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Old 09-21-2010, 10:25 AM   #1
Geothe

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Here are the patch notes:

  • [Fan Faire Feedback] “Freehand Reversal” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack.
  • [Fan Faire Feedback] “Unencumbrance” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack.
  • [Fan Faire Feedback] “Coule” is now a frontal combat art which deals damage and reduces the target's accuracy substantially for a short duration. It has a very low chance to miss.

Now, unfortunately my character copies are bugged out and I cant log into them.  But with a level 1 character, it looks like Freehand Reversal grants 24% base damage (along with 1% Riposte per point).  And I think only the Riposte chance increases with more points spent, not the base damage, someone please correct me if I'm wrong there.Unencumbrance grants 2.6% base damage per point, for a total of 26% with 10 points spent.

Coule reduces target's accuracy by 30% for 20 seconds, and has a 1 minute recast.

So overall, it looks like a 50% base damage increase on autoattacks.  However, the empty off-hand requirement is still present.

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Old 09-21-2010, 10:41 AM   #2
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Okay, my feedback.

a 50% base damage increase is not even close to being high enough to make up for the loss of an offhand weapon!An empty weapon slot means you lose out on Agility, Blue Stats, and Procs.  Completely lose out on them.

Yes, a 50% base damage increase when using only 1 weapon does make the pure autoattack damage equal as if you were Dual Wielding, if all other stats remain the same.  But that doesn't take into account the loss of stats/procs resulting from a completely empty equipment slot!

Something else needs to be added to the Wis line to balance out for these losses.Increasing the base damage from Unencumbrance to 5/point instead is an option.Or something else. But there NEEDs to be something else.

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Old 09-21-2010, 11:24 AM   #3
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I haven't seen it myself yet (will be checking tonight), but I'm being told that Coule is positional, frontal/flanking.

If that's the case it will be harder for Brigs to use this since we have so many rear/flanking attacks that we rarely uses Gouge (our only frontal/flanking). On the other hand Swashies only have one true back attack and this will flow into their natural positioning.

That said can we get this restriction removed so that it's ease of use is more consistent given it is in a "shared" AA Line?

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Old 09-21-2010, 11:31 AM   #4
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Why should rogues be the only class that has to have a handicap to use a aa line? We lose stats off the offhand weapon, procs, and an adornment slot. You cant balance that unless we have weapons that are designed for us to use with our off hand empty. Tanks are the only other class that I am aware of that are limited to having one weapon when they have a shield. They get the benifit of being more defensive. What is our benifit? We get to possibly break even with what we can do with 2 weapons with 1?  The idea is outdated , I think the whole aa line just needs removed and changed. Other classes that had empty offhand restrictions had theirs removed. Why are rogues the only ones that still have one?

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Old 09-21-2010, 11:55 AM   #5
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While I don't have a Rogue class character, it still seems strange that they change this away from double attack while at the same time changing how double attack works.

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Old 09-21-2010, 12:18 PM   #6
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The offhand empty requirement remaining on this line is rather moronic still though, I must say.Like previous poster mentioned, all other classes have had the stupid equipment requirements removed from all of their AA lines long ago, and yet this one remains?  Its just illogical.

-Remove the Empty offhand Requirement.-Change Freehand Reversal to:  2% Base Weapon Damage, 1% Accuracy (or maybe 0.8%) per point, 10 points possible.-Change Unencumbrance to:  3% Double Attack per point, 10 points possible.-Remove the positional requirement from Coule.

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Old 09-21-2010, 12:19 PM   #7
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Treznet wrote:

Why should rogues be the only class that has to have a handicap to use a aa line? We lose stats off the offhand weapon, procs, and an adornment slot. You cant balance that unless we have weapons that are designed for us to use with our off hand empty. Tanks are the only other class that I am aware of that are limited to having one weapon when they have a shield. They get the benifit of being more defensive. What is our benifit? We get to possibly break even with what we can do with 2 weapons with 1?  The idea is outdated , I think the whole aa line just needs removed and changed. Other classes that had empty offhand restrictions had theirs removed. Why are rogues the only ones that still have one?

I'm honestly not bothered by the loss of an offhand if they can keep the overall damage balanced/slightly increased. If they removed the off hand requirement they would have to find a whole new mechanic for the AA's. They are not going to give us that big a boost to our DPS. Ideally the changes to the line should leave us close to where we are (the complaint has been the line is completely useless not rougues are out of balance with other "T2" classes) but provide some cool benefit. Any hopes that this is going to give us a significant DPS boost are unrealistic. The more I look at this it appears to be a Solo/DPS tank style line meant to give us more flexability on that front while still providing some benefit for normal DPS situations. For leveling it probably will be an effective line.

Looking at it from a raiding perspective the biggest problem I see, and this is to several people's point, is that we're more or less losing out on 60 someodd agility, some health/power, and some combination of 11 crit, 11 da, 6% potency, 6% critbonus. That's assuming decent weapons from this expansion that are adorned. I'm discouting any lost proc given decent hit rates/damage #s from Lunge Reversal. I'm not sold that MT survivability increase from the new and improved Coule makes us for that loss (to me it's a new toy and shouldn't be used for balancing line damage), but I do think it's a worthy end line in of itself. I also think it's possible to adjust the line to keep current damage lines in level and make up for the non-auto attack effects lost by not having a second weapon. Take the riposte portion out of Freehand Reversal and add a potency increase that scales by level and I think you'll make up for those "missing stats". Add enough and you probably can make up for any lost abilities in the STR line or the lost health in the stamina line.

Doing that gives us increased raid surviability in the new AA endline (which does need tweaking) and keeps ous close to our current levels (meaning less balance repurcussions). Pull that off and we have a viable line, but not a must have line. My guess is that's what their ultimate goal with these changes are. But what do I know?

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Old 09-21-2010, 12:24 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

While I don't have a Rogue class character, it still seems strange that they change this away from double attack while at the same time changing how double attack works.

Yeah, it is a bit strange. I wonder if they happened in unconnected silos of development work. Either way the more I think about it the more surprised I will be if DA goes through as is. Multi Attack really does seem like something that needs to be introduced with other "over cap" items, otherwise it's going to wreck havoc on itemzation and balance (yeah I'm coming around to that point).

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Old 09-21-2010, 01:09 PM   #9
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End-game this change does not work. I parsed it out on Epic Training dummies last night and with just 25 AGI and 2.5 CB on my off hand the Dual-Weild was about 200DPS more than One-Handed.

Rogue AA choices are pretty poor as we have 2 desired lines end-game after this change. The stamina line (sheild requirement), the Wis line (open off-hand), and the Int line (De-aggro? with up 29% xfer?) are all at odds both with eachother and with endgame mechanics.

My suggestion would be either revamp and remove the off-hand empty and revamp the line or change it to working with a sheild equipped off-hand. The sheild option will allow the rouge to not loose the stats of the offhand without an offhand weapon.

bottom line is if you leave it like this, why even bother to change it at all.

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Old 09-21-2010, 01:09 PM   #10
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Thanks for changing the line, unfortunally its still not where it should be. Right now dual wielding is STILL more dps than wisdom line. The question is, why would someone spend 20 AAs to have LESS dps?

I dont even mind the weapon restriction. I think it owns running arround with just a 1 hander, but it must be worth it. Several people did parses allready and the dps was slightly less than dual wielding. You need to do the maths guys. Right now the change was meant good from you Devs, but its still useless. Please think about it.

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Old 09-21-2010, 02:19 PM   #11
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I hate the weapon restriction, it just leaves us open to be left behind in the future. There is no other class that leaves a slot empty I fail to see how this could be a good thing even if the melee dps is slightly more which it isnt atm.

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Old 09-21-2010, 02:22 PM   #12
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Amusing, all the arguments about why this change isn't good enough are the same arguments about why two-handers weren't worth equipping from ROK forward. You would think at some point that SOE would learn.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:27 PM   #13
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It would be cool if you could equip an offhand and keep the stats/procs, but only use the mainhand for auto atk.

This should also gave rogues a slight dps increase which would be fine. It still would require them to get 2 weapons and would be unique line.

In other words 50% weapon damage bonus on mainhand weapon. This is the only weapon that will auto atk at an increased damage.

The offhand weapon can be equipped and stats and procs fire off the mainhand, but it is only used as a balance, like a symbol And the appearance would be sheathed in combat.

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Old 09-21-2010, 02:33 PM   #14
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Treznet is right thou. Not only is this the last unchanged restriction aa line in game. It also reduces our choices in future when new good weapons come. A change like the brawler or warrior tree is more in line here. Remove the restriction but make the effect not as powerfull.

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Old 09-21-2010, 03:06 PM   #15
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Ok. So the general problems with this Wis-line change:A)  Still requires offhand weapon slot to be empty.  This is bad because you completely lose out on Green/Blue stats, Procs, and adornments from this slot, resulting in a net loss of DPS.B)  Taking the Wis line will result in a NET DECREASE in DPS.  I still don't understand what kind of convoluted thoughts were going through developers' minds when they made this change.  It is completely illogical to invest 24 AA points and end up with lower DPS than what you started with.  This was a good change how?! /boggle

This entire line needs to be adjusted so that it will net an increase in DPS, as that is the entire point in spending AAs in an DPS line. lol.Remove offhand requirement.  This is a relic of the past and shouldnt exist anymore.  Such requirements were removed for every other class in the game, but kept for Rogues for some assinine reason.The bonuses obviously will need to be decreased if 2 weapons are able to be used.  Can follow the same principals from other scout AA trees.Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points.  Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?).  Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.

But in general, as stands, the Wis-line remains a moronic choice for any non-mentally-deficient Rogue to take.

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Old 09-21-2010, 03:14 PM   #16
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Geothe wrote:

Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points.  Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.

Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?).  Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.

So go ahead and explain why rogue AAs should be better for DPS than predator AAs?

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Old 09-21-2010, 03:28 PM   #17
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Gaige wrote:

Geothe wrote:

Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points.  Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.

Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?).  Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.

So go ahead and explain why rogue AAs should be better for DPS than predator AAs?

Wow Gaige, really?  Flurry your head into a wall too many times?Was examples because annoying working with non-even numbers, but ok.Preds get 24% base, change rogue to 2.4% base per point!  24% maxed out.That better for your annoying self?

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Old 09-21-2010, 03:44 PM   #18
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50% and still must remove the offhand weapon. L O L.

Before I checked the boards to see the details I was guessing either 10-15% bonuses total keeping weapon, or 70% with losing weapon.

How stupid does a dev need to be to not understand this? You don't build an AA line which has DPS as its ONLY purpose, and set it up to result in a net loss of damage output!

How many times do we need to demonstrate this with data before you get a clue?

I will bet plat the ONLY reason this line was touched today was not because they wanted to fix a useless line, but because internal testing showed the new multi-attack mechanic gave this line a slight increase.  In other words, they did this to "nerf" this line that zero game-savvy rogues took, not to fix it.  The devs must believe Rogues are right where they should be, so a net-loss "dps" line that no one uses is A-OK, but a very small gain from the 68% "multi attack" with 1 weapon was unacceptable. 

Fanfaire Feedback my rear.

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:03 PM   #19
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Geothe wrote:

Was examples because annoying working with non-even numbers, but ok.

Preds get 24% base, change rogue to 2.4% base per point!  24% maxed out.That better for your annoying self?

No.  Doesn't explain why you think you should get as much base auto mod as the DPS scouts when you're a hybrid scout nor does it explain how you think 30% DA = 28% AE auto, especially after the multiattack changes.

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:17 PM   #20
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Gaige wrote:

Geothe wrote:

Was examples because annoying working with non-even numbers, but ok.

Preds get 24% base, change rogue to 2.4% base per point!  24% maxed out.That better for your annoying self?

No.  Doesn't explain why you think you should get as much base auto mod as the DPS scouts when you're a hybrid scout nor does it explain how you think 30% DA = 28% AE auto, especially after the multiattack changes.

I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:19 PM   #21
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While a 50% boost in auto attack damage for the main hand weapon is a slight boost in auto attack damage over using two weapons (12.5%), I don’t think it is enough to warrant taking this line due to the loss in stats in the off-hand (say 50-60 agility, 3-4 CB or Pot, and 8-11 crit or DA).  In addition to this, this adds the additional penalty of faster attacks and delaying auto attack hits due to combat art casting.  At max haste, with a 4s weapon, there would only be 1.75s time between auto attacks to punch off CAs, where Rogues currently have just over 2.6s between auto attacks.  Penalties on CAs and AA lines have been slowly being removed due to being “not fun” or just plain out of date with today’s Everquest 2 experience. 

I suggest instead to have the Freehand reversal changed simply to a double attack increaser while still able to equip 2 weapons, most melee classes get something of this form via AA.  Change Unencumbrance to work while dual wielding at the same rate you planned to increase their auto attack damage by making it 1.25% per point, which to be honest I think it still a bit too low especially when compared to Assassins.  It would still be a powerful line, but allow you to put items in all of your equip slots to maintain higher stats.

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:21 PM   #22
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Treznet wrote:

I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs

Oh so useless debuffs = useful debuffs to you.  Unless you're trying to imply our crit debuff = all of your debuffs combined?

Fact is Brigands are brought to raids for their debuffs first, dps second.  Assassins are brought to raids for their dps first, dps second, dps third, etc.

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:30 PM   #23
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Gaige wrote:

Treznet wrote:

I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs

Oh so useless debuffs = useful debuffs to you.  Unless you're trying to imply our crit debuff = all of your debuffs combined?

Fact is Brigands are brought to raids for their debuffs first, dps second.  Assassins are brought to raids for their dps first, dps second, dps third, etc.

Your absolutely correct that was the intended setup was for brigs to debuff and assassin to dps. you ask why we want dps equal to other class, it is because debuffs we're spread out to all classes and now our job is useless. Your debuffs arent much but all classes got a little piece and now we have nothing except subpar dps and debuffs that do little. So what do we ask for? all other classes debuffs nerfed and given to us? Im sure that will go over just as well as rogues getting a dps increase.

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Old 09-21-2010, 05:34 PM   #24
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Gaige wrote:

Treznet wrote:

I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs

Oh so useless debuffs = useful debuffs to you.  Unless you're trying to imply our crit debuff = all of your debuffs combined?

Fact is Brigands are brought to raids for their debuffs first, dps second.  Assassins are brought to raids for their dps first, dps second, dps third, etc.

Wow gaige, can you try any harder?In a raid setting, Brig mit debuffs debuffs haven't done jack since ROK due to the fact that darn near every single class in the game can debuff mitigations now, and the debuff cap is so easily reach on raid mobs it is completely laughable.  And then this expansion, the only semi-useful rogue special debuff left, Traumatic Swipe, was made 100% useless on raids.So, actually, Preds have far more useful debuffs than Brigs in a raid setting now, and vastly superior DPS.  Like I said, nice try.And a "hybrid scout" [Removed for Content].  [Removed for Content] are you smoking?  How are brigs in this expansion a hybrid scout in raids?  we bring zero group utility.  Our debuffs are completely redundant, brigs only bring DPS now, and the least of all the DPSing scouts, even more so with the new offhand mechanics change.

And Undorett:  The 50% base increase with empty offhand actually results in zero increase in autoattack damage.  50% was chosen because it evens things out exactly, while ignorantly not taking into account all of the negatives associated with an empty equipment slot.

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Old 09-21-2010, 06:06 PM   #25
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DISPATCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHH

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Old 09-21-2010, 06:09 PM   #26
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The only possible benefit you'd get out of this line is if your primary weapon vastly exceeds the quality of your offhander.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:18 PM   #27
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[email protected] wrote:

The only possible benefit you'd get out of this line is if your primary weapon vastly exceeds the quality of your offhander.

Or if you want the debuff?

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Old 09-21-2010, 06:22 PM   #28
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True, I should have stated the only dps benefit.  30% accuracy reduction for 20s could be rather meaningful.  Especially with the 60s reuse meaning that at 50% reuse the buff will be up half the time.

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Old 09-21-2010, 06:22 PM   #29
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It really seems like balancing this AA line would be so much easier if it dropped the equipment restriction.  And given that there seems to be relatively little complaint about losing the single 1-hander setup, it seems like the thing to do.

Or, if possible, perhaps the effects of this AA line could be made conditional, so that you could have a major boost to a single weapon (in case it was enough to induce someone to use it at a particular level range and equipment options during leveling) or a more moderate boost to both of a dual-wielder's weapons.

Whether the boost was focused mostly on DPS or on providing some kind of buff/debuff effect I'd leave to others who know the class far better than me.

Plus, getting rid of the hard restriction on the empty offhand it would make it possible for the WIS line to actually complement another line instead of competing with others -- which is an issue with the current lineup that Cruckin pointed out above, in which equipment choice entirely rules out AA lines (and vice versa).

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Old 09-21-2010, 06:27 PM   #30
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Having a two rogues in raid both spec'd for this to basically trade off 20s debuffs of 30% accuracy on a melee heavy raid mob could actually result in a meaningful reduction in dps. I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?
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