EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > General EverQuest II Discussion > Spells, Abilities, and General Class Discussion
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-17-2010, 01:52 PM   #1
Kiara

Community Relations
Kiara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,359
Default

Greetings all!

As you can see, Xelgad has posted this: Combat Mechanics and Player Progression

Please feel free to post your questions and feedback (following the forum rules!) here.

While there may not be replies in this thread, Xelgad will try and update the linked thread above with further clarification based on the questions and feedback here.

As always, please remember that the way you ask your question matters.

We cannot/will not answer questions like:  When are you going to fix my class?  Why does my class suck?  When are you going to nerf that other person's class?  Why do you hate x class?

A better phrasing would be:  We, as players, have noticed that x skills seem to not work properly for our class.  Can you please explain how they are intended to work and if they aren't working correctly can you give us an ETA on a fix?

Thanks all!

Kiara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:12 PM   #2
Zenadina

Tester
Zenadina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 96
Default

I've noticed i can go over 100% Crit, does it make any difference or is anything over 100% wasted?

Zenadina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:18 PM   #3
slippery

Loremaster
slippery's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,272
Default

The dev team still needs look further in to the following statement # Critical and Double Attack are not reduced against a higher level target. That is true for Double Attack, but not for crit. Has always been this way, and the Dev team in KoS when this issue first came up stated it as such that your change to crit is effected by mob level, but you won't really notice until you start fighting Orange mobs. Even then it won't be that noticable until you get to high orange.
__________________
Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle
slippery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:35 PM   #4
Xelgad

Game Designer
Xelgad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 199
Default

Slippery: Critical was changed with Sentinel's Fate. 100% Crit is 100% Crit against everything.

Zenadina: Going over 100% Crit will only help if your character is debuffed.

__________________
<img src="http://signavatar.com/files/sigs/3355_3.jpg">
Xelgad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:40 PM   #5
Rocc

Loremaster
Rocc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 705
Default

If we can only attune one item with haste then what would be the point of a soft cap on haste? Please just allow our gear to stack. Foxtrot uniform bravo alpha romeo!

Rocc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:42 PM   #6
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Xelgad wrote:

Slippery: Critical was changed with Sentinel's Fate. 100% Crit is 100% Crit against everything.

Amazing if true but ACT doesn't seem to agree.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:45 PM   #7
Xelgad

Game Designer
Xelgad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 199
Default

ACT will show your procs not critting along with other spells that cannot. If you're seeing your auto-attack and normal abilities (without procs) fail to crit (when you're not debuffed like on fishman in Perah's lab), feel free to PM me with your ACT Parse or combat logs, as that would be a bug.

__________________
<img src="http://signavatar.com/files/sigs/3355_3.jpg">
Xelgad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:48 PM   #8
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Okay cool.  Thanks as always Xelgad.  Good change too btw.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:48 PM   #9
Silzin
Server: Crushbone
Guild: Revelations
Rank: Raider

Loremaster
Silzin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 537
Default

should abilities from AA's be able to be effected by Ability Modifier, potency and crit? I have seen some that do and others that dont. for example i think the monk AA's Baton Flurry and Pressure Point are effected and can crit. but the AA's Combination and Meditative Mending dont, I cant be sure that they are not being effected at all, but i know that they are not criting.
__________________
Silzin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 02:52 PM   #10
Lantis

Loremaster
Lantis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 943
Default

Gaige wrote:

Xelgad wrote:

Slippery: Critical was changed with Sentinel's Fate. 100% Crit is 100% Crit against everything.

Amazing if true but ACT doesn't seem to agree.

Some mobs can debuff your crit chance.  One of the twins in Palace for instance will do that.

Check on a per-fight basis in ACT, you should see it crit below 100% only on certain specific fights.

Lantis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:02 PM   #11
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

 Question 1:The issue i have with this post it said uncontested avoidance is a straight avoidance not effected by npc levels. "Block (Non-Brawlers): A Block is based on the player's shield. The higher the protection rating, the higher chance to block. All block that is used by a non-Brawler class is uncontested, meaning it is a straight percentage chance to avoid an incoming attack.""Uncontested avoidance is avoidance that is a straight percentage chance to avoid an attack regardless of the target's offensive skills or level."

Unless this is changed for SF this is inaccurate. At least from the prior posts of developers including the EOF patch notes that states uncontested avoidance is altered by lvl difference. Was this changed for SF?"  - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill."

Question 2:Recent data tests by several brawlers are coming up with odd uncontested block scores.For instance one would assume our minimum block ( aka minimum deflection) would be our stance(+AA aversion)22% and our myth buff 5%= 27% to be our base uncontested block chance. confirmed via in game tests.This % is then increased by our % block chance. While fairly close the number for minimum block on the persona window is slightly higher. Testing shows this slight increase is adjusted by Agility.

My question: Does agility increase uncontested avoidance. furthermore since offensive skills do not have a cap i presume Defensive skills do not have a cap and thus the same rules applies whereas the max defensive adjustment for defense/parry/deflection is obtained when you have a defensive skill 100 points higher then your opponents offensive skill.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:04 PM   #12
Tehom

Loremaster
Tehom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,171
Default

I had just taken it for granted that you needed around 108% to reliably crit on mobs, and ACT seemed to support that. I guess that it could be attributed to players getting out of range of Don't Kill the Messenger from bards and being hit by  various crit debuffs. I'll try to pay attention on specific fights and see if I can find specific instances that can't fall into either of those two categories.

On a separate note, would it be at all possible for you to post what the formula is for mitigation required to hit the cap against level 98 mobs? I realize it can vary on a spell per spell basis, but it'd be really nice for players to just have some sort of ballpark figure on what mitigation to shoot for, rather than just trying to guess whether something helps or is just a placebo effect.

Tehom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:05 PM   #13
Davngr1

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,179
Default

Xelgad wrote:

ACT will show your procs not critting along with other spells that cannot. If you're seeing your auto-attack and normal abilities (without procs) fail to crit (when you're not debuffed like on fishman in Perah's lab), feel free to PM me with your ACT Parse or combat logs, as that would be a bug.

unless something was changed post SF changes, level does affect crit chance.    it has been proven on training dummys and mobs (with out crit debuffs) alike.       if you did add some changes to change this it would be great, thanks.

__________________
Davngr1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:11 PM   #14
Yimway

Loremaster
Yimway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,707
Default

Gungo wrote:

The issue i have with this post it said uncontested avoidance is a straight avoidance not effected by npc levels. "Block (Non-Brawlers): A Block is based on the player's shield. The higher the protection rating, the higher chance to block. All block that is used by a non-Brawler class is uncontested, meaning it is a straight percentage chance to avoid an incoming attack.""Uncontested avoidance is avoidance that is a straight percentage chance to avoid an attack regardless of the target's offensive skills or level."

Unless this is changed for SF this is inaccurate. At least from the prior posts of developers including the EOF patch notes that states uncontested avoidance is altered by lvl difference. Was this changed for SF?"  - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill."

I believe he means the % chance to block (protection/level) * (1+block chance modifier) = % uncontested avoidance.

That final % is not further contested by mob con or skill.

However, the base block chance is and has been contested by mob level (irregardless of con).

__________________
Yimway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:19 PM   #15
Quicksilver74

Loremaster
Quicksilver74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,640
Default

Thanks for making this thread.   This is a good step toward getting rid of the mystery behind much of EQ2's combat.   It's also very helpful for new players as well.  

Quicksilver74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:35 PM   #16
Lader

Loremaster
Lader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 591
Default

are there any plans on reworking crit bonus for wards? at present, crit bonus is halved for wards. this affects many classes, not just shaman. I have to go to work, im hoping one of the other shaman will post the information from the various threads on this matter.

__________________
-Thanatosis: 90 defiler of Oasis
Lader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:54 PM   #17
Fendaria

Loremaster
Fendaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 296
Default

While a lot of us know some of this, having it in the post on combat mechanics seems like a good idea.  Here are some things that I think were missed.

It would be nice to see a section on how DoTs work with regards to crit, potency, CB, mod, etc.  Which stats get front loaded and which don't.  Same thing for Wards and Healing Dots.

Some blue stats that were missed that I have seen:

+Max Power

+Focus

When describing the Ability/Reuse/Recovery speeds you mention they can only be reduced to half.  Might want to include that this normally happens at 100% (and hence is the cap) for that stat.

How do procs work off of an AE attack?  Same chance as a single target spell?  Lower chance individually to proc but the same total chance as a single target?

What about the Hate Transfer caps?  How does hate transfer work with multiple targets or sources?  (ex I get amends and put a my own 10% hate transfer on the Pali who put amends on me)

Fendaria

Fendaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 03:59 PM   #18
Sydares

Loremaster
Sydares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 700
Default

With auto-attack damage doing progressively less percentages of damage, is there a particular reason that potency doesn't effect auto-attack?

Sydares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 04:01 PM   #19
threat111

Loremaster
threat111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 391
Default

as previously mentioned.  thanks for adding this.  Most of this info was fairly common knowledge end game thru alot of testing, but its nice to be validated with dev confirmation.  This will not only end alot of arguements, it should allow for a better player base.  At least for those that can read SMILEY

__________________
The above post is most likely cynical, sarcastic, offensive, rude, unnecessary, and informative. I apologize for any information gained from said post. It was meant purely to be cynical, sarcastic, offensive, rude, and unnecessary.
threat111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 04:02 PM   #20
threat111

Loremaster
threat111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 391
Default

Question.  Any chance we will see the caps to haste or DPS removed?

__________________
The above post is most likely cynical, sarcastic, offensive, rude, unnecessary, and informative. I apologize for any information gained from said post. It was meant purely to be cynical, sarcastic, offensive, rude, and unnecessary.
threat111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 04:05 PM   #21
Obadiah

Loremaster
Obadiah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,154
Default

Xelgad wrote:

All mitigations cap at 75% damage reduction. The amount reduced is contested against the target's level. For example, a level 90 player will need a decent amount more mitigation than what displays as 75% in their persona window to "cap" against a level 98 raid boss.

See, this is unfortunate. Why should my actual mitigation % be a mystery? I don't care what it is vs. level 90 mobs. Knowing that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

I have no idea what my mitigation % is versus any of the mobs I currently engage in combat against. So it's just a guess when you can stop piling on the mitigation increases; just a guess as to how much of a difference they are making. If I'm approaching 70-75% now vs. level 90 mobs I never fight ... how far into the curve am I against Maalus?

"A decent amount more" is all we have to work with.

__________________
Obadiah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 04:10 PM   #22
Sydares

Loremaster
Sydares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 700
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Xelgad wrote:

All mitigations cap at 75% damage reduction. The amount reduced is contested against the target's level. For example, a level 90 player will need a decent amount more mitigation than what displays as 75% in their persona window to "cap" against a level 98 raid boss.

See, this is unfortunate. Why should my actual mitigation % be a mystery? I don't care what it is vs. level 90 mobs. Knowing that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

I absolutely agree with this. Can we please get an option to calculate our tooltips vs. +8 of our level? The mystery element is annoying. That goes for all resists, mitigation, block, etc.

Sydares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 04:35 PM   #23
Ballads

Loremaster
Ballads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 264
Default

hy

Attributes

"Which stat does my class need?"

  • Each archtype has a primary stat. All Fighters use Strength, all Scouts use Agility, all Priests use Wisdom and all Mages use Intelligence. The primary stat increases damage and max power.
  • Stamina increases maximum health (and helps with outright resists in PVP Combat.)
  • Wisdom increases magical mitigation.
  • Agility increases the chance to avoid attacks. It also increases critical mitigation for fighters and scouts.
  • Intelligence increases critical mitigation for mages and priests.
  • Strength increases how much weight you can carry.

"Do my attributes cap?"

  • No. Your primary stat is not capped. You will see less gain on your damage as you increase your stat, though. At about 1200 of your primary stat, you will have all of your damage abilities increased by about 60% over having 0 in your primary stat. After 1200, a ~30% increase to your stat will gain ~10% damage boost.
  • This does not affect your non-primary stat. Fighters are still capped on Agility and Wisdom, for example.
Why is it Max Power gain still stops from your primary stats at 1200?

Ballads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 05:05 PM   #24
Xelgad

Game Designer
Xelgad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 199
Default

Gungo wrote:

 Question 1:The issue i have with this post it said uncontested avoidance is a straight avoidance not effected by npc levels. "Block (Non-Brawlers): A Block is based on the player's shield. The higher the protection rating, the higher chance to block. All block that is used by a non-Brawler class is uncontested, meaning it is a straight percentage chance to avoid an incoming attack.""Uncontested avoidance is avoidance that is a straight percentage chance to avoid an attack regardless of the target's offensive skills or level."

Unless this is changed for SF this is inaccurate. At least from the prior posts of developers including the EOF patch notes that states uncontested avoidance is altered by lvl difference. Was this changed for SF?"  - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill."

Question 2:Recent data tests by several brawlers are coming up with odd uncontested block scores.For instance one would assume our minimum block ( aka minimum deflection) would be our stance(+AA aversion)22% and our myth buff 5%= 27% to be our base uncontested block chance. confirmed via in game tests.This % is then increased by our % block chance. While fairly close the number for minimum block on the persona window is slightly higher. Testing shows this slight increase is adjusted by Agility.

My question: Does agility increase uncontested avoidance. furthermore since offensive skills do not have a cap i presume Defensive skills do not have a cap and thus the same rules applies whereas the max defensive adjustment for defense/parry/deflection is obtained when you have a defensive skill 100 points higher then your opponents offensive skill.

Question 1: Uncontested Avoidance is not affected by the target's level.

Question 2: Agility should not not be affecting your uncontested avoidance. You may be seeing a display error. As for your offensive and defensive skills question, you are correct - it reverses, but you'll want all of your defensive skills to be 100 over the target's offensive skills.

__________________
<img src="http://signavatar.com/files/sigs/3355_3.jpg">
Xelgad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 06:06 PM   #25
Banditman

Loremaster
Banditman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,459
Default

Questions:

1.  Why do Parry and Defense skills not work at all versus epic targets?  It seems ludicrous to put these stats on raid gear (and have those stats count against the "value" budget of the item) when they do absolutely nothing for that content.

2.  When can we expect to see accurate information displayed in game for our mitigation?  Right now we are still seeing numbers that are completely wrong, as they do not take into account the level of the gear.  This is a long acknowledged problem, and probably a leading cause of the many questions about mitigation in general.

3.  What will it take to make the Shaman pet actually immune to AE's?  Shaman must spend 24 points to aquire that ability for their pet, yet it only works "sometimes".  Perhaps more accurately, it fails sometimes to certain AE abilities.  This is quite annoying, and I really can't understand the logic.

4.  Along those same lines, and in conjunction with the existing thread in this forum, why are dumbfire / swarm pets still being killed by AE's?  We were told this would be fixed.  The mechanic made more sense back when AE's were rare, but with so many sources of AE damage now, it just doesn't work out.

__________________
Banditman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 08:50 PM   #26
thecynic315

Loremaster
thecynic315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 454
Default

Needing 100 more skill then the mobs defence, is this at all levels or just level 90? If thats just at level 90 then whats the equation to know how much I need?

What are the actual equations for regen? I know them off had but to not put them in your post is a mistake.

HOW much more mit/resist do I need Vs a mob 1 level higher then me vs a mob 10 levels higher? Does this change from level 1 to level 90? What is the actual equation?

How does accuracy really work? Whats the equation?

How is to hit determined exactly? Whats the equation?

Why is DPS listed as a % on items when it clearly is not?

__________________
I QUIT once EQ2x came about!
thecynic315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 08:53 PM   #27
Ardors

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Default

Sydares wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Xelgad wrote:

All mitigations cap at 75% damage reduction. The amount reduced is contested against the target's level. For example, a level 90 player will need a decent amount more mitigation than what displays as 75% in their persona window to "cap" against a level 98 raid boss.

See, this is unfortunate. Why should my actual mitigation % be a mystery? I don't care what it is vs. level 90 mobs. Knowing that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

I absolutely agree with this. Can we please get an option to calculate our tooltips vs. +8 of our level? The mystery element is annoying. That goes for all resists, mitigation, block, etc.

I agree also... I have been asking for this information for ever.... As a Guard tanking the high end content, I need all the agro i can get...more now than ever...... If I know when I reach the Mit cap vs that lvl 98 epic raid mob, I can then switch for some offensive pieces which will help for agro...  we need to know for the other stats also, not just mit...Arcane, Nox and elemental.

Ardors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 09:17 PM   #28
VengeanceX

Loremaster
VengeanceX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 76
Default

Xelgad wrote:

"Does the level of my armor matter?"

  • Yes. Resists and Mitigation is 'worth more' on a higher level item. If an item is level 80 with 500 mitigation, a level 90 item with the same mitigation will provide a bigger damage reduction. We are looking into making this more intuitive.

How about weapons?  Does the level of my weapons affect my chance to hit or the damage that the weapon hits for?

Along the same lines, does the level of my shield affect the avoidance granted by the shield?

VengeanceX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 09:48 PM   #29
Notsovilepriest
Server: Nagafen
Guild: Ill Gotten Gain
Rank: Raider

Loremaster
Notsovilepriest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,184
Default

This is how it seems to me:Critical Wards:At 0% Crit Bonus we get a 15% larger ward than base amountAt 50% Crit Bonus we get a 40% larger wardAt 100% Crit Bonus we get a 65% larger ward Critical Direct Heals:At 0% Crit Bonus we get a 30% larger heal than base amountAt 50% Crit Bonus we get a 80% larger healAt 100% Crit Bonus we get a 130% larger healThat's a big difference... Another way to look at this is if you compare ward size to heals size.Lets compare a 1000 point critical ward to a 1000 point critical heal:At 0% Crit Bonus we get a 1150 size ward and a 1300 size heal (13% Larger Heal)At 50% Crit Bonus we get a 1400 size ward and a 1800 size heal (29% Larger Heal)At 100% Crit Bonus we get a 1650 size ward and a 2300 size heal (40% Larger Heal)The heals are 40% larger than the wards at 100% crit bonus. The more crit bonus you get, the less you benefit per percentage point if you cast wards mainly.  This has a similar returns graph as diminishing returns.  Although Shamans get hit with this mechanic harder than any other healing class since our wards are the main source of healing.
__________________
Notsovilepriest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2010, 11:46 PM   #30
slippery

Loremaster
slippery's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,272
Default

Xelgad wrote:

Slippery: Critical was changed with Sentinel's Fate. 100% Crit is 100% Crit against everything.

Zenadina: Going over 100% Crit will only help if your character is debuffed.

You may have intended to do so while merging crits, but I promise you that isn't the way it is in game. We've been telling you guys this for 4 months. 100% crit does not give you 100% crits. It isn't some magical buff on mobs either, unless you want to tell me that training dummies come preloaded with said buff. It also isn't tied to just epics, because I tested it before epic dummies.

Please do not repeat the mistakes of Lockeye and Aeralik and assume the player base does not know what it is talking about and ignore what we say. Some people do in fact know what they are talking about, and probably have a more solid grasp on how things actually play out in game mechanicly then most of the devs. It comes from years of playing this game multiple hours a day at the top of the game on a variety of classes.

I'm going to work on the assumption that nothing has changed since the expansion launched, and this test was done mid March. Here you can very clearly see me failing to crit on a training dummy (most controlled test I could get on a higher level mob, I was simply trying to prove that 100% doesn't mean 100%. I chrono'd to 80 and got my crit as close to 100% as possible and attacked level 90 training dummies).

No, it is not a dispaly bug, the damage is what it would be for a non crit. You devs can keep telling us that 100% = 100% all you want, but it is still not true. It may have been what you desired, but it isn't how the game works.

__________________
Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle
slippery is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:44 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.