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Old 10-26-2012, 12:09 PM   #1
Faildozer
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I am afraid this is going to be the first expansion that when it launches will be cleared within 1-2 weeks by multiple guilds. Right now everything is too easy. I am not asking for another drunder HM where the encounters were a roadblock until they were nerfed but make these encounters genuinely difficult. If nobody is killing them after a few weeks, and everything is working properly, that is GOOD!

As things stand currently, top end guilds are clearing content faster than the Dev's can make it so this was a good chance for them to slow us down a bit while they work on the next content. The top 3 guilds have had all of POW on farm for the last few months and Skyshrine while maybe challenging for a few weeks doesnt even offer anything worth going their for except gloves which are SLIGHTLY better than pow trash. Then sleepers tomb was set to come out and everybody was pumped because it was new content and we could do something else each week. 5 or so guilds cleared the challenge mode on the first night within 30 mins of working on the mob.

I know you arent trying to make anything as difficult as POW but you need to make difficult stuff that will keep us raiding for a few more months. The reason POW was difficult and isnt cleared by many guilds isnt because the scripts are too involved but because they require ridiculous power checks and dps checks that a lot of guilds cant meet due to the declining player population and the overall talent within that population being way down compared to previous expansions. These encounters have a chance to be fun but a fun encounter with no challenge isnt very fun after the first or second time doing them.

I would recommend looking at the underfoot raid zone especially wing 2 and 3 for good ideas because those fights were amazing and challenging. Right now if the expansion were to launch with mobs being about where they are on beta (even with added buff packages and some retooling) it would be cleared within 1-2 weeks by 10 or more guilds. I know I am going to quit if this happens, not because i dont enjoy this game but because I CANT not have anything to work towards. I know a lot of people in my guild and probably Equillibrium/revs/shoukin feel the same way. The only reason a lot of us havent quit yet is holding out hope for this expansion.

I know it is asking a lot of you guys and you may catch flak for it but I would rather have encounters be too difficult and struggle on them even if a lot of guilds arent killing them right away than to just steamroll over the entire expansion and have to wait for new content every month just so we arent mindlessly farming gear for mains, then apps, then alts, then our plat splits because thats not fun for anybody.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:33 PM   #2
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Do they have HM versions of the new raid zones?  That is apparently what they need.  If the raids are tuned to be challenging to the top hardcore raid guilds, then they are out of reach for the majority of the players in the game.  If they are tuned to be challenging for casual raiding, then they are too easy-peasy for hardcore raiders.  It's completely understandable that "hardcore raiders" don't want new content they just blast through in a short amount of time and they would like a challenge for their time and effort, but there also needs to be new content that casual raiders actually have a chance at defeating.  I see no way to easily balance the situation without 2 versions of each raid, or progression in raid zones that makes sense.. this one is easiest.. the next one more difficult.. the next one even more difficult.. etc.  Though, to make progressing raid zones sustainable for the hc raiders, you would need HM versions of each of those as well.  It's a tricky situation.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:39 PM   #3
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they have challenge mode versions of 3 named in the 2 raid zones we did last night and even casuals are going to find this content not very challenging.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:50 PM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:

they have challenge mode versions of 3 named in the 2 raid zones we did last night and even casuals are going to find this content not very challenging.

Are buff packages on the mobs yet?

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #5
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Ulrichvon wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

they have challenge mode versions of 3 named in the 2 raid zones we did last night and even casuals are going to find this content not very challenging.

Are buff packages on the mobs yet?

That's a good question.  That could make all the difference.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:59 PM   #6
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I would expect everything is easier right now for testing/bug-finding.  Gninja posted in the Baroddas thread that that mob would be getting tuned soon. 

If everything is as it is right now, yes, the content will be devoured in two weeks.  I'm sure the encounters will be tightened up for better testing.

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:57 PM   #7
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Think Gninja said most of the buff packages weren't on the majority of raid mobs atm....would wait and see in a few days as they add them...they might be as you said even with the buff packages akin to pushovers...dont know yet.

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Old 10-26-2012, 02:27 PM   #8
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honestly i made the OP taking into consideration the mobs are going to have buff packages and I really think the only mob that wont be killed within the first 2 weeks will be 4 rune drinal but it could be easier/harder than what I am expecting.

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Old 10-26-2012, 03:01 PM   #9
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Currently we are in the "make sure the mechanics are working" mode. We will be tuning shortly after that. If we made them extremely challenging right off the bat we might not even get to a place where we can even test any of the mechanics. I assure you the chellenge mode content will be chellenging SMILEY Even some of the normal mode stuff toward the end of the progression will be challenging.

That said. If there is something specific you feel a specific fight needs feel free to mention it and we can take a look. The communication lines are definately open.

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Old 10-26-2012, 04:35 PM   #10
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this is why guilds like NPU use to be looked down up on.  because they got to test dumbed down raid content and knew the strats before it ever hit live, even if the encounters are "tuned" it's stil the same encounter.   

   in short..   yes this is going to make it easier for your raid force to kill the mob on live but it is how it has always been and that's why guilds like dissolution that had no dev connections/access to beta/alpha raid content had more respect from players than the fore mentioned.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:04 PM   #11
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Dav, if you think ANY fight in this game takes more than 1-2 pulls to figure out what is going on then you are sorely mistaken. We arent raiding this stuff because we want l33t infoz, we are doing it because we A. have had everything on farm for months now and are desperate for anything different and B. would like to be able to give feedback and input on these encounters when it is easier to get things changed.

If you actually read anything I wrote im not trying at all to make this stuff easier for our guild but the exact opposite.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:07 PM   #12
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Gninja wrote:

Currently we are in the "make sure the mechanics are working" mode. We will be tuning shortly after that. If we made them extremely challenging right off the bat we might not even get to a place where we can even test any of the mechanics. I assure you the chellenge mode content will be chellenging Even some of the normal mode stuff toward the end of the progression will be challenging.

That said. If there is something specific you feel a specific fight needs feel free to mention it and we can take a look. The communication lines are definately open.

Thats fair Gninja and I am glad to hear that you are looking to make the progression difficult even starting with end mobs not on challenge mode. We will continue to do testing and hopefully these fights will be closer to what they will be on live so we can get an idea of the actual degree of difficulty and what can be adjusted or potentially added.

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Old 10-28-2012, 02:01 AM   #13
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The way I see it DoV for the most part was way too hard as few guilds cleared the Hardmode statue or Hardmode drunder before the level cap increase. Even fewer cleared PoW even though it has been out more than 1 year. But now it looks like CoE is going to the opposite extreme. Everything just seems way to easy and will be cleared in the first week. Even after they add buff packages this content is going to be very easy. There don't seem to be many hard fail conditions at all with very simple scripts.

There should be a place to find a happy medium. The TSO and SF raids were pretty good in terms of ballance between easy and hard. That is the level of dificulty they should be striving for.

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Old 10-28-2012, 03:50 AM   #14
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There should be a place to find a happy medium. The TSO and SF raids were pretty good in terms of ballance between easy and hard. That is the level of dificulty they should be striving for.

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Old 10-28-2012, 02:21 PM   #15
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When adding the buff packages and tuning the raid and heroic content, please go back to the school of thought of leaning towards too hard vs. too easy.  

I can't speak for everyone, but at least for me, I'd much rather get stuck on an encounter that's too hard and have to wait on a nerf to progress, than steamroll through the content like Skyshrine and then have nothing to work towards.

Err on the side of too difficult please (too difficult != impossible).

Thanks!

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Old 10-30-2012, 02:33 AM   #16
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6 guilds world-wide have killed everything.

Lets cater to those peoples  that'll keep eq2 alive for a long time

Tips/Suggestions

  • More "fun" and interesting, interactive scripted fights.
  • Less cure intensive fights. Pre-Cure infested fights does not equal fun for healers...
  • Detriments where if 1 person doesn't get cured fast enough wipes the entire raid is not a good idea... Kill the group or person not cured, not the entire raid...
  • Less "luck" factors. I.E. Co-op strike adds should not have a chance to spawn ON the MT...
  • Fights should not have to rely on ACT (Advanced Combat Tracker) at all. I.E. 4 people get cursed, 2 have to be cured within 2-4 seconds or raid wipe. Who comes up with those mechanics seriously? The reaction times without ACT is near impossible...
  • Less gigantic power drains... seriously, enough is enough...

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Old 10-30-2012, 05:14 PM   #17
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Mohee wrote:

6 guilds world-wide have killed everything.

Lets cater to those peoples  that'll keep eq2 alive for a long time

Tips/Suggestions

  • More "fun" and interesting, interactive scripted fights.
  • Less cure intensive fights. Pre-Cure infested fights does not equal fun for healers...
  • Detriments where if 1 person doesn't get cured fast enough wipes the entire raid is not a good idea... Kill the group or person not cured, not the entire raid...
  • Less "luck" factors. I.E. Co-op strike adds should not have a chance to spawn ON the MT...
  • Fights should not have to rely on ACT (Advanced Combat Tracker) at all. I.E. 4 people get cursed, 2 have to be cured within 2-4 seconds or raid wipe. Who comes up with those mechanics seriously? The reaction times without ACT is near impossible...
  • Less gigantic power drains... seriously, enough is enough...

This exactly is the point.  If we see more along the lines of Drunder HM and PoW, that is not going to strengthen EQ2's lease on life.  I by no means do not want to see easy content but I want to see inner zone progression.

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Old 10-30-2012, 06:16 PM   #18
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Mohee wrote:

6 guilds world-wide have killed everything.

Lets cater to those peoples  that'll keep eq2 alive for a long time

Tips/Suggestions

  • More "fun" and interesting, interactive scripted fights.
  • Less cure intensive fights. Pre-Cure infested fights does not equal fun for healers...
  • Detriments where if 1 person doesn't get cured fast enough wipes the entire raid is not a good idea... Kill the group or person not cured, not the entire raid...
  • Less "luck" factors. I.E. Co-op strike adds should not have a chance to spawn ON the MT...
  • Fights should not have to rely on ACT (Advanced Combat Tracker) at all. I.E. 4 people get cursed, 2 have to be cured within 2-4 seconds or raid wipe. Who comes up with those mechanics seriously? The reaction times without ACT is near impossible...
  • Less gigantic power drains... seriously, enough is enough...

PLEASE!!!  No more power drains!  /head desk

I'm the single Coercer in my raid, and while I can keep the raid fed (not easy), the fights like Ingolfa (/wrists) and the trash that drain, and others...omg.  Now the guild leader is recruiting another Coercer because the fights currently just...well, /wrists.  We did Ingolfa with me, 2 Mystics, 2 Troubs, and a lot of necro-candy.  I really don't want a repeat of this sort of fight, that debuff that hits from the get go is horrid.

I have to agree greatly with the other tips/suggestions.  I don't want easy handholding, but making it to the point that casuals have such a hard time...not fun.

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Old 10-30-2012, 06:37 PM   #19
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You still have to cater the game towards the endgame audience just as much as you have to cater it towards the middle audience. Nobody is asking for another POW or even launch drunder HM which was broken and way out of sync with content before it. We are asking that stuff be genuinely difficult and pushes back instead of falling over. An expansion where its not guaranteed anybody that can form 3grps of people will clear all the named. I would be happy with a TSO tiered progression with challenge mode mobs being difficult and having their own tiered progression and all this is supplemented with avatars.

That looks to be their goal and the devs to this point have been very open to feedback and tuning these encounters so that they are going to scale in difficulty within each zone and wont be easy for pugs ot just mow them down. They arent overly difficult from a script standpoint but definately take some thought when fighting them. A big thing I like is on a few named they give raids the choice to do 1 thing or the other depending on their raid force.

At first i was skeptical about this expansion and its staying power, now im just like lets see what they do with it. I hope more guilds get on here and run stuff and post feedback so we can help make this game better.

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:04 PM   #20
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add in power management fights like VS in RoK.  

add in running, jumping and avoiding geometry like RT1234

add in dps check adds like you have been

add in heal intensive mobs that require all out max healing to tanks and groups to a lesser degree but not aoe or avoidable. no cure crap either.

add in mini games to encounters..  i think it would be cool

incorporate crafting into raiding, give crafters some value like you use to.

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:09 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

You still have to cater the game towards the endgame audience just as much as you have to cater it towards the middle audience. Nobody is asking for another POW or even launch drunder HM which was broken and way out of sync with content before it. We are asking that stuff be genuinely difficult and pushes back instead of falling over. An expansion where its not guaranteed anybody that can form 3grps of people will clear all the named. I would be happy with a TSO tiered progression with challenge mode mobs being difficult and having their own tiered progression and all this is supplemented with avatars.

That looks to be their goal and the devs to this point have been very open to feedback and tuning these encounters so that they are going to scale in difficulty within each zone and wont be easy for pugs ot just mow them down. They arent overly difficult from a script standpoint but definately take some thought when fighting them. A big thing I like is on a few named they give raids the choice to do 1 thing or the other depending on their raid force.

At first i was skeptical about this expansion and its staying power, now im just like lets see what they do with it. I hope more guilds get on here and run stuff and post feedback so we can help make this game better.

avatars should not supplement they should be the end game.   tbh they should not be killable until you clear all instance content and when you do then you can get an item used to kill avatars from the end boss.  

 that will keep the content uncleared longer and will give some options to guilds who can't take part in a call list.   ie.  they can use their item to try and kill the avatar during raid times.   of course it would still contested but at least they could maybe get a pull in.

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Old 10-31-2012, 01:06 AM   #22
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Avatars are end game but will never be harder than instance nameds just by virtue of you dont have as much time to work on them. From the 1 we tested and the few that they have now they will be difficult and have an interesting script but the hardest part for most guilds will be getting enough people to kill them before some other guild does... Well that wont be difficult on a lot of servers but it could definately breed competition and get some guilds to get their act together.

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Old 10-31-2012, 04:15 AM   #23
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/agree Please no more power drains! It makes using Manaburn as a Wizard such a tricky task. I was actually very excited for the Prestige ability to let me feed my group 3% power every 10 seconds, but now that has been taken away. So now I can't help my guild with these kinds of fights. My only hope right now is that given the loss of letting Sorcerors help power feed, that power drain fights won't be common anymore.The curing situation is nuts. I certainly woulndn't want to play a healer thse days. Speaking of curing, I remember the days before any priests had 2 group cures. Healers were generally better off back then. The real imbalance among the healer classes has come from the fact that only certain ones can dual cure. With this expansion, Templar, Inquisitor, Fury and Warden will all be able to solo heal a group, but Mystic and Defiler will not. My suggestion: change the shaman SF AA Witchdoctor's Herbal Recipe to give overcap reuse speed to the shaman group cure spells. Then all healers will be (theoretically at least) equal with curing.

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Old 10-31-2012, 12:39 PM   #24
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[email protected] wrote:

You still have to cater the game towards the endgame audience just as much as you have to cater it towards the middle audience. Nobody is asking for another POW or even launch drunder HM which was broken and way out of sync with content before it. We are asking that stuff be genuinely difficult and pushes back instead of falling over. An expansion where its not guaranteed anybody that can form 3grps of people will clear all the named.

This.  And apply that to the heroic zones as well.

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Old 10-31-2012, 01:11 PM   #25
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I don't agree with you guys at all.  As a matter of fact i'm going to take a quote from the op. 

Here it is "so we arent mindlessly farming gear" 

That statement right there i feel is the base of the problem.  X mobs ae in y mobs zone doesn't actually need to hit 20% harder at all.

mindlessly farming gear..  basically you know everything that's going to happen.  and you don't even have to look at your monitor.  20 seconds in memwipe then snap, 38 seconds in tower of stone 50 seconds in snap, 70 seconds in tower of stone.  If you could just record your keystrokes and button pushes into a macro.  You could run your toon with a macro the next time you fight x mob.  I find this.. the greatest problem.. not that.. stuff doesnt hit hard enough.

And .. if your going to make a script.... dear god.. make it so everyone has to actually do the script..  the actual script.. not just dps it down before the bad stuff happens.  DPS should not keep you from actually doing the fight the way it was designed.

IF you add randomness..make it not 1 shot people.  I would kill for anything different.. interupt a spell cast or you get adds.  ae effects you can actually dodge.  like an overlay on the floor as hes casting.  fighting a group that all have different abilities?  and the fight changes based on which one you kill first.  YOu guys are imaginative..  just show us!

Imagine this if you will.. imagine playing monopoly.. and everyone always lands on the same square, always buys the same properties, and always builds the same houses, everytime.     How much would you play monopoly?

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