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Old 02-18-2012, 02:22 PM   #31
Freejazzlive

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Davngr1 wrote:

yes, beastlord isn't any harder to play than other dps classes but it's not any easier

Nonsense: Beastlord is definitely easier to play than Swashie or Brigand, since you have far fewer positionals or attacks requiring stealth. There isn't a single thing justifying BL DPS .... except for SOE's desire to not anger those who bought AoD strictly for the BL.

You need to face a simple fact about EQ2 game balance: historically, SOE has never, ever, ever buffed up other classes. They have always nerfed the ones which stand out. There's a good reason for this: if you buff up the other classes, you're buffing them past the content. It's thus much easier, & more sensible, to nerf the class which is standing out. Thus, it is almost inevietable that BLs will be nerfed, & since that's true, it ought to happen sooner than later.

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Old 02-18-2012, 03:21 PM   #32
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Freejazzlive wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

yes, beastlord isn't any harder to play than other dps classes but it's not any easier

Nonsense: Beastlord is definitely easier to play than Swashie or Brigand, since you have far fewer positionals or attacks requiring stealth.

Wish I could do nothing but faceroll my keyboard and watch for jousts or go AFK and auto attack only on my BL and hit the same kind of numbers on my comparably geared brig, swash, and assassin.

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Old 02-18-2012, 11:01 PM   #33
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Beastlords are actually the hardest class to play and get high dps number by far,  you have to remember the people pulling those big parses have gmed all their pets which probably takes about twice what it takes to get 320 aa maybe even 3 times.

also most of our big primals and advantages all require positioning or stealth and managing your feral rampage level vs the drain takes paying constant attention to your savagry levels.

The other thing is people are whining about 700 or 800k dps beastlords on that burn fight when I have seen an assassin hit 900k on that same fight when everyone puts their dps buffs on them, that fight is not a realistic test of a classes dps.

Like any other classes beastlords have flaws as well, the most noticable that any class can out dps at ranged even an assassin with half the gear a beastlord has would outdps him on a ranged fight.  They also have no aoe dps abilities to speak of that dont require savagry where again any other class even an assassin will outdamage a beastlord on aoe fights.  The other thing is that beastlords require their pet to be alive to do damage which takes a lot of micro managing on any fight with aoes or cures since they get no pet cure. 

Your talking about parses on a fight thats cherry picked for beastlord dps thats never a reliable parsing fight anyways because if you put all your dps buffs on one dpser of course their going to have insane dps that fight.

Of course they parse high on purely single target fight that is not aoe heavy so they do not have to worry about their pet as much.  If you look at the average raid fight beastlords rank pretty evenly with the other dps classes with them being lower or lowest on multiple mob fights or fights where there is a lot of aoe damage with them shining on single target dps where they can stay in close constantly.

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Old 02-19-2012, 01:29 AM   #34
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Freejazzlive wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

yes, beastlord isn't any harder to play than other dps classes but it's not any easier

Nonsense: Beastlord is definitely easier to play than Swashie or Brigand, since you have far fewer positionals or attacks requiring stealth. There isn't a single thing justifying BL DPS .... except for SOE's desire to not anger those who bought AoD strictly for the BL.

You need to face a simple fact about EQ2 game balance: historically, SOE has never, ever, ever buffed up other classes. They have always nerfed the ones which stand out. There's a good reason for this: if you buff up the other classes, you're buffing them past the content. It's thus much easier, & more sensible, to nerf the class which is standing out. Thus, it is almost inevietable that BLs will be nerfed, & since that's true, it ought to happen sooner than later.

 maybe the utility can't be justified but the damage is acceptable as long other dps classes get a some new abilities to be brought up to BL current level.

 brigs aren't any harder to play than BL or any other scout/mage.  they all play differently and the fact that you can absolutly screw up and parse terribad is proof that they aren't a face roll class.     gear/buffs being equal of course since gear is so dam overpowerd right now.

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Old 02-19-2012, 02:39 AM   #35
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The thing is it is mainly on kolskeggr and gunnr where beastlords parse abnormally high 90% of the endgame fights beastlords are perfectly balanced and parse evenly with other dps depending on the fights mechanics

The other thing is the other classes should get their mythical upgrade in april when dov part 2 comes out, thats one reason beastlords parse better than the other classes is because they have a much better weapon.

Also just because a beastlord parsed 900k and the next person was 700k that tells you nothing, what buffs did the bl have what buffs did the second class have did the mob have high magic resist, most of the parses you see on eq2flames are artifially inflated by having the person in an ideal group for them with the best buffs on them.

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Old 02-19-2012, 11:18 AM   #36
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Funny when two monthes ago i claimed that my BL test was ridiculously OP people denied.

Raising other t1 dps will raise issues : agro , non t1 classes lagging backward etc ....

Except ajusting all classes i don't see a solution, Tuning down Blord would be way easier.

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Old 02-19-2012, 11:47 AM   #37
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Davngr1 wrote:

the fact that you can absolutly screw up and parse terribad is proof that they aren't a face roll class. 

It's more difficult to screw up as a BL than as a Brigand. The class is simply too versatile & too powerful for itself.

I'm willing to concede that a level 90 BL is probably more difficult than a level 40 BL, but I'm having an extremely hard time believing that it's "the hardest class to play," as another poster claimed.

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Old 02-19-2012, 11:50 AM   #38
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Davngr1 wrote:

 maybe the utility can't be justified but the damage is acceptable as long other dps classes get a some new abilities to be brought up to BL current level.

SOE does not, historically, respond to an OP class by buffing similar classes. I've already explained why they don't, & why it's not even a good idea to do so.

Instead, SOE has historically responded to OP classes by nerfing the OP class, & that is almost certainly what will be done with BL "soon."

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Old 02-19-2012, 07:33 PM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

Funny when two monthes ago i claimed that my BL test was ridiculously OP people denied.

Raising other t1 dps will raise issues : agro , non t1 classes lagging backward etc ....

Except ajusting all classes i don't see a solution, Tuning down Blord would be way easier.

 BL's aren't that far ahead.   dev's just made it way too easy to get good weapons/gear as a beastlord by making it part of their epic quest and giving them mythical weapons from a mob that is currently being killed. 

  i'm almost certain that with these small changes and or with other "new abilities" other t1 classes would fall in line.

  i'm not totally against all the other classes getting some new stuff as well since in fact it has been a year since the last AA were added.

Freejazzlive wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

 maybe the utility can't be justified but the damage is acceptable as long other dps classes get a some new abilities to be brought up to BL current level.

SOE does not, historically, respond to an OP class by buffing similar classes. I've already explained why they don't, & why it's not even a good idea to do so.

Instead, SOE has historically responded to OP classes by nerfing the OP class, & that is almost certainly what will be done with BL "soon."

  wrong..  soe usually nerfs said classes and boost all the others at the same time and that should not happen to beastlords.

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Old 02-20-2012, 12:32 AM   #40
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Davngr1 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Funny when two monthes ago i claimed that my BL test was ridiculously OP people denied.

Raising other t1 dps will raise issues : agro , non t1 classes lagging backward etc ....

Except ajusting all classes i don't see a solution, Tuning down Blord would be way easier.

 BL's aren't that far ahead.   dev's just made it way too easy to get good weapons/gear as a beastlord by making it part of their epic quest and giving them mythical weapons from a mob that is currently being killed. 

  i'm almost certain that with these small changes and or with other "new abilities" other t1 classes would fall in line.

  i'm not totally against all the other classes getting some new stuff as well since in fact it has been a year since the last AA were added.

Freejazzlive wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

 maybe the utility can't be justified but the damage is acceptable as long other dps classes get a some new abilities to be brought up to BL current level.

SOE does not, historically, respond to an OP class by buffing similar classes. I've already explained why they don't, & why it's not even a good idea to do so.

Instead, SOE has historically responded to OP classes by nerfing the OP class, & that is almost certainly what will be done with BL "soon."

  wrong..  soe usually nerfs said classes and boost all the others at the same time and that should not happen to beastlords.

Maybe that should not happen to BL but we know its going to one way or another .

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Old 02-20-2012, 02:01 AM   #41
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Freejazzlive wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

the fact that you can absolutly screw up and parse terribad is proof that they aren't a face roll class. 

It's more difficult to screw up as a BL than as a Brigand. The class is simply too versatile & too powerful for itself.

I'm willing to concede that a level 90 BL is probably more difficult than a level 40 BL, but I'm having an extremely hard time believing that it's "the hardest class to play," as another poster claimed.

Cause it's not. It's not as easy as a Dirge, but it's pretty dang close. If your thinking a Bst is hard to play then you should probably quit tbh. 

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Old 02-20-2012, 06:33 AM   #42
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In equal gear with fully mastered toons on average beastlords perform about the same overall on a raid compared to other t1's they do the best on burn fights with little jousting and aoes or cures but tend to be below the other dps classes on any fights that their pet will die from aoe attacks.   For instance any jousting fights actually lower a beastlords dps conciderably compared to other t1 classes because they can not keep up feral rampage levels easily and have no real ranged dps.

I think a big part of the issue is a lot of players just look at the parse or play a beastlord up to 40 and have no idea how the endgame works or exactly how complicated beastlords mechanics really are when you look at them in depth, like how they have to grandmaster at least 6 pets to do that much dps which takes a long time and how most of the end game primals they use are actually positional or require stealth.

I honestly think that in feral they are tuned about right, they require a lot more work than people think to put out those big numbers.  you have a stacking buff that you have to manage that drains your feral rampage bar and have to gear accordingly to be able to keep it at those levels with enough recast to get 3 skills off in less than 2 seconds every time to pull off those numbers and keep your rampage level up, its actually fairly easy to mess up the timing and have to redo getting your feral rampage level back up, which is where a lot of their dps comes from.

I do agree that the spiritual stance is a little overpowered, I think that they need to nerf the autoattack dps a lot more you do in it by about 15% in its current form and decide whether they want it to be a tanky stance or a healing stance, as it seems to be in between the two right now, and if they go with a more healing orientated stance they should nerf the dps by about 30% in that stance.

They should also remove the ability to swap stances so fast by adding a 15 second cooldown, that would fix a lot of issues people have with them having dps and utility if they had to be useless for 15 seconds to swap stances in battle, right now its way to easy to swap stances in battle. 

The other thing is that you are looking at parses where the beastlords have a weapons that's probably 20% better than anything anyone else can get when the mythical update in dov part 2 comes out most of the other classes should be about equal to the beastlord.

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Old 02-20-2012, 02:37 PM   #43
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[email protected] wrote:

If your thinking a Bst is hard to play then you should probably quit tbh. 

I'm not thinking any such thing. I'm merely acknowledging that at level 90 they might be more difficult than they are at level 40. This compares high level BL to lower level BL, not to any other class.

At level 40, BLs are even more embarassingly brain-dead easy than any other class I've ever played. I don't see how anyone can stand to level one up to 90.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:54 PM   #44
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In less than ideal fights - AOEs, pet deaths, etc - Beastlords still top T1 DPS classes. In ideal scenarios its not even close. Call that balanced if you want but I think it's pretty clear that they are in a class above T1.

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Old 02-24-2012, 11:04 PM   #45
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Im actually curious now, I keep seeing the term "faceroll" classes but no one actually mentions the classes that are considered to be "faceroll" easy.  Are there actually any "faceroll" dps classes?

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Old 02-26-2012, 11:27 AM   #46
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Sorry, but (feral) beastlords are in a tier of their own, and the numbers I have seen being thrown around from top-end raiders support that. Now the spread between well-played beastlords and terrible ones is much larger than for any other class (and it wouldn't surprise me if SOE probably takes average numbers into account when balancing classes). However, that doesn't detract from the fact that at the top-end of that spread, beastlords are significantly overpowered.

There is no way that you can balance beastlords by bumping all other classes up to match them, because (even assuming SOE gets the balance between all the classes correct in that scenario), it is just going to completely break content (especially raid content) due to the significantly increased raid-wide damage output (which will easily trivialize most encounters).

That means the only logical way to balance beastlords, is by nerfing them to bring them into line with other dps classes (in feral) and other utility classes (in spiritual). And doing this is also much easier than your alternative, which would need many times the work.

The reason I assume the devs have held off on retuning Beastlords for so long, is to maximize sales on AoD - but perhaps that is just me being cynical.

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Old 02-26-2012, 02:44 PM   #47
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daray wrote:

Sorry, but (feral) beastlords are in a tier of their own, and the numbers I have seen being thrown around from top-end raiders support that. Now the spread between well-played beastlords and terrible ones is much larger than for any other class (and it wouldn't surprise me if SOE probably takes average numbers into account when balancing classes). However, that doesn't detract from the fact that at the top-end of that spread, beastlords are significantly overpowered.

There is no way that you can balance beastlords by bumping all other classes up to match them, because (even assuming SOE gets the balance between all the classes correct in that scenario), it is just going to completely break content (especially raid content) due to the significantly increased raid-wide damage output (which will easily trivialize most encounters).

That means the only logical way to balance beastlords, is by nerfing them to bring them into line with other dps classes (in feral) and other utility classes (in spiritual). And doing this is also much easier than your alternative, which would need many times the work.

The reason I assume the devs have held off on retuning Beastlords for so long, is to maximize sales on AoD - but perhaps that is just me being cynical.

thanks for posting man.

  i really think that when the other dps scouts have two mythical weaps like high end beastlords do now along with a new abilitiy or two there will be balance.

  wiz on the other hand needs a bigger boost than that.   you don't think that having "preparation" clicky back would give a big boost to wiz?   that along with a boost to manaburn effectiveness should help close the gap but then again my wiz is postly for bg's.

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Old 02-26-2012, 09:43 PM   #48
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Davngr1 wrote:

Raknid wrote:

So instead of rebalancing one class you suggest they tweak all the rest?

  these other classes have needed tweaks for a while now..   beastlords just made the troubles stand out more.

It's less time consuming and resource consuming to gut the snot out of the beastlords than it is to fix the others.

You been around here long? Should know this by now.

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Old 02-26-2012, 09:46 PM   #49
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Freejazzlive wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

yes, beastlord isn't any harder to play than other dps classes but it's not any easier

Nonsense: Beastlord is definitely easier to play than Swashie or Brigand, since you have far fewer positionals or attacks requiring stealth. There isn't a single thing justifying BL DPS .... except for SOE's desire to not anger those who bought AoD strictly for the BL.

You need to face a simple fact about EQ2 game balance: historically, SOE has never, ever, ever buffed up other classes. They have always nerfed the ones which stand out. There's a good reason for this: if you buff up the other classes, you're buffing them past the content. It's thus much easier, & more sensible, to nerf the class which is standing out. Thus, it is almost inevietable that BLs will be nerfed, & since that's true, it ought to happen sooner than later.

Buying an expansion just for a class that people bought hearing how OP they were is just dumb.

If that is the reason anyone bought the expansion, to play an OP class, then they deserve the nerf imo.

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Old 02-26-2012, 09:47 PM   #50
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SeregWethrin wrote:

Beastlords are actually the hardest class to play and get high dps number by far,  you have to remember the people pulling those big parses have gmed all their pets which probably takes about twice what it takes to get 320 aa maybe even 3 times.

Guildmate of mine's level 42 beastlord alt  has most of his pets grandmastered.

LEVEL. 42. BEASTLORD.

Maybe the ones that got powerlevelled have taken a long time to max them out but yeah...

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Old 02-28-2012, 12:34 AM   #51
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[email protected] wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

Raknid wrote:

So instead of rebalancing one class you suggest they tweak all the rest?

  these other classes have needed tweaks for a while now..   beastlords just made the troubles stand out more.

It's less time consuming and resource consuming to gut the snot out of the beastlords than it is to fix the others.

You been around here long? Should know this by now.

the point of this thread is:

  classes haven't had any new abilities in a long time.    

   i would rather take this chance to get some new stuff and the resource consuming is necessary and appreciated..  i play this game to play evolving fun classes (that's the point of an progression game ya know?) not to play the same class with nothing new for 2 years...  

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Old 02-28-2012, 06:43 AM   #52
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Davngr1 wrote:

the point of this thread is:

  classes haven't had any new abilities in a long time.    

   i would rather take this chance to get some new stuff and the resource consuming is necessary and appreciated..  i play this game to play evolving fun classes (that's the point of an progression game ya know?) not to play the same class with nothing new for 2 years...  

you do, of course, realise that EQ2 has a very small team still working on it. I suppose you've noticed people quitting and being moved onto othe projects. What's left now is what ? 2 developers maybe and they have to produce this huge content that's been promised for GU63 ( which is already delayed by 2 months ), not to mention the beautiful SC items which are the main priority now.

Bottom line is ... do you really think they will start to work on 24 classes now or at any point in the future ?

Eq2 is dead, SOE killed it for us.

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Old 02-28-2012, 01:45 PM   #53
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daray wrote:

There is no way that you can balance beastlords by bumping all other classes up to match them, because (even assuming SOE gets the balance between all the classes correct in that scenario), it is just going to completely break content (especially raid content) due to the significantly increased raid-wide damage output (which will easily trivialize most encounters).

Um no, you're wrong here.

They're not going to ballance it out till the next expansion (next year?) and at that point we have new content, and the new balanced dps doesn't necesarily break new content, since well, it was created with the new numbers in mind.

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:19 PM   #54
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[email protected] wrote:

daray wrote:

There is no way that you can balance beastlords by bumping all other classes up to match them, because (even assuming SOE gets the balance between all the classes correct in that scenario), it is just going to completely break content (especially raid content) due to the significantly increased raid-wide damage output (which will easily trivialize most encounters).

Um no, you're wrong here.

They're not going to ballance it out till the next expansion (next year?) and at that point we have new content, and the new balanced dps doesn't necesarily break new content, since well, it was created with the new numbers in mind.

He's not wrong, because he's speaking in present tense.

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:22 PM   #55
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Trynt wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Um no, you're wrong here.

They're not going to ballance it out till the next expansion (next year?) and at that point we have new content, and the new balanced dps doesn't necesarily break new content, since well, it was created with the new numbers in mind.

He's not wrong, because he's speaking in present tense.

Hoping for class balance issues to be addressed outside of an expansion pack?  Might as well dream big.

I'm quite certain we won't see any real fixes and adjustments until we have an expansion.  In fact, I'm certain releasing the BL's as they are now with a near content void expansion was intended so people have something to treadmill waiting for the next one.

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:25 PM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:

Trynt wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Um no, you're wrong here.

They're not going to ballance it out till the next expansion (next year?) and at that point we have new content, and the new balanced dps doesn't necesarily break new content, since well, it was created with the new numbers in mind.

He's not wrong, because he's speaking in present tense.

Hoping for class balance issues to be addressed outside of an expansion pack?  Might as well dream big.

I'm quite certain we won't see any real fixes and adjustments until we have an expansion.  In fact, I'm certain releasing the BL's as they are now with a near content void expansion was intended so people have something to treadmill waiting for the next one.

That's true, and also addressed in the part of Daray's post that you left out.  That doesn't change the fact that if all classes received a dps boost to match BLs, content would be trivialized.  It would.

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Old 02-28-2012, 03:00 PM   #57
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Trynt wrote:

I'm quite certain we won't see any real fixes and adjustments until we have an expansion.  In fact, I'm certain releasing the BL's as they are now with a near content void expansion was intended so people have something to treadmill waiting for the next one.

That's true, and also addressed in the part of Daray's post that you left out.  That doesn't change the fact that if all classes received a dps boost to match BLs, content would be trivialized.  It would.

Sure, which is further justication not to address it until the next expansion...

They are not going to commit marketing suicide by nerfing BL's durring this expansion.  Of this, I'm certain.

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Old 02-28-2012, 03:35 PM   #58
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[email protected] wrote:

Trynt wrote:

I'm quite certain we won't see any real fixes and adjustments until we have an expansion.  In fact, I'm certain releasing the BL's as they are now with a near content void expansion was intended so people have something to treadmill waiting for the next one.

That's true, and also addressed in the part of Daray's post that you left out.  That doesn't change the fact that if all classes received a dps boost to match BLs, content would be trivialized.  It would.

Sure, which is further justication not to address it until the next expansion...

They are not going to commit marketing suicide by nerfing BL's durring this expansion.  Of this, I'm certain.

Neither Daray nor I suggested that BL's will get nerfed during this expansion.  The post you quoted even said as much if you read the whole thing.  Other dps classes will also not get a balancing boost this expansion, so that is also a moot point. 

That doesn't change the fact that the latter would trivialize content when the former would not.  Since neither is likely to happen, I suppose it doesn't matter.

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Old 02-28-2012, 07:07 PM   #59
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Trynt wrote:

 That doesn't change the fact that if all classes received a dps boost to match BLs, content would be trivialized.  It would.

new content is coming out and there is still current content that has not been killed (part of the reason why bl's are so far above everyone, they have two mythical weapons).    new content can be tuned for damage balancing and even current content, with crit mitt being removed an HP boost to accommodate for extra damage wouldn't be that huge of a deal.

 also BL's are only head and shoulders above everyone else on easy content, once you factor in heavy aoe's or jousting BL's fall in line (gear/skill equal of course)

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Old 02-28-2012, 10:07 PM   #60
Trynt

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Davngr1 wrote:

once you factor in heavy aoe's or jousting BL's fall in line (gear/skill equal of course)

Sorry, no.  They do not fall in line.  They have their own line.

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