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Old 12-06-2011, 11:44 AM   #1
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Was thinking about this in my "I want a new server" thread...

Platinum is pointless now for older players, and to an extent, new players since older players will dump it on them in small amounts.

Could you imagine 5p hire mercenaries on a new server?

It seems like every expansion just worsens the problem because more money comes in with no good use for it. Same as the problem with every expansion making characters so powerful that previous zones become child play, and mentoring down or chrono'ing is still just silly.

Remember table top RPG's, when level 5 characters were exciting, not due to their power but the nature of the adventures content?

EQ2 has some EXCELLENT content, but none of it is a challenge anymore save for latest expansion raids/hard zones, which are only hard by making creatures have insane defenses and hitpoints.

Future MMOs may learn, probably not, but can anything be done for EQ2 to restore the economy to where a gold matters and risk is present?

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Old 12-06-2011, 11:51 AM   #2
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Was thinking about this in my "I want a new server" thread...

Platinum is pointless now for older players, and to an extent, new players since older players will dump it on them in small amounts.

Could you imagine 5p hire mercenaries on a new server?

It seems like every expansion just worsens the problem because more money comes in with no good use for it. Same as the problem with every expansion making characters so powerful that previous zones become child play, and mentoring down or chrono'ing is still just silly.

Remember table top RPG's, when level 5 characters were exciting, not due to their power but the nature of the adventures content?

EQ2 has some EXCELLENT content, but none of it is a challenge anymore save for latest expansion raids/hard zones, which are only hard by making creatures have insane defenses and hitpoints.

Future MMOs may learn, probably not, but can anything be done for EQ2 to restore the economy to where a gold matters and risk is present?

I remember when having a few plat was amazing...I saved so much for my little 40% or so horse.. Anyways, the only way I can see this happening would be to change all the rates on money, then watch everybody's store of monies slowly shrink. Although, I can see a LOT of complaining throughout the process....

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Old 12-06-2011, 11:55 AM   #3
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The problem is it would CRIPPLE truly new players who dont have a ton of plat nor anyone in a guild farming it to them.

Not sure there is an EQ2 economy solution

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Old 12-06-2011, 11:56 AM   #4
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Future MMOs may learn, probably not, but can anything be done for EQ2 to restore the economy to where a gold matters and risk is present?

Why should Gold matter? Why do we need any 'economic' activity?

Imagine a gameworld where all activities rewarded tokens that were non-tradable and you spent those tokens on items from NPCs.

No gold. No economic activity.

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Old 12-06-2011, 11:58 AM   #5
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I don't see how they could make it work at this point of the game. They could put in some expensive items, but then they'd have to deal with people complaining about how unfair it is that only SLR raiders and people who buy plat can afford them.

Prices adjust. New players that don't figure out the broker economy get left behind a bit, but it's easy enough for everyone to get plat now. (opinion subject to pre-ftp thinking)

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:08 PM   #6
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The problem is that plat sinks didn't grow with the game.

At launch, there were good plat sinks in game.  You had to decide whether you could afford to have a ROOM, let alone a house.  You had to decide whether you could afford to pay for a ticket to go from QH to Thundering Steppes.

Those sinks simply didn't grow with the game.  You have to destroy coin.  It must go to NPC's, not to other players for this to happen.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:13 PM   #7
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in the meanwhile, i bet most of u buy SC cards and play the game for free, while (when F2P hits) keeping ur gold member status....so in fact ur all contributing to the same thing ur complaining about, lol

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:17 PM   #8
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There needs to be more player interactive economy in this game. All items need a degradation scale, and all crafters would be sought out to fix equipment better than an NPC mender could.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:19 PM   #9
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chardz wrote:

in the meanwhile, i bet most of u buy SC cards and play the game for free, while (when F2P hits) keeping ur gold member status....so in fact ur all contributing to the same thing ur complaining about, lol

It's still a short thread. If you want to start keeping track, I've never bought a SC card...with real money or plat. I did buy enough SC with cash for a few character slots and maybe one of the charity items.

I wish they'd put an end to the loophole that allows people to buy plat as long as SOE gets their cut.

That all said, buying SC cards with plat doesn't contribute to inflation. It just shifts already present plat around. So even if people in this thread are buying cards, that doesn't have anything to do with the point of this thread.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:19 PM   #10
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The bigger problem is the new sinks only come with new expansions, so people just sit around betweene expansiosn saving up wealth.

I took a break at the launch of DoV, so I have some content to enjoy with this new exp too, but when I came back, someone told me that I could get sub-raid (but better than my pre DOV raid) gear by just spending 500-600 on a crafted set.

500-600p? and then telling me, yeah, thats like maybe 5 days of work if you go slow.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:24 PM   #11
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while plat is much more prevelant now for me than it used to be. I still dont just throw it around like others do. Mainly having a million alts eats alot of my plat.. but i still dont like paying 100p for each gem off the broker for a piece of rygorr etc.. and i sometimes choke when i see the prices of items in SLR.. yes its because i am a part time player and dont do a lot of groups, raid etc.. i could add up all my plat on my many alts and get maybe 1500p.. alot to some people, nothing to others... but to me, its alot.. and i wont just waste it.. I dont feel that I personnally need a plat sink... others do..
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:25 PM   #12
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Brigh wrote:

There needs to be more player interactive economy in this game. All items need a degradation scale, and all crafters would be sought out to fix equipment better than an NPC mender could.

Player to player transactions do absolutely ZILCH to address mudflation.  That's the point.  Coin must be destroyed, not simply shuffled across players.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The bigger problem is the new sinks only come with new expansions, so people just sit around betweene expansiosn saving up wealth.

I took a break at the launch of DoV, so I have some content to enjoy with this new exp too, but when I came back, someone told me that I could get sub-raid (but better than my pre DOV raid) gear by just spending 500-600 on a crafted set.

500-600p? and then telling me, yeah, thats like maybe 5 days of work if you go slow.

Once again, you are not fixing the problem.  Crafted gear doesn't destroy plat.  It just shuffles it around.  Plat must LEAVE THE GAME in order to address mudflation.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:32 PM   #13
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well not much you can do about this.i seen in auction channel people put in first bid for 1k pp for 1 piece of item ,seen even some items go for 3k pp which to me is outrageous thats more then all my level 90s crafters put together which is like 7 crafters got.

but guess thats the way the game has gotten .

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:32 PM   #14
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Banditman wrote:

Brigh wrote:

There needs to be more player interactive economy in this game. All items need a degradation scale, and all crafters would be sought out to fix equipment better than an NPC mender could.

Player to player transactions do absolutely ZILCH to address mudflation.  That's the point.  Coin must be destroyed, not simply shuffled across players.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The bigger problem is the new sinks only come with new expansions, so people just sit around betweene expansiosn saving up wealth.

I took a break at the launch of DoV, so I have some content to enjoy with this new exp too, but when I came back, someone told me that I could get sub-raid (but better than my pre DOV raid) gear by just spending 500-600 on a crafted set.

500-600p? and then telling me, yeah, thats like maybe 5 days of work if you go slow.

Once again, you are not fixing the problem.  Crafted gear doesn't destroy plat.  It just shuffles it around.  Plat must LEAVE THE GAME in order to address mudflation.

Excessive sources of easily obtained plat also need to be removed, to address mudflation.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:33 PM   #15
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You completely ignored what I said about degradation. I play Eve Online, and plenty of equipment gets destroyed (cash) every day, while the crafters (industrialists) create the equipment people use.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:39 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

Excessive sources of easily obtained plat also need to be removed, to address mudflation.

Why is inflation bad in a MMO?

In the real world there are lots of logistic problems like needing a wheelbarrow of paper money to buy a loaf of bread or printing new currency with lots of zeros.

But in a MMO where the currency is digital those problems dont' exisit. We don't have a weight to our coin and we can carry a billion plat as easy as we can carry one.

In addition, inflation in the real world causes problems for wage earners as there is a lag in the time where wages catch up to prices. But in a MMO that doesn't exist. In fact, the cause of the rise in prices is a direct result of the increase in wages (more loot causes higher prices) so high prices doesn't hurt in a MMO because players are getting more loot.

The only people affected by inflation in a MMO are those brand new players with no currency. But those people aren't really hurt. You can solo easy enough and the coin rewards are enough so you're never hurting for money.

So I'm not sure why inflation is viewed as a problem in a virtual world.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:46 PM   #17
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Nod, i agree, wasnt saying that the 500-600 for a full set of gear is the answer, just an illustration of where the problem has gotten to.

And items are so common now that masters that would once go for a hard saved 10p sell for 50g.

The original point remains, no solution? and without a solution, stepping into the game as a 0 gold newbie would be harsh.

I mean, 5p to rent a merc and 25g per half-hour to maintain is nothing for established servers/players, but on a new server? Noone would be using mercs for a while, thats for sure.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:46 PM   #18
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Introduce new plat-sinks.

Reduce plat-generation methods.

Those don't really address the issue of disparity, which is what tends to make "fixing" the economy difficult.

Part of the trick is also to have the rates of consumption be something palatable.  Much like with micro-transactions, the trick should be to setup the economy so the costs don't appear significant to the consumer.   This will help keep 'new entries' to the system from accumulating vast sums of wealth.

Addressing large vaults of wealth is difficult.  Introduce a high-cost novelty item, folks who aren't wealthy want it, and not all the wealthy necessarily want to spend money on it.  Best idea I've seen has been one of conversion.  Let folks who accumulate massive amounts of plat convert it to something else [Status Points, Guild Status, some other metric that's not a huge deal if people buy their way up through].

Now, mudflation will typically happen in a MMO, players like to accumulate wealth, and some folks don't really like the 0-sum game [there are those who do, and there are some nice sandbox mmos out there that follow that framework].  In general, the goal is more about constrained mudflation so the currency still has value, but not necessarily stopping it.  You don't want a game where folks trade in multiples of the currency-cap for items SMILEY.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:47 PM   #19
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The conversion thing could work, if it was a desired conversion.

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Old 12-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #20
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Remove 90% of everyone's plat. Call it a Veeshan tax, as in, Veeshan came and took their stuff.

Heavily tone down the extremely unbalanced returns in places like PR.

Weather the storm by saying it's "part of the vision", and that's that.

Actually, skip that last part. Wrong producer.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:09 PM   #21
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Plat sinks are needed.Mercs are kind of a plat sink... and will remove some plat from the system, but its not enough on its own.

Honestly what I think would be the best thing:Remove the no-trade flag from all gear.  Replace it with something else like a "Broker" flag.  Make all loot from chests only assignable for those present at the time of the kill. (ends SLR).  The "Broker" flag would mean that the loot can only be transfered and sold to other players through the Broker system, but make broker fees for "Broker" flagged items a flat 20%, completely unavoidable. 

End result, a lot of useful gear will appear on the broker.The SLR channel spam will end.20% of the purchase price of all gear taxed out of the economy would remove thousands of plat a day from the game economy.The Broker actually becomes useful again for something besides collections/crafting mats/consumables.  Like it should be.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:11 PM   #22
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Right now removing PR would only solve a small part of the problem, there is jsut too much money flooding the system

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:18 PM   #23
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Right now removing PR would only solve a small part of the problem, there is jsut too much money flooding the system

Thus my suggestion to have Veeshan come down and extort 90% of everyone plat at claw-point.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:18 PM   #24
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Gravy wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Excessive sources of easily obtained plat also need to be removed, to address mudflation.

Why is inflation bad in a MMO?

In the real world there are lots of logistic problems like needing a wheelbarrow of paper money to buy a loaf of bread or printing new currency with lots of zeros.

But in a MMO where the currency is digital those problems dont' exisit. We don't have a weight to our coin and we can carry a billion plat as easy as we can carry one.

In addition, inflation in the real world causes problems for wage earners as there is a lag in the time where wages catch up to prices. But in a MMO that doesn't exist. In fact, the cause of the rise in prices is a direct result of the increase in wages (more loot causes higher prices) so high prices doesn't hurt in a MMO because players are getting more loot.

The only people affected by inflation in a MMO are those brand new players with no currency. But those people aren't really hurt. You can solo easy enough and the coin rewards are enough so you're never hurting for money.

So I'm not sure why inflation is viewed as a problem in a virtual world.

Inflation is bad because it becomes yet another barrier to entry for new players.

All games have churn, which is the rate of incoming players to exiting players.  When your net churn is negative, you are bleeding players and your game is "declining".  This is where EQ2 is right now, despite the party line that "EQ2 is fine".

In the long run, new players are critical to success and growth.  More important, you need to retain those players and those players need to become part of the dedicated population.  They need to support your game with their dollars on an ongoing basis.

Inflation makes it less likely these players will do that.  Because of the design of our broker system, there is no "punishment" for listing an item at a price higher than it "should" really sell for.  Let's say I have the only copy of "Mystic_Spell_43_Master" on the broker.  It's a Level 22 spell.  I list it for 5 plat.  There is no penalty to me for that listing, I either sell it or not.  However, will a newly minted L22 Mystic be able to afford it?  No way.  I know that, but I don't care, because some veteran leveling an alt will go "5 Plat?  Sure, no problem".

Yes, it was good for me, I made my 5 plat.  But that new player?  Not really so good for him, right?  He got stuck with far less attractive options.

Inflation deters new players.  It's a rather hard to define, hard to quantify thing, but it most definitely does.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:20 PM   #25
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Outstanding post Banditman.

Exactly the point. A new server would be good, IF they removed all the money sources and made you work for a gold.

As it is now, if you come in truly new with no guild to support you, then you will get frustrated and leave or turn to buying plat. Either way not good for SOE's bottom line.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:21 PM   #26
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Banditman wrote:

Gravy wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Excessive sources of easily obtained plat also need to be removed, to address mudflation.

Why is inflation bad in a MMO?

In the real world there are lots of logistic problems like needing a wheelbarrow of paper money to buy a loaf of bread or printing new currency with lots of zeros.

But in a MMO where the currency is digital those problems dont' exisit. We don't have a weight to our coin and we can carry a billion plat as easy as we can carry one.

In addition, inflation in the real world causes problems for wage earners as there is a lag in the time where wages catch up to prices. But in a MMO that doesn't exist. In fact, the cause of the rise in prices is a direct result of the increase in wages (more loot causes higher prices) so high prices doesn't hurt in a MMO because players are getting more loot.

The only people affected by inflation in a MMO are those brand new players with no currency. But those people aren't really hurt. You can solo easy enough and the coin rewards are enough so you're never hurting for money.

So I'm not sure why inflation is viewed as a problem in a virtual world.

Inflation is bad because it becomes yet another barrier to entry for new players.

All games have churn, which is the rate of incoming players to exiting players.  When your net churn is negative, you are bleeding players and your game is "declining".  This is where EQ2 is right now, despite the party line that "EQ2 is fine".

In the long run, new players are critical to success and growth.  More important, you need to retain those players and those players need to become part of the dedicated population.  They need to support your game with their dollars on an ongoing basis.

Inflation makes it less likely these players will do that.  Because of the design of our broker system, there is no "punishment" for listing an item at a price higher than it "should" really sell for.  Let's say I have the only copy of "Mystic_Spell_43_Master" on the broker.  It's a Level 22 spell.  I list it for 5 plat.  There is no penalty to me for that listing, I either sell it or not.  However, will a newly minted L22 Mystic be able to afford it?  No way.  I know that, but I don't care, because some veteran leveling an alt will go "5 Plat?  Sure, no problem".

Yes, it was good for me, I made my 5 plat.  But that new player?  Not really so good for him, right?  He got stuck with far less attractive options.

Inflation deters new players.  It's a rather hard to define, hard to quantify thing, but it most definitely does.

Quest rewards and coin are plenty enough for a new player to survive from 1-90. New players should not be affected by inflation because things like mending are not affected.

At 90 they get Thurgadin gear for pretty cheap. They should have plenty of coin by that time.

Then they start to group heroic zones and raid getting no-trade loot.

That leaves inflation only affecting high level players but since they are the ones doing PR runs they have plenty of coin.

At best, inflation in a MMO is like a cat chasing its tail.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:23 PM   #27
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I mean, 5p to rent a merc and 25g per half-hour to maintain is nothing for established servers/players, but on a new server? Noone would be using mercs for a while, thats for sure.

Seems to me that expensive mercenaries only penalize the people who would actually use them. Very well-geared players do not need mercs. Their biggest beneficiaries will be duos and small groups, the least likely players to have excess funds.

If you're going to tax players, you have to target that tax, otherwise you only end up inflicting pain upon players who cannot afford it. Look at how hard it is in the real world to tax the right people. Do you really want Occupy/Norrath  and a forum war between the 99% and the 1%?

Yeah, some prices are insane* - but where is that insane plat going? Find that out, then set a rolling tax to target those people. (*And even then, some stingy level 90 peeps still only tip my tradeskillers with a few measly gold!)

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:23 PM   #28
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Yea, sorry you missed the point.  I can't explain it to you.  Maybe someone else can try.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:26 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

Excessive sources of easily obtained plat also need to be removed, to address mudflation.

This to be honest. If PR, Shard of hate, Veeshan's peak, Shard/mark chests, ooa kierax's treasure, Munzok's first name, Miragul's planar shard etc all dropped platinum per person in the raid (and thus not affecting people progressing through that content at level) the constant flow of platinum into the game would slow and sinks in game would then drain some of it away slowly. More sinks would have to be added later, although mercs could provide this quite nicely along with high priced merchant items that are desirable.

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Old 12-06-2011, 01:27 PM   #30
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Nod, i agree, wasnt saying that the 500-600 for a full set of gear is the answer, just an illustration of where the problem has gotten to.

And items are so common now that masters that would once go for a hard saved 10p sell for 50g.

The original point remains, no solution? and without a solution, stepping into the game as a 0 gold newbie would be harsh.

I mean, 5p to rent a merc and 25g per half-hour to maintain is nothing for established servers/players, but on a new server? Noone would be using mercs for a while, thats for sure.

That's good. I suppose.

I'm new and just a few months ago, silver was significant to me, for a short while. Gold is still notable to me, but not as much as a month ago.

I already see lost of posts from people who say, "so and so power leveled me, but now I can't solo worth a dang!!" - Mercs might even make that worse, if you had a pocket healer the whole time, would you ever learn to play the class well? Perhaps.

To me, the economy is what it is - some items I certainly cannot afford. The /auction channel is worthless to new players, there's no way I'm spending more than 75 gold on a single piece of gear right now - it will be replaced in 10 levels for sure.

So this forces me to group, tradeskill, farm, or solo dungeons for loots. That in turn increases my EQ2 gaming skills in a round-about way.

To me as a new player in this or other MMO's - an inflated economy means opportunity. People will pay large chunks of coin for some items - and that helps me out. Then if I try a new class, I have a couple plat for some twink gear or a mount. Having pretty much nothing - and I find a master level spell that I can sell for 5p - then I have a little spending cash. It's not all bad.

But it wouldn't hurt Sony to put in a plat sink, but I don't think it would change the playing field in the economy for new players. 10 plat or 500 plat - it's out of my reach and not worth it for anything that's replaced in 10 levels or even 20 levels, for that matter.

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