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Old 11-07-2014, 02:08 AM   #211
Endymion

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Enemyon.
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Old 11-07-2014, 03:15 AM   #212
Nezette

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Frienemyon?

Surely we can compromise with this?
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:03 AM   #213
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Buddymion.
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:25 AM   #214
Katanallama

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He's Enemyon to me - I got oreos for him during my terrible panel --- OREOS ---- and he wasn't there Frown
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:34 AM   #215
Nezette

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What'd you end up doing with the Oreos?
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:48 AM   #216
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WHAT WHY WASN'T I TOLD ABOUT THIS. Though given my Vegas escapades, it's probably best I didn't eat cookies...
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:51 AM   #217
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Well to be fair, I also told everyone not to come to my panel and like 8 devs showed up anyways :|

I used the oreos as bribes to get Q&A questions, and then the devs misbehaved so I had to punish everyone by no longer giving out oreos Frown
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Old 11-07-2014, 08:01 AM   #218
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Nez, LoL comic so good. and that was hilarious when gninja did that..I was dying. We were like "no its Nexona, no gninja!" *wipe* lol..good times. I was honestly mostly afk that fight.. using wand. then turn wand off cuz wand too strong! hahah
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:22 AM   #219
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Question: Have you considered taking the reverse-psychology approach to swashbuckling? Like, "My oh my, the 48 Multi-attack on Ruthless Cunning is so freaking strong! And when I stack it with Perfect Finesse?! Baby oh baby, Mages be all sorts of jelly when I get these temps rollin'..." ??
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:03 AM   #220
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Frienemyon, for you!

[IMG]
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:53 AM   #221
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Now it's poisons/auto attack dominating the parse for scouts this also applies to dominating mages on the parses as well!
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Old 11-09-2014, 02:09 AM   #222
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Yes, friend, we know.

Xelgad said he'd fix it at some point.

ETA: though, he probs shouldn't fuss with them until after he adjusts ability damage, since... CAs are lols
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Old 11-10-2014, 12:52 AM   #223
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This is a bad concept IMO.
Go play a dirge for a bit. See how easy it is to get a terrible RO recording.
Tank spins mob wrong way, mage drags mob across room, mob shoot missiles so need to run away, you get mezzed etc etc
So if any of that happens not only is that 10 seconds of dps going to be bad you would have the next 10 seconds be bad as well.
And have this style mechanic all the time?
No thanks.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:00 AM   #224
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just make Combat Art Double Attack instead flurry. Nerf initial damage of weapons by 2 times. Let the beastlords use poisons if you totally can't think up something special for them. Give swashies singular focus for their aoes. Adjust ranger's CA up to sin's and dirge's up to troub's. Just make the real balance at last. I wrote this and laughed. All 7 last years I've been playing the devs speak about class balance and I don't remember the time when they actually were balanced. Any addon was a portion of love for random one and bad/nothing for others.
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Old 11-10-2014, 08:58 AM   #225
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So, I'm not an expert on scouts because I don't play any, but I may have an idea that would make CA's matter without readjusting every CA for scouts (and maybe even fighters/priests) along with gear/prestige/AA.

So, basically, you could get a buff that acts similar to Fiery Blast or Rhythmic Overture, except it would likely be constantly up or up more frequently. This buff would begin when you enter combat and end when you leave combat. While it is up, every 10 seconds (or another time interval) it would record ONLY your CA damage. The following 10 seconds would give you a multiplier to your auto-attack damage based on the CA damage you did in the previous 10 seconds, while simultaneously recording CA damage for the next 10 seconds. Therefore, the more CA damage you do, the more auto attack damage you do. Therefore, the amount of DPS scouts do could potentially be the same (or adjusted if desired) but your use of CA's would actually matter.

However, in order to balance it, your initial base auto attack multiplier would be reduced. I'm going to just make up these numbers for illustration since I do not know what they actually are. So let's say auto attack accounts for 60% of your DPS (not including procs resulting from auto). If you want auto attack to be around 20% of your DPS instead, then first reduce base auto attack by 1/3. If we wanted overall DPS to stay the same, then since we are reducing auto attack by 1/3, then on average we would want to multiply it by 3 in order to balance it. Therefore, if we take an average amount of CA DPS (not an average player's CA DPS, but an average amount of DPS CA's could do over a long duration with expected levels of pot/cb/etc. by a relatively skilled player) and use that as a threshold amount of CA damage, we could keep overall levels of DPS the same at a desired level of skill. Thus, auto attack would still show up as 60%, but that would only happen if you did enough DPS with CA's to get good multipliers.

For instance, let's say that this threshold is 2 million DPS (ONLY from CA's). Thus, for every 2 million DPS you do, you would get an auto attack multiplier of 3 to balance out the overall DPS (since it had been reduced by 1/3 initially). By doing this, at the very least you would have to USE CA's in order for your auto attack to do decent damage. Thus you could not be AFK and get the maximum potential of auto attack damage (because it would be 1/3 as effective without any CA's). Another advantage of this would be for aggro. A lot of scouts say that they rip aggro just by turning on auto attack. With this new buff, since the first 10 seconds would be recording CA damage and you haven't actually received a multiplier yet, and the base multiplier was reduced by 1/3, your initial auto attack damage would generate much less hate.

The equation for the multiplier could look something like this (assuming base multiplier has been reduced by 1/3):
Multiplier = maximum of [3*(Recorded DPS)/(Threshold DPS) and 1]. This way if you do no CA's you will still do auto attack damage, but it will be 1/3 the effectiveness as it is currently, and for every multiple of the threshold DPS you would get a multiplier of 3.

Here would be an example of a fight where auto attack has been reduced by 1/3 and every 2 million DPS corresponds to a X3 increase in auto attack damage.

0-10 seconds: Recording CA damage, so no multiplier given yet (or 1/3X current auto attack damage). You are using debuffs, basic abilities, and preparing to use stronger abilities, so your initial CA DPS is only 1 million, so you will be given a 3*(1 mil/2 mil) = 1.5 multiplier during the next 10 seconds.
10-20 seconds: (1.5 multiplier or 1.5*1/3 = 0.5X current auto attack damage) During this time you have used temps and big hitters and achieved 4 mil DPS with CA's, which results in 3*(4 mil/2 mil) = 6 multiplier, which will be given to you during the next 10 seconds.
20-30 seconds: (6 multiplier or 6*1/3 = 2X current auto attack damage) During this time most of your temps and big hitters are down, so you mostly have average to lesser abilities, and are doing 2 mil DPS with CA's, which results in 3*(2 mil/2 mil) = 3 multiplier, which will be given to you during the next 10 seconds.
30-40 seconds: (3 multiplier or 3*1/3 = 1X current auto attack damage) You decide to go AFK because you are bored, so you do not do any CA damage, which results in 3*(0 mil/2 mil) = 0 multiplier, however it takes the maximum of this and 1, which means you will be given a multiplier of 1 during the next 10 seconds. Thus, since auto attack has been reduced by 1/3 initially, going AFK would result in 1*1/3 = 1/3 of the auto attack damage you can do currently.
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:16 AM   #226
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What what you are suggesting is basically a RO or FB all the time.
As those abilities work now you can plan for them, have abilities set to go and warn group you are trying to record.
What you are suggesting would provide no room for set up because it is running all the time.
Lets ok at fights as multiple 10 second blocks of time.
And lets say an encounter takes 3 blocks or 30 seconds.
First block scout dps would be bad (no previous block)
Second block dps is good from previous block, but a mechanic causes scout to loose ability to use CAs for 5 seconds (mez, movement whatever).
So now third block with poor previous recording is again bad.
Total of good scout dps in a 30 second encounter is 5 seconds.

I agree wholeheartedly that scout CAs should matter a great deal more.
Person A playing a scout watching timing bars doing proper rotation of CAs and paying attention should do way more dps than scout B who hit auto attack and went back to watching tv.
But there are too many factors beyond the control of person A for a constant recording system to be the basis of all their dps. It works ok as a nice bonus during a proper RO setup and the scout can control when it is used but it is too inconsistent to be used as the backbone of the scout dps.
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:25 AM   #227
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True you can't plan for it every time to make it amazing (although you still could for some of the blocks when temps/etc. are up), but it's not meant to be an ability that always does high damage, it is meant to translate all (not just some like FB or RO) of your combat art damage into auto-attack damage so that scouts who do more CA damage also do more auto damage. If it was something like 10 seconds with high reuse and a huge burst increase to auto damage, then it wouldn't really change the current situation since most of your CA's still wouldn't matter (only 10 seconds out of whatever the reuse was, which is why I proposed for it to constantly be up so that ALL of the CA's matter). I suppose another way it could work is similar to Sorcerer increments. So as you use your CA's it records your damage to build up base weapon damage (so some amount of CA damage would correspond to a certain amount of BWD up to a maximum), and then you would have another ability that gives you a temporary buff.

So for instance, every 1 mil of CA damage could give you 1% base weapon damage up to a certain maximum. It would always be up saving "increments". Then you would have 2 minutes (like Sorcerers) to use the buff after a CA has been used, which could last 10 seconds or so. And once you use the buff, your CA damage resets and starts to get recorded for the next one (while the buff is up).
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:29 AM   #228
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Honestly, please stop posting bad ideas in the scout thread, even though this is nowhere near as bad as Mogrim's early trolling, we still need constructive ideas that won't completely neuter scouts. No other classes auto attack damage is dependent on active dps, and it would be an awkward mechanic that would probably take six months worth of patches to make work correctly.
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:39 AM   #229
Iseous

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Okay I'll stop and leave it to the experts.
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Old 11-11-2014, 02:28 AM   #230
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I think a much better way of dealing with the underlying problem of Scouts and Fighters being so Auto Attack heavy is not to try to cover the problem with a new mechanic, but to go class by class and rebalance each attack and buff… all of them. I think also working over the Scouts is needed. I think that doing the Fighters is also needed since they seem to have the same underlying problems that the Scouts have. Also when they are doing it also looking over the Healers and Mages would be a good idea.

I will not try to say how to work the Scouts, but I do know a bit about fighters … the changes that they did with making Taunts much larger helped, but I think they can do a better job integrating the DPS changes, Recklessness, Taunts, Snaps, AoE/ST, and Tanking. By working the stances better and not relying on Itemization to make Recklessness work properly. I think if they keep in mind DPS from Abilities and hate from Taunts when they are rebalancing them all, then they can make the Taunts into Damage in Recklessness.
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Old 11-11-2014, 04:21 AM   #231
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for Rangers specificially, the majority of our parse comes from our Auto Attack and our Procs (makeshift arrows, quick shot, wounding shot, erollisi's heartseeker, flaming weapons, and burning) when you look at the dmg from the rest of our abilities they're really really low.

One thing that could be done to start working on this issue is to lower the base reuse timer of these CAs that are supposed to do well on our parses but dont. 2 minute, 30 seconds on Sniper Shot is waaaay too long for it to matter as much as it should. then we look at our Blues and Greens and the majority of them take over 1 minute to cast. Specially Ranger greens which are 1 minute 30 seconds each... that's just too damn long specially if we want to contribute on AoE fights.
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Old 11-11-2014, 08:46 AM   #232
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Well I've played a Wiz before and Fiery Blast is pretty much the same concept as RO. So I know how certain fight mechanics or raid/group mistakes can screw the whole chain up. And despite no direct experience with scouts, DPS is just math... I'm sure I could learn how to play a scout pretty quickly, but I have no interest in playing classes that are apparently 90% AFK DPS and can't DPS on a lot of fights because of the script. It's much more rewarding knowing the buttons you press can make a huge difference versus a scout where all you really need is good gear/group/raid and don't interrupt auto attack and you get the majority of your DPS regardless of the CA's you press. And everything you just said would suck regardless of this mechanic or not.
1. Tank shouldn't be spinning the mob the wrong way.
2. Mage shouldn't be dragging mob across the room unless it's part of the script, in which case your DPS is going to go down either way.
3. Need to run away; obviously you won't be able to hit the mob if you have to run away so either way you're screwed.
4. You get mezzed. Obviously you're screwed there too regardless.

But the whole point of this thread is that scout DPS is mostly auto, whereas you clicking buttons means very little. It would be nice if auto attack was reduced to a little higher than mage auto and CA's were actually doing something significant, but that would mean changing a lot of abilities, AA, prestige, gear layout, etc. At least with this concept, it is using a similar mechanic that already exists (Fiery Blast, RO).
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