a spot in a raid/group if there was another caster class that wanted in. Not saying it does not or will not have, but it is a fact.
Giga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2014, 11:04 PM   #30
Iseous

Member
Iseous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Bloodpact does not seem to work all the time, as I know there are plenty of fights where I had to constantly recast my pet when it did not have aggro. The 3rd and 2nd to last name in Dom he'll get one shot even on pull without even doing anything and Bloodpact up. In raid, Fire and Ice, along with Tavekalem (I remember on pretty much every pull when he's like 200 m away, my pet would just die and then keep dying throughout the fight even when other AOE blockers work perfectly fine). It's stupid, we're already sacrificing health for it and the pet still constantly takes damage, so we pretty much take up twice as many heals as any other class.

The inherent risk of Soulburn and Lifeburn are why those abilities should be better than they are. At the beginning of the expansion these abilities were amazing because of the huge increase in HP, but then once you get better gear they don't scale well. I don't see how it would be difficult to balance these abilities. On a simple level, they could just do away with the effect of health on their damage and just give them a damage amount just like any other damage spell (thus affected by pot/cb/abil mod/doublecast/new crits/etc.), but keep the risk of sacrificing health attached. That way they could easily balance how much damage it does relative to other caster abilities by giving it base damage relative to comparable abilities.

Rot Flesh already increases damage done to the mob, I'd rather have more than like 3 damage spells to cast, it makes fights so much less interesting than a Sorcerer when you have so much less variety in spells to cast. Sorcerers have like twice as many damage spells to choose from, which makes the rotations more interesting over a long period of time. We could easily have Dooming Darkness upgraded and Feasting/Pestilent/Servile Soul as constant spells added to our rotation. And then if Lifeburn was actually worth casting in raid, that would be another.

That would be cool if Lich could be converted to a group buff; it would definitely give us more utility.
Iseous is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:01 PM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.