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Old 08-04-2011, 09:42 AM   #91
Xalmat

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Dreft wrote:

Just give the pet +30 % potency ... same thing Sony did for Warlocks with the mythical.  Wizards got SDA, Warlocks got +30% potency.  Ok sure you lost a theoretical double damage spell 1 in 8 casts.  You gain ( your pet gains ) +30% damage to all attacks.  Granted Sony is going to say thats way too much, but its what they did for wizards and warlocks.

The Summoner pets are already 17% better thanks to the Epic Repercussions buff. It isn't insignificant.

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Old 08-04-2011, 01:47 PM   #92
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Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?

It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.

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Old 08-04-2011, 04:31 PM   #93
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?

It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.

Warriors were also pidgeonholed into using Bucklers, and nothing else. They couldn't even dual wield with that AA line.

Being able to use a Tower Shield and having the Multi-Attack affect their offhand far outweighed the negatives. And besides if a Warrior could get their Multi-Attack high enough, the line became useless anyway.

The same cannot be said for Summoners.

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Old 08-04-2011, 04:33 PM   #94
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Xalmat wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?

It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.

Warriors were also pidgeonholed into using Bucklers, and nothing else. They couldn't even dual wield with that AA line.

Being able to use a Tower Shield and having the Multi-Attack affect their offhand far outweighed the negatives. And besides if a Warrior could get their Multi-Attack high enough, the line became useless anyway.

The same cannot be said for Summoners.

Thats what the guardian's mythical did.

and the Uncontested Avoidance was amazing, IMO SMILEY

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Old 08-04-2011, 06:15 PM   #95
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We need to make more noise about our pets power replenish AA...

GIVE US BACK OUR PETS POWER REPLENISH! At least....Dont hit us with the SUPER NERF STICK!

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Old 08-05-2011, 01:28 AM   #96
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Reading xelgad's post, I get the distinct feeling he is still oblivious to how the ai is broken for the melee pets.  Having a goal to balance aa around all 4 pets when only 1 of them is useful in all group/raid content strikes me as being out of touch with the state of the game for summoners.It has been posted, reported and noted 100's of times before, yet still somehow oblivious.For years now, the melee pets very rarely ever use their abilities, their ai has a major error in it.  This is as simple as I can put it, they wait to use combat art's until they are ready to auto attack, which is the only time they shouldn't use a combat art as it delays the auto attack.  The rest of the time they stand there and do nothing, time they should be using to do combat arts.

We are not talking about the scout needs to do 15% more dps to be competitive, we are talking about the scout pet needs to do 400% more dps to be competitive.  Ie, broken in a literal sense not a hyperbolic one.

Everytime you talk about buffing the scout pet without fixing the ai, it strikes me as sensible as giving a new paint job to the broken down rust job abandoned in the junk yard.  I just stand there with my jaw agap wondering what the point is.  After all these years, how have we failed to succesfully commmunicate to you just how badly broken the scout(and tank pet) is.

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Old 08-05-2011, 09:55 PM   #97
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Xalmat wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?

It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.

Warriors were also pidgeonholed into using Bucklers, and nothing else. They couldn't even dual wield with that AA line.

Being able to use a Tower Shield and having the Multi-Attack affect their offhand far outweighed the negatives. And besides if a Warrior could get their Multi-Attack high enough, the line became useless anyway.

The same cannot be said for Summoners.

Thats what the guardian's mythical did.

and the Uncontested Avoidance was amazing, IMO

This thread isn't about warriors.  This is completely off-topic and disruptive.  You do nothing but troll the forums looking for threads the devs post in (that you assume they are monitoring) to vomit warrior QQ all over them.

Stop it.

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Old 08-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #98
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Losing Empower Servant is not good.

On live with pet only attacking an epic training dummy - Pet killed the dummy never got below 95% power

On test with pet only attacking an epic training dummy speced with the 10% group power reduction - Pet ran out of power with the dummy having 68% health.

That is a huge difference, going to make any raid mob that has a power drain terrible.

Having no power regen in a group or raid, I see alot of killing the pet and recasting it.

Stuff like this takes away the fun factor.

I would rather keep the current aa tree, change Magic Leash to the hate postion drop proc that is currently on test and call it a day. Losing the SMA is terrible too btw.

Would like to see bubble be more useful, you ever watch a summoner pet on the Tert fight?So easy to lose a pet cause of the pathing, the pet doesn't need to move in order to cast on Tert but it does. This is just a perfect example of how no human on this earth currently knows how to make pet pathing work correctly lol, it's not just EQ2 it is all games. Having aoe prevention on the primary pets would make this less annoying.

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Old 08-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #99
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Just adding my 2 cents worth--first about summoner (spec Conj) then about Nerfs in general.

Removing Spell DA is an awfully big hit esp for 90/300 Conj. If you happen to get lucky and do a spell DA in combo with Elemental blast losing that will cost thousands of damage point potential. So you get a single digit potency to "make up" for that? Stinks to put it mildly.

Ok Now for the idea of nerfing classes to get "balance" in the game. I've been playing EQ2 since day 4 of it's launch and regardless of what class get nerfed I've seen as totally unfair. Why if a class is getting a bonus on something (caused by SoE programmers btw--not the players) do you always go with a negative approach? Instead of yanking a nice spell away from a class to make it all "fair" why not give some nice spells to the other classes to create balance?

Case it point from way back in the day--Pallys and SK's were the only toons with horses. Naturally anyone who didn't roll those classes whined.. SoE's "fix" dropped pally/sk mounts to 10% instead of making it easier for other classes to obtain a mount. I know thats a long time ago but it does show the pattern SoE has taken basically from day 1.

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Old 08-06-2011, 07:17 PM   #100
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Xelgad wrote:

We decided to scrap the pet Spell Multi-Attack (Doublecast) for several reasons.  First, we wanted to move away from pet-specific AAs. As some of you know, scout pets did technically get some benefit from SDA because their attacks are classified as spells, but fighter pets did not really benefit at all. Additionally, in terms of AA versus AA balance (within the Summoner tree), Focused Minion was obviously much too powerful. At least to some degree, that was the result of the improvements to SDA in GU60. Back in Sentinel's Fate Beta, we balanced the amount of SDA for this AA taking into account that pets used some DoTs that would not get full benefit. Lastly, we don't think Summoners are in need of any boosts in power on Live currently, but we have been looking forward to revamping the Summoner AA tree for years. Our goal is to revamp the tree without giving a signficiant net gain (or loss) in power to the class.
 
Literally every AA in the tree is subject to change based on your feedback, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it set up so that you guys are reasonably happy with it even without the old Focused Minion.

Parsed some herioc TD's on Live and Test. These are pet only parses, couldn't use Epic because the pet currently on test cannot kill one without running out of power.

The AA Spec on Test is using Max casting speed in INT, with Teamwork spec. (which I think most will not use, most will spec for 10% more pet health.)

This is a ZW from killing 5 Herioc TD's.

TEST:      All: (02:50) | 4594170 | 27025 | [Conjpet-Fury of the Elements-78777]Conjpet | 4594170 | 27025

LIVE:      All: (02:34) | 4655875 | 30233 | [Conjpet-Fury of the Elements-74249]Conjpet | 4655875 | 30233

Don't like the word signficiant, but if 3k less isn't considered signficiant then I would like a increase by 3k more than live.

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Old 08-07-2011, 06:46 AM   #101
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I copied my character over to test and did some testing, too.

Spec in the summoner tree was the first 3 abilities from each tree (except wis) and teamwork. Also Aptitude of the theurgist and cabalist's aura

Results after 5 heroic dummies on test:

DPS: 26160

On live the pet was at an average of 28864.

On live my pet never dropped below 100% power. On test - even with 10 points in Cabalistic conservation - the pet was below 30% power after the 5 dummies. I don't see how this will help with raids where every mob and his dog has a mana drain.

Also on test I wasnt able to cast Unabate after respeccing the summoner tree. The other buffs are fine, it's just Unabate that cant be activated again.

Next thing: Teamwork is supposed to  increase potency by 5%. Upon inspecting my pet's buffs the "Fire from within" buff said 3% instead. Fully speccing Cabalist's aura raised that value to 5.4%. Yay....

And why in the world did we get yet another skill to reanimate our pet? Why don't you guys just increase the survivability of the pets instead of giving us several spells to call another pet?

Needless to say I'm not happy.

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Old 08-07-2011, 09:28 PM   #102
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unabated is passive on test.

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Old 08-08-2011, 04:41 AM   #103
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what I found

for skills increase (skill are shared with pet, right?) and resist rate

Theurgistic Prowes - skills for caster

Minion's Uproar - skills for pet

Magician's Aptitude - resist rate

Summons Spells - mage pet: resist rate / scout pet: resist rate & skills

Unabate - resist rate for caster & pet

Why too much, there are no problems with resisting, some looks like they are only for filling free space and are useless, wtb anything inovating...

AAs for Shards - useless as they are now

Bubble - with pathing and even in combat with nice LoS pet running like mad, behind corners and so, wtb rework

Spell double attack and Power replenish from AA is a big impact to summoner class.

Offensive Stance - useless for mage pet, scout pet has no use, so wtb change for this spell finaly

Communion - still cancels Fire from Within buff

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Old 08-08-2011, 06:04 AM   #104
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Do our pets get spell autoattack too? Does anyone know?

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Old 08-08-2011, 03:54 PM   #105
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I doubt our pets will spell autoattack,  which is fine.  We're getting as much spell autoattack on our player character as most anyone since spells don't have to be timed with it.   Giving it to the pet as well would in fact be double benefit and would probably really annoy some sorcerers.

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Old 08-08-2011, 04:23 PM   #106
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theleetch wrote:

Do our pets get spell autoattack too? Does anyone know?

[email protected] wrote:

I doubt our pets will spell autoattack,  which is fine.  We're getting as much spell autoattack on our player character as most anyone since spells don't have to be timed with it.   Giving it to the pet as well would in fact be double benefit and would probably really annoy some sorcerers.

What Arieva said. They don't exactly need it either.

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Old 08-08-2011, 07:53 PM   #107
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On the subject of spell auto attack, here is a novel idea:

Have spell auto attack mods we acquire affect the tank and scout pet's MELEE auto attack by an equal amount. we have precious few ways of boosting those pets auto attack directly (only indirect boosts via crit chance, crit bonus, and our INT).

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Old 08-09-2011, 05:20 PM   #108
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I'm still patiently waiting for these feedback driven AA tweaks..... *checks the test notes* Not today! If they ninja change anything on test someone shout out, I don't normally login to test unless the notes say there is something to see
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:38 PM   #109
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I don't tend to post here, well ever, but thought it was necessary to do so on this. They need to leave the spell double attack and empowered servant AA's alone. I may not like some of the other stuff they are doing but can live with it, but these two things are just horrible. I think everyone has pretty much mentioned the downsides so I'm not going to repeat them, just throwing in my vote for the Dev's to not break my class.

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Old 08-09-2011, 08:52 PM   #110
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The huge hp nerf to tank pet w/aa's is really going to hurt, too, and the pet power issues are unfortunate.  I'm more concerned about those than the double attack at the moment.

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Old 08-09-2011, 09:49 PM   #111
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Normally being something of a forum recluse i was not going to post but... honestly, the two key issues here (ones that that i feel effect myself quite badly being a devoted summoner player since launch) is that everyone mentioned is the SDA and the mana heal for pet. The first loss would reduce our DPS rating quite sizably as far as i have seen (unless you plan to add it to our class sets for pet shared stats?) and the second seems kind of harsh, it doesn't affect balance so much as prevents us from having to resummon pets half way through a fight.

The presented point given to scrap these seems weak, if there is a wish to move away from pet specialized aa's...then why are beastlords getting a whole tree devoted to pet aa's? ((so sayeth the announcement at fan faire.)) i do so hope this is not some poorly veiled attempt to make the new pet class be more appealing and to get a quick sell, It's bad when it becomes so transparent eh?

Solutions? possibly lower the SDA some and put it in our underated offensive stance.. or what some others suggested. And for the later? figure some way to alternatively restore our pets power (like a pet targeted mana transferance or something..anything...preferably keep that aa)

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Old 08-10-2011, 01:25 AM   #112
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Xalmat wrote:

theleetch wrote:

Do our pets get spell autoattack too? Does anyone know?

[email protected] wrote:

I doubt our pets will spell autoattack,  which is fine.  We're getting as much spell autoattack on our player character as most anyone since spells don't have to be timed with it.   Giving it to the pet as well would in fact be double benefit and would probably really annoy some sorcerers.

What Arieva said. They don't exactly need it either.

I don't care if the pet spell Auto only does 1 damage per swing.  It would at least keep them at max range and stop them from coming in and taking melee swings (and in some instances getting riposte and dying instantly).

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Old 08-10-2011, 02:57 AM   #113
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Xalmat wrote:

theleetch wrote:

Do our pets get spell autoattack too? Does anyone know?

[email protected] wrote:

I doubt our pets will spell autoattack,  which is fine.  We're getting as much spell autoattack on our player character as most anyone since spells don't have to be timed with it.   Giving it to the pet as well would in fact be double benefit and would probably really annoy some sorcerers.

What Arieva said. They don't exactly need it either.

I don't care if the pet spell Auto only does 1 damage per swing.  It would at least keep them at max range and stop them from coming in and taking melee swings (and in some instances getting riposte and dying instantly).

Oh man, good point, sad but true.

Actually I take that back!  No way!  Not a valid point!  You are makign a huge assumption here:

--that the pet can even get to the mob in the first place, and doesn't simply stand out of line of site frozen, or give a "you cannot order your pet to attack that target" message! SMILEY

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Old 08-10-2011, 03:06 AM   #114
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youre also assuming the pet would stay at range if it had spell auto attack. my money is on it trying to get in melee range anyway.

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Old 08-10-2011, 04:39 AM   #115
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Then, unless Conjies religiously use Fire Seed on their pets they can just take away the mage pet's melee auto attack.  I'd be fine with that as well.

If they have an issue with it, then just let them keep theirs and remove it from Grim Sorc.  They can have fun resummoning their pet when it decides to faceroll itself, which it not fun when the raid mob is turning and you have to joust and/or casting interrupts that can land at almost the end of your cast.

I think the Devs are being really disingenuous.  They don't seem to play the game, so they have no clue how much we go through to keep pets alive even for the class that has a decent AOE prevent.  AoE Auto Attacks, Ripostes, Adds that gib them, etc.  We have to deal with all that.  Getting a few extra DPS to make up for the management doesn't seem too extreme or unreasonable IMO.

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:32 PM   #116
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Tren I could not agree more.

I've played my necro since I started the game last year. Raided on it a lot and recently switched to it to raid on it full time and I bet I resummon my pet a dozen times a night, I feel for conjies that dont even have the AoE prevent, I personally feel that it is rediclious that they don't have the AoE prevent.  Raiding with a pet is almost punishment, its a pita in every respect.  This GU honestly makes me sick. I'm dreading the heck out of it and to be honest if they screw over my necro I'll just mothball the blasted thing and call it quits on it. Only until recently have I ever felt like I could dps the way a T1 dps should and now they go and screw it up.

If your going to fix something do it in a quality way and its pretty obvious what you have done is not quality.  Your taking a lot more than your replacing and its just down right bs, and I actaully pay you guys to let you do these kinda things. Guess that makes me the stupid one.

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Old 08-10-2011, 03:04 PM   #117
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1.  It just seems like there are so many creative things they could do.  SDA is a fun mechanic.  Conjy's will still be able to time EB with timewarp so that'll double attack.  Soulburn doesn't double anyway...If the % was too high, fine.  Take and put it on the offensive stance.  That'll nerf pet hp which makes soulburn hit for less, too, so there's a small trade-off.  Lower the % to 8 or something if 10 (12.5) is too much, fine.  Would at least make offensive stance worth using, too--we have two stances, one shouldn't be useless.  It's amusing at the moment how we all have two stances we use.  High level defensive stance, and lvl14 GM defensive stance is our "offensive" stance, lol.  I could see the desire for a nerf to the overpowered summoner dps (lol) if we were beating out warlock/wizard/assasin/etc all the time, but at least where I'm at doing easy mode raid content, we aren't unless we're outplaying or outgearing them.

2.  As for pet aggro being too much with mage pet, either put a aggro reduction on offensive stance, or (much) better yet, have the mage and scout pets share our de-aggro stat!  Instead of giving us a new AA, have the AA in shadow tree that we *already have* effect the pet as well (unless pet is fighter).

3.  As for fighter pet not having enough aggro--FIX THE BUG WITH IT NOT USING ITS ABILITIES!  That's what it needs--not some cheesy new AA when we already have a bunch of aggro AAs!  Course the one in the heroic tree for fighter pet doesn't particularly help, because the fighter pet DOESN'T USE ITS ABILITIES.  If it, you know, wasn't bugged, that AA would probably be all that is needed, not a new one that's a bandaid because the AI is bugged.  That's just sheer laziness.

4.  Scout pet--fix the bug with it not using its abilities!

5.  The pet power AA going away is an annoyance, yay, we'll hafta stop and re-summon.  Thanks.

6.  Swarm pets.  Either do something with them or just remove them.  Even at lower levels they end up insta-gibbed.  I'm not sure ther damage would be worth using though even if they had complete AA immunity, honestly.  It is a neat concept and one that I'd like to see worth using.  It would be nice if they did decent damage, procced ET, and had AOE immunity.  If AOE immunity isn't coming, meh.  We'll still want the swarm pet around on bar with the dagger change though so bewilderment can work while soloing.

7.  Pet HP.  It needs to scale.  No one is asking for a 60k hp fighter pet for soloing.  But if we have 40k hp, the fighter pet shouldn't have less hp than us.  The mage pet shouldn't have half our life.  Make it at least scale a *little* bit!

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Old 08-10-2011, 09:49 PM   #118
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I wish I didnt feel like we are just wasting our time with this subjects discussion. I never seen anyone come to the boards and ask for all these trash changes, and its very clear they will do what they want reguardless of how we feel. Leave well enough alone and stop meddling with what everyone likes about their class and focus on the trash mechanics that we don't.  Burns me up that I have to deal with this, makes me want to uninstall the game and be done with it. If you can't do something that effects your customer base in a positive way, you should be fired. The idea is to promote the game not drive your players away. You would think that would be a very simple concept to understand.

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Old 08-11-2011, 02:23 AM   #119
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not a bad idea to take off completly melee attack from mage pet and give him only spell range autoattack, maybe it helps from stupid running around

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Old 08-11-2011, 04:38 AM   #120
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Tren I could not agree more.

I've played my necro since I started the game last year. Raided on it a lot and recently switched to it to raid on it full time and I bet I resummon my pet a dozen times a night, I feel for conjies that dont even have the AoE prevent, I personally feel that it is rediclious that they don't have the AoE prevent.  Raiding with a pet is almost punishment, its a pita in every respect.  This GU honestly makes me sick. I'm dreading the heck out of it and to be honest if they screw over my necro I'll just mothball the blasted thing and call it quits on it. Only until recently have I ever felt like I could dps the way a T1 dps should and now they go and screw it up.

If your going to fix something do it in a quality way and its pretty obvious what you have done is not quality.  Your taking a lot more than your replacing and its just down right bs, and I actaully pay you guys to let you do these kinda things. Guess that makes me the stupid one.

I'm pretty sure I'm on the road to switching to a Sorc come next expansion.

Or quitting.  It depends on how re-re this GU is...  Which, at the moment, it is excessively so...

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