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Old 08-15-2012, 02:32 AM   #1
BlueEternal

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Seriously, you need to do some major damage control. This update just crippled priests. Shamans are doing fine, it's rough, but they can manage. Druids/Clerics need some help. The change never should have made it live without reducing DPS. You JUST buffed scouts, which is resulting in predators still doing 20k+ CA's, rogues doing a fair amount of damage over time and sorceror's are still rediculous in both damage and survivability. You really need to reevaluate some of the changes you are pushing forward to live.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:32 AM   #2
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This nerf was some sort of joke. Reactives tick for a Max of 2.6k on a crit. Group heals hitting for 8.6k-14k Group heals on a crit depending on class. It's a joke no matter what you do as a healer now once you blow your bigger CDs you will die to any organized group or their group mates will.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:51 AM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:

*Please do not quote forum violations*

Hit the nail on the head^!!!

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Old 08-15-2012, 02:28 PM   #4
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I gave up on organized pvp (WF or BG's) as the dev team has consistently shown they cant buy a clue and continue to listen to the same small vocal minority on the forums that brought such great things like the cure nerfs, the push to nerf procs/immunities/you name in all in yet another failed effort to "balance" pvp.

Protip: If the devs intend to constantly "try" and tinker and fail with pvp ruleset try rolling a toon on naggy to max level and heres a really radical proposal...try doing real pvp instead of the sanitized beta buffed level 20 toon in darklight woods.  They may not get it or win much but they will deffinately see where they screwed the pooch as it were previously

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Old 08-15-2012, 04:36 PM   #5
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The problem with heals is they never really did alot to being with, If you look at the parses of most healers, alot of the heals are from abilities that have nothing to do with actual skill of the user.

almost 19k hps after the crit patch.....10k heals are from me being hit by the other team, another 2700 is from a nox ward that is always up.....my highest actual heal is from ancestral that resets almost every grp ward.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:45 PM   #6
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need a bigger boost to heals in PVP imo.   after the patch healers are dropping like flys, not fun. 

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Old 08-15-2012, 08:24 PM   #7
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The problem is, and this especially applies to non-Shamans..

All these big DPS burst abilities hit for 15-20k. Even my lesser stealth attacks hit for 10k+ on my Assassin.

How much does a single target heal go off for? Maybe 5-7K, if you're a Cleric? Less if you're someone else.And non-crit? Pathetic amounts of healing.

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Old 08-16-2012, 02:21 AM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

The problem is, and this especially applies to non-Shamans..

All these big DPS burst abilities hit for 15-20k. Even my lesser stealth attacks hit for 10k+ on my Assassin.

How much does a single target heal go off for? Maybe 5-7K, if you're a Cleric? Less if you're someone else.And non-crit? Pathetic amounts of healing.

Well its been said the pvp dev remarked on test that he wanted to stop pvp fights from lasting over 5 mins...nerfing healers will enable this greatly.  I guess too many dps classes possibly huffed and puffed they could kill a group in under 30 secs...well shucks...hes your healer nerf.

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Old 08-16-2012, 03:49 AM   #9
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The issue is more a fact that resists dont exist anymore, intentional or a bug who knows, it just is like that so, unless they fix that issue it will be basically impossible for non caster classes to play catch up all the time and yes already people are leaving the game. Nice try pitty you messed it up once again

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Old 08-16-2012, 05:29 AM   #10
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the reason i quit doing bg is because of the high token cost. if this healer nerf is true there is no way i would play again. a strong dpser with good support can do amazing things, but a strong healer apparently isnt designed to keep his group alive. thats not being amazing, thats planned obsolescence. if death is on the menu, healers shouldnt be in pvp period. they would need a pvp stance that gives them 50 cb, then doubles all their cb. like reckless for healers.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:01 AM   #11
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Honestly pvp'ing several times since the patch, i think the patch is fine. I've grouped with each type of healer since the patch, and i've fought them all as well, and i think they're more balanced than they were before, much more. I think druids are still a little eh, but clerics and shaman do fine.

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Old 08-16-2012, 07:07 AM   #12
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it's not that bad. templars and shamans are still fine, can't speak for other healer classes

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Old 08-16-2012, 08:23 AM   #13
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I play a range of healers in the BGs and yes all were effected by this nerf. If you think Templars are fine, then your templar must have max AA and max BG gear and level 92. ( mine is not )

Thanks SOE for giving me reason to hang up my healer class in BG's. Its hard enough to find healers in a BG to begin with.

Way to think ahead. IF you plan on changing the classes in such a way that it really makes it hard on a class; have your dev;s play that class and not just have them playing scouts and mages.

I am going to go roll a mage.

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Old 08-16-2012, 01:03 PM   #14
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As a warden in T2 pvp gear and decent although not great jewelry I just did sme BGs after patch and it was not a nice place to be. The amount of damage far surpasses the amount of available heals. With healers being somewhat rare in BGs we will see fewer of them after this nerf. I may attempt to make up the difference with adornments we shall see.

My choices are: heal myself or my group or remove dots but in BGs it is not possible to do them all. Dots are way out of hand. Even spec'ed fully for cures at times my group can have 10-15 dots on them and that is not an exageration. Edit: that is per character, not 10-15 spread over the group.

SOE please reconsider your nerf. Healers help make a 5 sec pvp fight last longer when skill and talent can really show when those with pots and symbols and totems show their skill. Nobody really wants a 5 sec fight where the OP class of the month wins everytime except, of course, the OP class. The longer the fight the more people talk about it afterwards and the more people enjoy it IMO. Keep the adreniline and release the 5 sec fights. When people speak about great pvp fights others listen and start pvp'ing. Nobody wants to gear up a toon just to die in 5 sec. They then stop pvp'ing or run from every fight again IMO. How seldom do you see anyone post a 5 sec video on Youtube? When people search for pvp everquest do they get a 5 sec fight or a 5 min fight? Which do you think will make them want to join EQ2 PVP?

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Old 08-16-2012, 02:09 PM   #15
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If you have a good team then yeah, you're fine. Hammer's pretty spot on. They needed to take a look at temps and passive stuff instead of just generally nerfing all priests in the same way, which in turn made everyone's general heal spells barely worth casting. Seeing as you're the guy that the other team's always gunning for, I don't see what was wrong with having the extra survivability in the first place. A few spells for a few classes could have been tweaked, but there wasn't anything wrong with someone in your group not dying every 2 seconds.

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Old 08-16-2012, 02:12 PM   #16
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daswai wrote:

 If you think Templars are fine, then your templar must have max AA and level 92. ( mine is not )

why would i even try and make a comment on something if my toon wasnt

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Old 08-16-2012, 04:22 PM   #17
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daswai wrote:

I play a range of healers in the BGs and yes all were effected by this nerf. If you think Templars are fine, then your templar must have max AA and max BG gear and level 92. ( mine is not )

Thanks SOE for giving me reason to hang up my healer class in BG's. Its hard enough to find healers in a BG to begin with.

Way to think ahead. IF you plan on changing the classes in such a way that it really makes it hard on a class; have your dev;s play that class and not just have them playing scouts and mages.

I am going to go roll a mage.

You expect them to balance the 90-92's for non-92's?  Enjoy your tokens, exp and try and compete when your toon's ready.

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Old 08-16-2012, 04:31 PM   #18
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If you have a good team then yeah, you're fine. Hammer's pretty spot on. They needed to take a look at temps and passive stuff instead of just generally nerfing all priests in the same way, which in turn made everyone's general heal spells barely worth casting. Seeing as you're the guy that the other team's always gunning for, I don't see what was wrong with having the extra survivability in the first place. A few spells for a few classes could have been tweaked, but there wasn't anything wrong with someone in your group not dying every 2 seconds.

Exactly. Both what you and Hammer said were my exact feelings as well before this nerf. Spiritual Leadership was obviously one of the abilities that needed tweaking. I was perfectly fine with Druid/Cleric heals before the update. Shamans, mystics especially, needed to be tweaked a lot. If they toned down some of the passive abilities, while keeping 100% heal crit for priests, this update would look a whole lot sexier and be a whole lot more fun for everybody. People would still die with expert coordination and healers would have a fighting chance to stabilize groups.

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Old 08-16-2012, 04:57 PM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

This nerf was some sort of joke. Reactives tick for a Max of 2.6k on a crit. Group heals hitting for 8.6k-14k Group heals on a crit depending on class.

This. Reactives and hots are barely worth casting, and direct heals make only a blip in the health bar.

Playing a shaman is not rewarding because you rely only on OP passives and frequently-up temps. Playing a cleric/druid feels helpless because you cannot keep anyone alive reliably, only delay their death by a few seconds. Either way, skill has become a non-factor.

Edit: Also, PvP potency vs CB conversion gives preference to shamans.

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Old 08-16-2012, 05:24 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

Exactly. Both what you and Hammer said were my exact feelings as well before this nerf. Spiritual Leadership was obviously one of the abilities that needed tweaking. I was perfectly fine with Druid/Cleric heals before the update. Shamans, mystics especially, needed to be tweaked a lot. If they toned down some of the passive abilities, while keeping 100% heal crit for priests, this update would look a whole lot sexier and be a whole lot more fun for everybody. People would still die with expert coordination and healers would have a fighting chance to stabilize groups.

I feel that SL was more balanced and made more sense before they increased wards in PvP in the last GU, before the new Ancestral Channelling AA (defiled alacrity), before DG and group HOTs were nerfed, etc.

Spiritual leadership at this point, though, does need to be looked at, if only they don't over-nerf it. Shamans are still highly interruptable and easily disabled (they don't have stun/stifle immunities in the way that druids and clerics do). They were pretty bad in PvP before spiritual leadership came out (except during the whole Deadly Bane Warding thing).

Shamans could easily get screwed over--I sense a terrible nerf bat coming.

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Old 08-16-2012, 05:42 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Exactly. Both what you and Hammer said were my exact feelings as well before this nerf. Spiritual Leadership was obviously one of the abilities that needed tweaking. I was perfectly fine with Druid/Cleric heals before the update. Shamans, mystics especially, needed to be tweaked a lot. If they toned down some of the passive abilities, while keeping 100% heal crit for priests, this update would look a whole lot sexier and be a whole lot more fun for everybody. People would still die with expert coordination and healers would have a fighting chance to stabilize groups.

I feel that SL was more balanced and made more sense before they increased wards in PvP in the last GU, before the new Ancestral Channelling AA (defiled alacrity), before DG and group HOTs were nerfed, etc.

Spiritual leadership at this point, though, does need to be looked at, if only they don't over-nerf it. Shamans are still highly interruptable and easily disabled (they don't have stun/stifle immunities in the way that druids and clerics do). They were pretty bad in PvP before spiritual leadership came out (except during the whole Deadly Bane Warding thing).

Shamans could easily get screwed over--I sense a terrible nerf bat coming.

I truly believe Shamans are fine where they are, minus some passive tweaking. If they nerf them, it could be a slippery slope back into mediocrity. The only problem, which makes shamans look like gods, is that they are miles above the rest of the archtypes. Once a shaman goes down, you see the true problems of a Cleric/Druid and why they are in need of help. The group just drops.

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Old 08-16-2012, 06:27 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

This nerf was some sort of joke. Reactives tick for a Max of 2.6k on a crit. Group heals hitting for 8.6k-14k Group heals on a crit depending on class.

This. Reactives and hots are barely worth casting, and direct heals make only a blip in the health bar.

Playing a shaman is not rewarding because you rely only on OP passives and frequently-up temps. Playing a cleric/druid feels helpless because you cannot keep anyone alive reliably, only delay their death by a few seconds. Either way, skill has become a non-factor.

Edit: Also, PvP potency vs CB conversion gives preference to shamans.

wards are way op. not gonna argue against that. but straight heals dont matter when you are stacked with a million dets. all you guys running around with 2 group cures have no appreciation. the difference between how well a ranger vs a shaman cures his group is the exact same difference between shamans and other healers: 1 more group cure.

inquisitor is the most op healer, maybe the most op class in game period. they have the best cures in game, are absolutely amazing healers, and do crazy dps.

cures need to be toned way down as a gate. even without nerfing shaman they need to be toned down.

nerfing shaman (hurting everyones hps) without nerfing cure requirements is idiotic. maybe we need to make cures crit, doubling their levels, so only sometimes you get to cure. how does that sound? everyone but shaman kicks as s at cures, nerfing the thing shamans do well is a net gain for all healers with 2 group cures cuz it makes curing all the more relevent. (templars i didnt forget you, yes i know you are screwed and only have 1 group cure, you are the grand redheaded stepchild atm)

what i found dumb coming into bg, was that my raid geared shaman who can solo heal udx4 main tank group was no match for a group that loaded dets. this is before ppl had enough tokens for lethality etc too.

straight heals dont mean crap in bg. after this update, straight heals ARENT crap, they totally suck.

nerfing heals impacts shamans the most by a long shot. healing is all they can do in the face of 50 groupwide dets. and i play a mystic with uninteruptable group ward. defiler must really suck. whoever came up with idea for making best aoe dpser have control effects is a m0r0n. i dont know how many times a warlock screwed with me.

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Old 08-16-2012, 06:35 PM   #23
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Is this real life?

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Old 08-16-2012, 07:44 PM   #24
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All I got from that wall of text was nerf Inquisitors and cures because they are OP. And you compared PVE to PVP. Yeah, not even going to bother.

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Old 08-16-2012, 07:52 PM   #25
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Planned on coming back this week but everything I've read about says playing as a healer is pointless now as I will be rolled over by players who cant even grasp what they will do after pressing 1 through 5, guess I'll play my alt Wizard as he will apparently steam roll with ease.

Thanks for the heads up, saved me the time of even checking what my Inquisitor would need at cap.  I'll check back in 5-7 months for the inevitable fix

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Old 08-16-2012, 07:56 PM   #26
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Exagon wrote:

daswai wrote:

 If you think Templars are fine, then your templar must have max AA and level 92. ( mine is not )

why would i even try and make a comment on something if my toon wasnt

Thought you played only a warden and an inquis not a temp.

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Old 08-16-2012, 08:14 PM   #27
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Wards aren't OP. they're crap like everyone else's hots/reactives have become. Certain temps and passive abilities are what shamans had going for them, and still do because none of them crit in the first place. So basically SOE did nothing to curb OP abilities, just made the rest of our heals cruddy.

and cures are alredy nerfed enough in BGs. They're set on a longer recast for everyone. Dets stack up on you even if you have the spare cure.

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Old 08-16-2012, 10:33 PM   #28
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tbh i felt that druids and clerics were fine before the nerf..but the problem i was having was with shamons. Even after the update it seems like shamons just dont go down. i felt the only tweek needed was to shamons and not the other healers and after this update shamons are still on top and untouched tbh.... If you can break through theyre spam warding 1v1 and get them to orange/red they use ancestral channeling and heals them for 30k+...unless ur a class that has alot of CC shamons just dont die

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Old 08-17-2012, 12:24 AM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

Seriously, you need to do some major damage control. This update just crippled priests. Shamans are doing fine, it's rough, but they can manage. Druids/Clerics need some help. The change never should have made it live without reducing DPS. You JUST buffed scouts, which is resulting in predators still doing 20k+ CA's, rogues doing a fair amount of damage over time and sorceror's are still rediculous in both damage and survivability. You really need to reevaluate some of the changes you are pushing forward to live.

Just tried to pvp with my Inq through several BG's.   Forget it, another wasted toon.   I slap ALL of my heals on anyone or even myself and I cant even get back near the green least of all survive a few seconds into a melee as I watch my entire group die.  This was a stupid nerfdate and totally crippled my only healer.  Seriously,  first my dirge gets made useless in pvp and now my inquisitor???? Why is it so hard to just adjust the problems with the specific class and stop with the accross the board nerfs that we keep getting fed???  Shamans  needed an adjustment and  ALL healers get hosed. Auto attack and flurry needed adjusted for  rogues and preds and ALL scouts get hosed,   sorcs still need to stop wearing plate armor but im willing to bet if there ever is a fix to that they will " adjust " ALL mage classes. This game has gotten to beyond pathetic means and I'm seriously considering cancelling my account.

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Old 08-17-2012, 05:39 AM   #30
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Wards aren't OP. they're crap like everyone else's hots/reactives have become. Certain temps and passive abilities are what shamans had going for them, and still do because none of them crit in the first place. So basically SOE did nothing to curb OP abilities, just made the rest of our heals cruddy.

and cures are alredy nerfed enough in BGs. They're set on a longer recast for everyone. Dets stack up on you even if you have the spare cure.

how many levels does inq myth group cure fix?

we are not talking about an additive ability, these other classes have 2 (or more) times as fast curing power. thats what having 2 group cures means. if you dont think the extra group cure means anything, what about the 1st one? if 2 isnt a huge amazing advantage over 1, then how is 1 any better than 0? for a multiplicative advantage to be meaningless, the initial ability needs to be roughly of zero value, meaning cures dont help to begin with.

all you are saying is that cures dont matter. well the fact is that nonshamans cure the det loading TWICE AS FAST. so if they cant get them off either, atleast the dets are not stacking as fast!!! if det stacking is a bad thing, why wouldnt 2 group cures be awesome? if nonshamans cant keep them off, how do you think things work out for shamans? yeah they prolly dont mind having MORE dets on their group, as a fact of life, than the other healers. therefore shaman heals should be equal to the other healers.

you point about recast doesnt change anything unless both group cures share same timer in pvp. otherwise your point is meaningless as its equilized and all share the penalty, while retaining their original curing pecking order.

if you think 2 group cures isnt lightyears ahead of 1, in detriment hell group pvp, just propose all healers can only use 1 group cure in pvp. watch the reaction. your perspective on the value of curing is absurd. dets are unbelievably overpowering in pvp. if they werent, why would anyone bother curing them to begin with? in that kind of scenario, it makes sense for all healers to be equal in health healing. but the reality is that dets have teeth, and healers who are better at curing have a major advantage when health healing is nerfed. it just makes cures all the more important.

i dont mind having disparity in how well different priests cure, but the poor curers dam well better be better health healers. reducing EVERYONES ability to heal health just reduces the relevence of health healing overall, unfairly penalizing those who specialize in it while sacrificing better curing ability. just imagine it the other way around and everyones cures were put on a 10 minute recast timer. turning ppls primary niche/strength into crap wont solve balance issues.

for a marginal shaman to break into pvp would be a sad story. his gear is subpar and he needs to crit to survive 0.25 seconds, is getting stacked with dets. that is a losing proposition every time. gee im glad tokens are notrade.

i love going into a gears match with a crappy tank while the other group knows how to use dets. it means they will target me with impunity and bust my balls the whole match long, putting cc on me, target locking me, while my tank spams his damage cas. /smh yeah curing wouldnt help with that... (and no im not advocating more cures for shaman, just dont nerf their strength, health healing)

shamans are vulnerable to det attack. they dont also need to be vulnerable to health dropping to zero from unimpressive vanilla damage cas.

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