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Old 11-08-2012, 07:58 PM   #31
Frezzyisfuzzy

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Quick question for those who have tested the new raids: did they continue the use of constant detrimentals with the "spells require X% more power and Y% of that is taken from your health"?  I know we'll still have to deal with them in PoW, but I'm hoping they moved away from that obsession with CoE zones.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:06 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

Yes there's... healing, which actually this content doesn't need much of either since a lot of encounters have just a single AE.  Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers.  You give the templar a faster cure and have no real curing needed, sounds smart.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:08 PM   #33
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Twyxx wrote:

Baroddas (challenge): 2:22

All were one-pulls except Baroddas which I think took like 5 pulls to get down.  We had a full raid, but not an ideal raid.  With fights all that short it's hard to give any kind of feedback as you can just plow thru any of the scripts except the gorilla.  Baroddas is an amusing fight. 

I think it took 3 pulls, and it was longer than that, what with the whole kiting the giant monkey around the entire room. Or are we not counting that part?

Speaking of kiting the monkey around, why? I almost feel like that encounter was my reward for doing the hard side of Commanders all these months. But I've never had a raid encounter that really didn't matter how much attention I paid. I'm not sure if it was supposed to be challenging or just whimsical. I mean it's all fine and dandy if it's one mob to joke around on and have fun, but with the limited amount of 'hard' raid content in the expansion it's just questionable. 

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:10 PM   #34
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Kreton wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

Yes there's... healing, which actually this content doesn't need much of either since a lot of encounters have just a single AE.  Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers.  You give the templar a faster cure and have no real curing needed, sounds smart.

Or you can be useful and debuff & DPS the mob as well as just healing and curing. 

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:13 PM   #35
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

Yes there's... healing, which actually this content doesn't need much of either since a lot of encounters have just a single AE.  Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers.  You give the templar a faster cure and have no real curing needed, sounds smart.

Or you can be useful and debuff & DPS the mob as well as just healing and curing. 

You can do that as a nonhealer just the same too.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:23 PM   #36
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Kreton wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

Yes there's... healing, which actually this content doesn't need much of either since a lot of encounters have just a single AE.  Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers.  You give the templar a faster cure and have no real curing needed, sounds smart.

Or you can be useful and debuff & DPS the mob as well as just healing and curing. 

You can do that as a nonhealer just the same too.

Yes and that's where the healing and curing comes in. And something a lot of healers forget and depend on dirges far too much for- REZZING. Hi, you can cast rezzes too. I usually rez before people even start casting theirs. 

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:27 PM   #37
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

Yes there's... healing, which actually this content doesn't need much of either since a lot of encounters have just a single AE.  Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers.  You give the templar a faster cure and have no real curing needed, sounds smart.

Or you can be useful and debuff & DPS the mob as well as just healing and curing. 

You can do that as a nonhealer just the same too.

Yes and that's where the healing and curing comes in. And something a lot of healers forget and depend on dirges far too much for- REZZING. Hi, you can cast rezzes too. I usually rez before people even start casting theirs. 

The statement was about healing, not what else healers should be doing.  If you aren't dpsing, debuffing, and rezzing as a healer regardless, I don't know what to say.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:33 PM   #38
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Think they were pointing out there is still plenty of 'challenging' things to do if healers aren't having to constantly cure or even heal.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:37 PM   #39
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Kreton wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

Yes there's... healing, which actually this content doesn't need much of either since a lot of encounters have just a single AE.  Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers.  You give the templar a faster cure and have no real curing needed, sounds smart.

Or you can be useful and debuff & DPS the mob as well as just healing and curing. 

You can do that as a nonhealer just the same too.

Yes and that's where the healing and curing comes in. And something a lot of healers forget and depend on dirges far too much for- REZZING. Hi, you can cast rezzes too. I usually rez before people even start casting theirs. 

The statement was about healing, not what else healers should be doing.  If you aren't dpsing, debuffing, and rezzing as a healer regardless, I don't know what to say.

No, you specifically said that lack of cures means you won't be doing much else. I'm pointing out the different roles of healers in a raid. Do you want a cure fest? Sitting there and doing nothing but spamming group cures & ST cures? I'm sure you're the only one if that's the case. 

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:45 PM   #40
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

No, you specifically said that lack of cures means you won't be doing much else. I'm pointing out the different roles of healers in a raid. Do you want a cure fest? Sitting there and doing nothing but spamming group cures & ST cures? I'm sure you're the only one if that's the case. 

I never once specifically said I won't be doing much else.  Quote me on that one please.  What I said was there is nothing challenging for healers and I was referring to the healing.  And I said nothing about cure spamming fests, there is something called middle ground where some fights you would actually need to execute timely cures.  But it's more than just lack of cures, it's lack of raidwide damage period.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:57 PM   #41
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Kreton wrote:

Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers. 

Is that specific enough?

Also since when is curing challenging? The only things I feel was challenging last xpac, was pretty much solohealing or Commanders. Solohealing an OT on Sevelak (before it was nerfed) was a lot of fun and mildly challenging. Solohealing a tank on Eriak is also quite fun. The 'challenging' part is doing those things while also doing DPS. 

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:57 PM   #42
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hmm.

This is how i would fix it.

the two problems... difficulty and carrot

have mobs with unattainable levels of crit avoid

people critting less then 100% of the time.. solves everything listed here.. and you dont break old content.

And then put rare high crit items sprinkled around zones.

by not critting 100% of the time increase mob difficulty using an already built in mechanic and then you give players something to chase after.

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Old 11-08-2012, 09:05 PM   #43
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Also I'm done straying off topic, let's discuss actual raid content now.

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Old 11-08-2012, 09:06 PM   #44
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Kreton wrote:

Curing is a core part of healing so without that, then there's nothing challenging at all for healers. 

Is that specific enough?

Also since when is curing challenging? The only things I feel was challenging last xpac, was pretty much solohealing or Commanders. Solohealing an OT on Sevelak (before it was nerfed) was a lot of fun and mildly challenging. Solohealing a tank on Eriak is also quite fun. The 'challenging' part is doing those things while also doing DPS. 

No that would not be specifically saying I wouldn't be doing anything else.  That would be saying the exact thing I had already pointed out in the post prior to yours there.  Even if I had been referring to DPS/debuffing in that statement, it still wouldn't mean I wouldn't be doing anything, just means it wasn't challenging.  Perhaps you don't know what specifically means.

And if you want to really get into it, nothing in this game is challenging.  DPS'ing and debuffing isn't either.  Curing is just another reactionary event which can cause fails if not executed, and that was the point of it all.  The complete lack of reactionary events.

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Old 11-08-2012, 09:21 PM   #45
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If there's no/little cures and little/light healing, then healers, as healers, have little to do. A healer doing good healer dps, should get their socks blown off by an average dpser doing average dps. If the part of a healer's job that requires a healer (ie curing and healing) is reduced to rote.. I would consider that not challenging for a healer, as a healer.

Don't get me wrong, I love pushing out as much dps as I can while I'm keeping my group stable and green, if possible. But if the 'stable and green' part is too easy, then I'm just a cappy dps toon that tosses a heal or cure every so often and not really a 'healer'. I don't want healing something I can do while mostly asleep.

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Old 11-08-2012, 09:30 PM   #46
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Arabel hit the nail on the head with his post.  As well did a few others.

Fights like Yael (along with several UD encounters), 4rune Theer, Anashti, Field General, Ykesha, Gynok, Tyrannus, Toxulia, Kraytoc, Statue, and even some of the HM Drunder Encounters.  These are the types of fights we are looking for.  I hear you asking for ideas Gninja, and being as nice as I can about it I listed some for you.  We are not going to design an entire encounter for you (that's your job).  We gave you a platform to work off of.

Another decent idea was made on flames that I will quote-

'Needs more Shard of Hate zones.

Everyone kills the first two named, next two are killed by mid tier guilds, last two killed by top guilds and pretty much noone else."

~~~~~~~

Also people talk about Raiders being the 2% of the population or what ever, so they shouldn't 'cater' to us. But I mean, do people take into consideration that "raiders" spend like a bajillion times more time ingame? Not only raiding, but getting up to where they need to be to raid?

I mean it's fine if you wanna consider that other 98% important too, but I don't, when probably 75% or more of that "98%" are people that log in for a couple hours TOPS a week, or are just 2nd accounts that are used for boxing zones (which i'm sure a large majority of people that do this are raiders anyways?).

The raiding population is where you make a large majority of your profits from this game (I have 0 doubt in that statement), and if raiding gets screwed up by making it trivial, then you guys are lowering your standards down to that of other games (GW2, SWOTR, WoW, Rift), then what is going to keep that population here?  I mean if you guys had a clue, I would bet my life on the fact that if you took raiding out of this game (which by making it trivial and clearable withing 2 days of launch, you almost do), and you logged into your own game, there would be nothing left except the casual people that log in for a couple hours a week and sit around in the guildhall.

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Old 11-08-2012, 10:00 PM   #47
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Gninja wrote:

I would absolutely love to use your feedback to develope more challenging raids however you need to give us some concrete feedback that has specific examples other than "Its all too easy, make it better plzkthx"

I look at the raid forums very often throughout the day looking for feedback in general and have been responding to nearly every post regarding raids in Harrow's End and Altar of Abhorrence.

Get me some constructive feedback on what needs changed and we can take a look. Feel free to email it to me if you don't want to post it here. The lines of communication have been open this entire time and its your choice to use it or ignore it.

No offense intended here, but I tried that. With you specifically. I tried to get a night to go through all the methods of Drinal so I could actually comment on it and give you feedback and tweek it. Even after verifying the same day a few hours before our raid that you would be there, when it came to it that night you couldn't stay. I understand thigns happen, but it's rather disheartening when you coordinate 30 people to be there and it was all for naught. You have to enable players to help you. We tried to help you, you blew us off. Something that is even more frustrating when a few hours before when I double checked we'd be good to go. Then when we did Sleepers (which I guess isn't your zone? I thought it was since you sent us there.) and I emailed you some of my thoughts about both Drinal and Sleepers I didn't get a response. Feedback goes both ways, you guys get this wrong all the time. For people to keep giving feedback the feedback has to actually be acknowledged. How am I supposed to know you even read it and that I should keep trying? This is why people where so in love with Domino, because feedback wasn't a black hole it was a two way street. You've been good about replying on the forums, but when it comes to really testing raid content it needs to be real time. You need to get the snap reactions and on the spot stuff that doesn't make it to the forums.

I also have given examples of specific encounters that where good (as well as what specific things in the too hard thread about what pushes encounters too far in the other direction). Are you asking why? I'm always open to have discussions about encounters and tell you when something is too easy or too hard, and why. Not only why, but what is the thing you can change that takes the least away from the encounter to make it a good encounter. My favorite example of this is the Construct in Underfoot Depths. A great encounter that was too hard when it got released, but the simplest of changes made it killable without making it too easy. Taking away a knockback that players had no way to deal with. The final four mobs in that zone didn't need a single change to be killed, yet they didn't get plowed over.

It's all about striking a balance. Generally you are going to have 1 or 2 mechanics that are "annoying" to players on a difficult encounter. That's the way of life, and usually they are annoying because they cause you to wipe. 

This post is about to get extremely long. If you just wanted general reasoning and the quick respone you already read it. Below I'm going to try to break down mechanics and give why's, how's, and what do's. If you care about raid mechanics, the effects they have on players, and how they can interact together then this will be your meat and potatos. I don't really have a good way to format this so it is probably going to be very stream of thought.

Interrupts on ae's. Generally not good. They're kind of like fizzles, they make the game feels sloppy and don't really accomplish anything. They've been attached to most ae's over the past few years. Why is this bad? It punishes players who are actually paying attention and try to precure on non clerics, beacuse they can't actually precure since they get interrupted. Really it is something they can't control, and makes life miserable for Druids/Shamans for no real reason. This is one that should really be avoided.

Interrupt on starting to cast a spell. This is even worse. You end up sitting there spamming buttons because you aren't sure if they are working or not. It makes the game feel extremely laggy when you just sit there and spam a button. 

Hit boxes. Mobs have gotten bigger and bigger. This is a thread I was saving for after the forums get moved, but there are threads about it comparing mob size over expansion. Mobs now are generally so big you don't actually see the mob, not even kind of. You see a mass on your screen. I don't really understand why developers think that having huge mobs you can't see actually adds to the game. What is good about tanking a mob like Statue of Rallos Zek when all you are doing is staring at his feet? This gets worse because more often then not you get real hit box problems. The hit boxes wouldn't inately be a problem (except for Rangers) except that basically every AE is range based now. Within 10 or 15m and you're likely to die unless you have wards. What does this mean? When a healer is max heal range (20m) from the tank and still within that close death range of the AE, what exactly are you supposed to do? This is why people largely didn't farm Dozekar hm. It was 2 huge dragons, with AE's that would slaughter you in close range, yet you couldn't get out of close range without having the mob facing the raid. Mob facing the raid pretty much destroys your dps. You could say you could split the raid so just the tanks healers are in front of the mob, but this is where you get a combination of the other aspects of the encounter stopping that. Mainly the adds spawn on people in the raid and have a time limit to kill, so if the adds spawn on those healers you are then screwed.

Knockbacks. Generally the first thing I recommend taking off encounters. Why? They only add frustration. Generally speaking we can't cast while flying through the air. That means you can't cure that ae that probably ticks fast enough that it will tick before you've actually hit the ground, you can't pick up for dps adds, you can't do anything, and you have to run back to the mob. Meaning you lose even more time. It's basically the most detriemental thing you can do to players because it is the most time spent without doing anything (like healing the tank). They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so extreme, but they are usually out of control. Prime Curator Undr in Temple of Rallos Zek is a good example of a knockback that isn't that bad. With that one a good tank can keep the mob from moving at all, and you have the ability to use zone geometry to keep the kb in check. Even if you do get kb'd you can land where you started in fast order and continue on, as long as enough time is left before a tick so that you have time to land and cure it.

Health damage on power use. Personally, I like this and think it could be cranked up as a source of constant damage. There are 2 exceptions to this. Abilities that use a percent of power need to somehow be excluded or kept in check. A lot of the encounters in Plane of War with this if an Enchanter tries to Mana Flow without wards they 1 shot themself. That obviously creates issues of frustration that should be avoided. The second problem is that it is often tied to increased power consumption to an extent that it makes it really hard to actually keep power, especially combined with the fact that there seems to generally be 2 ae's that drain power on most of the same mobs.

I'm loathe to give you specific do this type stuff, because it just isn't that simple. It's about how things work together. I keep coming back to Theer, but it was the best encounter in any game I've played, bar none. You guys always say you play the game too, but it is one of those statements players laugh at. Every aspect of the game has things where it is like if you really played this wouldn't be like that. I'd imagine if you sat in vent a couple raid nights in any given top raid guild you'd hear a lot of the same stuff about certain encounters. I don't want to give you a do this, because I don't want to see that one thing over and over. I still want new and creative stuff as well, not just old stuff repacked in different ways. Not only that, I'll be honest, I'm not creative. Creativity is pretty far out of my realm. I'm a problem solver, a numbers person. However, when it comes to raiding if you where to describe to me an encounter I can within reason tell you where the likely problems are. I understand how things work.

Right now on Beta the mobs simply just don't do damage.

Unwardable damage isn't bad thing. When it becomes a bad thing is when it hits so hard it kills you before you have a chance to react to it. That's largely been fixed in PoW. Unwardable when you avoid isn't bad either. It is a source of something for you to constantly keep up with much like the health damage on power use. You just have to be careful about how hard it hits combined with with the rate a mob attacks so that tanks don't go from full to dead before reaction time.

Red text joust stuff. Generally not a problem. However, it can become a problem when the whole encounter isn't considered. Tagrin in Plane of War is a really good example of this. The death touch lines up with the red text which just creates problems

There are some frequently made things I would call mistakes. Adds ae far too soon after they spawn. Not considering how things on different timers will line up like I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Zone geometry and how things path, when you start getting circular/back and forth pathing because zone floors aren't flat it can really start to take away from an encounter. I kind of addressed this earlier, but not this aspect. Hit boxes/mob size. Take Milas in Sleepers for example. The hit box is so extremely hugeit makes moving and positioning the mob a complete mess. When I have to run 20-30m to get the mob to move a few inches it just creates problems, that is time spent out of range of everything.

This one isn't necessarily a mistake, but something that needs to be considered. When you use adds as the means to make an encounter longer the more adds you have to kill the exponentially longer the encounter gets. For example, adds spawn every 60 seconds. You have enough dps that you have 5 seconds between killing the adds and the next set spawning. The fight takes you 20 minutes. Now adding just 10% more dps to the adds means you have 10 seconds to dps the named. Doesn't seem like much of a different right? Except with only 10% more dps you just doubled the time you get to burn the named, cutting the encounter in half to take only 10 minutes. I'd rather change that to be something where the adds spawn less often (quite frankly I like adds having hp) but the named has more hp. It's something that accomplishes the same thing. You still have to kill adds, and they still increase the encounter duration while giving you something to do other then just burn the named, but the kill time isn't entirely dependent on how fast you can kill them. 

Curses that explode. I kind of like these (though sometimes zone geometry can create a problem here) because it creates a scenario where multiple people to react and communicate. Someone has to move, realize range to others, and someone has to then cure them.

Reactionary events aren't bad.

Generally you'll find the encounters people really like, and the mechanics people really like, are encounters that involve the whole raid. Something where it isn't 4 people (2 tanks and healers) being the sole ones who bear responsibility for if the raid suceeds or fails. 

Honestly, this post has gone on long enough that I don't know what I've said and what I haven't said. I could go on for days about different mechanics and interactions between them. I'm sure there are probably some half thoughts in here where I got distracted and didn't finish it. Give me some direction, talk to me. Float things, don't let me ramble. 

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Old 11-08-2012, 10:00 PM   #48
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Davito wrote:

The raiding population is where you make a large majority of your profits from this game (I have 0 doubt in that statement), and if raiding gets screwed up by making it trivial, then you guys are lowering your standards down to that of other games (GW2, SWOTR, WoW, Rift), then what is going to keep that population here?  I mean if you guys had a clue, I would bet my life on the fact that if you took raiding out of this game (which by making it trivial and clearable withing 2 days of launch, you almost do), and you logged into your own game, there would be nothing left except the casual people that log in for a couple hours a week and sit around in the guildhall.

+1

There is no coin limit on silver now, so really if you are a casual just sitting around not getting much new gear there is not a compelling case to be made for going gold when unlockers using 3x SC would likely be cheaper.  I know I pay for 2 subs as a raider, and that many others in my guild have multiple gold accts just due to the sheer volume of gear we get (don't slr, so everyone's 4th and 5th alt are geared by this point).

If we could clear the xpac in 2 weeks and we knew it would be 6 months of farming the same stuff and waiting for new content our recruiting thread would get much longer.

Not that fights even need to all be amazing like Theer.  Even somewhat boring fights like the pox shard one in drunder are okay, just make it so people have to actually pay attention and react, and get called out if they screw up.  Turning and burning everything and streaming or watching tv while you raid because the scripts are so vanilla or can just be healed through gets old, but many of the new encounters have not been much more than that.

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Old 11-08-2012, 10:25 PM   #49
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For reference the Drinal feedback that I have no idea if was received. Keep in mind this was one pull where he got stuck at 50%. Obviously we didn't really get a chance to see much, but in the one pull these are my comments. - One of those port stone/summon things to the Drinal room would be really helpful for if you have to come back another day - Drinals agro range should be decreased or he should be made non agro so that one person porting in doesn't agro him. - He doesn't really seem to do any actual damage. He kind of just stands there with a really abysmal auto attack hit rate - All of the red text events for the entire encounter don't show up as object text in the chat window, making it really hard to actually follow them. Pop up text can be notoriously slow and unreliable. Chat window is much more reliable to actually see and figure out what is going on. - When he hits 50% and goes in his bubble he continues to script although you can't actually do anything to him (ie he still wants fighters to agro him or kills the others, etc) - It didn't come up here, but from when I was in here previously there was 2 different versions of the elevator. One where it moves really fast, and one really slow. Ideally if you hit that 50% point the elevator should start moving really fast so you aren't just standing around waiting for it to get to the top.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:38 PM   #50
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slippery wrote:

Knockbacks. Generally the first thing I recommend taking off encounters. Why? They only add frustration. Generally speaking we can't cast while flying through the air. That means you can't cure that ae that probably ticks fast enough that it will tick before you've actually hit the ground, you can't pick up for dps adds, you can't do anything, and you have to run back to the mob. Meaning you lose even more time. It's basically the most detriemental thing you can do to players because it is the most time spent without doing anything (like healing the tank). They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so extreme, but they are usually out of control. Prime Curator Undr in Temple of Rallos Zek is a good example of a knockback that isn't that bad. With that one a good tank can keep the mob from moving at all, and you have the ability to use zone geometry to keep the kb in check. Even if you do get kb'd you can land where you started in fast order and continue on, as long as enough time is left before a tick so that you have time to land and cure it.

I'd just like to add my two cents/clarification on this.

Knockbacks aren't bad once in awhile (one or two fights a zone, 40+ seconds between kbs), they just need to not be attached to aoes that will tick and kill you if you don't cure them within 2 seconds. In fact an aoe I would enjoy seeing on a harder fight is a kb that reduces cure radius by 90% with a 5-6 second tick so you would actually have to bunch up before group curing (or, single cure yourself before group curing. or, use potions.)

Speaking of using potions, could also make a fight where there's a clicky item that gives a 10 charge potion (.5 base cast) that cures 500 levels of dets, and have an aoe on a 45 second timer that casts at level 500 so you'd have to pot cure it within, say, 3 seconds or die. Would also put a 497 second time limit on the fight.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:14 PM   #51
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I always thought Waansu was a very well done fight as well. The way the timing played out for everything on that fight was awesome, at least by the time I got to pulling the mob. Nothing "annoying" happened simultaneously. You could actually use the knockback to reach the tube to click it faster if you were awesome and pot cured it. And once you got back to the raid after clicking, adds would spawn. Every time. No offset timers, just a consistent, well timed set of occurrences.

One of THE most annoying things in raiding is coincidence of scripts due to offset timers. A 30 second timer and a 45 second timer that, every few minutes, stack. Berik in PoW is a good example. Grab the mob off the main tank and get instantly hit with the memwipe/deathtouch. It's just frustrating.

I wouldn't even mind a knockback if the mobs all rooted themselves for a couple seconds following. Repositioning everything is just such a pain.

And on that note.. not being able to sprint without dying is completely lame. For many, obvious reasons.

Slippery has provided huge amounts of spot-on information. Read that.  I personally would prefer raids be delayed and not released at launch, rather than shotgun balancing that may make things unkillable after already having cleared the entire expansion, etc.

I liked the idea of the Barroddas fight or whatever that monkey's name was. The kiting and all that. I just don't think you should have to kite him once the hardmode avatar mob is dead.. and I think the priests/dps in the monkey kite group should have to help with the roots a little more. Just to give them something to do.

One of the big things I mentioned at SOELive was the importance of that end-game content. The most difficult stuff, and the purpose it serves for people who may not even be able to participate in it. It is indeed a carrot for people to chase.

I'd spare everyone the anecdote, but it's pretty significant. I used to be in a roleplaying guild. I remember walking up to the #1 paladin on my server and saying "Hooly crap, look at his gear! I wonder what he's killed, and how tough it is. I'll be that guy some day." My buddy laughed at me and said it would never happen. This was during EOF. ~2 years later, I was in the #1 guild on my server. ~3 years later, I'm in the #1 guild worldwide. And now I'm the best* around!

*Subject to debate

If it wasn't for that desire to do the stuff only the best of the best could accomplish, I wouldn't even be playing this game today. Even if only 1% of the population can participate in some of this content, the other 99% are inspired to some degree. To be the guys on the cutting edge saving Norrath every year, that used to mean something! Now, everyone can just save the world in their little solo instance.

TL;DR

Sharing a carrot is not as satisfying as earning your own carrot. Difficult content has inspirational value, beyond the people actually participating in it. Philosophical justification for putting more effort into it.

P.S. Buffrat, I hate you.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:43 PM   #52
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Love you too, Loregoth.

Somewhat related to raiding, this expansion has taken a (good!) small step towards making gear unique again; Proc names that actually make sense combined with the gear names, very few numbered procs even if there are a few floating around, sets with gear that actually work together (i.e., Famine and Feast) even if the set bonus/stats on these items aren't that unique (still clearly generated with your lootmaker 5000), it's still nice to have at least the gear names not be random stuff with Proc IV on it.

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Old 11-09-2012, 02:14 AM   #53
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The issue is mechanics not really the scripts. If you are an old time raider you should remember the dynamic in the raid mechanics used to be different. All the mechanics now are basically pass or fail. Like on Glokus your raid either burns down the music box or fails. There is no thought involved at all, it is just a brainless operation. Now compare that to Venril Sathir from the RoK era where you had to keep power between 30% and 60%. Based on the current mechanics of the game they could not even re-create that fight if they wanted to. Under current mechanics you either have 100% power or zero power. There is no in between and no concept of power management. The same thing goes for HP pools. There is no health dynamic anymore. Character is either alive or dead, there no in between. Raiders might as well only have 1hp. Long time ago in T5 through KoS there used to be a heal rotation strategy. Healers actually had something to heal. It took more than one group heal to green a group and that was a big part of the fight. It wasn't all cures. Resist gear actually mattered. Jousting had a real strategy to it depending on health and resists.

Until there is sometype of raid mechanics fix you are not going to see anything more than these pass or fail raids. That is the underlying issue behind why there is no real challenge anymore. There is just pass it is easy and fail it is impossible.

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Old 11-09-2012, 03:45 AM   #54
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I have to agree with what slippery wrote. Especially the overuse of respawning adds as a DPS check has become very annoying. It is so frustrating if you have to cancel raids on specific zones because one damage dealer is missing that day and he would be the difference between killing adds fast enough and having time to damage the main mob or being overwhelmed by the adds.

 I understand off tanks want to have something to do...well Make us split the raid like in the Nexona fight or the twins in SF. Nexona was an example of perfect balancing. But pleeeeease stop those respawning adds which raiders overgeared from the previous expansion blow right through and where lesser raiders barely scratch the main mob between respawns and wipe due to a minor mistake after 40 minutes of constant mind numbing DPSing.

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Old 11-09-2012, 07:37 AM   #55
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Hi,

First, as someone who've been raiding since t5, i'd like to say i'm not really happy with what raids have become either.

I've been raiding both in both top end and casual guilds. Back in the past, t7 kos and eof, t8 rok what used to differenciate casual guilds and hardcore guilds was the path / speed of progression. With some effort (and a few nerfs over time tbh) even casual guilds were able to clear an expansion before the next one launch. 

I definately agree that there should be something to aim for every raiders. More than just the next named, the next zone. Qeynos Claymore did make peoples really want to clear Deathtoll, and put effort in it. There was something to achieve, and every single raider wanted to achieve that. Progression through KoS had meaning other than just gearing.Progressing through RoK was fun too, and peoples had motivation from getting mythicals. Exclude Nexo/Druushk blocking most guilds for some time, but still there was something to aim at. For everyone, not only top guild raiders.

Clearing the game used to require dedication (time, effort), and teamwork.

Now, not only it takes those, but it also requires farming gear for ages, step after step. It requires the perfect setup, or you can just abort the raid.

The game currently doesnt give any reward / motivation for clearing an expansion. There is no common goal for peoples to achieve.

Eitherway it has been made so hard to do so, that with the smaller population, even less peoples can actually clear content. I do not like that mindset some peoples did share earlier in this thread. There should NOT be content that only top guilds get a shot at. I agree tho that content needs to be balanced, easy stuff, and hard stuff.

But hard stuff should be about TEAMWORK, DEDICATION, not only gearchecks be them dps checks, heal/cure checks or whatever. Every decent guild should be able to clear content before next expansion release. I don't mean all of them, but with some time and effort it should not be unreachable to most as endgame is right now because of what game mechanics have turned into.

Concurring timers within different aoes / scripts are a major drawback in current raiding. There are unfair and punishing players for no reason.

Slipery had some valid points too :

Quote:
Interrupts on ae's. Generally not good. They're kind of like fizzles, they make the game feels sloppy and don't really accomplish anything. They've been attached to most ae's over the past few years. Why is this bad? It punishes players who are actually paying attention and try to precure on non clerics, beacuse they can't actually precure since they get interrupted. Really it is something they can't control, and makes life miserable for Druids/Shamans for no real reason. This is one that should really be avoided.

Interrupt on starting to cast a spell. This is even worse. You end up sitting there spamming buttons because you aren't sure if they are working or not. It makes the game feel extremely laggy when you just sit there and spam a button. 

Hit boxes. Mobs have gotten bigger and bigger. This is a thread I was saving for after the forums get moved, but there are threads about it comparing mob size over expansion. Mobs now are generally so big you don't actually see the mob, not even kind of. You see a mass on your screen. I don't really understand why developers think that having huge mobs you can't see actually adds to the game. What is good about tanking a mob like Statue of Rallos Zek when all you are doing is staring at his feet? This gets worse because more often then not you get real hit box problems. The hit boxes wouldn't inately be a problem (except for Rangers) except that basically every AE is range based now. Within 10 or 15m and you're likely to die unless you have wards. What does this mean? When a healer is max heal range (20m) from the tank and still within that close death range of the AE, what exactly are you supposed to do? This is why people largely didn't farm Dozekar hm. It was 2 huge dragons, with AE's that would slaughter you in close range, yet you couldn't get out of close range without having the mob facing the raid. Mob facing the raid pretty much destroys your dps. You could say you could split the raid so just the tanks healers are in front of the mob, but this is where you get a combination of the other aspects of the encounter stopping that. Mainly the adds spawn on people in the raid and have a time limit to kill, so if the adds spawn on those healers you are then screwed.

Knockbacks. Generally the first thing I recommend taking off encounters. Why? They only add frustration. Generally speaking we can't cast while flying through the air. That means you can't cure that ae that probably ticks fast enough that it will tick before you've actually hit the ground, you can't pick up for dps adds, you can't do anything, and you have to run back to the mob. Meaning you lose even more time. It's basically the most detriemental thing you can do to players because it is the most time spent without doing anything (like healing the tank). They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so extreme, but they are usually out of control. Prime Curator Undr in Temple of Rallos Zek is a good example of a knockback that isn't that bad. With that one a good tank can keep the mob from moving at all, and you have the ability to use zone geometry to keep the kb in check. Even if you do get kb'd you can land where you started in fast order and continue on, as long as enough time is left before a tick so that you have time to land and cure it.

Health damage on power use. Personally, I like this and think it could be cranked up as a source of constant damage. There are 2 exceptions to this. Abilities that use a percent of power need to somehow be excluded or kept in check. A lot of the encounters in Plane of War with this if an Enchanter tries to Mana Flow without wards they 1 shot themself. That obviously creates issues of frustration that should be avoided. The second problem is that it is often tied to increased power consumption to an extent that it makes it really hard to actually keep power, especially combined with the fact that there seems to generally be 2 ae's that drain power on most of the same mobs.

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Old 11-09-2012, 07:38 AM   #56
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I'm just going to post to say I 100% agree with what Slippery is saying. His post about the mechanics section is perfect. This is probably some of the best feedback about the current state of raiding you can receive. 

There really isn't much to add to this discussion that hasn't been said. I just want the Devs to know there is at least one more player out there that feels the same way.

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Old 11-09-2012, 09:48 AM   #57
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I think Novusod has described it pretty well.

The massiv overinflation of absolutely everything has taken a away a lot of possibilities to make encounters different yet interesting.

This leaves the designers with less choices to create news, unique encounters. Stuff will be used again and again and eventually people are sick and tired of seeing these things.

Remember curses? When curses were introduced we were told what they would be special and rarely used. Now we have heroic trashmobs in Skyshrine spamming the whole group with absolutely meaningless curses.DoTs/Cures? After TSO we were told that the excessive curefest would stop. And then DoV came and it got even worse...

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:58 AM   #58
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Thank you Gninja for the interest and responses to this thread.  I'd like to also throw my thoughts in as well.

First of as a general rule don't create scripted events or uncurable detriments which take away from a classes ability to do their actual job.  There is nothing worse than some sort of stun that happens way to often hitting and I am forced to sit on my hands. Stop making things ignore abilitys like ae avoids, deathsaves etc let us use the stuff you give us.

Please also avoid the whole wack-a-mole curefest.  Dets are great and having them cured is really a huge seperater from the bad healers to the good, but too much is too much.  And please just limit the amount of curses that go out make a curse unique again but also dont make it so you need anything more than a 4 healer curse cure rotation on anything.  And don't have every encounter be so cure dependant.

Adds are always great as are multiple encounter raid fights.

Chill the hell out with the raid fails dynamic on every mob, its good on a select few encounters, but let people miss a curse cure joust move etc without blasting 23 other people in raid.  Certainly have a penalties but allow us to recover.  Examples of this could be if a curse cure is missed the healers in the group are hit with 20 dets at once that need to be cured or it heals the mob 1% every 5 seconds, or curse cure is missed and that person is charmed and given a few billion HP buff and you cannot damage the raid mob until they are killed.

Throw in just an vanilla DPS encounter once in a while with high HP so people can just wail away at it and use it to compare peens..err parses.  (Doesn't have to drop anything special hell it can just be a wall you have to break through as a raid but make it last a few minutes.)  There is nothing wrong with the occasional turn and burn mob but at least have a lore reason for them being a pushover.

Be creative.  Find new ways to make encounters awesome.  You know what would be great, have an encounter where everyone gets a buff that grows them double size they get ten times potency and hp etc and just are buffed to crazyness so people can see huge hit numbers its all relative because the mob can have a massive amount of HP.  Someone misses a curse cure the group loses the buff for 30 seconds.

Never ever again do VP lever clicking.

Please find a way to make raid encounters reactionary and not predictive.  Please get away from all this watching of ACT timers to stoneskin a huge ae thats coming.  Its ok once in a while but Id rather watch the screen this game and the raid rather than a countdown timer all night.  Id rather use my temps because I am spiking or a bunch of adds just flew in etc, instead of just timing them for AE's/Deathtouches etc.

Dont release broken encounters that are unkillable.  If its unkillable then just have it as a non agro NPC that yells out "You are not ready for my awesomeness" until you get it right.

Don't over do it on trash mobs.  POW trash is like pulling fingernails.  They don't need control effects or huge amount of cures.  Trash should be basically a time crunch but don't over do it.  Its good that POW trash drops good loot but of course named loot should be superior.

Its been said, fix hitboxes.  Mobs dont have to be a hundred feet tall.

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Old 11-09-2012, 12:11 PM   #59
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The last mob in Sleeper's Unearthed on challenge was pretty alright, too. But I haven't done Altar yet.

I usually agree, but the challenge mode of that named was dead within maybe 30 minutes of pulls. I guess relative to other encounters where you just pull and it dies, then yes, it was alright.

Drinal, while completely broken when we tested a couple weeks ago, is vitually the only thing that was even remotely challenging and it's hard to say how much of that was due to it being broken and spamming an AE.

Overall, I understand the desire to make more content more readily available to new players. Perhaps it's selfish, but I'm frankly terrified that we'll have cleared all the content by next week and have 6 months of waiting before there's any content worth doing again. I'm sure there's many, many guilds that can't survive that at this stage.

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Old 11-09-2012, 12:26 PM   #60
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Twyxx wrote:

Baroddas (challenge): 2:22

All were one-pulls except Baroddas which I think took like 5 pulls to get down.  We had a full raid, but not an ideal raid.  With fights all that short it's hard to give any kind of feedback as you can just plow thru any of the scripts except the gorilla.  Baroddas is an amusing fight. 

I think it took 3 pulls, and it was longer than that, what with the whole kiting the giant monkey around the entire room. Or are we not counting that part?

Oh, you're right.  Looks like ACT split it after Baelon.  Total fight was 6:51.

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