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Old 12-19-2006, 06:14 AM   #1
Repxsrz

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OK, a few questions for all of you raiding zerkers out there. I am not a zerker but I do run raids for my guild and I'm wondering how well you are all doing as a MT? We have tried with our zerkers and the spike damage on pull and the lack of a guards superior tanking buffs seem to be getting ours owned at a rediculous rate, as in dead before even in position after pull. They also seem to be having a REALLY hard time keeping aggro. Thier DPS is good, they have a hate dump, Dirge, etc etc, all of the MTing essentials and seems like nothing is working.
 
Did EoF really mess up zerkers this bad? If not, what advice can I give my Zerkers before they throw up their hands in disgust and betray? I have always loved what a zerker brought to a raid, but now it seems to be falling a bit short. We never had trouble having a Zerk MT pre-EoF and now we do, I just can't figure out why.
 
Any help is greatly appreciated!
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:07 AM   #2
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hmm, as far as spike damage, this has to do with mitigation, and there is no difference in mitigation between a zerk and a guard.  All buffs and equipment are the same in mit.  One thing that can help tremendously with the incoming damage, is making sure all classes that can debuff the mob, do this ASAP.  The MT should be casting the temporary defensive buffs just prior to pull.  Once the temporary debuffs wear off, all the debuffs have to be on the mob, and preferably staying there.

Hate is more of an issue now, and the only way to help is making sure you have master spells of course, and our EoF AA's you can pick up 10% less resists on taunts.  There is another ability in the EoF AA's that buffs one of our attacks that has hate attached to it.  There is also a cloak that drops off an x2 mob in mm castle that has a proc (twice per minute) that does 750 hate TO THE GROUP!  The  zerker has to relie more on damage for hate, in comparison to the guard.  Since melee skills are more important now, and the zerker can not buff this himself (unless in offensive stance, unlike a guard), then the zerker will be missing more attacks, and therefore less dps, and therefore less hate.  I typically have a paladin with the battle leadership AA skill of thiers, to up my melee skills, along with a dirge.

Using the buckler with the stamina AA line helps alot with holding aggro, although there will be less avoidance.  You may get hit a little more often, alteast until the mob is debuffed real good.  I usually have the tower equipped until debuffs are in, then switch to buckler to hold aggro and dps.

 

I don't think betraying will help this problem too much, but this is just my opinion.  The guard has better aggro holding utilities on single target and more avoidance because of defensive buffs, but avoidance gets scaled down against higher level, and epic mobs, so this won't help much, even more so with spike damage.  As far as holding aggro, single target or not, with a couple buffs to our melee skills and atleast one person giving hate, and adept3's, shouldn't be a problem for a zerk or a guard (or anyone really).

Message Edited by FightGame on 12-18-2006 06:10 PM

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Old 12-19-2006, 10:30 AM   #3
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Hey Repxsr. As a fellow Unrest citizen and one of the only berserker raid MT's beside Heckler that does pretty much 100% of the raid tanking I"ll try and answer this as best as possible.

Pre-EoF as you know it didn't really matter if you had a guardian or a berserker as the MT we could both do anything.  Post EoF I find myself still being able to do anything it just matters on group set up and doing a few tricks here and there.  The only spike damage that I have really noticed that I have had to deal with is from the x3 worms in DT and the Amorphous Drake in DT.  Basically we have been handling 2 different ways.  First way pre-wards from the Defiler and using a necro or conjurer pet to to pull, works with the worms not the Amorphous Drake, to eat up the initial damage.  The other thing has been to stick our guardian who is usually the MA in the MT group and move out the dirge or assassin who is in the mT group.  THe Guardian uses his ability to split damage between myself and him, not intercede some guardian special ability forget the name, and that works out real well.

I would say post EoF guardians have an eaiser time anking than Berserkers but Berserkers can be just as good as they were.  I don't know your 2 raid tnak berserkers SKummy and Drathstar personally but I do know your guild's solid reputation so don't take this the wrong way, good Berserker MT'ing takes more skill these days you definetly need to have a gameplan going into each pull.  It took me a few raids to get use to the changes.  Also what AA are they spec'd to now?

As far as holding agro personally I haven't had any problem but here are a few suggestions.  I know it's luck of the draw but definetly if they can get Ascendant from DT grab for me it's been procing a whole lot post EoF.  I"m spec'd str 4-4-8-8 wis 4-4-8-8 so I don't use the buckler but yeah we use more DPS to hold agro as well.  What we have been doing is giving me 5-10 secs after I pull to get agro established before the rest of the raid attacks.  Gives me enough time to cycle thru my taunts and get in a couple of shots?

Also if they want to talk shop at all anytime just have em send me a tell and we can dish out.  Finally what set up are you using in the MT group right now?

Only other suggestion I can think of is something I started using cause I had some in my inventory 1 day and found out they actually work is the grandmaster thorn elixer potions forgot the name but they give you a spike coat that does liek 37 or 56 damage doesn't seem like much but they last for like 2 mintues and helpw ith named fights for agro somewhat.  Anyway that is all I can think of right now.  If I come up with anything else I'll give you a tell ingame.

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Old 12-19-2006, 05:12 PM   #4
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The last mob in Lyceum, during his second to last stance, is the only time where I would say a guardian is the always best choice for a tank. Other then that, I have yet to encounter a situation where a Berzerker can't tank adequately. There are a couple instances in EoF as well where the Zerker is probably a better choice due to our ability to lock a group encounter onto us faster then a guardian.
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:28 PM   #5
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We use a guard 100% of the time now. Our MT group setup as completely changed since EoF, as we now run a swashy in the MT grp for hate transfer which works amazingly well. However thats another topic SMILEY
 
I would say zerkers can MT well, but Guardians now have the better end of the stick by a small margin (which is how it should always of been). Generally if your using a zerker as a MT, they need to be opening up with the 3 temporary defence buffs, followed by our reactive taunt Insolent Gibe, followed by single / group taunts, then bursting out AoE's. This should stick the mobs onto your zerkers easy enough. After this its upto them how they go about tanking.
 
One thing i will recommend greatly is getting your MT in with some +parry and +defence gear, theres plenty about since EoF and it has a huge impact on post-EoF raiding. Get them to constantly keep the temporary buffs cycling over, this will help. If your MT is going to be a zerker, then he needs to speak defensively and take the AA lines to reduce his recast times on his temp buffs.
 
As far as stats go, i have slightly less Mit than our MT guard, however he takes me on HP by about 400.
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:43 AM   #6
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Fazzarya wrote:
The last mob in Lyceum, during his second to last stance, is the only time where I would say a guardian is the always best choice for a tank.

 

Sorry, a little off topic...but the second to last stance - is his weakest stance, so I don't see how a guard would be better.  This third stance, IF and when he is in the stance during this time, his health regen goes up (no change to tanking ability), and has a 25% chance to reposte.  Considering that during his other stances, he has increased chances to crit, 25% chance to double attack, frontal barrage, and during last stance repostes 50%...the third stance is surely the weakest.  The last stance is always the hardest since he repostes 50%, removes all debuffs on him, and sometimes gets bugged where he is in ALL 4 stances at the same time.

 

For the first couple weeks after EoF release, I was seriously considering starting, or betraying to guard, because of all the failures we were having.  Since soe has "tweaked" most of the broken raid mobs, and we are once again killing the stuff we were killing before (and then some), I'm happy with the zerker.  I'm NOT happy with the mitigation curve, which is affecting all plate classes.

I believe guards still have the same very small edge in tanking ability they always have.  We have the same mitigation.  They have slightly more avoidance when set up in the same group because of their buffs.  But avoidance gets scaled down against high level and epic mobs, so it is only a very small advantage, that can easily be made up with a different group set-up.  They have a few hundred more total hp, and we have the 150+hp/tick regen.  They have the better aggro ability on single target, and we have better on multiple targets (when we can cast gibe and freely aoe), and we have a little more dps to help aggro.

I really don't think the difference between the classes has changed, comparing before and after EoF release.  At first I did, but not any more.  I think their advantage in avoidance probably helps in heroic encounters, but for the most part, anyone can tank a heroic encounter successfully now.

I think sony has made a few encounters, where it would be much better to have a certain class tank, and on these few encounters, the differences between the classes will really shine.

Message Edited by FightGame on 12-19-2006 03:47 PM

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Old 12-20-2006, 09:46 AM   #7
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I know our main zerker was beside himself post EoF as well, and was having all kinds of aggro issues (where he had none before). He had respec'd a few times and decided to give it another shot though. He respec'd to up his dammage and hate last week...and the result is phenomenal. The defensive adorns help a lot and he uses his tower now as well. One of your Zerks was ooc'ing in the 60s channel a few times earlier tonight to make " a whole buncha zerk adept IIIs"...so spell/buff quality might be part of it for the moment also (if they were for himself). I find our Zerk is holding up very well now though, and his aggro is right back up where it was. You can ask him what he respec'd to exactly if you would like, send me a tell and I'll put you in touch with him. Aside from the group make-up (which I'm sure you have down)...can't think of anything else at the sec. Honestly though....it really did seem to turn around completely after he respec'd.
 
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:39 PM   #8
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Well all i can say the gap has widened between the guardian and the berserker.  The Guardian got more usefull aa's then zerks in the offensive and defensive compartment.  A lot of zerkers have betrayed to guardians and the ones that didn't like me, didn't because they are fully mastered and can't just throw away over 500P worth of masters, if not more...
 
I still MT raids but i rely a lot on other classes.  In defensive stance i need a warden/dirge/templar to be able to hit something.  The extra damage blocking/smoothing tools a guardian have make a bigger difference now then in kos.  In Kos i'd say yes, you can use a zerker as well, in eof if you're serious i'd say get your guardian to MT if he has the experience and the resistgear.  He just has the better tools to do the job if he has the experience ...
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:21 PM   #9
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Yep, they summed it all up...Zerkers and Guards are still practically the same except Guards have a small edge on zerkers in tanking now.
 
I just tanked Lyceum(for the first time) last night and it went almost perfectly([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you Gnorbl), I did'nt try to tank Vulicide though, our MT(Guardian) got on right as we got to him. They did'nt want to risk a wipe over trying me out on Vulicide
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Old 12-20-2006, 11:32 PM   #10
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Maintaining agro as a raid MT zerker is all about using your class defining abilities effectively. I cycle through a couple of buffs and specials on every fight. First grouped encounter I hit Destruction, Mayhem, and controlled Rage, and pull, hit Berate and I have agro locked. Next fight, since those CA's and buffs are refreshing I hit Wall of Ferocity and pull hit Berate and open wounds as the mobs come in...agro is locked. Next pull I go back to the first set I mentioned...I always have gibe available for an even stronger Agro lock, or if there is a bad pull and I get an add. Debuffing is key of course, Dirge in the group is key for Cacophony of blades, hate up song, skills increase song, Defense song...ect Warden in group is key for their buff that adds to skills as well. I usually run around 433 slashing skill in raid and have no issues with hitting the mobs in D stance. Other things that are important if you are asking my opinion would be the MT group knowing each others tendencies, so important to trust your healers, and your healers knowing you, how your gonna take spikes, how your gonna take overall damage on pulls ect...**edited to add** on singles I often use Destruction to hold agro, it pumps the dps up about 200 or so on single target encounters, and on all pulls cycling Weapons Aegis, and making sure Taunting Def is mastered or at least Adept 3 is definately a plus...

Sure having a swash in group to do agro transfer is great, but I rarely sacrfice my Paly in MT group for a rogue, I just find his additional ward, extra mit, and heals to be more important, not to mention leadership AA...about the only class I will sub in over the Paly is an enchanter on long fights where we need the extra power regen, and that haste is oh so great.

Have I lost agro in raids? Sure...Warlocks (Jigsore)  have a great way of taking mobs off just about any tank, but thats why we put a paly in the caster group for amends. Another Berserker (Kemt) can take agro off me on mobs I don't have targeted, if he wants, anytime he wants, but hey, its Kemt...((Also known as Dimglow on the forums)) and he is the definitive knowlege keeper of all Zerkers so I just laugh with him in tells..hell the other night we were swapping agro on pulls and both of us were tanking Labs in O stance...those poor mobs never stood a chance...

The most important thing is that your having fun, Raiding doesn't have to be a grind, and there is no formula on how every fight has to go...play with the encounters, find what works for ya, and make it fun.

Every time I hear some Zerker saying how Guardians are better Raid tanks, it makes me cringe, have some pride in your class...I will put Syrius up against any Guardian on Venekor for MTing...I see them as Equal traveling similar but different roads to produce the same result...not one is better then the other, they just taste different, but both fill you up just fine...

 

Thats my 2cp

 

Message Edited by Conjourer on 12-20-2006 10:34 AM

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Old 12-20-2006, 11:57 PM   #11
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Hey, this has some great raiding tips. Im feeling a sticky
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Old 12-21-2006, 06:09 AM   #12
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Hey now ,  I'm Main Tank of Random Evac on the Unrest server and I'm a zerker (Sulfadias)
 
 
Since respeccing to the int and agi lines and maxing out defense and parry and using a tower shield, I feel I tank just fine.
 
Its all about having the best possible gear you can get, all master 1 spells, group configuration, and knowing when to use what mit/defense buffs at what times. 
 
Generally you'll want to pull with atleast 2/3 of your defensive buffs to help mitigate the initial pre-debuffed spike damage.   Once the mob is debuffed and my first 2 defensive buffs are fading, I'll use my third buff.      As that one is fading my 1st 2 buffs are back up just in time for all the debuffs fading!  Then I'll pop those 2 off again and just prevent spike damage as much as possible.
 
With defense/parry from the agi/int lines my avoidance is huge.  Using a tower shield also adds some nice avoidance.   Block/Parry adornments and having a dirge in group is huge for the parry buff.
 
 
I do however wish that EoF had given zerkers SOME defensive AA's to spec towards.     Where we got dps AA's almost exclusively,  Guardians got  both DPS and tanking AA's thus improving them while doing very little for zerks.
 
 
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