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Old 09-15-2011, 05:34 PM   #61
Onoddil

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Tbh, keep changes that are currently on test but: add spell ma to the two items in the STA line as well as melee ma; increase csong duration to 20s and base to 5-7 mins; add potency to potm; add slight combat skills to daeli's and slight casting skills to death's door; add something similar to the new dirge myth proc such as cb/reuse to our myth proc; return overture to its original state and make painful the blue with the increase in damage (mitigated on test, obviously); remove extra agi from raxxyl's and give JC *some* immunity because that's a bit silly imo :p. Either that, or keep the dirge myth proc as it is because nerfing is worse than buffing/fixing, and add max spell damage to ours in a similar vein. Just do the same for each of the two subclasses and it's fine...

EDIT: @Buffrat, if you notice my well thought out post only contains one thing that I'd like to see to buff personal dps... A new myth proc. Our one does 400dps. Everything else is just extra utility that accidentally buffs us (see potency on potm). I even suggested removing something that does not fit with the "theme" of Troubadours. Please don't /rage.

Ono

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:37 PM   #62
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Lcneed wrote:

I am hoping troubie gets a huge boost, because that will give me an option to betray now that they nerfed dirge mythical into oblivion on test...

That's a joke I assume. Compared to the troub myth, the dirge myth is probably the most overpowered myth in the game.

Fixing it - finally - is not a nerf.

And having seen about 10x as many troubs betray to dirge as going the other way, that should tell that something is wrong somewhere.

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:42 PM   #63
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One last thing, any chance of changing the myth effect to Crit Bonus rather than Crit Chance.  Given the changes and the new dirge myth, I think that's fair.

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:44 PM   #64
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Troub myth was better than dirge myth.

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:46 PM   #65
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DeciimusTiger wrote:

Also - is there something in the works for our class specific gear sets? Last I noticed - most of it doesnt address any of our spell casting time, reuse, dmg, etc...

wazzup with that?

I don't think anyone gets it.  Troubs are scouts first and foremost.  Don't change the gear!

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:46 PM   #66
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Troub myth was better than dirge myth.

Ha Ha...that's funny!

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:49 PM   #67
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tfetterman wrote:

DeciimusTiger wrote:

Also - is there something in the works for our class specific gear sets? Last I noticed - most of it doesnt address any of our spell casting time, reuse, dmg, etc...

wazzup with that?

I don't think anyone gets it.  Troubs are scouts first and foremost.  Don't change the gear!

Dude, 90% of our buffs are directed toward spells & casters. Our biggest hitters other than straight melee are Spells... so on what planet does it make sense to have combat art mods on our gear?

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:07 PM   #68
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Dirges buff themselves, yes. Troubs buff their group infinitely more than dirges do, imo.

You guys spend too much time directly comparing troub personal dps vs dirge personal dps. In short these changes will make troubs a lot better than dirges for raids, but I know you guys won't complain. You obviously couldn't handle being pretty balanced to dirges (boo hoo you did 40-50k less dps than dirges but made up for it by buffing other people with more than 40-50k worth of buffs), and need to be the best at personal dps, best at buffing, and best at debuffing.

In theory, I would agree here.  IMO both bards are SUPPORT classes and should make support thier number 1 function.  However, there are SO many people that have turned this game into a pure parsing numbers game and you have some (fools imo) that come down on the bards because they feel that thier parse is not good enough.  They rarely stop to think that THEY would not be getting those numbers w/o us.  I dont advocate a bard just standing there of course; do as much DPS as you can without neglecting to buff the people with the REAL dps.  And by the same token, dont worry about what your bard is parsing, you just worry about your dps and be thankful you have that support class to help you.

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:07 PM   #69
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tfetterman wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Troub myth was better than dirge myth.

Ha Ha...that's funny!

I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:08 PM   #70
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It would be great if you could update "Raxxyl's Rousing Tune"

Before Int and Wis become useless, it was giving us as a caster benefits as well.

Now it does not. (well tiny with Mitigation)

Maybe it can boost all stats instead of Wis and Int?

Since it's take concentration slot it should be something worth turning on. Now I don't use it when soloing and I don't us it in groups either.

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:14 PM   #71
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This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50281...post_id=5631108 Removed at poster's request
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Old 09-15-2011, 07:18 PM   #72
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

tfetterman wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Troub myth was better than dirge myth.

Ha Ha...that's funny!

I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.

Are you joking or what? Dirges get 10% CA troubs to spells. raidwide to cob/potm. And last effect max damage to melee vs small damage proc and 15% crit. How was the troub myth better again?

Dirge myth was op and facts still stands that its on of the best mythical buffs out there if it stays as it is on test. But this is a troub thread so pls try and keep the dirge complains out of it.

Spell DB attack instead of the CC porc and increas it to around 30% or something. Some changes look good really some are as xelgad said minor. Agi on raxxyl's wont do much tho still something for the other scouts in the group for the guilds that have a birg or what ever in the mage group. I do agree aswell with boosting the groups surviveability abit would help both if you run with a crusader or just the mages in the group. So that would be cool really.

Power... well to be honest sure its nice to counter the coecer since the illu is abit weaker to power feed but i rather would see them boosting the illu power feed instead of giving it to troubs.

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Old 09-15-2011, 08:26 PM   #73
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What i have to say might make most troubs angry.

Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. 

As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.

Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.

Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.

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Old 09-15-2011, 10:43 PM   #74
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Netty wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

tfetterman wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Troub myth was better than dirge myth.

Ha Ha...that's funny!

I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.

Are you joking or what? Dirges get 10% CA troubs to spells. raidwide to cob/potm. And last effect max damage to melee vs small damage proc and 15% crit. How was the troub myth better again?

Dirge myth was op and facts still stands that its on of the best mythical buffs out there if it stays as it is on test. But this is a troub thread so pls try and keep the dirge complains out of it.

Spell DB attack instead of the CC porc and increas it to around 30% or something. Some changes look good really some are as xelgad said minor. Agi on raxxyl's wont do much tho still something for the other scouts in the group for the guilds that have a birg or what ever in the mage group. I do agree aswell with boosting the groups surviveability abit would help both if you run with a crusader or just the mages in the group. So that would be cool really.

Power... well to be honest sure its nice to counter the coecer since the illu is abit weaker to power feed but i rather would see them boosting the illu power feed instead of giving it to troubs.

Because 10% potency to spells for an illy, warlock, wizard, troub, and sometimes 3rd mage is worth a LOT more than 10% potency to a fighter, dirge, and swash.

Like. 50k vs 10k.

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Old 09-15-2011, 10:49 PM   #75
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Any chance in charm duration being increased to something usable again?

It used to be possible to use it to solo some content, but since it was nerfed it's been practically useless.And troubs need all the help they can get with soloing.

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Old 09-16-2011, 05:42 AM   #76
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Countersong has had its immunity removed.  It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the targets AE Auto Attack Chance as well as ability damage.
> Not a bad change. Wish countersong was more useful than a 1-time-deal per mob but I guess if it were any better it could be abused by stacking tons of troubs? :/
Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer.
> Doesn't seem like it's really going to change what we do with Jcap much anyways. Jcap self. Choose 2 targets, jcap them. Repeat.
Thunderous Overture now has a 10 second reuse but is a point blank area effect ability that affects up to 8 targets.
> Not so sure about this one. Tbh I don't use it as often as I should because I run 4 sec weapons and if I'm not careful I delay my autoattack. I guess it's now more useful for ROing on encounters so this is one of those things I'll probably like using when I get used to it.
Sandra's Deafening Strike now restores some of the power it stole to the troubador.
> Nice, I particularly like this change.
Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse."  Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time.  This does not transfer threat from fighters
> Also think this is a great change.
And the rest of the changes are nice and all....but....
1) I was really hoping to see a revamped myth buff. There's just something about the 15% crit chance buff and minor damage proc that just doesn't sit right with me. If this was the only thing that was changed, I think alot of people would be somewhat satisfied - just make it more useful in the current expac. For me it could be anything, power proc, minor spell double attack proc, group elemental/arcane ward proc, flurry proc, minor group pot, minor group cb, cb blahblahblah or maybe an offensive proc like a debuff. Something cool might be a proc that blocks aoes so that the better troubs can time it with turnstrike and bladedance to maximize dps. :/
2) Energizing ballad. Is it just me or do I only get to cast this once, maybe twice a fight? I don't think reuse affects it's 3 min cooldown too. It just seems so bad for an endline. Imagine if it were on a 1 min cooldown or maybe 30 seconds? I don't think it'd be overpowered as it's single target and it'd be a much more useful utility that'd be fun to use. It would also make us more wanted in groups if chanters are in short supply.
Aside from the potential changes, here's my real complaint:
This might be long winded but I want to get it out. Troubs are fairly balanced as a utility class as is - they lack personal dps but add more to mage group dps and the raid as a whole. Alot of people have mentioned this and I think the real problem is that troubs feel invisible. As an example: the top dps get praised for parses, the top healers get praised for cures and survivability, etcetc. Alot of these classes have ways to standout from the crowd - keeping multiple groups high in power, good and fast ressing, whatever.
So then how do you tell a good troub from a bad troub? To boost the parse of my mage group all I really do is time my deadly dance and jcap with timewarp and push out some VC's. The rest is just rotating the jcap and dpsing. Sadly on some fights all I get to do is sit back and eat a sandwich while pressing 4 buttons to dps at range because my dps isn't worth how much the mob would heal for if I missed an aoe block and died. It's really not that hard to play the utility role and to be honest no one cares. My mage wants to keep me happy so I can continue to let him parse, but when we progress in hard mode no one thinks "oh thank god for that troub."
I feel like dirges get by because they can put out good dps while ressing. They also get stuff like sonic barrier and confront fear and some fights are dependent on getting those resses down. If people notice, they also get a psuedo cure and a heal that comes in handy sometimes. Troubs? Less dps than dirges, don't really contribute to survivability aside from arcane/elemental ward/cures. Even when I parse within 5k to a better geared dirge (~130k to 135k), no one cares. If I were playing a dirge I would have parsed more, but in this case, the dirge still outparsed me and that's all they can see. Our single target power flow can't be used much and countersong is a one time use. The sad truth is, when it really comes down to it, people rate how well I play my troub by how much dps I put out personally and less by how well I help my mage. VC, good aoe blocks, and good usage of god spells is all that can make a troub stand out currently. In my opinion, the real solution to this problem is not to make troubs overpowered dpsers or give them a blue aoe or buff their damage or nerf the dirge myth but to give them ways to play to the class so that they are more recognizable for the utility they provide. For starters there's countersong, energizing ballad, and the maintained buffs but none of these really seem to stand out from what I can tell. I do think the hate transfer is a good start but I'm not sure it's enough.
TLDR: No one cares about the troub except for the mage/scouts that get boosts to their dps and even then it doesn't take a genius to figure out how. Also, no one will ever praise you for your dps given the other players you know are competent. Until we get a unique class-defining tool or our dps skyrockets, I don't feel troubs will ever feel satisfying to play.
Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that changes are being made but I don't think this update has really touched the root of the problem.
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:48 AM   #77
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justanotherplaya wrote:

Thunderous Overture now has a 10 second reuse but is a point blank area effect ability that affects up to 8 targets.
> Not so sure about this one. Tbh I don't use it as often as I should because I run 4 sec weapons and if I'm not careful I delay my autoattack. I guess it's now more useful for ROing on encounters so this is one of those things I'll probably like using when I get used to it.

Just wanted to say, I use 4s weapons as well, but I manage Dancing Blade + Thunderous Overture between two autoattacks without problems and TO is usually my first or second highest dps contributor of my active spells and abilities. It took some readjusting to get to that point, as I thought much like you before, but I found it to be well worth it. Changing TO to a 10s recast PBAoE is a nerf on single target fights. Which the majority of raid named fights tend to be.

There's no reason why they couldn't change Painful Lamentations into a PBAoE spell instead and leave Thunderous Overture as it is today. Painful Lamentations is already multi-target, so it'd make a lot more sense to change. And PL is a spell that could really use some changes. It's slow cast, slow recast, low damage. This is the spell they should be changing.

As for your comment about troubs feeling invisible.. I hear ya. Perhaps the change to Tap Essence will help. A boost of the cure chance (how about 15-30% chance to cure an entire group, in addition to the 25% chance of curing a person?) or ward size, or resist numbers of the resist buffs might help a little, so the raid would actually notice a difference between having a troub in raid buffing those resists, and not having one.

Tl;dr: Thunderous Overture is fine as it is on Live today. Painful Lamentations should be made into a PBAoE instead. Full group cure chance for resist buffs?

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Old 09-16-2011, 08:14 AM   #78
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Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.

I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.

I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.

I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. 

I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.

Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.

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Old 09-16-2011, 09:18 AM   #79
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.

I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.

I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.

I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. 

I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.

Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.

I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.

Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.

UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.

If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?

All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.

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Old 09-16-2011, 09:27 AM   #80
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justanotherplaya wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.

I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.

I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.

I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. 

I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.

Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.

I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.

Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.

UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.

If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?

All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.

What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.

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Old 09-16-2011, 09:39 AM   #81
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[email protected]_old wrote:

justanotherplaya wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.

I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.

I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.

I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. 

I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.

Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.

I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.

Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.

UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.

If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?

All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.

What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.

Sorry if I offended you. It just didn't seem like UT/BC was really that hard of a decision. You get your raid group and there's maybe 2 options for who gets the buff and the other gets TC. As for jcap/gravitas, I always thought bards were a utility before dps and that's where jcap/gravitas comes in. If they didn't have that we'd just be playing assassins with less dps and more group wide buffs. Iono, it just seemed like based on your complaints you'd rather play a tier 1 dps. I'm not too sure I can understand your complaint about clicking either for troubs. It seems like you're focused on avoiding favoritism, which in my opinion, is easily solved by just asking the highest dps what he/she wants.

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Old 09-16-2011, 09:52 AM   #82
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justanotherplaya wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

justanotherplaya wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.

I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.

I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.

I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. 

I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.

Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.

I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.

Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.

UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.

If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?

All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.

What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.

Sorry if I offended you. It just didn't seem like UT/BC wasn't really that hard of a decision. You get your raid group and there's usually maybe 2 options for who gets the buff. As jcap/gravitas, I always thought bards were a utility before dps and that's where jcap/gravitas comes in. If they didn't have that we'd just be playing assassins with less dps and more group wide buffs. Iono, it just seemed like based on your complaints you'd rather play a tier 1 dps.

We are scouts. We dont just show up to the raid, buff people and go afk. When I play my dirge I am SO busy in raids that I have to prioritize whats more important. I even have to use third party software just to maximize my potential. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to focus on other things and still be just as effective and desired in raids. Anybody who says either bard is not incredibly busy during raids has obviously never raided a bard or played a horrible bard. Gravitas and Jcap along with debuffs can be a full time job all by themselves. Honestly I get to the point where I just pick a couple healers for gravitas and a couple mages for jcap. Seriously, the expectation of casting jcap and gravitas to me is the worst part of playing bard and the reason I would LOVE to see them passive. It's wishful thinking and will never happen.

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Old 09-16-2011, 10:01 AM   #83
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I've played both classes in raid. If you're talking about dirge, I think they have plenty to do. Last expac I was parsing top 5 in my guild (which isn't that great considering we had 2-3 good dps that time around 30-40kish in T3 gear) while sonic barrier/beating ppl to res/spot healing/keeping a macro to cure my healer from stun/stifle/gravitas rotation. Yeah I admit it's not easy trying to time your dps with temp buffs while eyeing the raid window and dropping death prevents and heals while parsing well and getting ready to res a group that's near death. I still did it just fine. That's not the problem though.

This is a troub issue. And if you ask me what I do as a troub, I jcap/deadly dance for my main dps on time warp which is about 20-30 seconds into the fight, rotate the jcap afterwards on 7 targets, occasionally power regen if I see a chanter dead and a group that needs power, VC before my first jcap on myself is up, and parse. If you're telling me that's hard to do, I don't know what to say. It might be hard to do perfectly and maximize the heck out of that VC and the temp buffs that go up - but it's not hard to play decently.  I don't really even have to look at my jcaps, I just hit each one in order and I already know for example that a time warp is coming on jcap 2 and jcap 4. Again, if people want their jcaps, you have timing slots and you make them work with the jcaps that you can put out. Aside from that, it's every 15-20 seconds cast the next jcap. Fire and forget really. You may delay a jcap a bit to meet up with timewarp but I don't see how it's hard? Seriously though, maybe I'm missing something and you could give me some pro tips.

EDIT: Sorry. Anyways, this is all pretty much off topic. I disagree that making some of the troub buffs into groupwide buffs would make the class more fun to play though.

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Old 09-16-2011, 10:53 AM   #84
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xdeadumx wrote:

What i have to say might make most troubs angry.

Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. 

As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.

Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.

Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.

These are horrible changes and make me glad you aren't a troub dev.

a) Poisons are useless, and have been since around EoF times. Check your predators/rogues dps from them, and you'll see they don't even do 2k.

b) If I wanted to sit at range, I'd roll a ranger. (Granted I mainchanged to ranger a few weeks back, but still....). Troubs should be meleeing the mob just as much as dirges, and 95% of fights, mages are meleeing the mob or within a 10m range anyway.

c) Increasing group dps - I think most people in this game would agree that troubs give a lot to a group. That isnt the problem any more. The problem is self dps. You could park a troub on AF on the mage group, and nobody would really complain. The thing that needs changing, is the 'Fun Factor' of troubs.

Other changes suggested, changing Jcap to group only? Thats a silly change, most mages don't need it any more (apart from 10 CB, not make or break), so you'd just be making it useless.

More PBAOEs? For all the hundreds of fights with lots of adds in raiding any more?

As I said in my previous post. These changes are a start, but they aren't going to make people enjoy troubs any more, or want to start playing them again. The Enjoyment factor of a troub is low, and thats what needs fixing.

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Old 09-16-2011, 12:09 PM   #85
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What Errror said (again; stop being reasonable and insightful damnit!).

The changes on Test minus CSong and Overture are fine. I'd say the Raxxyl's and Jester's Cap changes are unnecessary (drop the agi from Raxxyl's and add 45-60s immunity on JC imo), but neither affects me terribly that I'll lose sleep over it. It'd be better if CSong was 20s duration and 6min base reuse, and Overture was untouched and they just made Painful the blue, but it's not the end of the world.

However, these are BALANCES. Yes, I can no longer comment on Dirges being vastly better then Troubs due to their OP myth proc because it got changed on Test, but it's still a million times better than what we get (which is basically a 400dps proc). Therefore we'll have to wait until feedback from Test rolls in and we get a sense of how the two classes compare once again. But, imo, Troubs still need some additional things over and above mere balancing.

My favourite is still adding Spell MA to the STA line, which buffs us (given that auto aside most of our dps is spells) and the mages we're supposed to be buffing. That, combined with adding 25% cb/reuse (or something, similar to the Dirge proc but tailored to Troubs), combined with the current changes and fixing CSong/Overture might well be enough imo. Dirges would no longer be doing a lot more dps without requiring much effort (but good ones will still do well, obviously), and Troubs get a slight buff and add more utility (which is, after all, our main priority).

Ono

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Old 09-16-2011, 12:29 PM   #86
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When are these changes going to test?

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Old 09-16-2011, 12:58 PM   #87
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Hermmit wrote:

When are these changes going to test?

2014 Most likely.

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Old 09-16-2011, 03:50 PM   #88
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In theory these changes sound great, but I'd prefer to test them before giving my opinions.  What works in theory could be terrible in reality.  On the other hand it could be as good or better than it sounds.  I just don't know. 

Still looking forward to testing them.

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Old 09-16-2011, 07:13 PM   #89
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Errror wrote:

xdeadumx wrote:

What i have to say might make most troubs angry.

Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. 

As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.

Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.

Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.

These are horrible changes and make me glad you aren't a troub dev.

a) Poisons are useless, and have been since around EoF times. Check your predators/rogues dps from them, and you'll see they don't even do 2k.

b) If I wanted to sit at range, I'd roll a ranger. (Granted I mainchanged to ranger a few weeks back, but still....). Troubs should be meleeing the mob just as much as dirges, and 95% of fights, mages are meleeing the mob or within a 10m range anyway.

c) Increasing group dps - I think most people in this game would agree that troubs give a lot to a group. That isnt the problem any more. The problem is self dps. You could park a troub on AF on the mage group, and nobody would really complain. The thing that needs changing, is the 'Fun Factor' of troubs.

Other changes suggested, changing Jcap to group only? Thats a silly change, most mages don't need it any more (apart from 10 CB, not make or break), so you'd just be making it useless.

More PBAOEs? For all the hundreds of fights with lots of adds in raiding any more?

As I said in my previous post. These changes are a start, but they aren't going to make people enjoy troubs any more, or want to start playing them again. The Enjoyment factor of a troub is low, and thats what needs fixing.

If i was in a high end raiding guild i might agree.. however just the AA poison we get in class tree is 2% of my parse when im parsing 55k. I feel like poisions would add another 3% to my parse, since they are still adding 1-2% to the sins in my guild parsing 100-120k.

As well, being in a non high end raiding guild, the casters still stand at max range on most fights with their 150cm.

This game isn't designed strictly for high end raiding guilds. Which is shown by all the adjustments to herioc content.

Again... lets change it to non hard mode raiding guild... none of the casters i have grouped with or raided with are at cap. so jcap for group would be a nice benefit. I would suggest adding 5-10% spell double attack to it.

Now.. sounds like what you are looking for is a assissinate type ability that makes you feel good inside and to brag about. OH SNAP! i just hit with my super sonic blast note for 850k... WOOT!

I just went back to troub a couple months ago, for the guild, from being a dirge for over a year. I have found myself lacking without the constant chaos of a dirge in a progression raid force. Jcap rotation is hardly a distraction from dps abilities. So to be honest having more shortterm clickies to rotate/keep track of that increase group dps would be nice.

If you want to self dps... roll a sin. Ya, you like it... It's ok.. beastlords will wtfpwn you anyways.

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Old 09-16-2011, 08:56 PM   #90
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xdeadumx wrote:

If i was in a high end raiding guild i might agree.. however just the AA poison we get in class tree is 2% of my parse when im parsing 55k. I feel like poisions would add another 3% to my parse, since they are still adding 1-2% to the sins in my guild parsing 100-120k.

As well, being in a non high end raiding guild, the casters still stand at max range on most fights with their 150cm.

This game isn't designed strictly for high end raiding guilds. Which is shown by all the adjustments to herioc content.

Again... lets change it to non hard mode raiding guild... none of the casters i have grouped with or raided with are at cap. so jcap for group would be a nice benefit. I would suggest adding 5-10% spell double attack to it.

Now.. sounds like what you are looking for is a assissinate type ability that makes you feel good inside and to brag about. OH SNAP! i just hit with my super sonic blast note for 850k... WOOT!

I just went back to troub a couple months ago, for the guild, from being a dirge for over a year. I have found myself lacking without the constant chaos of a dirge in a progression raid force. Jcap rotation is hardly a distraction from dps abilities. So to be honest having more shortterm clickies to rotate/keep track of that increase group dps would be nice.

If you want to self dps... roll a sin. Ya, you like it... It's ok.. beastlords will wtfpwn you anyways.

Well I think poisons are ok but pretty unnecessary and I'm not sure I'd really notice if I had them or not.

Casters do stand at range but I think part of being the scout class is you have to learn to joust well and time aoe blocks.

Also about the reuse of casters, my raid is geared out in EZmode gear with 2 HM armor pieces and pretty much every caster is capped on casting speed and reuse. All they really want out of Jcap is the 10% crit bonus. The reuse really just helps me and the assassin/scout that I use it on. I expect with the current stat inflation, people are going to be capped out on reuse from just legendaries next expac anyways. This has been mentioned previously but having Jcap not be a group wide buff allows us to be put into a mage group while buffing the assassin in the tank group. <-This is huge and why Jcap shouldn't be changed.

I pretty much agree that playing a dirge is a huge difference from troub in raid. I basically fall asleep on progression fights because my raid won't let me risk going in and I have nothing to do since I'm sitting at max range auto attacking with my bow. Debuff. Jcap. Range autoattack.

This idea might be completely stupid but I just wanted to put this idea out there anyways. Maybe we can get a toggle ability added to our myth buff that makes our HO into a solo HO and changes the attributes/way it works. Make it able to perform different abilities by pressing CA/Spells in a certain order (something like CA/Spell/CA or CA/CA/Spell or Spell/Spell/CA). And then add several buffs that would last a minute and limit it to only having 1 buff at a time so you can't stack them all. This would make it so every minute we're inclined to HO and put up the right buff or override our current buff with something new to adapt to the situation. Ideally, the buffs would be group wide and have some useful effects: a massive arcane/elemental ward, group potency/crit bonus, 1 time proc group aoe block (this might be broken), group power proc. In the case of the ward/aoe block, you'd want to HO more often in order to keep the buff refreshed where as the group potency and power proc could be used ideally in other situations. This would definitely make things a little more interesting for us but I do realize it'd probably take a lot more programming anyways. Further benefits is if it does work out it'd be easier to implement new content that would be interesting and fun to play with for bards.

On the side note, the other thing I've been wondering is what happened to itemization for bards? Instruments/drum of the ethernaut sort of things and collecting all the different effects to maximize your buffs. Man if they could bring that back and give unique weapons for bards like they do for bruiser/monks it would be so cool. I for one would not be complaining if these sort of things dropped off our current raid content. SMILEY

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