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Old 10-28-2012, 12:05 PM   #1
ZUES

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Their few and far between! Because rangers are tier 2 DPS and bring nothing to the raid force. It's more beneficial to a raid leader to have a Beastlord fill that slot, another tier 1 dps or utility class. Devs, can you please give rangers a little more desirability for raids?

Ideas:

Raid wide utility like that of a bruiser. Lowers hate, adds dps and perhaps increases haste by enough points to give raidwide flurry. The haste cap once reached will convert to flurry and make rangers much more "purposeful" for raid leaders.

Another idea might be to make Focus Aim a raid wide buff and give it a longer duration.

Anything to make rangers actually wanted in raids again would be much appreciated! A return to tier 1 dps would be nice but I'm afraid that might not be enough considering what Beastlords bring to groups. Thanks!

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:12 PM   #2
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I couldn't agree more bro. We do have a ranga but he only secures his raid slot because he's been with the guild for a very loooong time. Would love to see a couple more rangers join the guild. But right now they just arent needed compared to BLs, sins and even swashies. Add a dirge and thats our scout group make up. Until there is a reason to bring in a ranger we will never recruit one.

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:18 PM   #3
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ZUES wrote:

Their few and far between! Because rangers are tier 2 DPS and bring nothing to the raid force. It's more beneficial to a raid leader to have a Beastlord fill that slot, another tier 1 dps or utility class. Devs, can you please give rangers a little more desirability for raids?

Ideas:

Raid wide utility like that of a bruiser. Lowers hate, adds dps and perhaps increases haste by enough points to give raidwide flurry. The haste cap once reached will convert to flurry and make rangers much more "purposeful" for raid leaders.

Another idea might be to make Focus Aim a raid wide buff and give it a longer duration.

Anything to make rangers actually wanted in raids again would be much appreciated! A return to tier 1 dps would be nice but I'm afraid that might not be enough considering what Beastlords bring to groups. Thanks!

We have a ranger and he does alright. But I do have to agree with this. They need a little lovin. Love the raidwide flurry idea btw.

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Old 10-28-2012, 02:59 PM   #4
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Most of this is already covered extensively in the other thread, but wanted to touch on ranger dps.  We actually are t1 scouts, maybe slightly behind assassins and slightly ahead of swashes depending on the fight.  If a ranger and a beastlord are given the same gear, group set up and buffs a ranger will be close, but a little behind the beastlord. 

The problem is that a beastlord and ranger will not be given the same setups because every single buff is better on beastlords because of pet proc'ing.  Pet proc'ing is what makes beastlords overpowered.  If you took that away they'd be in line with assassins and rangers as far as self-dps cause the buffs would go to the better performer and not just the beastlord every time.

If you stopped pet proc'ing you would have the flexibility to fix some of the broken things on beastlords like primal hit rates.  As of now, they're overpowered so you can't afford to fix anything that would widen the gap.

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Old 10-28-2012, 05:51 PM   #5
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Twyxx wrote:

Most of this is already covered extensively in the other thread, but wanted to touch on ranger dps.  We actually are t1 scouts, maybe slightly behind assassins and slightly ahead of swashes depending on the fight.  If a ranger and a beastlord are given the same gear, group set up and buffs a ranger will be close, but a little behind the beastlord. 

The problem is that a beastlord and ranger will not be given the same setups because every single buff is better on beastlords because of pet proc'ing.  Pet proc'ing is what makes beastlords overpowered.  If you took that away they'd be in line with assassins and rangers as far as self-dps cause the buffs would go to the better performer and not just the beastlord every time.

If you stopped pet proc'ing you would have the flexibility to fix some of the broken things on beastlords like primal hit rates.  As of now, they're overpowered so you can't afford to fix anything that would widen the gap.

Pretty much this.

I'd like to see some damage balanced but right now its not nearly as big of a problem as our COMPLETE lack of utility. The addition of erollisi's arrow on natures focus with CoE addresses this problem a little but like I have been saying, everyone else gets some sort of equivalent. So unless Erollisi's Arrow does significantly more DPS than every other DPS classes group proc it isn't closing the gap, just moving it.

Rangers need to get their own utility that gets added while other classes don't get an equivalent. A properly added one will close the gap. Then adding abilities across the board will continue to be balanced opposed to just moving everyone up evenly while maintaining the ranger's gap.

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:26 AM   #6
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I think Beastlords are right where their supposed to be. I don't propose nerfing any class! I just don't think Rangers aren't where they need to be on the parse. Just give rangers some raidwide utility and a boost in dps!

And no, we're not tier one scouts! You may find a situational encounter where the ranger has a good parse but zonewide they don't even come close to any T1 dps class.

One thing is for certain, there is a gamewide hesitation from almost all raid guilds about letting rangers join their ranks. And it's not because of a few hypothetical reasons people have typed in forum posts.

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Old 10-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #7
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Beastlords right where they're supposed to be? Lol.

Pets all need to have their AI fixed (especially summoner scout pets) and remove the ability to proc procs.

Also Twyxx parses fine most of the time. ~

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:08 PM   #8
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Ok well I'm not here to discuss other classes. Rangers need desirability. Period.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:10 PM   #9
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Assassins need their hp debuffs nerfed. That's about the only thing keep rangers from being "desirable". Personally, I like rangers. And as I've said before, increase melee range on the 5m cas to 10 and reduce cast times of everything to 1 second max, majority being .5s preferred.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #10
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

 Personally, I like rangers.

Unfortunatley, a lot of raid guilds, recuiters, officers and leaders alike, don't share our like for Rangers. They bring next to nothing to a raid force. I want to play mine, hence my motivation. But until all rangers get some kind of utility or benefit to bring to a raid, we will be sitting on the sidelines playing a class we don't want to play.

I like your idea of reduced cast times tho.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:24 PM   #11
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Assassins need their hp debuffs nerfed. That's about the only thing keep rangers from being "desirable". Personally, I like rangers. And as I've said before, increase melee range on the 5m cas to 10 and reduce cast times of everything to 1 second max, majority being .5s preferred.

For this xpac, that and making all ca's castable on the move would probably be enough to get us in the ballpark of assassins.  The hp debuffs should be 6% max.  With the new changes it's 12.5%.  Way too high for balance.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:33 PM   #12
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ZUES wrote:

And no, we're not tier one scouts! You may find a situational encounter where the ranger has a good parse but zonewide they don't even come close to any T1 dps class.

Check out the parse thread on Flames.  Other than what Buffratx, Koncept and the Russian necro are doing we're at least in the tier with everyone else.  The dps potential of the class is there.  Problem is there are only a handful of rangers pushing the max potential. 

They could make the class easier, but when 40%+ of your dps is from auto/passive already there's not too much more you can do to lessen the challenge.  10m melee range and casting on the move would be about all I'd want to see for difficulty improvements.

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Old 10-29-2012, 06:22 PM   #13
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Twyxx wrote:

Check out the parse thread on Flames.  Other than what Buffratx, Koncept and the Russian necro are doing we're at least in the tier with everyone else.  The dps potential of the class is there.  Problem is there are only a handful of rangers pushing the max potential.

And you don't see rangers able to exploit that potential because that is all we have, DPS potential. I'll remember for the rest of my days when I got a good group for clearing PoW, topped the parse 95% pf the entire time usually by being over 1 mill DPS.

I don't mind the class penalties themselves but per my new sig, we have nothing to show for it. If we had DPS and utility easily matching that of beastlords and assassins you wouldn't hear a peep out of me.

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:03 PM   #14
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Give Rangers Raidwide buff of +5 atk range!!! Who wouldnt want that?

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:03 PM   #15
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lodgepark8485 wrote:

Give Rangers Raidwide buff of +5 atk range!!! Who wouldnt want that?

n/m I misunderstood what you meant by range until I read your other post.

IDK, I still don't think that would be enough to bring a ranger up to the other t1 scouts.

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:14 PM   #16
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Twyxx wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Assassins need their hp debuffs nerfed. That's about the only thing keep rangers from being "desirable". Personally, I like rangers. And as I've said before, increase melee range on the 5m cas to 10 and reduce cast times of everything to 1 second max, majority being .5s preferred.

For this xpac, that and making all ca's castable on the move would probably be enough to get us in the ballpark of assassins.  The hp debuffs should be 6% max.  With the new changes it's 12.5%.  Way too high for balance.

This will never happen as long as there are PvP servers.  Anyone that's played a ranger from when the game went live know a lot of the penalties rangers have now are direct results of when they added PvP to the game.

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #17
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take the time to go look at all the threads i have started and you will notice that, they are in efforts to achieve greater balance.

 one thread is about proc damage not being uniform, meaning that some of the professional procs are double dipping into potency and others are not, the bit one being inquis procs.   thought beastlord pets could stand to loose proc damage and still be a great damage source if you take away proc damage from a summoner they're going to be in bard/chanter dps range, so that's dumb.

 the other thread is about giving scouts comparable reuse on par with casters and even tanks since even some tanks reach 100% self buffed.  right now you can only have one or two prevy to jcap/roa and this is a HUGE boost to scout damage and that's why some raid forces say.. our BL is top damage other say our assassin is top damage and others might say our swash/ranger is top damage.  because in each of those set up's that particular scout is receiving that attention.

i want raid wide damage so every class has about the same buffs with acceptable bard/chanter participants but that's not gona happen because devs don't embrace the simplicity but making reuse items available for scouts or at least making raid buffs "until cancelled" would be a great help to scout equality.

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:24 AM   #18
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I'm not terribly worried about problems that effect all scouts/many classes or are issues of specific classes being overpowered. If these issues were addressed, we would still be lagging behind. Rangers have 'extra' problems exclusive to them that are glaring.

Hence these ranger specific threads.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:44 AM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm not terribly worried about problems that effect all scouts/many classes or are issues of specific classes being overpowered. If these issues were addressed, we would still be lagging behind. Rangers have 'extra' problems exclusive to them that are glaring.

Hence these ranger specific threads.

Agreed 100%. A few people in the forums are suggesting that: /says in a DEEP voice "rangers are just fine" and "rangers are tier 1 dps" and "rangers are wanted in raid guilds".

{Insert a word I'm not allowed to say here} bullschmidt is about as close as I can get.

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:02 AM   #20
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Assassins need their hp debuffs nerfed. That's about the only thing keep rangers from being "desirable". Personally, I like rangers. And as I've said before, increase melee range on the 5m cas to 10 and reduce cast times of everything to 1 second max, majority being .5s preferred.

i would change the middle prestige to increase melee attack range by 100%  also decrease minimum ranged attack range by 100% along the lines of the coecer str line this would make the melee combat arts have a longer range  and give the ranged ca's/ranged auto-attack a shorter one and fix a good chunk of ranger issues by giving them a bigger "sweet spot" this would also make a  great grp buff for a scout grp...(HINT)

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:48 PM   #21
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I like the middle line fine and its generally balanced when looking at other prestiges.

The problem is with fundamental ranger mechanics that need to be changed without using up prestige/AA slots and abilities. If they do need to use up such spots there are few candidates good for replacing in the EoF tree. Buffrat is pretty spot on with his suggestions.

My problem is classes have their overt 'benefit' when you bring them in a group or raid, rangers do not have this. Portions of their DPS being usable at range and an accuracy buff when the mechanics of accuracy are in doubt aren't compelling reasons to bring a ranger over another DPS class.

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:20 PM   #22
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Even without my suggestions, rangers got it good this expansion imo.

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:25 PM   #23
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Oh I think so too. I really like the stuff they added to rangers.

The problem is we still have a gap that just being shuffled around that needs to be addressed before we are truly even with other top DPS classes. I don't think the devs that were responsible for such problems are even at SoE anymore but I would still like to see them solved.

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:50 PM   #24
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there are always going to be better group set ups but reuse is much too powerful to be reserved to one scout in the raid. 

  you guys might no agree but i assure you that if scouts got the same reuse as casters/tanks you would see scout damage even out much more.   it's impossible to have enough jcap's/roa's for every scout in the raid and that's in pro raids.    factor in noobs that still jcap/roa a caster or a guard and you have the situation that most scouts need to deal with because of this reuse short coming

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:51 PM   #25
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Pretty sure rangers are the only dps scouts that have two good prestige lines.

So there's that.

Honestly if I had to pick one thing to complain about specifically to get changed it would be Hidden Shot's cast time.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:35 PM   #26
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Could have 5 good prestige lines it wouldn't really matter since you can only use one at a time (for now). If we had saved specs like Rift or a portable mirror that could be a plus.

Hidden Shot has to be one of the worst CA's in the game just because of its cast time. I'm assuming it has such a huge cast time because its ranged and its reuse/damage ratio. Who ever balanced or 'scored' out ranger ranged CA's was a serious bad.

There's lots of 'quality of life' things that could be done for rangers to just make them more fun which in truth is what would impact me the most. Unfortunately most rangers did not happen upon the various rare scenarios the few moderate to high end raiding rangers happened upon and are pretty much screwed when it comes to wanting to move up.

Why get a ranger when you can get one of the other classes that can DPS juat as much as well as do other things? So far from what I have heard people get rangers because its better than another DPS class poorly played, but absolutely nothing to do with the ranger class itself.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:36 PM   #27
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Pretty sure rangers are the only dps scouts that have two good prestige lines.

Except they don't.   Right side isn't good at all right now (would never outparse the left side even on the heaviest current aoe fights).  And left side is basically a wash vs double conversion. 

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Old 11-01-2012, 03:42 PM   #28
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I found double conversion to be worse than left side by a lot on the dummy. Did you test that before or after they added the potency proc to the left line?

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:26 PM   #29
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aeyinar wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Assassins need their hp debuffs nerfed. That's about the only thing keep rangers from being "desirable". Personally, I like rangers. And as I've said before, increase melee range on the 5m cas to 10 and reduce cast times of everything to 1 second max, majority being .5s preferred.

i would change the middle prestige to increase melee attack range by 100%  also decrease minimum ranged attack range by 100% along the lines of the coecer str line this would make the melee combat arts have a longer range  and give the ranged ca's/ranged auto-attack a shorter one and fix a good chunk of ranger issues by giving them a bigger "sweet spot" this would also make a  great grp buff for a scout grp...(HINT)

This will never happen as long as there are PvP servers.

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:32 PM   #30
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Crychtonn wrote:

Twyxx wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Assassins need their hp debuffs nerfed. That's about the only thing keep rangers from being "desirable". Personally, I like rangers. And as I've said before, increase melee range on the 5m cas to 10 and reduce cast times of everything to 1 second max, majority being .5s preferred.

For this xpac, that and making all ca's castable on the move would probably be enough to get us in the ballpark of assassins.  The hp debuffs should be 6% max.  With the new changes it's 12.5%.  Way too high for balance.

This will never happen as long as there are PvP servers.  Anyone that's played a ranger from when the game went live know a lot of the penalties rangers have now are direct results of when they added PvP to the game.

qft

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