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Old 04-26-2006, 12:23 PM   #1
Luke1

 
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Ok so a few days ago I almost deleted my 43 berserker.
 
I was in Runnyeye and we had a 34 dirge in the group.  We were fighting cerberus (I think he conned blue ^^^, possibly green).  Anyways I started the fight out with master 2 mad cry, then followed with adept 1 group taunt (enrage maybe?  I forget) and then hit him with adept 1 taunt strike (whatever the newest one was, the highest lvl one I have).  Then after that I used my adept 1 group mitigation buff, then a few self buffs (newest adept 1 stifle rage and another newly learned hold the line type spell).  Anyways the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing dirge took agro and I couldnt peel back (I had to use rescue because of agro problems the fight prior where the healer -- 37 defiler) took agro.
 
Aren't we supposed to  be agro magnets?  I have this problem all the time and I chain taunt all the time except for when the mob is trash and will do no damage if it turns. 
 
My main might only be 43 but I know how to tank.  Do I have to farm my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to get adept 3's to be an effective tank?  I guess I might be over doing it a bit here because most of the time I can hold agro but this happens at least a few times every run out.  If someone peels I am literally lucky to get agro back (again, I am chain taunting -- taunt, group taunt [even on single mobs], and striking taunt).  As far as Im concerned I should never lose agro.  Let alone lose agro to someone 9 levels under me on a single target boss mob. 
 
Another thing, forget holding agro on groups of mobs. 
 
Hopefully I'm doing something wrong here and you guys can tell me how to fix it. 
 
 
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Old 04-26-2006, 04:22 PM   #2
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Part of our aggro management are damage also. What kind of weapons do you have? And are you using Adept1+ damage CA?Nice to see more people use the bufftrick tho *thumbs up* SMILEY
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Old 04-26-2006, 04:52 PM   #3
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Luke1h7 wrote:
Ok so a few days ago I almost deleted my 43 berserker.
 
I was in Runnyeye and we had a 34 dirge in the group.  We were fighting cerberus (I think he conned blue ^^^, possibly green).  Anyways I started the fight out with master 2 mad cry, then followed with adept 1 group taunt (enrage maybe?  I forget) and then hit him with adept 1 taunt strike (whatever the newest one was, the highest lvl one I have).  Then after that I used my adept 1 group mitigation buff, then a few self buffs (newest adept 1 stifle rage and another newly learned hold the line type spell).  Anyways the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing dirge took agro and I couldnt peel back (I had to use rescue because of agro problems the fight prior where the healer -- 37 defiler) took agro.
Make sure the dirge is using Slip (hate reducer) everytime it's up and casts Hyran's Angry Sonata (hate gain) on you.  If you're tanking, just keep whatever you have in the Hold the Line series up.  Toss out some attacks inbetween the buffs.  Our buffs don't add much hate at all, it's more important to use some melee combat arts for the purpose of hate gain.  That pause in your attacks while you were buffing is all the dirge needs to pass you on the threat list.  You have an attack speed debuff, focus debuff, and crush/pierce/slash debuff.  Get them out there early and keep them on the mob.  You'll be taking less damage and the mob will really hate you for the debuffs.  Weapon Shield might not seem like much, but keep it up everytime it refreshes.
 
Aren't we supposed to  be agro magnets?  I have this problem all the time and I chain taunt all the time except for when the mob is trash and will do no damage if it turns.
Berserkers are very good with keeping aggro.   However, it's no longer trivial.  Chain taunting isn't enough.  You have to use your damage abilities.  It's also a group effort.  Most DPS classes can pull mobs off you on a whim.
 
My main might only be 43 but I know how to tank.  Do I have to farm my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to get adept 3's to be an effective tank?  I guess I might be over doing it a bit here because most of the time I can hold agro but this happens at least a few times every run out.  If someone peels I am literally lucky to get agro back (again, I am chain taunting -- taunt, group taunt [even on single mobs], and striking taunt).  As far as Im concerned I should never lose agro.  Let alone lose agro to someone 9 levels under me on a single target boss mob. 
 
Another thing, forget holding agro on groups of mobs. 
 
Hopefully I'm doing something wrong here and you guys can tell me how to fix it.
Adept 3's are just icing on the cake when it comes to normal grouping.  It just makes it slightly easier to hold aggro and do slightly more damage as well as protect yourself a little better.  You should still be fine with adept 1's.  Berserkers excel at holding aggro on groups of mobs.  At 43, you have 3 AoE's, your offensive stance, Weapon Shield, the Hold the Line series, and the Wall of * series in addition to your encounter taunt.  All of those can be used to gain hate on multiple mobs without even switching targets.  
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Old 04-26-2006, 05:34 PM   #4
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not sure if this move is available at that level, but its basically a % chance to taunt encounter when you are hit, since I was 50 after the big combat revamp not sure if lower lvls have it, but in higher end you gettin hit is a MUST for holding aggro with zerker, so lay off the huge stuns right away and take some hits to help build additional aggro, also popping major dmg moves off jump helps get high hate off start as well

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Old 04-26-2006, 09:38 PM   #5
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First in the line becomes available at level 4 ... so yep SMILEY
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:00 PM   #6
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There are actually two abilities that have a % chance to proc hate when being hit.  The Hold the Line series which the OP mentioned, and Insolent Gibe.  It's probably not accurate to call it Hold the Line anymore with the new low level stuff, but most people should know what he's referring to.   The description of that combat art line does not state it taunts the encounter, where Insolent Gibe does state that (whether it actually does or not is another story).  Insolent Gibe isn't available until level 52.  As the OP mentioned there was a defiler (wards) and dirge (stoneskin) in the group, there's a good chance Hold the Line wasn't doing much for him. 

Message Edited by uux on 04-26-2006 02:07 PM

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Old 04-26-2006, 10:33 PM   #7
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Sounds like you know what you are doing....but that doesn't mean that the DPS does. If they go all out DPS from the word go, you wont hold agro....period. Tell them to back off of the CA's until about 75% mob health.

 

Also, there is another taunt for zerkers that most don't use. Goading Gesture. Its rfom the gnoll expansion, level 20, but it scales with you. It has as much hate as our single target taunt at adept 3, but has a chance to proc for double hate.

Agro control is not just the tank's responsibility.

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Old 04-26-2006, 11:30 PM   #8
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some dirges put the hate song on themselves thinking... OOO STR IM SO UBER... i do my job [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good and if they take agro i dont worry about it...ill try to get agro back i mean but if they die i done feel at fault cause they got a 42% hate increase on themselves.
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Old 04-26-2006, 11:55 PM   #9
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Adept 3 spells or better would help....but either way, I would suggest buffing up a little before the pull (with hold the line stuff and/or the 30 sec mitigation buff), then taunt and damage.  Use the herioc oportunities as often as you can (which ends in a taunt).  A good part of holding the aggro is dealing damage.  And if you are in defensive stance along with using the "hold the line" type buffs, this severly reduces the damage output.  Unless its a really tough name, I'd suggest using offensive stance because of the extra slashing, crushing, piercing damage, along with the proc that deals damage.  Of course you can only do this if you are confident with your healer(s) and confident you don't actually need the defensive stance for whatever you're fighting.  Not sure what it's called at your level, but at 70, I have a spell called taunting defense, which has a 25% chance to deal damage AND taunt, and it procs as you get hit, so if you're tanking, that's quite often.  It'll get a little easier for you at 52 when you get insolent gibe...just have to be careful using this one, because it grabs everything, even out of encounter, with a 15m (I think) range.  What this does is, gives you hate every time any of the mobs are hit.  So when people are on different targets, and/or aoe'ing, it keeps your hate up there...but again, you have to do some damage too.  It will also be easier when you find a group of people that you can regualrly play with, that gets to know your style, and when it's safe to drop the bombs. 
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Old 04-27-2006, 01:08 AM   #10
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Dirge here, yeah, the stupid guy probally put the TANK buff on himself, as some noob Dirges do.  I only ever put it on myself when I am tanking for a group, cause it takes aggro and holds it great.
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Old 04-27-2006, 04:41 PM   #11
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FightGame wrote:
Adept 3 spells or better would help....but either way, I would suggest buffing up a little before the pull (with hold the line stuff and/or the 30 sec mitigation buff), then taunt and damage.  Use the herioc oportunities as often as you can (which ends in a taunt).  A good part of holding the aggro is dealing damage.  And if you are in defensive stance along with using the "hold the line" type buffs, this severly reduces the damage output.  Unless its a really tough name, I'd suggest using offensive stance because of the extra slashing, crushing, piercing damage, along with the proc that deals damage.  Of course you can only do this if you are confident with your healer(s) and confident you don't actually need the defensive stance for whatever you're fighting.  Not sure what it's called at your level, but at 70, I have a spell called taunting defense, which has a 25% chance to deal damage AND taunt, and it procs as you get hit, so if you're tanking, that's
That would be the Hold the Line series the OP stated was being used.  Originally, the first in the line was called Hold the Line, but with the low level revamp it no longer is.  It's a 20% chance to counterattack and taunt when hit.  Now the odds were against you already with the low 20% chance.  The OP was grouped with a dirge and a defiler.  A dirge can proc stoneskin, and a defiler uses wards.  Both of which restrict this ability from being used.  I'm not positive about stoneskin, but it definately does not proc through a ward.
 quite often.  It'll get a little easier for you at 52 when you get insolent gibe...just have to be careful using this one, because it grabs everything, even out of encounter, with a 15m (I think) range.  What this does is, gives you hate every time any of the mobs are hit.  So when people are on different targets, and/or aoe'ing, it keeps your hate up there...but again, you have to do some damage too.  It will also be easier when you find a group of people that you can regualrly play with, that gets to know your style, and when it's safe to drop the bombs. 
Insolent Gibe works the same way as the Hold the Line series in that the secondary effect requires the tank to be hit.  50% chance to proc a taunt, no counterattack.  I know this does proc through stoneskin, but once again wards restrict it from going off.
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Old 04-27-2006, 06:11 PM   #12
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One way is to use 1h + shield in offensive stance. Use your damage combat arts instead of buffs. The damage combat arts will generate more hate than buffs. Berserker damage combat arts has debuffs, stun and interrupts in them. Make full use of them to generate agro. With ward on you, you lose some of the taunting edge. As the mobs are not hitting you, the proc in the taunting defense line will not fire off. With the wall series of combat arts and defensive stance, your offensive output will be crippled. Overall, you'll generate less agro in defensive stance. Since the mobs that you are fighting are only blue or green con heroic , go into offensive stance. Part of the berserker agro generation is through damage. And berserker is very good at doing damage especially to group encounter.
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Old 04-27-2006, 06:39 PM   #13
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I do think that if you tank on a regular basis that your taunts do need to be A3 or better. A1 will not cut it. As someone mentioned already, our taunts don't generate quite enough hate...so they need to be upgraded as high as possible. Also, the dps classes are uprgrading their dps to A3 or higher and you need to try to keep up.
 
Lastly, you MUST squeeze off some dps between taunts. They will have better aggro management than the group buff over the course of the fight. Save the buff to help "recapture" lost aggro.
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:01 PM   #14
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As most of the people on the board have said, if the DPS is going full blown from the word "Go!" then you're going to lose aggro and its going to take work to get it back.As someone who plays a 49 zerker as a co-main to a 47 wizzie, I've played on both sides of the spectrum to know what to in order to keep hate on the tanks.My tips for being a good zerker tank:
  1. UPGRADE TAUNTS! - I cannot stress this part enough.  Adept III or better for your taunts.  By keeping my taunts up around that level, I've been able to keep hate on me almost non-stop, even when the DPS players in the group are going crazy.
  2. Upgrade CA's - Same as number one.  The more damage you deliver, the greater your hate increase comes.
  3. Time delay for DPSes. - This is as almost as big as number one.  When I play my zerker, I make it clear to the people I group with to give me a five-to-ten second real time edge before coming in to take the mob down.  This gives me time to build up enough hate to where it becomes almost impossible for anyone to strip it off of me.
  4. Self-buff before pull - Use Bind Wound and the Weapon Shield line of defensive CA's in order to help keep hate.
Outside of that, the other thing that you need to make sure as the tank of the group is that you are buffed properly and DPSes KNOW to make use of their hate reducing abilities.Very common stuff you can find in previous posts but the most simplest advice sometimes is the best.- Majeh
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:48 PM   #15
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Taunts are great however dps is king.  Pop off your highest dmg attacks the second after you fire off you first single target taunt. The cycle through you other CA's.  Also cast you Mit/Defensive buffs right before you pull.  This not only gives you more time to establish aggro it will be up that much sooner during the fight if you need em again.
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:58 AM   #16
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At 54 and 64 there is a master II choice for an uninterruptable group taunt. Might be a choice at 44 too, I dont remember. I cast that right after I pull EVERY SINGLE BATTLE. First skill I use everytime (of course I usually pull with openwounds and rampage already up =). I spam it whenever it is up during the fight. The problem with using any other skill or DPS to establish aggro early is that you will frequently be stunned when the mob-wave breaks on your pointy head. Spend 10 seconds stunned at the beginning of a fight without establishing aggro first and you are gonna be helping the casters and priest pick their teeth out of the dirt after the group revives.

IMHO if you pick any master II option other than the group taunt - you are wrong.

 

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Old 04-28-2006, 06:50 AM   #17
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Thanks for the tips guys.  I was a little [Removed for Content] off when I posted this.  I do some CAs imbetween taunts but I dont use them quite as much as you guys are sayin.  Basically I use CA's / taunts (taunting higher priority, maybe I should change that) as much as I can but keep it to where I never have to rest. One thing I never do is tank in offensive stance; I've just always switched to defense.  I think my power is a bit low as well, but I dont know why.  Power is only 1634 at lvl 44.  Stats are as followsSTR = 168 (Ive picked all STR racials and maybe one defense in hopes of being dps, maybe I went a bit overboard :smileytongue:)STA = 109AGI = 73INT = 37WIS = 51Im an ogre by the way.  Could you guys give me some tips on when to use offensive stance and maybe some on power (I really cant afford ebon without a few days dedicated to farming which I dont think I can take).  I was thinking of just waiting till 50 or 51+ and getting cobalt somehow. 

Message Edited by Luke1h7 on 04-27-2006 08:38 PM

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Old 04-28-2006, 06:15 PM   #18
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I start each battle in offensive stance, usually with rampage or openwounds or both up. As I mentioned above I pop off the AE taunt right off the bat and then set in to DPS. IMHO there is no substitute for building up hate right off the bat, and I can crank out some massive DPS up front that really gets the mobs attention. After my initial DPS burst I wait to see how fast my health drops - and if it looks like the healer can't keep up I will drop into defensive stance. Still dying to fast? controlled rage. Still dying too fast? Wall of wrath (or whatever its called).

After the hate gain up front i seldom have problems holding aggro if I go defensive later in the battle.

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Old 04-28-2006, 08:11 PM   #19
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Thanks for the input, I'll try that and see if I can find a rythm for myself.  Never thought to switch midfight.  I kind of just always figured the more defense the better, but I never had any problems with agro up until now. 
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:31 PM   #20
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OK do NOT delete your zerker. There are some nuances to aggro/tanking that took me a while to get ahold of but now that I understand them it has helped with aggro a LOT.
 
1) Like someone else said throw up your mit/def buff BEFORE you pull. Also don't use them all at once unless the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is all the way in the fan because it nerfs the heck outta your dps. Damage=Aggro
 
2) Watch your positioning. You will NEVER pull a mob off anyone from a distance if they are hitting it hard and are standing right next to it. Aggro has a proximity factor to it now and it takes some getting used to. However you can use it to your advantage if you are on the ball (and your people are paying attention.) Throw out a stun and have them back off and THEN while you are closest follow with taunts, damage and/or rescue if all else fails.
 
3) Watch for taunt resists and let the group know if you got a double taunt resist. This is HUGE especially when your wizzy buddy is in love with ball of flames.
 
4) Tank in Offensive Stance and get your healers used to it. Use a shield if you have to but our offensive stance is a very nice aggro generating tool. Use your Defensive stance like a buff and drop into it after laying down the initial hurt on the mob while you wait for your ca timers to come up if need be.
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:18 AM   #21
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Artalis the Elder wrote:
OK do NOT delete your zerker. There are some nuances to aggro/tanking that took me a while to get ahold of but now that I understand them it has helped with aggro a LOT.
 
1) Like someone else said throw up your mit/def buff BEFORE you pull. Also don't use them all at once unless the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is all the way in the fan because it nerfs the heck outta your dps. Damage=Aggro
 
2) Watch your positioning. You will NEVER pull a mob off anyone from a distance if they are hitting it hard and are standing right next to it. Aggro has a proximity factor to it now and it takes some getting used to. However you can use it to your advantage if you are on the ball (and your people are paying attention.) Throw out a stun and have them back off and THEN while you are closest follow with taunts, damage and/or rescue if all else fails.
 
3) Watch for taunt resists and let the group know if you got a double taunt resist. This is HUGE especially when your wizzy buddy is in love with ball of flames.
 
4) Tank in Offensive Stance and get your healers used to it. Use a shield if you have to but our offensive stance is a very nice aggro generating tool. Use your Defensive stance like a buff and drop into it after laying down the initial hurt on the mob while you wait for your ca timers to come up if need be.



Have to say this is all great stuff, and if you are shield equipped stun is easy ... and then you beat the *** outta them just to make sure.

I tend to have not many problems with the hate side as long as the DPS mob lay back just a little at the start, then they have to work really hard to get hate off me. To be honest those that work that hard to attract hate deserve to die a couple of times. Maybe they might learn the lesson that it is not all about DPS.

Shield and offensive stance makes it a little easier on your healers that 2 handed and defensive and you get more aggro.

Works well for me, of course everyone has their favorites.

Other thing I would say is that my Zerker has levelled real fast even when soloing as with the AoEs you can mow down groups quite nicely. I would say soloing heroics is more effective with my illusionist though (so far), but my Zerker is lots of fun!!

 

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