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Old 10-03-2014, 10:53 PM   #1
Xelgad

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Hey guys!

First off, allow me to welcome you to the Altar of Malice Beta and thank all of you for testing!

With that aside, I'd like to share with you some changes to Mitigation, Resists and Protection that you'll notice in Altar of Malice.

Physical Mitigation and Magical Resists
To start with, there is no change to physical mitigation or magical resists when you are fighting any enemy below level 104. Once you begin fighting higher level creatures, you will need higher mitigation and resists.

[IMG]

Mages and Scouts have had their self mitigation buffs improved with this change.

Priests have a new prestige ability that upgrades a spell to grant more physical mitigation to the group.

[IMG]

The new priest prestige ability helps gain higher magical resistances, however most of the magical resistance needed for higher end content will be gained via accessories. Keep in mind that we will not be using any "Absolute Resist Thresholds" like you have seen in Dreadscale's Maw or Fabled Deathtoll.

Protection
Protection now scales with your level - so expect to need higher protection shields to receive block chance equal to what you have at level 95. Level 100 shields will have double the protection of level 95 shields. Level 95 characters will experience no change.

Thanks again for beta testing and we look forward to your feedback and testing!

-Xelgad
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Old 10-08-2014, 01:38 PM   #2
Errrorr

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With this change in mind, would it be possible to have the Creature Conjuror guild amenity given some options? For example the level of mob to spawn, or the damage type if utilities?
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Old 10-08-2014, 05:44 PM   #3
Maergoth

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I'm sure we will be discussing this mitigation curve in no time.

As long as we aren't forced to play in the 70-75% category to survive, I'm sure it will be fine. Unless mit procs show up everywhere, or you can obtain more mit by sacrificing everything.. again.

As soon as you get anywhere near cap, you're chopping off significant chunks of incoming damage with just minor fluctuations in mitigation. Since mit isn't on diminishing returns still, those higher percents are still more significant than the lower percents.

Going from 0% mit to 1% mit is 1% damage reduction. Going from 74% mit to 75% mit is.. well, 4% damage reduction?

And when the base hit is somewhere between 5 and 10 million damage, that slight difference in mit between 74% and 75% translates to 50,000-100,000 damage per swing.

And yes, I know it's "Because Math", as I was told at SOELive.
I've never asked WHY math works that way.

Math does what math wants.

But why is mitigation a wonky stat to gear for, especially including procs which FURTHER increase fluctuation?

Because math.
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:43 PM   #4
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I would like to see this. The ability to control a test environment would be amazing for players. Right now what I see the CC in guilds being used for is summoning random epics to screw with your guild mates.

Looking over the mitigation where in the curves are you expecting content to be? I really do not want another continuation of needing to be in the 70-75% range to survive doing anything. A bit more open room let's players have fun if a zone's not too tedious and has a shot at a good item (and can be steamrolled by higher geared players) people will. That's what happened with Vasty Deep: Conservatory and The Library of Erudin, they were fast and fun zones. It's how Siren's Grotto fell short, too scripted and too much waiting.

I would like to see somewhere in the 60-70% range being ideal with boosts (that players have some control over) to push them higher. Tanks with mostly permanent Mit Buffs (like Guardian's Battle Cry) would be comined with a well timed Hunker Down or another Mit Temp to boost during a time where attacks are known to hit harder. Basically, I want to see more changes in fights that I can react to using my skills rather than having to "be at 100% all the time" which reduces it to stoneskin/invuln rotations.
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:28 PM   #5
FriggaWitch

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Greetings;
Just wondering why mitigation is a light blue stat like the others that can be altered thru reforging except there is currenty no way to change any of those to boost mit. I can sacrifce my mit for lets say ability modifier but not the other way around. What sense does this make?
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Old 10-08-2014, 09:33 PM   #6
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Scouts and Mages are getting more mitigation for themselves.. and priests are giving more mitigation to group members but NOT themselves... This sounds like priests are going to be incredibly squishy compared to everybody else since they're the only ones NOT getting mitigation boosts..
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:16 PM   #7
Kalika

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looks scary ...

Is there any mitigation increase on warden wolf form, we are supposed to have mitigation close to the scout ones.
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Old 10-09-2014, 07:29 PM   #8
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"Oh darn, I'm a priest and have low physical mit, I sure do hope I don't have to tank any mobs!"

I'm more happy with the fact that the priest buff affects fighters.
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:39 PM   #9
Maergoth

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Fighters should have to forfeit all aspects of doing anything in order to be enough of a meat shield to survive reliably. Obviously.

My whole opinion on mit is this: There are still thresholds to cross, even in a smooth curve. You are still trying to get enough to turn the average 1 shot into 2 shots (threshold), and 2 shots into 3 shots (threshold).

Practically all mobs in game currently 1 shot, 2 shot, or 3 shot. So you have created these thresholds by not utilizing those different "weapons" you built into mobs. And you have to take that into consideration when you ask tanks to build for mitigation, the amounts necessary to accomplish the intended effects, and the RNG involved with mob hit rates and damage spikes.

Increase the RNG of mob damage spikes and mitigation becomes less valuable, because it doesn't matter how hard the mob one shots you or two shots you.

At 2 million HP, If it hits for 10 million, mitigation doesnt' matter. If it hits for 1.9 million, mitigation doesn't matter unless you can reduce that hit down to 1 million. And the difference after the swing is to be made up for by healers, who just have to get you above the threshold before you get hit again. Which, often times, is not even possible.

For fighters, our HP bar is not measured in the millions of hit points. It's measured in swings. One, two, or three, depending on the mob. And mitigation / damage reduction just add one more consecutive swing of survivability, if you get enough of it.

That might not be the intent, but that is the reality. That's why I advocate for faster swings. It means mitigation is about more than reducing the spike. It actually becomes about mitigating your incoming damage amount, and rewards you for ANY you can obtain, not just whatever "swing threshold" you pass.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:23 PM   #10
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Great post but I will make one additional comment based on current style of play.

The higher your mit the easier it is for healers to get you back above the threshold because the gap is reduced.

I agree with the idea of faster hits but it will need to be reflected in changes to stoneskins (ie... making them proc at all due to current min hit requirements for them to proc). The only hits in the game that are killing me right now are the quick multi hits because my stoneskins become useless in my rotation.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:36 PM   #11
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Your healers healing you back up is irrelevant due to current avoidance mechanics. You have plenty of time to fill the hp bar of a tank who is paying attention in most situations. My monk can tank entire 5+ minute fights without getting hit once if he's lucky. Many plate tanks avoid about 90% of all attacks too. The only time this expansion I have ever personally died or seen a tank die due to not refilling his hp bar fast enough was tanking the 5 adds on the first named in Maw. And that's generally because those healers specifically just weren't casting heals to begin with.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:47 PM   #12
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No luck required. Monks can tank 1hr fight w/o popping out of green once (with the exception of when we rely on tenacity... which is when mitigation and healer threshold replenishment (as mentioned by Maer previously) comes into play).
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:58 PM   #13
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A tank can respond faster than a healer can, if they get hit. The pro strat is to just rotate saves, except one, which you use when you get hit once. Then healers can take their time to get you to full.

Honestly, healers have very little to do with keeping me alive. Fighters more than ever are in control of their survivability. MT group Healers are here for the group, to cure, and because healing a tank outside of group is lame. I'm confident I could keep myself alive using heal procs at this point. Unless we're playing with uncontrollable, random one-shots. Which.. is the way it's been for a while now.
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:45 AM   #14
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Very true. That's how all of Drunder was given every boss was on a one or two shot basis. Many of the old HM's felt that way and it's why Wards became so powerful and required the HP-Change to mix it up. The fact plain is that Tanks need to survive hits. We don't care how much the hit is for unless were trying to reflect it (Faith/Perfect Counter).

"Tug-O-War" HP Bars was given to anyone but tanks. In ToV everyone in the raid yo-yo'd except the tank if they could help it. This is because while it takes three or five consecutive ticks of a DoT to kill half the raid, it only takes 1 Tick + 1 Melee hit to kill the Main Tank. If the goal is to make HP and Mitigation matter then mobs have to hit for less and hit faster (2 second delay vs 6 second or what have you). Enemies have these scripts/controls built into them. Enemy Class used to matter a lot beyond "It's a Brawler Mob so luv you casters hate you melee's".
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Old 10-10-2014, 06:53 PM   #15
Lemilla

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Want to know the math?

The mitigation formula, both on live and for the values Xelgad just posted, is as follows:

Mitigation% = (Mitigation - MobOffset) / (1,002843 * (Mitigation - MobOffset) + StaticOffset)

Where StaticOffset is 4750 on Live and 8400 against level 104+ mobs on Beta.
MobOffset is 3350 on Live against level 103 Epic x4's and about 8400 against level 108 mobs in Beta.
This formula only applies for mitigation values equal to or greater than MobOffset. Below that, the effect is completely lineair with the following formula:

Mitigation% = (Mitigation - MobOffset) * LineairFactor
Where LineairFactor is 0,0001094 on live against level 103 Epic x4's and 0,000058 against level 108 mobs on Beta.

This results in the caps for mitigation (75%) being at 18800 on Live and at about 34200 on Beta.

Against level 108 mobs on Beta, the results can be seen in the following graphs:
[IMG]

In the first graph, the blue dots are the values posted by Xelgad and the red line is the formula

The second graph shows by which percentage any incoming damage is reduced, compared to having 1 less point of mitigation. As you can see, it does have some diminishing returns, but just like currently on Live you just want as much mitigation as you can get, up to the point where it doesn't make a difference in the amount of swings it takes to kill you.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:31 PM   #16
Maergoth

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The cap on live is, most certainly, not 18800. Maybe it's supposed to be, but that is not where it is. Against one of the creature conjuror mobs, there is zero change in incoming damage when gaining mitigation well before 18800. I'd have to test it again to get the exact number, but I think it was.. going from 17500 to 18500 resulted in absolutely nothing.

Yet, going from 16500 mitigation to 17500 (Which is a reasonably common fluctuation) is the difference between 1m hits and 1.1-1.2m hits. Maybe the above math doesn't account for that level of discrepancy, but the last thing I was told is that, internally, there IS no such thing as "18000" mitigation or "16000" mitigation. That is a number artificially created for players to work with, but the calculations are done using much smaller numbers, gear levels and player levels changing all of it.

Hopefully the larger mitigation numbers will smooth the "chunkiness" of it out a bit. Twice as much mit hopefully means the current levels of fluctuation result in half as much impact on survivability. Unless of course larger mitigation numbers means larger amounts of fluctuation with upgraded procs and temps.

I just hate the "Required Mitigation for Survival" being so close to the hard cap, I guess. There is no overcap bonus on mitigation, so in order to guarantee enough to survive, fighters should forfeit their mitigation procs and temps. On top of all the other things we can't gear for if we choose.

At 14000 mit, I can proc/temp up to cap. But it's not sustainable. So I gain more. At 16000 mit, I constantly go way over cap.. sometimes I've been as high as 26,000. It just isn't a fun thing to gear for, at all, right now. It's really 2-dimensional.
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Old 10-11-2014, 01:40 AM   #17
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Having to be "at cap" is aggravating on stats especially for the Fighter Classes as they tend to need every stat in the game in some effect it can be critically hard to balance a Fighter out right. As Maergoth said, having 26,000 Mit due to temps is rather disheartening knowing that you are so far into diminished that you're shaving off less than .001% damage with a difference of 5-10K Mit.

I can hope bigger numbers reduce fluctuation differences in incoming damage but again, it's just a hope. I know gearing a Fighter in early ToV was a nightmare at the start.
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Old 10-11-2014, 08:20 PM   #18
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I would gladly support a system in which 26000 was into some sort of diminishing return. However, mitigation is a relatively linear HARD CAP stat, at 17.5k or so. Even being generous, it's easy to fluctuate between 18000 and 24000.

People asked for mit procs to make it easier to obtain enough mitigation to survive. So they gave us a ton of mit procs. But "people" fail to realize that procs aren't always up, I guess. The best plan of action as a tank is to, ideally, have 17.5k static mit, fully buffed, and zero fluctuation. Or to stack enough procs that you're AVERAGING OUT to mit cap. And in order for that to happen, you will constantly have to go above the cap, to make up for the times you are below it.

And what does that mean for mit temps? It means if you are using them, you don't have enough mit. And if you have enough mit, you are wasting your mit temps.

That is why tank survivability is a gigantic pain in the ***.

Because that, as an accepted result of this system, is flawed ideology.
That is the result of slow-swinging mobs.

For all tanks. Avoidance has always been king because it bypasses the idea of mitigation in this game. And it is sad when mitigation is less reliable than a chance to avoid an attack.
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:32 PM   #19
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ok today looking at this change I do have a few concerns about this from a non tank point of view as well.

cause just looking at a single group buffs your getting

9500 resists from x2 healers
2316 resists from bard
1170 resists from a chanter if they bothered to upgrade it to expert
3951 self resist buffs no jewelry on
16937 total so far
6012 adding in current jewelry adornments when you do put jewelry on
22949 TOTAL

Now looking at the graph above and you even posted what most of the stats will come from gear.

using not the max but what id call a decent level of 350000
350000-22949 - 327051 resist still needed.

in order to get this you are going to have to have jewelry with roughly 47k resist on each piece of jewelry wont this screw up green stats on gear just a little bit and is there going to be enough jewelry out there to ensure players can get to these benchmarks listed here.
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:49 PM   #20
Maergoth

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I'm sure jewelry will have tons of resists on it.
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:54 PM   #21
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AoM jewelry will be ToV jewelry with +30k resists, and half the WDB

kono
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:09 AM   #22
Uncle

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AoM jewelry will be ToV jewelry with +30k resists, and half the WDB

kono

all kidding aside kinda what im hinting at remember loot generator 3k always gives something and takes something else away in return
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:24 AM   #23
Maergoth

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For blue stats, yes. Everything is generated with a total allowed alotment. For green stats like resists, they have set values based on quality. The only exception is NO-STA gear which apparently isn't sticking around anyway.
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:27 AM   #24
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Or, you know, just maybe, mobs won't be balanced around having the maximum resists, and this system is meant to last for a few years? Just a thought.
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Old 10-14-2014, 01:21 AM   #25
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That may be enjoyable. If earlier content is designed to be outgrown, then updated later to make running it while slighly (or majorly) overgeared enjoyable.

That is where good/enjoyable fights help a lot.
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Old 10-17-2014, 06:09 PM   #26
Kalika

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I don't really care much because they fill fix the mecanic but seeing my monk mercenary with 130K resist and me with 80 K is sort of puzzling ;-)
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Old 10-18-2014, 01:10 AM   #27
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Well there goes all that plat I spent reforging to shift points around and swapping gear to inc block while maintaining mit level. Back to the drawing board and feeling a bit single-purposed. That's alright, navigating how far up each diminishing return curve I was at was getting bothersome. I do enough excel sheets at work. However for the sake of supporting the argument of those around me, it would be beneficial, if not absolutely necessary to have a variable level testing device that would produce stable results for testing. I think the amenity would be the perfect way to do this, that or else expand a different system like the arena where you could use yourself as avatar and select from a variety of levels and dmg types for the boss you would be fighting.

It was nice for a while to think in addition to wearing really tough armor, my character was also deflecting, avoiding, parrying, et al. to decrease incoming damage, but I was starting to miss just standing there behind the thickest wall possible.
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:37 PM   #28
Kalika

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That's why I would love several tier for the same instance ... easy (casual ungeared people, random group compo with a tank and a healer), moderate (heroic geared people, decent group composition), hard (raid geared and even advanced raid geared people with a quite optimized group composition).
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Old 10-21-2014, 03:52 PM   #29
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I'm honestly puzzled as to why they chose to move away from EM and HM raid instances. I would think that from a development perspective it's more efficient to produce a HM version of a zone rather than a whole separate, harder zone. Don't get me wrong, as a player, i'd rather have more different zones and encounters, but I didn't at all mind EM/HM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 04:55 PM   #30
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Agree. But the idea of hardmode encounters buried inside easymode zones is kind of annoying.

Stick to whole zones with hardmode versions, imo :/
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