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Old 03-12-2010, 02:14 AM   #151
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dlove183 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I'm 100% sure that not 1 enchanter in this thread said we should parse the same as sorcs and preds. reading comprehension ftw?

I am now parsing with the dirges and also an inq in the scout group that gets TC from the other illy. so, in our raids, the assassin is way out in front with 22-23k zw. ranger, sorc, conji are all fighting for 2-4 with none having a clear advantage. necro, swash, brig, SK, and Guard round out the top 9. next are the 2 coercers followed by a mix of illies, dirges, and the inq. the troub is usually in the bottom of this group.

if I use your logic, why are the tanks parsing as t2 dps? why is a healer doing 10-12k? I've seen the conji in the #1 spot in a lot of fights even though the sorc has better gear.   your logic sucks.  enchanters should be doing 65-75% of t1 dps. that is the way it was after the proc nerfs. that is the way it would be now if they would give us the same crit mods.

I say give us the same crit mods as every other mage and if YOU don't want to dps.......   dont. a second tick back on our myth buff wouldn't hurt anything either.

at least that would make me keep paying for my account.

Troll alert.  Not worth my time. 

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Old 03-12-2010, 12:03 PM   #152
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troll alert? are you serious? thats your defense for not reading a thread and posting stupidity in it?

if you are topping parses, post them. otherwise reach in the fridge and get yourself a nice tall bottle of S.T. EF U

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Old 03-12-2010, 05:49 PM   #153
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I will bite.  Here is a raid parse (incomplete) from a couple nights ago - this is an example.  I believe we had 2.5 groups in this raid as a result the parse is a fair bit low but reasonably scaled to the players.  The differences I see from a typical parse is our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse, and our dirges are usually above me in the parse.  He was probably resing folks this fight, the conjy might have died.  Not sure.  What is startling is the lock is doing 14% of the damage and I am doing 7%.  Where I used to produce 80% of the damage of a wizard or lock, I am now effectively doing 50%.  I want to point out where a lot of illusionists are purposely NOT complaining about the dps nerf, I am.  I would like to see my scale come back to 80% of T1 dps where we were.  In addition I would like to see one more power proc added back to my mythical.  Everything goes along fine until you are completely power drained - then its very difficult to get everyone full again.  One more proc will not eliminate that pain, but would definitely help.  As for self-buff TC?  It seems to be the fair thing to do. 

My asks from SOE (which will go ignored because SOE and god hate illusionists)

-Add one more power proc back to our mythical

-Put us back to 80% of T1 dps

-Either allow us to put TC on ourselves, or take away the ability to self-buff BC/UT.

Wyvernlord Tuluun: DAMAGE --- 27924164 over 02:50 --- 164260

(14%) Lock: 24560

(12%) Wizard: 20705

(11%) Conjy: 18335

(10%) SK: 17352

(9%) Brig: 14809

(7%) Brig: 12611

(7%) Me (illy): 12281

(6%) Coercer: 10275

(5%) Dirge: 8690

(5%) Pally: 8531

(5%) Troub: 8496

 

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Old 03-14-2010, 03:25 AM   #154
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[email protected] wrote:

AdamWest007 wrote:

I have to admit that I was originally in full agreement with you on the crappy AAs.  My opinion has changed though.

Consider the new toys...

Sever hate: With 8 points in the Sever hate focus, we can now allow a scout to stay in during AEs.  Very useful for swipe, dispatch, or even a boost in assassin dps. I have even dropped it on a healer to allow an offtank to get rezzed during an AE. We have had Sever Hate for a long time now, this isn't new. Resprite is new and it ain't that impressive. And not even on my list of "To get".

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate. This one is the stupidest of them all. Instead of giving this as an AA, why not just fix Snap Thought, is does almost the same thing. I'm almost always in the OT group so just fix Snap Thought. Absolutely stupid, but useful for those who don't have a second Coercer. Just macro it for the OT.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain. WOOHOO, a group Velocity instead of casting 3 individual ones. BIG UPGRADE! Right.

Channeling (Enchanter end line):  Really needs to be on a faster reuse, but its a great "oh s***" button. New toy? Had this spell forever. Nothing new! You must be talking about Channeled Focus, That super uber buff on a ten minute reuse? Too bad I have to spend a load of AAs on crap to get to it. And since I'm no longer on the JCap rotation normally, it pretty much stays a 10 min recast.

So you are telling me that out of 13 new AA options that 4 are actually useful? WOOHOO, what a deal I got and just didn't realize it. Not bad when you consider that I as a Coercer am only interested in two of them, Group Velocity and Channeled Focus. The other 11 are either useless or a rehash of  crap they broke a long time ago and instead of fixing what they broke they just made new ones. Of course Coercive shout won't be around long just like it original version known as Snap Thought. Someone will decide it's too powerful for raids and will nerf it also.

Obviously, if you don't like the direction they took Coercer's (What gave you that idea?) then you will still find a way to be upset with these AAs.  Im just trying to bring some light into this dark post. 

Now with that all said, I don't care that Furys are occasionally out parsing me. Don't care that I dropped out of the top 7 on the parse to being not on the parse at all. I don't care that a lot of people are quiting their Illys and Coercers to play another class. Why do I not care? Simply put, I thought we were going to get screwed even worse then what we did. Coercer will eventually go back where we where 2 1/2 years ago when a ton of Coercers just flat quit the game. Others, like myself shelved our Coercer to play a different class. I'll not willing to shift my main again so pretty well stuck with my Coercer. The only thing new is that my Coercer will not be available for general play and will be one less Enchanter in the mix for groups and other fun things. The problem is that Sony has no clue what they want us to be. We are the least played class in the game and will only become more "endangered" as it goes along. Two and a half years ago we where the only class that was actually losing numbers. After the big fix, a ton of new Coercers all of a sudden showed up. Now the part time Coercers will quit playing, and wondering how many of the betrayed Illusionist will go back. Most people got what they wanted, nerfed Enchanters, so how much simpathy will I have for you while you call for "LF Enchanter for.....", Umm none. Sorry, not available for groups outside guild. I'm be on another toon instead.

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Old 03-15-2010, 07:31 PM   #155
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[email protected] wrote:

our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse,

Yah .. but your Conjy is OP ;P

That parse is what I would expect given the current state of things. This will get WORSE in the coming months as people get fully mastered and gear up more. Peronsally I am running in top 3-4 of my guilds parse (often), but that has more to do with more effort on my part (gear and so on). I am parsing about the same as your coercer.

The problem isnt that 20% crit bonus other mages get, it is the mechanics differents between the classes and Base damage numbers on spells. If you are pulling 12k rightnow, that would be ~7500 before crits. If you had a 1.5 base crit that would mean you would have done 13.5k.

The only thing we use to have going for us was our abilities to leverage Procs due to the insane amount of spells we cast. Since Procs have been nerfed to hell and back, we have no advantage at all. To bring enchanters more inline DPS wise, we would need to have our basic spell damage numbers increase slightly.

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Old 03-17-2010, 09:43 AM   #156
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse,

 The only thing we use to have going for us was our abilities to leverage Procs due to the insane amount of spells we cast. Since Procs have been nerfed to hell and back, we have no advantage at all. To bring enchanters more inline DPS wise, we would need to have our basic spell damage numbers increase slightly.

This is precisely the issue. Illy spells simply don't hit that hard, yes we can recast them quickly but overall it doesnt compare in basic outgoing damage to almost every other mage.All the new crit bonus/recast/casting/ability/base components on the new SF gear that is having a massive effect for every other mage is having very minimal effect on the illy class. This is simply because our spells hit for so little that even MASSIVE amounts of crit bonus/base is having very little effect. Whereas as a wizzy a 5% increase on a 25k hit is having a massive difference, then throw in all the new recast/casting speed gear that is available and you have the reason why you are seeing illys struggle to even come close to 80% of their damage. As a illy I dont need any casting speed gear we cast fast enough as it is and a .001 % increase in relative terms is going to have no effect on my parse. Again though for other classes with longer innate longer cast times then all the recast/casting speed stuff makes a massive difference.

I don't see SOE fixing anything soon honestly. In a ideal world they would increase the core damage of the illy spells to even things out but thats not going to happen. They could also think about removing caps on casting/recast but that would cause more issues than it would solve, the amount of spamming a illy would have to do with spells would be silly.

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Old 03-19-2010, 01:48 PM   #157
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GloveSave72 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse,

 The only thing we use to have going for us was our abilities to leverage Procs due to the insane amount of spells we cast. Since Procs have been nerfed to hell and back, we have no advantage at all. To bring enchanters more inline DPS wise, we would need to have our basic spell damage numbers increase slightly.

This is precisely the issue. Illy spells simply don't hit that hard, yes we can recast them quickly but overall it doesnt compare in basic outgoing damage to almost every other mage.All the new crit bonus/recast/casting/ability/base components on the new SF gear that is having a massive effect for every other mage is having very minimal effect on the illy class. This is simply because our spells hit for so little that even MASSIVE amounts of crit bonus/base is having very little effect. Whereas as a wizzy a 5% increase on a 25k hit is having a massive difference, then throw in all the new recast/casting speed gear that is available and you have the reason why you are seeing illys struggle to even come close to 80% of their damage. As a illy I dont need any casting speed gear we cast fast enough as it is and a .001 % increase in relative terms is going to have no effect on my parse. Again though for other classes with longer innate longer cast times then all the recast/casting speed stuff makes a massive difference.

I don't see SOE fixing anything soon honestly. In a ideal world they would increase the core damage of the illy spells to even things out but thats not going to happen. They could also think about removing caps on casting/recast but that would cause more issues than it would solve, the amount of spamming a illy would have to do with spells would be silly.

I have noticed that potency has helped my parse more than any other stat.  However my parse will likely always remain 50% relational to mages as they gain potency as well.  Its nice to be 70% of mage dps rather than 50% however short the duration.  Tbh, I do not care how they fix chanters, they just need to be addressed.  I am restating my asks in case there are any questions:

1. Add one more power proc back to our mythical/mythical buff.

2. Put us back to 80% of mage dps (either make our spells hit harder, aa line for potency, I don't care how they go about it).

3. Allow us to self-buff TC, or remove bard self-buff of BC/UT.  If they are going to treat us like bards, treat us all equally.

This is my mantra.

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Old 03-19-2010, 02:18 PM   #158
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I've come to realize that the mechanics of this expansion are just flying directly in the face of Enchanters.

The problems are too numerous to even get into without a Dev agreeing to look at it honestly.  I am 10 levels, 50 AA's and a ton of gear further along than I was one year ago, yet in the same group with the same buffs, I parse a lot less.

Glad I chose to switch to another class.  I only play my chanter now when we absolutely cannot find anyone else to fill the power regen role.

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Old 03-19-2010, 02:18 PM   #159
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GloveSave72 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse,

 The only thing we use to have going for us was our abilities to leverage Procs due to the insane amount of spells we cast. Since Procs have been nerfed to hell and back, we have no advantage at all. To bring enchanters more inline DPS wise, we would need to have our basic spell damage numbers increase slightly.

This is precisely the issue. Illy spells simply don't hit that hard, yes we can recast them quickly but overall it doesnt compare in basic outgoing damage to almost every other mage.All the new crit bonus/recast/casting/ability/base components on the new SF gear that is having a massive effect for every other mage is having very minimal effect on the illy class. This is simply because our spells hit for so little that even MASSIVE amounts of crit bonus/base is having very little effect. Whereas as a wizzy a 5% increase on a 25k hit is having a massive difference, then throw in all the new recast/casting speed gear that is available and you have the reason why you are seeing illys struggle to even come close to 80% of their damage. As a illy I dont need any casting speed gear we cast fast enough as it is and a .001 % increase in relative terms is going to have no effect on my parse. Again though for other classes with longer innate longer cast times then all the recast/casting speed stuff makes a massive difference.

I don't see SOE fixing anything soon honestly. In a ideal world they would increase the core damage of the illy spells to even things out but thats not going to happen. They could also think about removing caps on casting/recast but that would cause more issues than it would solve, the amount of spamming a illy would have to do with spells would be silly.

To add salt to injury, crit bonus and potency, the two modifications that really help enchanters,  have very expensive item budget compared to casting speed, spell modifications.  Sorcerers get very good use from casting speed and spell modification.  Enchanters in raiding guilds have to search for those items with potency/crit bonus while sorcerers can just grab any items and their dps will get huge improvement.

It is just wrong that enchanters only benefit from 2 very expensive components while all other mages can benefit from 4 or 5 components.  Before, enchanters compensated this shortage from proc items, now proc items cannot crit, don't get any benefit from potency/crit bonus.    We are gonna have even tougher times as people get better geard.

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Old 03-19-2010, 02:36 PM   #160
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Banditman wrote:

I've come to realize that the mechanics of this expansion are just flying directly in the face of Enchanters.

The problems are too numerous to even get into without a Dev agreeing to look at it honestly.  I am 10 levels, 50 AA's and a ton of gear further along than I was one year ago, yet in the same group with the same buffs, I parse a lot less.

Glad I chose to switch to another class.  I only play my chanter now when we absolutely cannot find anyone else to fill the power regen role.

Absolutely.  Sorcerers now parse 25k, me, 10k if I am lucky.   The sorcerer is doing 150% more dps than another mage class!

I have played pretty much all MMO games, and have never seen such huge dps disparty between different mage/dps.

I hate to drag WoW in but since I have quite extensive raiding experience and knowledge in WoW, I will offer brief comparison.  In WoW,  a top dps class, mage (simiar to wizzard), is intended to only do 5-10% more dps than a shaman/paladin/druid that focus on dps/buff while other dps classes fill in between.   If said mage or warlock does 20% more dps,  you bet the developers will nerf them.  Players in WoW feel this is the best solution even though shaman/paladin/druid can respec to healing roles easily.

Since in EQ2, healers don't really dps in raid, enchanters and bards can be comparable to dps shaman/paladin/druids that dps buff in WoW,  idealy, enchanters should do about 10-20 less dps than sorcerers.    Plus, unlike shaman/druid/paladin, we cannot change to healers; we are of of the MAGE classes.

The claim that enchanters were oped because raids need them due to their buffs/dps is completely unfounded and refuted in this expansion.  The enchanters are doing garbage dps now, but they are needed more than ever with all those power drain debuffs.   Even if enchanters' dps is increased, raids will not increase enchanter's slots since every group already needs an enchanter.  Similarly, even if sorcerers are not doing, say, 20%, more dps than enchanters, raids still will invite sorcerers.  Who else are they gonna fill out the mage group?   2 enchanters to waste spots and waste some buffs?

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Old 03-20-2010, 07:06 PM   #161
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dlove183 wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ilsa's Barrier Fight

Do you guys enjoy this fight? Furies give me Salve so I can help group cure/heal the trauma. I don't know about you but I find it exhilarating to cast Salve and as soon as the trauma hits, gone. Cured their butts like it was nothing. Stuff like this keeps me going. Maybe because I just enjoy playing "video games"

this made me LOL.   I'm glad you found a use for us. we are the new salve targets. wait... who raids with a fury?

we raided with 18 last night. it's the first time we haven't had a full raid since before TSO. had 1 coercer and 1 illy. in TSO we usually had 6 chanters with more available if we needed them. the dps group was a sorc, necro, conji, troub, inq. they had 0 issues with power until we got to mobs with a power drain. I also noticed the conji really putting up nice numbers with everyone's gear getting pretty equal. I'm still full TSO. I haven't rolled on any raid gear since I am leaving.

I enjoy playing video games too. if you are playing a racing game do you look through the cars for a slow one with nice mileage?

Everyone should raid with a Fury to be honest, they can solo heal a group and do as much DPS as an Illusionist! Whilst giving 10% crit bonus to the group which is way better than any lame Illy buff!

Im not having a go at Furys, I think they are perfect the way they are now, about time they got some love. I am just illustrating how pathetic the Illusionist class is in Sentinals Fate.  You need a total revamp of our DPS and utlity. Boost the base damage of our skills, increase our crit bonus to 150% and give us buffs that actually matter. 

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Old 03-21-2010, 11:50 AM   #162
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Jeepned2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate. This one is the stupidest of them all. Instead of giving this as an AA, why not just fix Snap Thought, is does almost the same thing. I'm almost always in the OT group so just fix Snap Thought. Absolutely stupid, but useful for those who don't have a second Coercer. Just macro it for the OT.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain. WOOHOO, a group Velocity instead of casting 3 individual ones. BIG UPGRADE! Right.

Obviously you are missing the largest component of Coercive Shout..  The fact that it's a 5 second 100% riposte.  The only time I ever use it for agro issues is when there's a mem-wipe.. Otherwise it is always used when the tank starts to spike.

Group Velocity is huge.. 5% crit bonus for the group is amazing with consolidated crits.

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Old 03-21-2010, 09:04 PM   #163
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Carthrax wrote:

Jeepned2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate. This one is the stupidest of them all. Instead of giving this as an AA, why not just fix Snap Thought, is does almost the same thing. I'm almost always in the OT group so just fix Snap Thought. Absolutely stupid, but useful for those who don't have a second Coercer. Just macro it for the OT.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain. WOOHOO, a group Velocity instead of casting 3 individual ones. BIG UPGRADE! Right.

Obviously you are missing the largest component of Coercive Shout..  The fact that it's a 5 second 100% riposte.  The only time I ever use it for agro issues is when there's a mem-wipe.. Otherwise it is always used when the tank starts to spike. I didn't say this wasn't a good spelll, what I said is it's a retread. Why they couldn't have just fixed Snap Thought to this instead of making a whole new spell is beyond my understanding, And I'm waiting to see how long until this is nerfed just like Snap Thought was, especially since this is even more powerful then Snap Thought.

Group Velocity is huge.. 5% crit bonus for the group is amazing with consolidated crits. I already was giving a 5% crit based on my class legs, just not group wide. Oh and btw, this and class legs 5% crit don't stack. Guess this was a way for me to keep my 5% crit after I replace my level 80 class legs.

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Old 03-24-2010, 02:47 PM   #164
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Umm..  The 5% crit bonus for velocity is due to the T4 legs.. There's no inherent 5% crit bonus tacked on to Velocity without the legs..  So of course they don't stack when it doesn't exist.

And who cares that they didn't fix Thought Snap?!?!  I probably wouldn't have wasted the 10 extra AA to unlock it, since there's practically nothing good in that tree anyways.

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Old 03-24-2010, 04:16 PM   #165
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Is there any reponse in any similar thread from a dev?

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Old 03-24-2010, 05:52 PM   #166
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[email protected] wrote:

Is there any reponse in any similar thread from a dev?

Dev's respond?.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....ummm (breath)....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... umm No they haven't.

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Old 03-25-2010, 10:20 AM   #167
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[email protected] wrote:

I will bite.  Here is a raid parse (incomplete) from a couple nights ago - this is an example.  I believe we had 2.5 groups in this raid as a result the parse is a fair bit low but reasonably scaled to the players.  The differences I see from a typical parse is our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse, and our dirges are usually above me in the parse.  He was probably resing folks this fight, the conjy might have died.  Not sure.  What is startling is the lock is doing 14% of the damage and I am doing 7%.  Where I used to produce 80% of the damage of a wizard or lock, I am now effectively doing 50%.  I want to point out where a lot of illusionists are purposely NOT complaining about the dps nerf, I am.  I would like to see my scale come back to 80% of T1 dps where we were.  In addition I would like to see one more power proc added back to my mythical.  Everything goes along fine until you are completely power drained - then its very difficult to get everyone full again.  One more proc will not eliminate that pain, but would definitely help.  As for self-buff TC?  It seems to be the fair thing to do. 

My asks from SOE (which will go ignored because SOE and god hate illusionists)

-Add one more power proc back to our mythical

-Put us back to 80% of T1 dps

-Either allow us to put TC on ourselves, or take away the ability to self-buff BC/UT.

Wyvernlord Tuluun: DAMAGE --- 27924164 over 02:50 --- 164260

(14%) Lock: 24560

(12%) Wizard: 20705

(11%) Conjy: 18335

(10%) SK: 17352

(9%) Brig: 14809

(7%) Brig: 12611

(7%) Me (illy): 12281

(6%) Coercer: 10275

(5%) Dirge: 8690

(5%) Pally: 8531

(5%) Troub: 8496

 

yeah, it is so great that even tanks easily outparse you. scouts do it all the time in our raids (btw, your bards suck SMILEY

still there is a lot of potential from gear for the wiz and you dont even have an elementalist. 30-50k is probably what T1 should do in SF and from what i can see from encounters requiring dps to beat them that is the least they should do. Due to the mechanics i cant see illusionists at half those numbers, all scouts, all other mages most tanks parsing better and also having lots of "utility" is just plain annoying. i wonder how many healer classes will parse better in 6 months.

And it is really annoying that none of the devs who broke the class does even have the backbone to make a single statement. Cowardice in its purest form.

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Old 03-25-2010, 01:29 PM   #168
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Ebarel wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I will bite.  Here is a raid parse (incomplete) from a couple nights ago - this is an example.  I believe we had 2.5 groups in this raid as a result the parse is a fair bit low but reasonably scaled to the players.  The differences I see from a typical parse is our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse, and our dirges are usually above me in the parse.  He was probably resing folks this fight, the conjy might have died.  Not sure.  What is startling is the lock is doing 14% of the damage and I am doing 7%.  Where I used to produce 80% of the damage of a wizard or lock, I am now effectively doing 50%.  I want to point out where a lot of illusionists are purposely NOT complaining about the dps nerf, I am.  I would like to see my scale come back to 80% of T1 dps where we were.  In addition I would like to see one more power proc added back to my mythical.  Everything goes along fine until you are completely power drained - then its very difficult to get everyone full again.  One more proc will not eliminate that pain, but would definitely help.  As for self-buff TC?  It seems to be the fair thing to do. 

My asks from SOE (which will go ignored because SOE and god hate illusionists)

-Add one more power proc back to our mythical

-Put us back to 80% of T1 dps

-Either allow us to put TC on ourselves, or take away the ability to self-buff BC/UT.

Wyvernlord Tuluun: DAMAGE --- 27924164 over 02:50 --- 164260

(14%) Lock: 24560

(12%) Wizard: 20705

(11%) Conjy: 18335

(10%) SK: 17352

(9%) Brig: 14809

(7%) Brig: 12611

(7%) Me (illy): 12281

(6%) Coercer: 10275

(5%) Dirge: 8690

(5%) Pally: 8531

(5%) Troub: 8496

 

yeah, it is so great that even tanks easily outparse you. scouts do it all the time in our raids (btw, your bards suck

still there is a lot of potential from gear for the wiz and you dont even have an elementalist. 30-50k is probably what T1 should do in SF and from what i can see from encounters requiring dps to beat them that is the least they should do. Due to the mechanics i cant see illusionists at half those numbers, all scouts, all other mages most tanks parsing better and also having lots of "utility" is just plain annoying. i wonder how many healer classes will parse better in 6 months.

And it is really annoying that none of the devs who broke the class does even have the backbone to make a single statement. Cowardice in its purest form.

My dps has jumped up since this post.  I am the mage with the most red adornment items (I had a bit of DKP to spend).  I did squeeze into the top 5 ZW last night.  I had some solid 17-20k parses when I could melee, but then the T1 mages were doing 30k+.  It will only be a very short time before the rest of the raid catchs up to my gear.   It will be nice while it lasts... which wont be long.

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Old 03-28-2010, 09:34 AM   #169
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I will bite.  Here is a raid parse (incomplete) from a couple nights ago - this is an example.  I believe we had 2.5 groups in this raid as a result the parse is a fair bit low but reasonably scaled to the players.  The differences I see from a typical parse is our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse, and our dirges are usually above me in the parse.  He was probably resing folks this fight, the conjy might have died.  Not sure.  What is startling is the lock is doing 14% of the damage and I am doing 7%.  Where I used to produce 80% of the damage of a wizard or lock, I am now effectively doing 50%.  I want to point out where a lot of illusionists are purposely NOT complaining about the dps nerf, I am.  I would like to see my scale come back to 80% of T1 dps where we were.  In addition I would like to see one more power proc added back to my mythical.  Everything goes along fine until you are completely power drained - then its very difficult to get everyone full again.  One more proc will not eliminate that pain, but would definitely help.  As for self-buff TC?  It seems to be the fair thing to do. 

My asks from SOE (which will go ignored because SOE and god hate illusionists)

-Add one more power proc back to our mythical

-Put us back to 80% of T1 dps

-Either allow us to put TC on ourselves, or take away the ability to self-buff BC/UT.

Wyvernlord Tuluun: DAMAGE --- 27924164 over 02:50 --- 164260

(14%) Lock: 24560

(12%) Wizard: 20705

(11%) Conjy: 18335

(10%) SK: 17352

(9%) Brig: 14809

(7%) Brig: 12611

(7%) Me (illy): 12281

(6%) Coercer: 10275

(5%) Dirge: 8690

(5%) Pally: 8531

(5%) Troub: 8496

 

Considering what each class brings to a raid / group.. i would expect a chanter to parse slightly behind a rogue and just ahead of a bard.   Looks like that's what's happening.   Only outlier in this parse is the SK. 

However, I do think they should change the base crit multiplier back to 1.3 for all... or increase chanter/bard/crusaders up to 1.5 with everyone else.   Would close the gap some but still allow dps classes to outparse buff classes SMILEY

If you only care about dps ... roll a dpser.   then join a raid guild and take turns sitting out with the other dps'ers while someone has to play their undergeared alt chanter to fill all the vacated chanter spots.   and then big gratz on slowing your guild's progression.

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Old 03-28-2010, 08:20 PM   #170
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[email protected] wrote:

Considering what each class brings to a raid / group.. i would expect a chanter to parse slightly behind a rogue and just ahead of a bard.   Looks like that's what's happening.   Only outlier in this parse is the SK. 

However, I do think they should change the base crit multiplier back to 1.3 for all... or increase chanter/bard/crusaders up to 1.5 with everyone else.   Would close the gap some but still allow dps classes to outparse buff classes

If you only care about dps ... roll a dpser.   then join a raid guild and take turns sitting out with the other dps'ers while someone has to play their undergeared alt chanter to fill all the vacated chanter spots.   and then big gratz on slowing your guild's progression.

Ok, I respond to this one. Right now Coercers are not as bad as they were before the "Big Fix". However we did take a pretty good hit this last round. I have been in the same raiding guild for over 3 years now. Nearly all of my EQ2 friends are in that guild. But I am not, and I'll repeat, I am not going to continue to play my Coercer if we get nerfed back to where we were a year and a half ago. I won't even care if my guild's progression goes of zero until they can find someone who doesn't mind making a screwed up class thier main. I lost a lot of Coercer friends on the huge nerf we took about six months before the "big fix". lf they let our class go to crap again you'll see a bunch more quit. Me, I won't quit EQ2 but I will stop playing my Coercer again and go back to my Troub, and at that point my Coercer will not be available to anyone, including my guild. The only reason we got fixed last time is because Coercers became so rare that many of the raiding guilds started complaining about the problem, and that is the only reason why Coercers got fixed. Two years of Coercrers complaining got us no where. Bottom line is, I don't care how it effects my guild if my class is so screwed up that I hate the idea of even logging them in anymore. Why would I even play EQ2 under those conditions? Are we at that point yet? No. We are still a long ways away from how screwed up we were before. But now many of us just aren't willing to wait as long as we did last time to get fixed.

I have always wondered if anyone at SoE even knows how to play an enchanter. I have a hard time believing that they do. Every since LU13 (how many years ago was that?) the job of Enchanter has been confusing and very haphazzard. They give us spells like Snap Thought and decide shortly that oh, to powerful a spell so we will make all raid mobs immune. Charm? To powerful so raid mobs immune. Stun? To powerful so raid mobs immune. Root? To powerful so raid mobs are immune. We are a shadow of the class we started out as and still today SoE has no clue how they want to treat Enchanters and no clue which direction our future will be.

So if I quit playing my Coercer and slow your progression, Oh welll. Why don't you roll a chanter and play it then.  Not part time, but as your main so that you are pretty well stuck to always playing that class as the long term players of the enchanters stop playing them. Hope you enjoy a bunch of part time enchanters who only leveled them to have them but never really got into playing them.

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Old 03-29-2010, 02:56 PM   #171
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I will bite.  Here is a raid parse (incomplete) from a couple nights ago - this is an example.  I believe we had 2.5 groups in this raid as a result the parse is a fair bit low but reasonably scaled to the players.  The differences I see from a typical parse is our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse, and our dirges are usually above me in the parse.  He was probably resing folks this fight, the conjy might have died.  Not sure.  What is startling is the lock is doing 14% of the damage and I am doing 7%.  Where I used to produce 80% of the damage of a wizard or lock, I am now effectively doing 50%.  I want to point out where a lot of illusionists are purposely NOT complaining about the dps nerf, I am.  I would like to see my scale come back to 80% of T1 dps where we were.  In addition I would like to see one more power proc added back to my mythical.  Everything goes along fine until you are completely power drained - then its very difficult to get everyone full again.  One more proc will not eliminate that pain, but would definitely help.  As for self-buff TC?  It seems to be the fair thing to do. 

My asks from SOE (which will go ignored because SOE and god hate illusionists)

-Add one more power proc back to our mythical

-Put us back to 80% of T1 dps

-Either allow us to put TC on ourselves, or take away the ability to self-buff BC/UT.

Wyvernlord Tuluun: DAMAGE --- 27924164 over 02:50 --- 164260

(14%) Lock: 24560

(12%) Wizard: 20705

(11%) Conjy: 18335

(10%) SK: 17352

(9%) Brig: 14809

(7%) Brig: 12611

(7%) Me (illy): 12281

(6%) Coercer: 10275

(5%) Dirge: 8690

(5%) Pally: 8531

(5%) Troub: 8496

 

Considering what each class brings to a raid / group.. i would expect a chanter to parse slightly behind a rogue and just ahead of a bard.   Looks like that's what's happening.   Only outlier in this parse is the SK. 

However, I do think they should change the base crit multiplier back to 1.3 for all... or increase chanter/bard/crusaders up to 1.5 with everyone else.   Would close the gap some but still allow dps classes to outparse buff classes

If you only care about dps ... roll a dpser.   then join a raid guild and take turns sitting out with the other dps'ers while someone has to play their undergeared alt chanter to fill all the vacated chanter spots.   and then big gratz on slowing your guild's progression.

The parse was from early in SF, things have changed.  The sk is now parsing around 35K normally in raid.  I am running about 20+k - still 50% less than T1 dps which is running 40K+. Bards, pallys, zerker, mystics and furys etc are all hovering at the 20k mark now.  I regularly get beat by our mystic who can solo heal a group and parse 25K. 

Anyway, I have no idea why Permafrost.Enoax is trolling a enchanter thread since he has been playing an OP class as his main for many years - a Templar.  I really could care less about his commentary on the enchanter classes since he only has a $hitty coercer but has never played it in any real capacity.   Meanwhile, gtf off of this thread.  kthxbye.

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Old 03-29-2010, 11:11 PM   #172
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Didn't realize that having a templar in addition to my necromancer and coercer made me ineligible to post in the general mage discussion forum in a thread that is essentially about  class balance.  I also didn't realize that disagreeing with someone in a thread = trolling.   

my bad

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Old 03-30-2010, 01:18 AM   #173
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[email protected] wrote:

Didn't realize that having a templar in addition to my necromancer and coercer made me ineligible to post in the general mage discussion forum in a thread that is essentially about  class balance.  I also didn't realize that disagreeing with someone in a thread = trolling.   

my bad

RE: Ineligible to post to the mage forum, incorrect.  Feel free - post away as if you needed permission anyway.  But obviously you were looking to troll if you are posting to an ENCHANTER thread (enchanter clearly spelled out in the title, in case you missed it) soley to disagree with majority of us.  Your necro and coercer are what - level 80?  81 perhaps?  I am betting you don't have a max level mage you have not seriously played a mage in SF (if at all), so yeah, you are pretty knee deep in troll factor.   Here is a link to the Templar forums in case you get lost on enchanter threads again: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...w.m?forum_id=83  Its all pretty quiet over there since they love being OP.

Permafrost.Enoax aside, updating parses as people are getting better and better gear.  The freshest is from TSO late last week as we are running in off-raid nights to re-gear a handful of people. Wizard is low because of a bad death night.  The SK's ZW is usually right behind or with the "real" mages.  The gap is widening between T1 mages and chanters.  Will update with a SF parse before the week is out.

TSO on "a void renderer"

Conj | 76,035

War | 45,772

SK | 35,192

Me (illy) | 32,121

Troub | 24,452

Wizard | 23,205

Fury | 19,327

Pally | 18,850

coercer | 13,331

assassin |13,059

Pre-Anashti multimob "exalted Sentinel"

Warlock | 73,221

Conjy | 55,3408

SK | 42,545

Fury | 26,593

Wizard  25,404

Illy (me) | 25,313

Pally | 20,178

.

Repost from Flames thread of Surreal in SF:

Originally Posted by E.T.I.
Lock | 53197[Removed for Content] | 48006Brig | 46049Wiz | 42116Lock | 41331Swash | 39304Troub | 33982Coerc | 33674Zerk | 24955Dirge | 24753SK | 24730Coerc | 23713Inq | 22467Inq | 21802Illu | 21732Illu | 20502Dirge | 19940Mystic | 19621Coerc | 15570Inq | 14899Troub | 7715Defiler | 4984Templar | 393Warden | 364
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Old 03-30-2010, 02:45 AM   #174
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Ok, went back and re-read all the posts and the general non enchanters believe that enchanters big complaint is that we don't hit the top of the parse anymore. Ok, that's part of it. But only a part. Does it bother me that I'm now being beat by most of the fighter classes also? And Furies? Actually yes it somewhat chaps my rear end when a healer beats me.

But what really irritates me? Pure Awe, Mesmerize, Charm, Amnesia, Root, Perplexity, Mindbend and Snap Thought completely useless in a raid. Medusa Gaze, Silence, and Shock Wave only are able to use the damage portion of these spells in raid, the other benefits of these spells are useless vs Epic mobs. I use the term useless for any spell that has no effect on Epic mobs or is reduced to less then 10% of its use compared to a heroic mob. All of the spells in the first group aren't even on my hot bars anymore. For you non-chanters, how many of your ca's or spells are useless in a raid environment? Doubt is even close to a Chanter's.

Illys got shafted even more since most of their class defining spells are as useless of the Coercers plus their mana regen is now also sub-par. Sorry brethern enchanters, but you took a big shot then we did.

I am not going to go back to where we were two years ago where everyone out dps's us except defilers. If SoE screws my Coercer again so bad that I don't even want to log on to him, then that will be the day I finally retire him completely. I'll strip him of his gear and turn him into tradeskiller only toon. I'm not going to beg for two and a half years again for them to fix us like I did last time.Actually I went from begging to insulting them due to the frustration of nothing ever being fixed, only more and more nerfs with most updates.

And yes I find it funny to watch someone in 80-89 doing the "LF Chanter" for an hour or so and not getting one. And if they think it's bad now, just wait. From what I've seen it's only going to get worse. I've also notice that many of the raiding guilds on Permafrost are looking for and for some, have been looking for one or two enchanters. The search doesn't seem to be working out too well for them.

If SoE is going to take us back to where we where two years ago, I'd rather they just put us out of our misery, give our mana regen (give it to the troubs),dps buff (give it to the dirges) and hate transfer (the brigands and assassins could have that one) to some other classes and just get rid of the enchanters from the game. Would rather see that then slow death by nerf.

So that is some of my reasons why I'd like to see SoE answer the question "What are the plans for the enchanter classes?" but from years of experience I also realize that will never happen.

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Old 03-30-2010, 05:38 AM   #175
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A parse from a TSO zone and the 650k ZW dps from Surreal's 1:45 min fight (that no one else has even come close to touching THAT dps) might not be true representation of the real situation.

And Staven I agree.    Coercers used to be the suck and needed fixed.   However, they are in no danger of that happening again this expansion. 

From our ZW Labs (minus ... perah'celsis/Xilaxis) our coercer parsed 5th and 9th (80% of the dps of the top sorc), our illusionists 7th and 8th.   The dps scouts/mages parsed above them, the monk and fury parsed with them, the bards parsed just behind them.   Our raid wide dps is a bit low mostly because we dont have a brig and our 2nd troub didn't have his myth/enervated.

But since I only have a level 85 mage I can't interpret raid dps parses. so interpret for yourself. 

There is nothing wrong with a healer being able to put out good dps numbers on fights were little/no healing is needed.

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Old 03-30-2010, 10:53 AM   #176
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[email protected] wrote:

A parse from a TSO zone and the 650k ZW dps from Surreal's 1:45 min fight (that no one else has even come close to touching THAT dps) might not be true representation of the real situation.

And Staven I agree.    Coercers used to be the suck and needed fixed.   However, they are in no danger of that happening again this expansion. 

From our ZW Labs (minus ... perah'celsis/Xilaxis) our coercer parsed 5th and 9th (80% of the dps of the top sorc), our illusionists 7th and 8th.   The dps scouts/mages parsed above them, the monk and fury parsed with them, the bards parsed just behind them.   Our raid wide dps is a bit low mostly because we dont have a brig and our 2nd troub didn't have his myth/enervated.

But since I only have a level 85 mage I can't interpret raid dps parses. so interpret for yourself. 

There is nothing wrong with a healer being able to put out good dps numbers on fights were little/no healing is needed.

Yeah, noting wrong with a healer being able to reach just behind bard level DPS.

Beating classes deisgned to do damage alongside their utility? Its wrong.

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Old 03-30-2010, 12:12 PM   #177
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[email protected] wrote:

A parse from a TSO zone and the 650k ZW dps from Surreal's 1:45 min fight (that no one else has even come close to touching THAT dps) might not be true representation of the real situation.

And Staven I agree.    Coercers used to be the suck and needed fixed.   However, they are in no danger of that happening again this expansion. 

From our ZW Labs (minus ... perah'celsis/Xilaxis) our coercer parsed 5th and 9th (80% of the dps of the top sorc), our illusionists 7th and 8th.   The dps scouts/mages parsed above them, the monk and fury parsed with them, the bards parsed just behind them.   Our raid wide dps is a bit low mostly because we dont have a brig and our 2nd troub didn't have his myth/enervated.

But since I only have a level 85 mage I can't interpret raid dps parses. so interpret for yourself. 

There is nothing wrong with a healer being able to put out good dps numbers on fights were little/no healing is needed.

Permafrost.Enoax, The ability to read a parse does not grant you the innate ability to understand a class.  From your allegory on Cataclysm's parse break down, so your T1 mage did 10k, and your coercer did 8k?  Your percentages are pretty meaningless without context.  Since you obviously love hanging out on enchanter threads, go read this and get yourself educated. 

Regarding TSO/Surreal's parses:  my guess is Surreal's illys DONT SUCK and they are still at TSO parse level.  You are right, two-grouping TSO is probably not a fair assessment however the dps ratios tend to remain fairly static whether you are in SF or TSO. 

If you want to pick a fight with me personally (which I think is the case since you originally replied to my posting, and historically is topic you love to berate me over...), you know the name of all my toons.  Send me an in-game tell.  Meanwhile, let me serve you up a hot, steaming cup of s.t.f.u.  Go spend your time posting on the Templar forums proclaiming your superiority over all things EQ2.

Edit: had more to say.

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Old 03-30-2010, 05:33 PM   #178
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Oh I'm sure Surreal has the best illusionists WW.... doesn't change the fact that it was a 650k parse (only about twice the dps of most average guilds) of a < 2 min fight that is trivial.   Not to mention when it was posted on flames it was followed by about 10 pages of disbelieve, accusations about doctoring parses, accusations of cheating etc.  I have no opinion either way whether it is a true parse... It is probably true Sureal is beast.  Doesn't change the fact that a super inflated  <2 min parse of 650k might not be the best parse to champion your cause with.  

I read the 2 pages of illusionist wish list.   It pales in comparision to the 100's of pages of complains/ wishes/ calls for fixes in the summoner forums of the past 2.5 years.  

I purposely left out the numbers from our parses to avoid this changing into a our guild is better than your guild thread.  Whether our ZW is 400k or 200k doesn't change the fact that dps/utility classes are parsing 70-80% of the 'T1 dps' classes.  Seems about right... maybe the sky isn't falling.

But I'll leave you alone in your cry thread and feel free chase out anyone else that disagrees with you.   I don't need to raid on a 90 illusionist to understand that class balance might actually improve the longevity and playability of this game.  It was clearly me being hostile to you lol.

PS:  I dont think class balance has been achieved.  There are still OP classes, it's just that chanters are not one of them. 

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Old 03-30-2010, 06:08 PM   #179
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[email protected] wrote:

Oh I'm sure Surreal has the best illusionists WW.... doesn't change the fact that it was a 650k parse (only about twice the dps of most average guilds) of a < 2 min fight that is trivial.   Not to mention when it was posted on flames it was followed by about 10 pages of disbelieve, accusations about doctoring parses, accusations of cheating etc.  I have no opinion either way whether it is a true parse... It is probably true Sureal is beast.  Doesn't change the fact that a super inflated  <2 min parse of 650k might not be the best parse to champion your cause with.  

I read the 2 pages of illusionist wish list.   It pales in comparision to the 100's of pages of complains/ wishes/ calls for fixes in the summoner forums of the past 2.5 years.  

I purposely left out the numbers from our parses to avoid this changing into a our guild is better than your guild thread.  Whether our ZW is 400k or 200k doesn't change the fact that dps/utility classes are parsing 70-80% of the 'T1 dps' classes.  Seems about right... maybe the sky isn't falling.

But I'll leave you alone in your cry thread and feel free chase out anyone else that disagrees with you.   I don't need to raid on a 90 illusionist to understand that class balance might actually improve the longevity and playability of this game.  It was clearly me being hostile to you lol.

PS:  I dont think class balance has been achieved.  There are still OP classes, it's just that chanters are not one of them. 

Surreal parse was in with other parses including previous ones on this thread.  Its not to champion with, its just another datapoint.  But read into it whatever you wish.

I still do not see how all your chanters are parsing 80% of T1 DPS?  you state:

From our ZW Labs (minus ... perah'celsis/Xilaxis) our coercer parsed 5th and 9th (80% of the dps of the top sorc), our illusionists 7th and 8th. 

So you have Yiix (coercer) parsing 80% at 5th place, then the rest of your chanters at 7th 8th and 9th place?  How are they possibly cutting it at 80% of "T1"?   I don't think you either don't know how to do percentages, or there is something flawed with your data/facts.  Most of the guilds I am seeing have their enchanters on average at 50% or lower.  So, Cataclysm must be super-special to be able to warp dps percentages like that.

Go champion your "everything is perfectly balanced" on some other thread. 

As for my perception of you being hostile to me, yeah.  You are dead on.  You haven't spoken to me in over a month.  I find it appalling that your feeble attempt at communication is on a PUBLIC forum on an enchanter thread.  Really?  I have the distinct impression that your straw man arguments is merely to reduce the boredom out of your day.  Cutting me to watch me bleed is highly entertaining to you, but is only going to make me resentful.

Edit: formatting

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Old 03-30-2010, 06:37 PM   #180
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That's why i stated 80% in regards to the top chanter parse and 70-80% when i referred to all 4 as a group.

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