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Old 09-25-2005, 04:21 PM   #1
Pa

 
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I looted a 928 shield factor kite shield the other day, thinking hey thats like 25% more shield factor thats got to be a good upgrade, right? Nope, my avoidance was lower than when using Zalaks Tower Shield of Dominion which has +4parry and 6agility. Yep, +4 parry and 6agility is greater than 220 shield factor for numbers displayed, so I thought to myself hrmm there has to be some underlying mechanic there even if its not in a displayed number, surely shield factor means something, so I decided to do a parse. Oh and the 928 shield factor is the exact same avoidance as a 708 shield with no mods and no agility.

Really after seeing the numbers I cant come to any conclusion at all other than this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is just dumb. Shield Factor means nothing, Defensive skill buffs mean very little. Would be nice if we could get a parse from all classes doing the same mobs at 55 but it isnt likely. Brawlers get free innate shields plus the lessened riposte rate from being able to use a high delay 2her while tanking. We get to pick one of the 2 evils, less ripostes but no blocking or a chance to block with more ripostes, we also get uber big shields with very high shield factors that do absolutely nothing too, so it isnt all bad...

If shields are going to have the same chance to block, no matter whether its kite or tower, or what the shield factor is, maybe it would be a good idea to add mitigation to shields to distinguish them from each other and previous tiers, instead of some number that means nothing. As it is, either shield factor is tied to avoidance / buffs and capped (see offensive stance with shield vs defensive stance) making shield factor utterly useless (the only thing that would matter for a shield is the stats and proc) or shield factor is tied to some stat.. str maybe since str is higher with offensive stance on, that wouldnt make any sense at all to do that though so I'm guessing its #1, which doesnt make much sense either.

Would be really nice to see some Brawler and Knight parses. Not trash talk, not opinions, just parses and observations.

All parses done on lvl 58-59 cyclopse in PoF while I was level 55, pulling same exact spawn points for all tests, same buffs throughout the tests, only weapons and shields were changed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

928 Shield Factor - Kite, Using 1her with 1.7dly, defensive stance

Parsed a total of 247 estimated battles

Total Melee Dmg: 139173 over 2977 seconds

Total Skill Dmg: 313284 over 2977 seconds

You landed 982 hits and missed 558 times.

Overall 64% of your hits landed and 36% missed.

You landed 1833 skills.

Overall 87.62% of your skills landed, 259 (12.38%) were resisted,

0 (0.00%) fizzled, and 0 (0.00%) were interrupted

Highest melee hit: 392

Lowest melee hit: 11

Calculated Melee DPS = 46.749

Calculated Skill DPS = 105.234

Calculated Total DPS = 151.984

Total Damage Taken: 334213 over 2977 seconds

Calculated Total IDPS = 112.265

Total Damage Warded: 0

Total Hits Blocked: 230

Calculated BPM = 5 (4.636)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

708 Shield Factor - Tower, Using 1her with 1.7dly, defensive stance

Parsed a total of 227 estimated battles

Total Melee Dmg: 137842 over 2832 seconds

Total Skill Dmg: 291526 over 2832 seconds

You landed 910 hits and missed 535 times.

Overall 63% of your hits landed and 37% missed.

You landed 1723 skills.

Overall 88.68% of your skills landed, 220 (11.32%) were resisted,

0 (0.00%) fizzled, and 0 (0.00%) were interrupted

Highest melee hit: 406

Lowest melee hit: 25

Calculated Melee DPS = 48.673

Calculated Skill DPS = 102.939

Calculated Total DPS = 151.612

Total Damage Taken: 284898 over 2832 seconds

Calculated Total IDPS = 100.599

Total Damage Warded: 0

Total Hits Blocked: 195

Calculated BPM = 4 (4.131)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Shield, Using 2her with 2.7dly, defensive stance

Parsed a total of 239 estimated battles

Total Melee Dmg: 193788 over 3052 seconds

Total Skill Dmg: 323076 over 3052 seconds

You landed 686 hits and missed 434 times.

Overall 61% of your hits landed and 39% missed.

You landed 2187 skills.

Overall 89.52% of your skills landed, 256 (10.48%) were resisted,

0 (0.00%) fizzled, and 0 (0.00%) were interrupted

Highest melee hit: 463

Lowest melee hit: 52

Calculated Melee DPS = 63.495

Calculated Skill DPS = 105.857

Calculated Total DPS = 169.352

Total Damage Taken: 371434 over 3052 seconds

Calculated Total IDPS = 121.701

Total Damage Warded: 0

Total Hits Blocked: 0

Calculated BPM = 0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

928 Shield Factor - Kite, 1.7dly 1her and offensive stance

Parsed a total of 178 estimated battles

Total Melee Dmg: 119633 over 1945 seconds

Total Skill Dmg: 258359 over 1945 seconds

You landed 740 hits and missed 174 times.

Overall 81% of your hits landed and 19% missed.

You landed 1399 skills.

Overall 92.47% of your skills landed, 114 (7.53%) were resisted,

0 (0.00%) fizzled, and 0 (0.00%) were interrupted

Highest melee hit: 379

Lowest melee hit: 24

Calculated Melee DPS = 61.507

Calculated Skill DPS = 132.832

Calculated Total DPS = 194.340

Total Damage Taken: 235874 over 1945 seconds

Calculated Total IDPS = 121.271

Total Damage Warded: 0

Total Hits Blocked: 184

Calculated BPM = 6 (5.676)

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Old 09-25-2005, 09:46 PM   #2
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Yes I agree that shield factor does nothing.

They should have it add to the mitigation value.   Though they might have to lower it some.

They should also make the shield factor value go off of type (tower, kite, etc.) and tier.  Something similar to this might work.

Tower shield factor = 75/Tier

Kite shield factor = 55/Tier

Round shield factor = 40/Tier

Buckler shield factor = 20/Tier

 

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Old 09-25-2005, 10:04 PM   #3
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I have a funny feeling that the avoidance shields grant is now hard-coded by type.  (i.e. Towers and Kites give X%, Rounds give Y%, etc.)  The tier and shield factor may be completely ignored now. 
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:28 AM   #4
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Corvan wrote:I have a funny feeling that the avoidance shields grant is now hard-coded by type.  (i.e. Towers and Kites give X%, Rounds give Y%, etc.)  The tier and shield factor may be completely ignored now. 

I've confirmed this.  These two shields give idendical avoidance:
Presumably, any tier1 non-treasured Kite or Tower shield would offer the exact same avoidance bonus that a T6 fabled shield, if they didn't grey out.   There is absolutely no difference between a treasured and fabled shield other than the stats.  So if you have a nice T5 fabled shield with, say 20% haste on it, don't bother upgrading to a T6 fabled until it greys out and you're forced to.  Similarily, don't pay through the nose for a T6 fabled shield.  Any T6 piece of junk will give you the same avoidance so you can get by until a *nice* fabled comes along.  (if any exist)  Thanks SOE.  This is the lamest thing I've seen in an RPG in a long time.
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:38 AM   #5
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Yupp, seems very reasonable that the shield adds to the mitigation.
That would give the warriors a small edge being able to use the tower shield.
And it would make me dual wield a lot less.

Got my eyes on the Shiny Brass Shield right now, just got to do Trial 6 first. SMILEY
No hurry, cant use it for another 2 lvls anyway.

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Message Edited by MrMartin on 09-26-2005 10:39 PM

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Old 09-27-2005, 10:04 AM   #6
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I agree adding mitigation to shields will help the low to mid geared tank. But it will be worthless on a highend tank because you will go over the 80% cap in a raid thus the midigation on the shield will be useless to you. To ballance the low to highend tank, the shield facter should add to our blocking and a tower should have a lot more then a kite, else the tower shield will be useless and the devs might as well take it out of the game.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:18 AM   #7
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I think that shield type should influence avoidance, regradless of tier.   Shield factor should apply to mobs in fromt, right or left of you and affect mitigation.  Something from behind should have no shield effects applied.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:57 AM   #8
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There needs to be a difference between a T6 fabled tower shield and a T1 treasured kite shield other than str, sta, HP, etc..  That much is obvious.  Hopefully this will be fixed soon. 
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:18 PM   #9
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I think the underlying problem here is being completely missed a shield should be a fighters best way of avoiding being hit and means nothing. While adding mitigation to shields would be a much needed boost and would once again make shields actually worth equipping that doesn't solve the problem. Shields are meant to block attacks not make you take less dmg from being hit. Perhaps sony needs to go do some real life tests and have someone attack them with a sword. They can do one test with a tiny lil round shield one with a Tower shield and see if they notice a difference. Make sure to wear full vanguard armor in the test. I am sure the tower shield will make them avoid more then 5% more hits then a round shield and a hell of alot more then 10% more then having no shield period.
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:43 PM   #10
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I've read all of your posts.. Good job gathering info, everyone. All i have to say is, I'm really dissapointed in SOE. Ive been playing everquest in many years now, and one mistake just keep getting replaced by the next. It is all across the boards, if you take a look.. I love the game though. Dkken 42 Paladin AB
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:15 PM   #11
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I can try to parse later (monk) but atm im 56 almost 57 so fighting a 55 might scew it Your level will make a huge difference cause avoidance on blues goes WAY up compared to whites and yellows. I have a weapon with + 8 parry and 20 agi , should be comparable to your shield. My only thought is u will need higher level shields to block ANY atk from lvl 60+ named.  As is you cant hit a lvl 62 named with t5 fabled, but if u use a lvl 57 treasured weapon you can.  Youll get a msg saying try to use a weapon with a higher level if you wish to hit the mob.  As for monks/bruisers inate shields, i beleive its like 3%, so its not like we are runing around with invisable tower shields

Message Edited by Dfoley323 on 09-30-2005 04:20 AM

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Old 09-30-2005, 03:35 PM   #12
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The proposed diff in kites and towers is too big.

Palys can tank approximately the same as a guard right now. Make the tower shield that much better than a kite and you start sliding back to the overpowered guard days.

Why cant guardians understand that Palys are in the EXACT same situation? Palys and Guards are supposed to SHARE the heavy tank tier.

Hell, why dont the devs just improve tower shields and let Palys and Guards use them and give kites to SK's and Bers. They are offensive tanks right? Face it, Palys are now heavy tanks with craptastic DPS. Learn to live with it and lets work together to improve the HEAVY tank community, not try to nerf them.

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Old 10-06-2005, 03:04 AM   #13
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And just why exactly are Pally's supposed to share the "heavy" tanking with guardians, you are making no sense? Pally's as well as SK's buff there own wisdom instead of parry, therefor making them a better tank against magical attacks. Yes some mobs do mele magical types of damage instead of physical (for example, faroth mal, and some mobs in living tombs) I feel that sony has it nicely balanced tho of course being a crusader you're usually stuck putting gift of armament on a guardian when doin a raid mob or something of the sort ( since most raid mobs do high physical damage ). I enjoy the fact that my kite shield has the same shield factor as tower shields, but what is shield factor besides a display number? currently it seems like its nothing, i dunno id have to parse several equivilent yet very long battles to find out. I have Zalak's Kite shield of Dominion (720 factor) I also have Crimson Rock Targe (928 factor) Yet both give 16% block ( this either could be a display issue, or a actual bug with avoidance ) Either way it is definatly a bug! and i hope its fixed soon!

I'm doing some parses right now, and am going to figure out if its just a display issue or not, and yea i dont trust the original guys parses SMILEY

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Old 10-06-2005, 06:14 AM   #14
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Seeing as Aviodance is already built into the sheild equasion ...
 
why not give 50% of Sheild factor in Mitigation?? it scales nicely but does not overpower..
 
Example: T5 Cedar Kite sheild has 720SF ---> = +360 mitigation
                T5 Cedar Tower sheild has 800SF-> = +400 Mitigation
 
Not overpowered just a small edge to the Tower sheild. Would not be so much to hit the Mit Cap but would definatly help in Tanking. would also help preists and other classes to wear sheild other than just +wis.
 
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:13 AM   #15
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Displayed Avoidance and Block % changed when changing Interdimensional Guard (Factor 720), and Pristine Cedar Tower (Factor 630) Difference (stats vary for you, just a comparison): IG: Avoidance 46.7%, Block 16% PICTS or SBS: Avoidance 45.4%, Block 14% Which means (for me): 45 shield factor -> 1% Block Rate -> 0.65% Avoidance Changing between Shiny Brass Shield (Kite 630) and Cedar Tower didn't change the displayed values (as it should be when kite and tower have same base block rate)
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:22 AM   #16
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I have no idea what shield factor does I seem to take the same damage if I use the one with 700 as I do with the one with 840, if I cared I would ask someone lol but I have till the 13th so it will be one more broken thing from a game full of them, when I leave it behind. 
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:49 AM   #17
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its the DEVS intent to have guards and palys share the heavy tank roles..it wasnt mine. You should check out the tank tiers before u make statements like that. Thats ignorant ,and thats exaclty the mentality that got you guys nerfed in the same place. Why should I cast my AC gift on a guard when he can share his def buffs and allow me to be MT?

You are not the preferred MT anymore. You are better against some mobs and we are better against some mobs.

Palys should and  now tank the SAME things that Guards can..as it should be. Its over and done with..its reality now, even though it seems a bit skewed towards eva tanks.

The days of Guardians being the Uber tank is over. its not gonna happen again. Hell, right now I can out tank ANY guardian vs a caster mobs. My resists are much better than yours, just like your physical damage resists are better than mine.

You should argue about utility, or DPS..but arguing that you should bcome the top tier tank again is gonna get all the tank classes against you...like it did and the resulting nerf.

Man..I've stood up for you guys since the revamp and what do I get? I get "Your a crusader, so you should be a secondary tank to a guardian."

nice

I see the guardian arrogance is still strong in some people.

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:09 AM   #18
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this really wasn't a thread started about being MT, its the facts the t5 fabled and t6 fabled shields add the same amount of avoidance...

kite = tower for avoid...  but t6 > t5 for avoidance

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