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Old 11-28-2011, 03:57 AM   #31
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I see that. but that's why there should be rotation then. if you have 28 people constantly, that's great. and yes that 4 people evewrytime who sit out. you rotate. it's a very simple thing. if they really care about thier guildmates, they shouldn't mind taking a day and not raiding becuase someone else who wasn't able to last time gets to. building the group should be more important then looting for your 5th alt.

the the second example is why I'm not advocating for the removal of the hierloom tag. that way you bring that healer, they can still tarde loot off to thier tank. the player was still there in the raid event.

what I am against is the idea of a class that has never even done an instance, ever, never raided, ever...running around in full HM gear/weapons because what they can do is play the market, or buy thier plat. or they have lots of cash to burn, and buy SC items to trade for plat.

these same people, once they have all thier gear, then come calling for groups in places that require you to know what the hell you're doing. or they then want to raid as some main force member, and get everyone killed repeatedly over things that they very well should know not to do, or know how to do.

In Eq1, having good gear was the result of knowing how to play. period. there were no shortcuts, there were no workarounds. if you were a poor player, you couldn't beat the content, you didn't get that nice looking set of armor or the flaming sword or the staff with a dragons head topper.

this meant that the gear became carrot, and a stick to measure you by. you had to get better, you had to learn how to play in groups and raids, you had to learn what you can do so you could get the nifty gear. and having the good gear meant people wanted to play with you becuase you obviously know what your doing. (attitudes aside on that)

Honestly in EQ1, the only 'PuG' issues were ninja looters, and loot and scoot people. those were the big issues. not like here were people can't trust to PuG because there's a good chance no matter how well geared someone is they will have no idea how to play thier class. course this is also from Powerleveling, but that's a different topic.

that's why I would prefer to have it as heirloom/no trade meaning NO selling the items in channels.that healer with a tank alt can still get the tank gear, but no, the sword of uberness dropping for the 50th time gets muted, not sold to Johnny Cantplaymyclass for 400 plat.

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Old 11-28-2011, 04:25 AM   #32
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Dreyco wrote:

Cloudrat wrote:

Dreyco wrote:

Cloudrat wrote:

Dreyco wrote:

That's the thing though.  No Trade prevents players from rampaging through a dungeon and farming it for loot to sell on the broker.  With the coming of Free to Play, this would mean that anyone could rake through said dungeons and with the right tokens, sell those items for money on the market.

Having Heirloom and notrade on items disincentivizes that.  Unless you want to completely and totally gut contested content, which is the bulk of the dungeon content at lower levels (And thus will be where most of the new, incoming players will be spending their time), then I suggest that this be left alone.

Strangely, I don't remember that happening back in the olden days when we were having fun grouping. questing and the game was at it's peak, before they invented heirloom and started slapping notrade on everything.

The sky will fall predictions of what might happen aren't based on any actual evidence.

What did happen was they prohibited alcohol in 1920 and created organized crime.

Prohibited sales on ebay and voila blackmarket plat sales skyrocketed. Instead of players selling to each other we now have sweat shops farming plat who have no interest in gameplay just profits.

Prohibition is a bit of an extreme example to  make when it comes to this kind of comparison.  Back then, you couldn't just plow through a zone mentored and clear it while self mentored to get access to easy loot and easy chests.  If this happens, it wouldn't be uncommon to see people who are inconsiderately attempting to dominate the zone for loot drops with no challenge attached to it.  That is not something I want to see as I try to roll a new beastlord or a new toon with friends to level up with them.

If you played on Firiona Vie during its heyday, you would know that this is the case... they had to add in trivial loot code to attempt to negate it, and even then, people found ways around it.  Farming was a huge problem, the bazaar was full of extremely powerful items for extremely high prices, and gold selling was a serious, serious issue because of it.

I don't want to see that happen here.

Instances take care of zones being dominated. Save the contested dungeons for quest updates and limit the loot in them.

You can still make toons and play in any manner you wish. 

Heirloom and notrade just makes sure a few can preen, that is at the expense of the bulk of the players. 

That would require that they go back and then change either every contested dungeon in the game below a certain level to then be instanced, or add in instanced content to supplement what is currently there.  Too much work, and unnecessary when the system is apparently working as it should.

Back then poeple have been slightly different. Most paid their sub to have fun. Gameplay was different and not so extremely based on item stats. I never cared for loot till RoK. I just used the best i could get and i always was competitive.

The devs try to avoid whatever they can. But there is almost always a hole for the exploiters.

Bottomline in 2011/12 is, that economy has to vanish from games almost completely.

The broker is ok for minor items everyone needs once in a while.  EQ2 is on the right way imho but not as advanced as Rift for example. Trion has one of the best balanced item distibution i have seen so far in any game. EQ2 seesm to follow the same idea lately, but still suffers a bit from the old EQ elitism. The gems for RyGorr Armor is a good example. I hope AoD will close the crafter gap to some degree. I just hope they give up on the idea that a rare drop should be the base of a crafted item. It should be the cherry on top. It is no problem to craft a chest over and over each time you have been lucky to loot or obtain a better "booster" item for crafting. Just let people remove adornments and add a atunement slot to crafting as Vanguard has or sell special recipes for faction or crafter tokens like Rift does it.

This doesnt crash with grouping and raiding btw.  Parallel alternative itemization is currently the only doable way to please a broader audience.

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Old 11-28-2011, 04:41 AM   #33
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I see that. but that's why there should be rotation then. if you have 28 people constantly, that's great. and yes that 4 people evewrytime who sit out. you rotate. it's a very simple thing. if they really care about thier guildmates, they shouldn't mind taking a day and not raiding becuase someone else who wasn't able to last time gets to. building the group should be more important then looting for your 5th alt.

the the second example is why I'm not advocating for the removal of the hierloom tag. that way you bring that healer, they can still tarde loot off to thier tank. the player was still there in the raid event.

what I am against is the idea of a class that has never even done an instance, ever, never raided, ever...running around in full HM gear/weapons because what they can do is play the market, or buy thier plat. or they have lots of cash to burn, and buy SC items to trade for plat.

these same people, once they have all thier gear, then come calling for groups in places that require you to know what the hell you're doing. or they then want to raid as some main force member, and get everyone killed repeatedly over things that they very well should know not to do, or know how to do.

In Eq1, having good gear was the result of knowing how to play. period. there were no shortcuts, there were no workarounds. if you were a poor player, you couldn't beat the content, you didn't get that nice looking set of armor or the flaming sword or the staff with a dragons head topper.

this meant that the gear became carrot, and a stick to measure you by. you had to get better, you had to learn how to play in groups and raids, you had to learn what you can do so you could get the nifty gear. and having the good gear meant people wanted to play with you becuase you obviously know what your doing. (attitudes aside on that)

Honestly in EQ1, the only 'PuG' issues were ninja looters, and loot and scoot people. those were the big issues. not like here were people can't trust to PuG because there's a good chance no matter how well geared someone is they will have no idea how to play thier class. course this is also from Powerleveling, but that's a different topic.

that's why I would prefer to have it as heirloom/no trade meaning NO selling the items in channels.that healer with a tank alt can still get the tank gear, but no, the sword of uberness dropping for the 50th time gets muted, not sold to Johnny Cantplaymyclass for 400 plat.

I think your memory of EQ1 is faulty, yes in the early days there was little trade in items and a small market, that was because there was no market.  Then the players gave us the market in the tunnel and everyone came and traded.  Then Verant caught on and created a special zone on the moon for people to set up trading stands.  Remember that? The lag on a good day in that zone made the Stormgorge PQ look lag free!

Also there was camping giants because the cash drop was so good, and then the Aqua Goblins in Butcherblock, because if you took the loot to the moon it was worth serious cash.

So plat farming was invented and people paid real dollars for plat in shady deals in quiet corners of the Qeynos Hills.

The genie was out of the bottle and you are not going to shove it back in there!

Clean up SLR, and people will sell raid slots, they did it for Mythic updates, they will do it for EM loot and then HM loot and then..... well you get the picture.  Yes the whole loot for plat, plat for cash cycle is faster and more wide spread than ever before, yes it is radically changing the game.  No the change, IMHO,  is not for the better.

Every solution proposed will fail!  Because those that want to make a buck will find a new way of doing it!!  There will always be sellers because there will always be buyers.

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Old 11-28-2011, 04:59 AM   #34
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millie wrote:

The genie was out of the bottle and you are not going to shove it back in there!

Clean up SLR, and people will sell raid slots, they did it for Mythic updates, they will do it for EM loot and then HM loot and then..... well you get the picture.  Yes the whole loot for plat, plat for cash cycle is faster and more wide spread than ever before, yes it is radically changing the game.  No the change, IMHO,  is not for the better.

Every solution proposed will fail!  Because those that want to make a buck will find a new way of doing it!!  There will always be sellers because there will always be buyers.

Wanna bet ?

SWTOR introduces personal loot. Means everyone will have its own roll on the loot table. And this is just the beginning of an era where DEVs activley create systems to avoid RMT in any from.  It isnt much about moral, but the whole plat world behind the szenes does hurt the games and their producers. There are millions of people who just want to play without this in the background. Skyrim sold 3.5 million copies why ? Deep gameplay and no social drama SMILEY

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Old 11-28-2011, 05:49 AM   #35
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[email protected] wrote:

I see that. but that's why there should be rotation then. if you have 28 people constantly, that's great. and yes that 4 people evewrytime who sit out. you rotate. it's a very simple thing. if they really care about thier guildmates, they shouldn't mind taking a day and not raiding becuase someone else who wasn't able to last time gets to. building the group should be more important then looting for your 5th alt.

Sounds to me like you've got a problem with your guild, not the game.  I'd suggest you really need to speak to the guild leader concerned since guilds I've been in have had no problems implementing a fair rotation policy and certainly haven't needed to have SOE enforce it.

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Old 11-28-2011, 06:28 AM   #36
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Cloudrat wrote:

The tags heirloom and notrade are the real game killers.

These are narrowing the gameplay styles and encouraging boxing.

They don't thwart anything  but fun.

i agree partly, i agree it looks like the two boxers are ruining the game. These boxers only stick to themselves, never make groups with others. Making it near impossible for ppl to get in a grp pre 90 and thus making it impossible to practice their class in grp pre 90.

But i dont think the  boxers are to blame. I blame SOE, SOE or smokejumper is enabling these boxers. The best solution for all is to make the difficulty of every single instance scale with ur lvl, AA lvl and gear. If SOE makes it impossible to solo instances then boxing will not be a problem anymore at all. And the truly exceptional players will still find a way to solo instances, but in the going rate now, everyone is exeptional.

As to the other debate, i dont think getting the heirloom tag off will add anything to fun and getting the notrade tag off will make it easier to put stuff on broker, making it viable for more ppl to buy it.

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:56 AM   #37
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chardz wrote:

i agree partly, i agree it looks like the two boxers are ruining the game

A simple solution is to make XP based on how much you contributed to the kill. Not simply being in the group when the kill is made.

This would make PL much more difficult. It also makes it more difficult for boxers because each box would need to contribute to the kill.

It would also make it so grouping on too easy content doesn't benefit the group because when the tank 1 hits the mob no one else gets XP.

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Old 11-28-2011, 09:11 AM   #38
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

chardz wrote:

i agree partly, i agree it looks like the two boxers are ruining the game

A simple solution is to make XP based on how much you contributed to the kill. Not simply being in the group when the kill is made.

This would make PL much more difficult. It also makes it more difficult for boxers because each box would need to contribute to the kill.

It would also make it so grouping on too easy content doesn't benefit the group because when the tank 1 hits the mob no one else gets XP.

and that's why i'd make the lower lvl dungeons harder, lots harder, so ppl are forced to group once again and thus give them the much needed experience for the endgame. By making lower lvl dungeons trivial grouping is dead, this is why boxing started in the first place, cure the disease, not the symptom

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Old 11-28-2011, 09:30 AM   #39
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

chardz wrote:

i agree partly, i agree it looks like the two boxers are ruining the game

A simple solution is to make XP based on how much you contributed to the kill. Not simply being in the group when the kill is made.

This would make PL much more difficult. It also makes it more difficult for boxers because each box would need to contribute to the kill.

It would also make it so grouping on too easy content doesn't benefit the group because when the tank 1 hits the mob no one else gets XP.

I'm just going to leave one word sitting here: Healers.

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Old 11-28-2011, 09:57 AM   #40
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Well, quite honestly, you could remove the tag....Kill the boxing...whatever....

Still won't stop folks like me from soloing zones- whether contested or instanced- at level, looting, muting, and selling on the broker. SMILEY You can try, though!

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Old 11-28-2011, 10:58 AM   #41
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

chardz wrote:

i agree partly, i agree it looks like the two boxers are ruining the game

A simple solution is to make XP based on how much you contributed to the kill. Not simply being in the group when the kill is made.

This would make PL much more difficult. It also makes it more difficult for boxers because each box would need to contribute to the kill.

It would also make it so grouping on too easy content doesn't benefit the group because when the tank 1 hits the mob no one else gets XP.

How do you determine who contributed? How do heals, buffs, debuffs, power regen, and agro factor in to the kill?

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Old 11-28-2011, 11:39 AM   #42
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They just need to institute the system that WoW did quite some time ago.  If not present on kill, do not have any option to loot items. 

Plain and very simple.

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Old 11-28-2011, 12:04 PM   #43
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[email protected] wrote:

They just need to institute the system that WoW did quite some time ago.  If not present on kill, do not have any option to loot items. 

Plain and very simple.

No, this is counter to the very thing that makes MMOs unique. I want a game that allows for players to develop their own economiy, and trade in goods and services. I want loot to be bought and sold, along with power-levelling, raid spots and quest updates. I want a game that thrives on emergent behavior, not one that tries to restrict it at every turn.

There's enough single-player games out there, we do not need MMOs to go down that path.

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:28 PM   #44
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Dasein wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

They just need to institute the system that WoW did quite some time ago.  If not present on kill, do not have any option to loot items. 

Plain and very simple.

No, this is counter to the very thing that makes MMOs unique. I want a game that allows for players to develop their own economiy, and trade in goods and services. I want loot to be bought and sold, along with power-levelling, raid spots and quest updates. I want a game that thrives on emergent behavior, not one that tries to restrict it at every turn.

There's enough single-player games out there, we do not need MMOs to go down that path.

 

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Old 11-29-2011, 12:54 AM   #45
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We never sold SLR in EQ1 and it worked perfectly.  It would work fine here too.  Players should only have the raid gear they earn themselves.  I completely disagree with you here.  There are plenty of micro economies working in this game outside of SLR.

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Old 11-29-2011, 01:30 AM   #46
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Two boxers dont take up group spots generally they run their low leveled toon with their geared 90 tank of some sort through dungeons ....  they don't want to group and aren't taking group spots away from anyone.

SLR is a double sided sword, good it allows peeps to get some gear when they are not able to get into a dungeon, bad side peeps get gear without earning the gear.  which in reality is a personal preference item,  run stuff get plat get some gear or run stuff kill mobs and get some gear.

If they fix the SLR item then they would likely have to lock groups, make the group that entered the dungeon stay as a group, which would kill elements of the game, i have lost count of the dungeons i've been in where one of the DPS'ers swaps out for a chanter or extra healer or when someone goes LD gets a call or has to leave for what ever reason. I dont think you can take SLR out of game.... unless you remove no-trade and heirloom tags then the guy who loots it brokers it which would also be fair but as previous posters have stated you will have farmers in the contested zones.

However one thing i've noticed the gear from contested kael isn't as good as gear from the kael instances.

Next i suppose we'll have posts condemning people who mentor down and run zones for aa grinding.

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Old 11-29-2011, 01:49 AM   #47
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Dasein wrote:

[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

chardz wrote:

i agree partly, i agree it looks like the two boxers are ruining the game

A simple solution is to make XP based on how much you contributed to the kill. Not simply being in the group when the kill is made.

This would make PL much more difficult. It also makes it more difficult for boxers because each box would need to contribute to the kill.

It would also make it so grouping on too easy content doesn't benefit the group because when the tank 1 hits the mob no one else gets XP.

How do you determine who contributed? How do heals, buffs, debuffs, power regen, and agro factor in to the kill?

oh pls, the EQ2 team does *not* need to start doing that on all kills.  some classes are high DPSers, others are not. 

furthermore, let us think back...  not too far back....  to the PQs.  remember the EQ2 team's solution to the AFKers?  remember how it was based on DPS and then they added healer's "contribution"?  yeahhh...... that didn't work out too well, now did it?

i won a DKP bid on an item in raid last week.  the assigned looter seemed to be really slow in giving me the item.   luckily, i checked my bag before i said something bc it quietly landed there.  i was shocked that that it was a brokerable item.  pls correct me if i'm wrong but pre-DOV, there were some heirloom items but it was not 99.9% of it listed as "no trade/heirloom".  the SLR is somewhat of a nuisance but it is the community's work around to give the piece to someone else who could use it.  i'm not opposed to letting others get gear.  i like others to have gear.  if more ppl had good gear, more PUGs would be a success.  i don't like it when SLR fills up chat; however, if they do it in auction, it doesnt bother me.

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Old 11-29-2011, 04:29 AM   #48
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I agree 100%. No-Trade, Heirloom and throw Lore in there too should all be removed from the game. The loot mechanics have never been enforced so all they do is hinder game play. Open the markets in the game and allow free trade on all items. 

And yes, I can complete the content. That really isnt the issue. Some of the issue SOE has attempted to rectify with shards, tokens and what other currency they could so that if you have junky luck and run an instance hundreds of times without getting the drop you want/need you can buy it from a merchant more than likely with the pile of shards you garnered in the mean time. But being able to trade the loot you did get for the items you want is much more preferable.

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Old 11-29-2011, 05:20 AM   #49
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I am in favor of open markets.  However, there are pitfalls associated with making no trade and heirloom items tradeable that have nothing to do with philosophy.  The supply of quality equipment would go up dramatically, because there would no longer be waste in the system where items get muted or set aside for alt#12.  This means that drop rates would have to be reduced to maintain some scarcity.  Much of the scarcity in the game revolves around getting the desired drops, and that barrier is removed.  Further, the demand for equipment for a given class archetype changes completely.  Some archetypes will have very inexpensive equipment, near the transmute value, while others will be prohibitively expensive.

These problems mean that making heirloom/no-trade tradeable can't be just turned on.  Either, all existing equipment would need to be kept heirloom/no-trade or the change would have to happen at the beginning of a major equipment upgrade cycle.  Next, drop rates would have to be cut dramatically, probably to 1/3.  Finally, drop rates would need to be balanced to be more proportional with demand.

I don't see it happening.

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Old 11-29-2011, 08:10 AM   #50
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gourdon wrote:

I am in favor of open markets.  However, there are pitfalls associated with making no trade and heirloom items tradeable that have nothing to do with philosophy.  The supply of quality equipment would go up dramatically, because there would no longer be waste in the system where items get muted or set aside for alt#12.  This means that drop rates would have to be reduced to maintain some scarcity.  Much of the scarcity in the game revolves around getting the desired drops, and that barrier is removed.  Further, the demand for equipment for a given class archetype changes completely.  Some archetypes will have very inexpensive equipment, near the transmute value, while others will be prohibitively expensive.

These problems mean that making heirloom/no-trade tradeable can't be just turned on.  Either, all existing equipment would need to be kept heirloom/no-trade or the change would have to happen at the beginning of a major equipment upgrade cycle.  Next, drop rates would have to be cut dramatically, probably to 1/3.  Finally, drop rates would need to be balanced to be more proportional with demand.

I don't see it happening.

I don't understand why it has to be scarce.

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Old 11-29-2011, 08:50 AM   #51
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Tigress wrote:

oh pls, the EQ2 team does *not* need to start doing that on all kills.  some classes are high DPSers, others are not. 

furthermore, let us think back...  not too far back....  to the PQs.  remember the EQ2 team's solution to the AFKers?  remember how it was based on DPS and then they added healer's "contribution"?  yeahhh...... that didn't work out too well, now did it?

i won a DKP bid on an item in raid last week.  the assigned looter seemed to be really slow in giving me the item.   luckily, i checked my bag before i said something bc it quietly landed there.  i was shocked that that it was a brokerable item.  pls correct me if i'm wrong but pre-DOV, there were some heirloom items but it was not 99.9% of it listed as "no trade/heirloom".  the SLR is somewhat of a nuisance but it is the community's work around to give the piece to someone else who could use it.  i'm not opposed to letting others get gear.  i like others to have gear.  if more ppl had good gear, more PUGs would be a success.  i don't like it when SLR fills up chat; however, if they do it in auction, it doesnt bother me.

That line right there is the reason I hate SLR, becuase it's flat out wrong. but it's a common assumption.

all the raid gear in the world is not going to make a poor player a good one. and having to loot it yourself, by beating the content yourself, at least verifies that you CAN play. You had to be able to tank/heal/contribute damage to a riad encounter without getting everyone killed in fail conditions or at least not getting yourself killed 24 odd plus times.

just like the other night. I did the easiest Kael instance for the first time tanking. we didn't clear but half the zone becuase the super raid geared healer couldn't keep me alive...to the point the rest of the group simply left. why did that happen? two possible reasons:

1) this person is a raider...but the toon they were on was a PLed alt that they knew little of how to play, hoping the raid gear they heirloomed over would cover it or

2) they were a poor player that bought thier gear.

now before people say it might have been my tanking...I asked the other groupmates after our 3rd death what I was doing wrong. how can I do a better job. and was told in no uncertain terms that I was not the problem.

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Old 11-29-2011, 09:44 AM   #52
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Ah, now I see what this topic was about.

Personally, it doesn't affect me.  Sure, I have someone in my guild who watches the Auction channel and scoops things up (she has a lot of plat) and is buying Drunder stuff to make her powerful.  But I still enjoy myself and have Auction turned off.

I've seen some nice jewlery on the broker that I can't get yet (we're a small guild so tackling those zones is difficult) but still enjoying the game.

And as another poster wrote, I to chrono down to quest and get items to transmute, and sell on the broker.  I wouldn't mind getting rid of the Heirloom, but having No-Trade makes certain things very unique.

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Old 11-29-2011, 11:21 AM   #53
agentsix

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Cloudrat wrote:

I don't understand why it has to be scarce.

Because if everyone drove a Porsche then it wouldn't be cool to drive a Porsche.

The human psyche is geared to noticing things that are different and unique. Without scarcity, gear would be even throughout the gameworld, and there would be less to strive for.

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Old 11-29-2011, 11:32 AM   #54
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The real problem with getting rid of "Heirloom" and "No Trade" classifications is that within 48 hours there'd be another thread replacing this one full of people whining that all the names are being farmed and the nasty people are selling gear on the broker at ridiculous prices.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is a growing number of players that would like to be able to right click a name and select a "Take Loot" option and just get it with no effort at all.  On second thoughts, maybe the right click would be too much effort:  maybe SOE should add something in options to turn on auto-loot so the mob gives up the loot automatically.

I remember some years ago looking at some of the better equipped toons and thinking that maybe if I worked for it, one day I'd have gear like that for my toon.  Seems that has changed to people now looking at better equipped toons and thinking that if SOE changed it so that gear could be bought on the broker they could have gear like it.

Sad, very sad.

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Old 11-30-2011, 03:40 AM   #55
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Cloudrat wrote:

gourdon wrote:

I am in favor of open markets.  However, there are pitfalls associated with making no trade and heirloom items tradeable that have nothing to do with philosophy.  The supply of quality equipment would go up dramatically, because there would no longer be waste in the system where items get muted or set aside for alt#12.  This means that drop rates would have to be reduced to maintain some scarcity.  Much of the scarcity in the game revolves around getting the desired drops, and that barrier is removed.  Further, the demand for equipment for a given class archetype changes completely.  Some archetypes will have very inexpensive equipment, near the transmute value, while others will be prohibitively expensive.

These problems mean that making heirloom/no-trade tradeable can't be just turned on.  Either, all existing equipment would need to be kept heirloom/no-trade or the change would have to happen at the beginning of a major equipment upgrade cycle.  Next, drop rates would have to be cut dramatically, probably to 1/3.  Finally, drop rates would need to be balanced to be more proportional with demand.

I don't see it happening.

I don't understand why it has to be scarce.

An economy is pointless if everything is easily attainable.  Then everybody logs on, pushes the easy button, plays with their new toys and gets bored because there are no better toys to get.  There need to be easy to get things that are less useful and progressively more expensive things that are more useful.  This is why the loot balance needs to be considered as well.

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