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Old 09-26-2007, 07:55 AM   #31
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[email protected]afen wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
If you worried about guards so much Bozidar, you would know running up to our gate is out of their chasing zone. =)

lol...

Because that x3 of cowards is just gonna let you all run straight past you without ANY of them using a stun/snare/root on the trainer?

You don't like that one? Well fine, here's a list for you.

Stealth, Invis Totems, swimming across and jumping on the bridge near our gate, so many ways to get past the guards. People do it everyday so why they complain I don't know.SMILEY

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Old 09-26-2007, 08:14 AM   #32
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i'll explain for the 70s:pvp in lower tiers happens like this:x2 raid in DLWgroup in CL near WCmore or less nothing else.usually our teen group hits up dlw first, maybe checking WC, but htey are a bit low now, usually CL is dead, it's *very* rare that anything is happening there unless a grp or x2 is being chased from dlw.so we have a look at antonica, going through all the xp areas, blackburrow etc, walking from QG to NQG is usually a hightraffic area, there is *always* pvp there, and if nothing else is happening, you can always guarantee that nqg has some action. sure you can avoid it, but it would be nice if q's were actually forced to build decent groups so they couldnt lame behind a raid force, or guards that 1shot you.I know that in freeport anyone in a x2, unless fighting a q x2 is given a lot of crap, it's not done and seen as cowardly; and if you do it, expect to be shamed in level chat. it seems that this is seen as the norm in qeynos, and tbh - I dont see why?!!! its not exactly difficult to put a group with a healer together imho.
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Old 09-26-2007, 03:34 PM   #33
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Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Antonica and The Commonlands are T2 zones.  While T2 includes the level 14 twinks, and to some extent the level 20s, it (and its counterpart the CL) is more importantly the very first step into PvP for those new to our PvP servers.The issue seems to be that locked T2 (and the borderline T3s who hunt for T2) PvP is so popular.  This is understandable.  But the problem arises in that we tell newbs to "lock at 10 and quest, quest, quest." and yet don't want to afford them even a slight and very ineffective means of protection (the gate guards) from the myriad of level 14 Druids, Rogues, and Rangers camped right outside their front gates.The issue of the front gate guards for either city is overstated.  They are mediocre at best in the protection they offer.  Level 20s, and even less, train them off with ease to allow their group mates easy pickins.Do those who don't need the guards (like level 14 Champions) hug the guards' skirts like lost little boys?  Yes.  Is that a worthwhile reason to take away the only protection offered to the true newbs to our server and game in their very first foray into the world of PvP?  No.The guards only affect BEGINNERS PvP.  T2.  The very first PvP levels.The non-newbs hugging the guards' skirts do it because they know you will come to the gates.  And like Bozidar noted, if you kill the guards there will be no one at the gates.  Not as in elsewhere in the zone, but as in sitting in NQ/WFP.  So do you really want to remove the guards?I'm not saying "level up lame-o lockers".  I'm saying that those who are PvPing in a T2 zone that is the first zone (other than Caves or Ruins) for those beginning to PvP, need to understand and accept the presence of the gate guards.
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:07 PM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:
Get rid of the level lock system and everthing will be better !
There you go that's the answer to it allCause above everything we want less players aroundRemember the population after 36? If it wasn't for server transfers Nagafen would have been the new vox
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:20 AM   #35
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Bibe wrote:
i also did laugh at bloodfang, you say there are 10 people on vent with you who are unwilling to join forces against a band of 6 pirates?!!! i lold irl at you saying this. - nearly as much as when you said you camped your toon at nqg - what a tough man you are getting your kills behind guards :/
to be fair to bloodfang, he's a good guy.  He keeps a toon there to help out lowbies, not to gank for fame.  I take from his messages that he doesn't have a terrible amount of fame.. and is just trying to help out new players there.  I respect that 100%
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:23 AM   #36
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Magius789 wrote:

The probability of finding a well rounded group to PvP against at that lvl is slim to none I would imagine. 

on venekor, maybe.

I came to this server with a few friends, one of them is left.  We built groups by recruiting players with like thinking, and by organizing.  It's really really not that hard.  Just takes *gasp* effort.

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Old 09-27-2007, 11:29 AM   #37
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Muraazi wrote:
Just don't fight by the guards, is it really that hard...

You should read the whole thread, yes, it's that hard.

We can /sit at TS griff and gank solo's all day.  Not a huge deal.  Not a lot of fun either.

But when groups, and RAIDS of qs refuse to come out from behind guards, it spoils pvp.   We don't want easy solo kills. we want good pvp fights..

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Old 09-27-2007, 11:32 AM   #38
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Tamarah wrote:
Is that a worthwhile reason to take away the only protection offered to the true newbs to our server and game in their very first foray into the world of PvP?  No.The guards only affect BEGINNERS PvP.  T2.  The very first PvP levels.

those beginners can just zone out.

and to be fair, any "beginer" standing behind the guards isn't going to live anyway, he has to zone or die.  i could ranged attack most newbs to death.. on my 13 brigand.

The guards, in Commonlands (including the mysteriously aggro QEYNOSIAN guards by WNC), Antonica, and DLW, the guards provide very little to the gaming experience.

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Old 09-27-2007, 12:03 PM   #39
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Half of those, if not all hiding behind guards are probably in junk treasured gear, and wouldn't be a fair fight. No, if you wanted a fair fight, you would go hunt down the Qs in Commonlands, or Darklight Woods doing the same thing you're doing in Antonica.

People stay at the guards too, because they know eventually you'll end up there. You're causing your own problems by going there to begin with.

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Old 09-27-2007, 12:08 PM   #40
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Demron wrote:

Half of those, if not all hiding behind guards are probably in junk treasured gear, and wouldn't be a fair fight. No, if you wanted a fair fight, you would go hunt down the Qs in Commonlands, or Darklight Woods doing the same thing you're doing in Antonica.

People stay at the guards too, because they know eventually you'll end up there. You're causing your own problems by going there to begin with.

People with Champion, Destroyer, and Dreadnaught titles.. blue through yellow to us... in a raid X2... hiding behind guards.

I have screen shots.

We hunt them in CL, and they call home.  We hunt them in DLW, and they call home.  We hunt them in antonica.. and they run to the guards.

Yes.. we have created our own problem.. we should go out with 3-man teams because apparently 6 man teams is a game-breaking feature if you actually know how to pvp.

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Old 09-27-2007, 12:30 PM   #41
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Tamarah wrote:
 Level 20s, and even less, train them off with ease to allow their group mates easy pickins.

Personally, I wouldn't want to miss the fun of training guards away from an opponent that felt 'safe'. Its both historical and hysterical enjoyment.

"Keep Da Guards!"

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Old 09-27-2007, 12:48 PM   #42
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Bozidar wrote:
Tamarah wrote:
Is that a worthwhile reason to take away the only protection offered to the true newbs to our server and game in their very first foray into the world of PvP?  No.The guards only affect BEGINNERS PvP.  T2.  The very first PvP levels.

those beginners can just zone out.

and to be fair, any "beginer" standing behind the guards isn't going to live anyway, he has to zone or die.  i could ranged attack most newbs to death.. on my 13 brigand.

The guards, in Commonlands (including the mysteriously aggro QEYNOSIAN guards by WNC), Antonica, and DLW, the guards provide very little to the gaming experience.

Do you think that the new players to our game/ruleset, stepping out into their very first real PvP zone, as a level 10 toon should be afforded a tiny bit of protection when they are within 30 meters of their home city front gates?I understand that the professional T2 players dislike the guards getting in the way of their complete domination of the newbs, but do you not think that at the very lowest level of PvP, which is what T2 is, that includes level 10 players new to PvP, should have at least a crappy AI scripted guard standing guard for them at the gates of their own city?Yes, I know your not there for the newbs Bozidar.  You are after good fights with other twinked groups.  But the fact is that T2 PvP (Antonica/CL/DLW/GFay) encompasses they very beginners that we want to see more of.  It holds the players who can't even yet wear Blackened Iron or have their first M2 choice or their first group heal.  It is the first step into the PvP world.The guards only affect BEGINNERS PvP.Is it frustrating when non-beginners hide behind the guards?  Yes.  I understand why you want to PvP in Antonica.  Its a hotbed of activity.  But again, its a beginners' zone, and as such should have guards at the city gates.You even said that when you kill the guards all of the Qs disappear.  So is that what you want?  An empty Antonica?  If the guards were gone what would change?  You would have Qs zone hopping under immunity never engaging.  You would have level 14s camped on the bridge awaiting the newly leveled 10s to come meet their fate.  Same for the WFP gates.Sure the majority of 10 - 13s probably aren't newbs, just rerolls or new twinks.  But this is the spot where those new to this game and trying it out are going to experience PvP for the first time.  If they can't even be given the chance to stand on the other side of their city gate..........
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:23 PM   #43
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Thanks Boz, I appreciate the support.  It's true, I'm not chock full of fame.  I've gotten most of my fights soloing, I'd say over 90%, and luckily for me I'm not after a title (although I've got to admit that PvP gear looks gooooood).  By the way, the Adopt-a-Newbie program's starting to get some new folks asking for suggestions and help.  Woo-hoo!

To Bibe, let me clarify without taking anything personally.  Yeah, 10-12 people on Vent any given night, sometimes more depending on the night or what's going on.  Let's face it, there's not really a purpose to being in Vent if you're solo, so if I'm out farming or fighting alone, I stay off the comms.  Those are generally grouped.  A group halfway through OOB, Valdoon's, Nest or Achadechism isn't going to log and head over for T2 defense.  If somebody's solo and available, they might, at their own discretion, camp to a defense toon.  Or not.  I've never put any pressure on a guildie for anything, and I'm not about to start.  I brought up that the Pirates were at the gates, and not only did the guys know who I was talking about, but made the comments about your gear and tactics.  They weren't terrified.  It's more of a 'they ain't a pick-up group of guys in cheap gear, watch yourself'*.  As far as the hiding behind the guards for fame comment ... please.  You're in a full group of comparably levelled toons with some of the best geared players for that tier, yet when I, with my one level 23 mage, and a solo Paladin running alongside, decided to run for the guards rather than deal with your cohort, you snicker?  Not for nothing, but 3-1 odds against an all-titled experienced group, and you'd stand and fight?  I'll take those odds.  SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

* edit: you should take it as a compliment that enemy guilds not only know your crew by sight and name, but also know better than to mess with you on less-than-even grounds.

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Old 09-27-2007, 01:48 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:
You're in a full group of comparably levelled toons with some of the best geared players for that tier,

Just to clarify, none of us are uber-geared.  Most of us have pvp gear, which at lvl 20 is like 2 pieces.  I'm using an ash buckler, and quested gear on my inquis, and my zerker ain't twinked either.  We have some good collection items, but there's only one guy in our guild who's "uber" geared at 20, and that's Kujamo.

His choice is to lock at 20 forever, it's not a choice i'm comfortable with, so i'm not spending money/time on fabled gear for my guys there.  But good group balance, and good teamwork are > gear anyway.  But you already know that SMILEY

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Old 09-27-2007, 01:52 PM   #45
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Well, you guys hit like Fabled. SMILEY

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Old 09-27-2007, 01:56 PM   #46
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Tamarah wrote:
Do you think that the new players to our game/ruleset, stepping out into their very first real PvP zone, as a level 10 toon should be afforded a tiny bit of protection when they are within 30 meters of their home city front gates?I understand that the professional T2 players dislike the guards getting in the way of their complete domination of the newbs, but do you not think that at the very lowest level of PvP, which is what T2 is, that includes level 10 players new to PvP, should have at least a crappy AI scripted guard standing guard for them at the gates of their own city?Yes, I know your not there for the newbs Bozidar.  You are after good fights with other twinked groups.  But the fact is that T2 PvP (Antonica/CL/DLW/GFay) encompasses they very beginners that we want to see more of.  It holds the players who can't even yet wear Blackened Iron or have their first M2 choice or their first group heal.  It is the first step into the PvP world.The guards only affect BEGINNERS PvP.Is it frustrating when non-beginners hide behind the guards?  Yes.  I understand why you want to PvP in Antonica.  Its a hotbed of activity.  But again, its a beginners' zone, and as such should have guards at the city gates.You even said that when you kill the guards all of the Qs disappear.  So is that what you want?  An empty Antonica?  If the guards were gone what would change?  You would have Qs zone hopping under immunity never engaging.  You would have level 14s camped on the bridge awaiting the newly leveled 10s to come meet their fate.  Same for the WFP gates.Sure the majority of 10 - 13s probably aren't newbs, just rerolls or new twinks.  But this is the spot where those new to this game and trying it out are going to experience PvP for the first time.  If they can't even be given the chance to stand on the other side of their city gate..........

Those guards do nothing to protect those people.  Those people never MAKE it to the guard.  Even when they do, a ranged attack from a brigand (and i don't mean the combat art) is usually enough to kill them standing next to the guard.  Oh, they move back a ways? No problem.. go around.

Killing noobs is easy, and the people that grief them over and over again are the lowest of the low.  I had a talk with a guildy last night about it, because one of our guys was on his Q toon getting quests done while this guy was griefing him over and over.  It's just heinous.  I made it clear to all logged on that you kill a guy,and then leave him alone if you don't have a good reason to go back after him (and there are reasons).  But some lvl 12 untitled guy questing?  Please.. just leave em alone.  A lesson a good number of Qs need to learn as well.

As for beginners to pvp, i've seen em, i've killed em, and i've helped them.  Sometimes i'll even save some Q noob by killing the mob that's killing him.  IT's just a game, and he's not going to stick with it if he can't enjoy it.. so why harass him?  Often times after killing them, if i see them in the same spot i'll roll on by and /salute, or /bow to them quick, to let em know that i'm there, but not griefing them.  Gives them a sense, i hope, that not everyone is there to be a jerk.

It's a jungle out there.. and you're going to get killed.  But that doesn't mean we have to ruin each other's gaming expereinces with griefing.  So yeah.. i'm strongly against that, and the guards do virtually nothing to protect a noob that zoning out or camping won't do BETTER.

And again.. i DONT want to pvp in antonica! I hate the zone, to be honest.  I'd much rather pvp in DLW, or CL. But in DLW they just run for the zone line and in CL they hide behind GUARDS AGAIN!  And then they go home to antonica.. to meet up with their ole pals the guards at NQG.

I think maybe we'll have to take a couple of weeks off, and let folks forget about us, and start to feel safe in their own zones again.  We've beaten them like dogs so badly at this point that they're afraid to come out of their shells?  I just can't believe that's true.. but all evidence points to it.

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Old 09-27-2007, 01:57 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

Well, you guys hit like Fabled. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

dude.. we're PIRATES! SMILEY

I'm serious, we're gonna have to send the pressgang after you and drag you onboard..

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Old 09-27-2007, 04:29 PM   #48
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Heheh, I'm not evil.  Bloodthirsty, sure, but not evil.  SMILEY  Tell you what, though, the day a GM gets repeatedly rolled, griefed and teabagged by exiles, and suddenly the gates of Haven are opened up, I'll join you for a raid x's 8.  Good & Evil vs Bi.

Okay, maybe one ex-girlfriend might say I'm evil, but ...

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Old 09-27-2007, 06:04 PM   #49
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Bozidar, you say T2 has the most PvP in it, yet you constantly complain that you can't find good PvP fights in T2 because they all hide behind the guards...

If you want good PvP fights, un-twink your characters and solo in Antonica anyplace other than the gates, play a class that can stop runners, or just level up past 20. Is it really so painful to be able to use three more combat arts? If people like you who want good fights did that, you'd find better PvP fights in the other tiers. Most players in T2 only want to kill solo newbs, anyway, so why stick around with them?

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Old 09-27-2007, 09:59 PM   #50
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Bozidar wrote:

Those guards do nothing to protect those people.  Those people never MAKE it to the guard.  Even when they do, a ranged attack from a brigand (and i don't mean the combat art) is usually enough to kill them standing next to the guard.  Oh, they move back a ways? No problem.. go around.

Then exactly what is the issue with the guards being there?I agree that they are next to worthless.  But they do offer the newb at least a perceived sense of security and serve a much better welcome mat for those new to our game that zoning out of NQ directly into a sea of orange 2 meters outside their city.Bottom line, the guards don't affect T2 twink wars in a substantial degree at all, yet they do offer newbs the feeling that they can at least step out of their city and begin their quest into enjoying our game and becoming the foes and allies we will have tomorrow.
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:49 AM   #51
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Tamarah wrote:
Then exactly what is the issue with the guards being there?I agree that they are next to worthless.  But they do offer the newb at least a perceived sense of security and serve a much better welcome mat for those new to our game that zoning out of NQ directly into a sea of orange 2 meters outside their city.Bottom line, the guards don't affect T2 twink wars in a substantial degree at all, yet they do offer newbs the feeling that they can at least step out of their city and begin their quest into enjoying our game and becoming the foes and allies we will have tomorrow.

The issue is that the guards DO protect the hook shotting guard hugging non-title-deserving cowardly qs who huddle under them, with their shiney X2 tag not willing to come out and fight an even con'd six man team.

They affect it, you're wrong.  sorry.

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Old 09-28-2007, 01:50 AM   #52
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Hinosh wrote:

Bozidar, you say T2 has the most PvP in it, yet you constantly complain that you can't find good PvP fights in T2 because they all hide behind the guards...

If you want good PvP fights, un-twink your characters and solo in Antonica anyplace other than the gates, play a class that can stop runners, or just level up past 20. Is it really so painful to be able to use three more combat arts? If people like you who want good fights did that, you'd find better PvP fights in the other tiers. Most players in T2 only want to kill solo newbs, anyway, so why stick around with them?

Or, i could go out on the internet and make assumptions about what a person does with all of their character slots, and try to preach to them and teach them pvp!!

Hmm... do you think they have any openings?

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Old 09-28-2007, 04:34 AM   #53
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Bozidar wrote:
Muraazi wrote:
Just don't fight by the guards, is it really that hard...

You should read the whole thread, yes, it's that hard.

We can /sit at TS griff and gank solo's all day.  Not a huge deal.  Not a lot of fun either.

But when groups, and RAIDS of qs refuse to come out from behind guards, it spoils pvp.   We don't want easy solo kills. we want good pvp fights..

I read the whole thread. Just back off from gates for awhile and eventually they will come out. If not, well there isn't much difference from them being in qeynos now is there.

 Bad analogy time. If anyone has ever played CoH pvp, there is a power call teleport foe. It teleports an enemy to you, There are drones (guards) in the safe spots (bases) that insta kill you. People would TP foe into those drones just to get rid of an opponent. People complain about it all the time. But the simple fact is stay out of range and you can't be TPed.

 Albeit this situation is alittle different, the principal is still there. Back off and they will either come out or not. If not then they obviously aren't looking for a fight/afk/afraid/whatever.

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Old 09-28-2007, 10:01 AM   #54
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Muraazi wrote:

I read the whole thread. Just back off from gates for awhile and eventually they will come out. If not, well there isn't much difference from them being in qeynos now is there.

 Bad analogy time. If anyone has ever played CoH pvp, there is a power call teleport foe. It teleports an enemy to you, There are drones (guards) in the safe spots (bases) that insta kill you. People would TP foe into those drones just to get rid of an opponent. People complain about it all the time. But the simple fact is stay out of range and you can't be TPed.

 Albeit this situation is alittle different, the principal is still there. Back off and they will either come out or not. If not then they obviously aren't looking for a fight/afk/afraid/whatever.

We've sat there, backed off the gates, for 30 minutes and more.  Waiting for them.  Alls they do is call in more and more help.

They don't come out until they have an X3 or an X4.

Guards affect the game in a negative way.

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Old 09-28-2007, 10:16 AM   #55
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Bozidar wrote:
Muraazi wrote:

I read the whole thread. Just back off from gates for awhile and eventually they will come out. If not, well there isn't much difference from them being in qeynos now is there.

 Bad analogy time. If anyone has ever played CoH pvp, there is a power call teleport foe. It teleports an enemy to you, There are drones (guards) in the safe spots (bases) that insta kill you. People would TP foe into those drones just to get rid of an opponent. People complain about it all the time. But the simple fact is stay out of range and you can't be TPed.

 Albeit this situation is alittle different, the principal is still there. Back off and they will either come out or not. If not then they obviously aren't looking for a fight/afk/afraid/whatever.

We've sat there, backed off the gates, for 30 minutes and more.  Waiting for them.  Alls they do is call in more and more help.

They don't come out until they have an X3 or an X4.

Guards affect the game in a negative way.

Level up then? To levels where there actually are no guards to hide behind?The guards have always been used like that. And truth be told, should be used like that, they are guards, there to protect their faction. I actually think the guards should even be social with the faction they are there to protect. Also, change all immunities to social guards instead. No more of that [Removed for Content] eternal immunity.
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Old 09-28-2007, 10:28 AM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:
Level up then? To levels where there actually are no guards to hide behind?
Only so much time in the day.  As I said above, a bit sarcastically, don't presume to know what i do with all 7 of my slots.. *shrug*
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Old 09-28-2007, 10:44 AM   #57
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Bozidar wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Level up then? To levels where there actually are no guards to hide behind?
Only so much time in the day.  As I said above, a bit sarcastically, don't presume to know what i do with all 7 of my slots.. *shrug*
then stop bithcing about guards doing what they are supposed to do?the guards at NQ gates are easily pulled away, or circumvented if you dont feel like pulling them away. all the other guards in the zone, SQ gate, the keeps, are easily pulled away. If you cant do it, then perhaps you need to figure out how. Its easy.
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Old 09-28-2007, 11:02 AM   #58
Bozidar

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[email protected] wrote:
then stop bithcing about guards doing what they are supposed to do?the guards at NQ gates are easily pulled away, or circumvented if you dont feel like pulling them away. all the other guards in the zone, SQ gate, the keeps, are easily pulled away. If you cant do it, then perhaps you need to figure out how. Its easy.

Thx for the advice.

p.s. this thread was started by someone who wanted more guards all over norrath

p.p.s. If I was a noob who tried to pull the guards off on my lvl 20 toon when a Raid X2 standing under their skirts, or who thought it was a good idea to stand CLOSE to the guards to finish off players who run there when they get their shins kicked really hard, then I wouldn't have a problem with Qs not coming out to fight me.  I'd be an easy kill and they'd enjoy laughing as the guards do all their work for them.  It's a good mechanic for new players to get some saftey, but an abused mechanic for cowardly noskill experienced players to take advantage of people who actually WANT to pvp. 

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Old 09-28-2007, 11:16 AM   #59
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just skimming through and noticed few people talking about lvl locking now.. i want stronger guards to stop that and well the only 2 things you can do to avoid dying atm is... Lock XP quest die 500 times so you are strong enough to kill 1/10 people OR lvl up with 4 deaths(29 inquis never locked 20 AA 4 deaths, 24 assa locked from 10 30 AA 200 deaths) Just wanted to know why the [Removed for Content] would you lock your XP to get aa to avoid dying ? when you can lvl up and avoid the other twinks
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Old 09-28-2007, 11:30 AM   #60
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othera1 wrote:
just skimming through and noticed few people talking about lvl locking now..i want stronger guards to stop that and well the only 2 things you can do to avoid dying atm is... Lock XP quest die 500 times so you are strong enough to kill 1/10 people OR lvl up with 4 deaths(29 inquis never locked 20 AA 4 deaths, 24 assa locked from 10 30 AA 200 deaths)Just wanted to know why the [I cannot control my vocabulary] would you lock your XP to get aa to avoid dying ? when you can lvl up and avoid the other twinks
lol, i love it when folks think that leveling up helps you avoid twinks.
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