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Old 02-25-2010, 04:28 PM   #121
Andu

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Xalmat wrote:

Anduri wrote:

Xalmat wrote:

I think you all need to stop your belly aching.

I cannot believe you actually wrote this. We have collectively read and understood the plight of Summoners for the past 18 months. I have even posted championing your cause. You yourself have set out the whine stall on a fairly regular basis.

Only a few weeks into an expansion where Conjurors have been buffed finally and now you trot this out. I'd have expected you to have a little empathy.

Oh well, you get to read all this stuff now instead of write it.

Forgive me, but I am unsympathetic. The simple fact is, bards and enchanters will get group and raid spots for simply being bards and enchanters, and occupy 1/3 of the raid in the process.

Summoners have to compete for DPS spots, which are limited. And we have to work our keysters off to justify our raid spot, lest we be replaced by Sorcerers, Predators, or Rogues who can (and often do) outparse us.

And to anyone that thinks they can switch from an enchanter to a sorcerer and get in a new raid guild easily, good luck with that. Sorcerer spots in raid guilds rarely open up.

I see you missed the point.

I don't want the situation where we get 4 slots in raids simply because we are Enchanters. Like I said in my first post, we get those slots for doing the things we don't want to be doing, i.e. buffing. Frankly, buffing as an Enchanter blows, it takes ages to do and noone ever stays still long enough for you to do it.

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards. The class a lot of imbeciles play because the general expectation of them is so low. As long as they show up, throw on the buffs and don't screw up scripts you can go far as a bard. Don't get me wrong, a good bard is a rare and glorious thing and when I come across one it makes me smile. They're rare as hens teeth though and a luxury most guilds have to stumble along without.

Why is that? Because good players, players who want to make a difference, generally want to play an active character where you can see the contribution they are making. Buffbot classes just cannot do that. So you do niot get many good players on bards. Fact of life.

Hence these changes suck, you complain about having to compete for DPS spots and completely miss that fact that this is what Enchanters want to be doing to. That or something equally active, be it crowd control or whatever.

Frankly, I'll give you half my buffs, you give me the equivalent DPS, then I'll outplay you and take your raid spot. Deal?

I'd certainly like to have the chance to try.

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Old 02-25-2010, 04:53 PM   #122
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Anduri wrote:

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards.

But, you are the mage equivalent of bards. Always have been.

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Old 02-25-2010, 06:43 PM   #123
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Xalmat wrote:

Anduri wrote:

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards.

But, you are the mage equivalent of bards. Always have been.

Are you mad because your chanters used to outparse you?

When did enchanters become "mage equivalent of bards?"  Count how many buffs bards have and then compare to chanter buffs.   Oh, look at the AAs first, it's a good start.  A guild without a dirge simply cannot raid, without chanters, no problem, except for cutting edge contents.

Even for normal group instances, every group has a dirge pretty much, but chanters are not required.  At this stage of new SF expansion, groups often don't want chanters since they need 2 healers and 2 DPS, then a dirge and tank.

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Old 02-25-2010, 06:53 PM   #124
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Xalmat wrote:

Anduri wrote:

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards.

But, you are the mage equivalent of bards. Always have been.

Look how many class non AA buffs chanters have. Then look how many bards have. Now look how many CC abilities chanters have. And look at how many bards have. See what I am getting at here? Pre AA, or maybe just pre EoF things looked very different. People that rolled a chanter, not just to get a raid spot but because it seamed like a interesting class at the time are slowly having all the reasons they choose chanter taken away from them, ie CC, Power regen, DPS,.

If chanters are the equivalent of bards then why do bards have way more powerful buffs? Answer is because they are not the equivalent of bards and were never meant to be. SoE made 24 classes, not 22 + two bard alternatives.

Sorry but the chanter = mage bard argument is getting very old now and is still completely wrong. Would be great is SoE could answer one of the many posts (even on beta forums) to either tell their plan for chanters or just confirm they are now the bards of mages so people that want to play buffers can rest easy they now have a well balanced class and people that don't want to play buffers can choose something else to play.

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Old 02-25-2010, 07:02 PM   #125
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Seriously  as a chanter you expect to DPS like a Sorc? 

Scout  Arch type      Mage Arch type

Predator                     SorcererRogue                         SummonerBard                           Enchanter

They are supposed to scale with DPS / Utility more dps then less utility and visa vers but that is not always the case.  The extreme dps boost to Enchanters was to much but then again crowd control is no longer needed.  

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Old 02-25-2010, 08:14 PM   #126
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Seriously  as a chanter you expect to DPS like a Sorc?

Scout  Arch type      Mage Arch type

Predator                     SorcererRogue                         SummonerBard                           Enchanter

They are supposed to scale with DPS / Utility more dps then less utility and visa vers but that is not always the case.  The extreme dps boost to Enchanters was to much but then again crowd control is no longer needed.

Who said anything about doing dps like a Sorc? We never were doing Sorc or rogue dps if the person behind the toon knew what they were doing and gear was relatively equal.

imo it should be something like this:

pure dps - Pred /Sorc

debuffs + dps  - Rogue

dubuffs + Utility + dps  - Summoner

utility + debuffs + regen + dps - Bard

CC + regen + utility + dps- Chanter

So this way pred/sorc do the most dps but bring very little debuffs or utility.

Rouge does good dps but bring top debuffs.

Summoner brings average utility and debuffs and good dps.

Bard brings top utility, good debuffs and low regen and dps.

Chanters bring top CC, good regen, average utility, low dps and no debuffs.

Ofc all classes will have a bit of everything but these are their main roles and their abilities and dps capabilities should scale accordantly.

Sadly the game doesn't work this way and classes (not only chanters) have got mixed up and roles have changed over the years. With CC almost completely gone chanters were given more dps to compensate. So chanter should now be good regen, good dps, average utility and no CC. Basically putting them in the same dps range as summoners, maybe a bit under depending on how good the SF summoner utility is. Not between the healers and bards.

But now it looks like chanters are average regen, average utility, low dps, no debuffs and top CC (even though it's no longer needed).

That is just my opinion of how I think it should work. So yes DPS / Utility should scale between classes but when SoE try to balance something they always seam to go from one extreme to another.

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Old 02-26-2010, 12:33 AM   #127
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Xalmat wrote:

Anduri wrote:

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards.

But, you are the mage equivalent of bards. Always have been.

Negative.  Bards were always meant to be buffbots, even from EQ1.  Enchanters from EQ1 and from early EQ2 were meant as crowd control and power management, not only keeping group power up but draining power from mobs.  This was actually a very important function at the start of the game, as was crowd control.

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Old 02-26-2010, 10:12 AM   #128
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Xalmat wrote:

Anduri wrote:

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards.

But, you are the mage equivalent of bards. Always have been.

Well that just displays your ignorance on this subject. If I looked at things from this perspective then I can understand what you are saying but this has never ever been the case.

Old school Enchanters, of which I am one, generally rolled their characters to be the masters of combat control and to dictate the way fights went, in a similar way to EQ1 enchanters. In a world full of heroic ^^^ mobs and relatively weak gear, where immunity to crowd control was none existant, then it was passably useful.

In the early game, buffing from Enchanters other than power reneration was virtually none-existant. You can see that from examining our spells and ignoring AA's, the only buff spells we have are the group buffs shared with all other mages, and the single target haste/dps buff. Even the KoS tree has no buffs, instead it enhanced our DPS.

Newer Enchanters rolled their characters to be group support through their AA lines while doing respectible and competitive DPS. They did this because SOE designed the class this way when they moved strongly against the crowd control role around LU13. There are posts from Lockeye specifically saying this, and how he wanted to incorporate more crowd control in the game but the overall design decision was to drastically limit it. He cited this recently as one of the reasons he quit as he was not happy taking the flak from Enchanters for this change in direction.

This was reinforced by Aeralik when he removed all power draining from the game and replaced it with .... yup DPS.

So with all that in mind, I can find not one shred of evidence to suggest we were ever meant to be "mage bards".

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Old 02-26-2010, 12:07 PM   #129
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Anduri wrote:

Xalmat wrote:

Anduri wrote:

I don't want this class to become the equivalent of bards.

But, you are the mage equivalent of bards. Always have been.

Well that just displays your ignorance on this subject. If I looked at things from this perspective then I can understand what you are saying but this has never ever been the case.

Old school Enchanters, of which I am one, generally rolled their characters to be the masters of combat control and to dictate the way fights went, in a similar way to EQ1 enchanters. In a world full of heroic ^^^ mobs and relatively weak gear, where immunity to crowd control was none existant, then it was passably useful.

In the early game, buffing from Enchanters other than power reneration was virtually none-existant. You can see that from examining our spells and ignoring AA's, the only buff spells we have are the group buffs shared with all other mages, and the single target haste/dps buff. Even the KoS tree has no buffs, instead it enhanced our DPS.

Newer Enchanters rolled their characters to be group support through their AA lines while doing respectible and competitive DPS. They did this because SOE designed the class this way when they moved strongly against the crowd control role around LU13. There are posts from Lockeye specifically saying this, and how he wanted to incorporate more crowd control in the game but the overall design decision was to drastically limit it. He cited this recently as one of the reasons he quit as he was not happy taking the flak from Enchanters for this change in direction.

This was reinforced by Aeralik when he removed all power draining from the game and replaced it with .... yup DPS.

So with all that in mind, I can find not one shred of evidence to suggest we were ever meant to be "mage bards".

The only evidence you will find on such will be in game.  Xalmat is wrong...not a thing that often happens, but it has happened here.  However she is only wrong on the second statement; "Always have been.".

The game has been modded...morphed into an environment where DPS is king and CC is needed, but only very rarely and only in heroic instances to combat the heavy handed encounter scripting.

The devs, love it or hate it, have spoken.  DPS > CC.

When the game was new I used to play Coercer.  It rocked beyond belief.  CC was soooooooo loved by groups.  Now if you CC you are just slowing everyone else's DPS.

Chanters are the new Mage bards...and have been ever since Time Compression, Coercive Healing, Illusionary Arm...they are now buffers.

I don't like it either...of course I don't like what was done to my Brigand class either.

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Old 02-26-2010, 01:28 PM   #130
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I always thought that all the classes had some purpose. not all of them had the purpose of being on a successful raid team. summoners being the kings of solo play shouldn't be valuable to a raid force at all. most brawlers will have trouble getting a spot, but they can farm rare shinies and make a ton of plat.  so now, summoners actually have some utility, they are very close to sorc dps, and they are still the gods of named soloing.  sounds like someone is about to cross the ole plate and get the bat. xalmat, I would never wish a nerfing on anyone, but with your attitude, I really think you deserve it. I would trade my buffs for your dps. with 6 illies in my guild, you can bet I earned my spot. they are down to 2 now btw.

as it stands right now, I'm seeing assassin/ranger owning the parses. sorcs, summoners, SK, and brigs seem to bounce around for  a distant 3-7. guard, dirge, brawler, are next with coercer in there somewhere. next is inq, then illy/troub and other healers. we don't have a raiding fury. I'm sure a good fury would be up there around the top 5ish. by the logic on this page, they must be no fun at all to play because they don't get many raid spots.

so it's ok for summoners to be possibly the best solo class, and t1 dps, but illies have too much utility so they should be 18th of 24 classes for dps and not able to solo their way out of a paper sack. wait, that sounds a LOT like the worst class in the game(troub) the only difference is they get chain armor and usually take more than 2 hits from trash mobs to die. btw, when you talk about the crappy classes, don't say bard. say troub. we had dirges parsing 11-13k in TSO.

it never fails to amaze me after all these years of the devs ignoring the players that not one can take 5 minutes to post anything in response to this thread. tell us you are looking at it, you don't care, shut up, illies are supposed to suck, whatever....  don't just make us argueably the new worst class in the game with no explanation or even comments.

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Old 02-26-2010, 04:40 PM   #131
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http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...ameinfo/classes

"Illusionists employ subtlety and distraction to impose their will upon the enemy.  Using their mental acuity to confuse, misdirect and subdue their opponents, Illusionists can bring order to an otherwise chaotic environment while bestowing beneficial enhancements upon their allies."

The last part is what you call being a "buff bot", (I call it a vital part of the game, but eh to each his own).  The first part is crowd control and such.  I understand the frustrations over crowd control not being as useful, but the reason is because it allowed enchanters to solo heroic stuff.  However, I will say that stuns/stifles/interrupts are incredibly useful still.  It can mean the difference between a group/raid ending AoE or not.  In any event, my point is that nowhere does the description of the illusionist class mention damage.

"The Coercer is capable of subduing enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror.  Master of domination, Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature to do their bidding."

Again, no mention of damage.

"The Wizard can unleash the purest forms of destruction by harnessing the arcane magic of fire and ice.  Channeling the full force of these elements into deadly focus, no other type of mage is able to match the Wizard’s ability to inflict such great devastation upon a single target."

Every single sentence references massive damage.

"Warlocks are master of death and decay who channel the forces of poison and disease, bringing an untimely end to their enemies.  By invoking these dark powers and unleashing destruction all around them, Warlocks can deal devastating damage against multiple opponents at once."

Again, talk of poision and disease, destruction, and devastating damage in every phrase.

"Though possessing many potent abilities, the greatest weapons in the Conjuror’s arsenal are the powerful elemental minions summoned forth to do their bidding.  These dutiful servants obey their master’s every command, whether ordered to stand guard or launch attacks against the Conjuror’s foes."

No talk of massive damage, but it references their pets, standing guard and launching attacks.

"The Necromancer is the unholy master of death and decay.  Dominating the unliving, necromancers summon forth undead servants that attack their opponents without fear or hesitation.  Necromancers employ dark arcane magic that weakens the enemy as they drain away its life force."

Servants that attack their opponents, dark magic that weakens and drains life away.

Obviously these two sentence blurbs can't possibly sum up an entire class in a few short sentences.  But the point is that they mention the heart of a class.  When a player completely new to the game is interested, and looking at what they want to play, they see these.  Tell me whythey would look at the Illusionist class and see "ooh, I'll get to do as much DPS as a wizard!"

The original question posed by this thread is "what are the plans for the enchanter classes?"  I think you can at least look at this for answers.  Yes, many of you have mentioned lack of crowd control - and I agree to a certain extent.  But what everyone else is arguing about (DPS) isn't a core tennant of the class.

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Old 02-26-2010, 05:08 PM   #132
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Stubbswick wrote:

http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...ameinfo/classes

"Illusionists employ subtlety and distraction to impose their will upon the enemy.  Using their mental acuity to confuse, misdirect and subdue their opponents, Illusionists can bring order to an otherwise chaotic environment while bestowing beneficial enhancements upon their allies."

The last part is what you call being a "buff bot", (I call it a vital part of the game, but eh to each his own).  The first part is crowd control and such.  I understand the frustrations over crowd control not being as useful, but the reason is because it allowed enchanters to solo heroic stuff.  However, I will say that stuns/stifles/interrupts are incredibly useful still.  It can mean the difference between a group/raid ending AoE or not.  In any event, my point is that nowhere does the description of the illusionist class mention damage.

"The Coercer is capable of subduing enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror.  Master of domination, Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature to do their bidding."

Again, no mention of damage.

"The Wizard can unleash the purest forms of destruction by harnessing the arcane magic of fire and ice.  Channeling the full force of these elements into deadly focus, no other type of mage is able to match the Wizard’s ability to inflict such great devastation upon a single target."

Every single sentence references massive damage.

"Warlocks are master of death and decay who channel the forces of poison and disease, bringing an untimely end to their enemies.  By invoking these dark powers and unleashing destruction all around them, Warlocks can deal devastating damage against multiple opponents at once."

Again, talk of poision and disease, destruction, and devastating damage in every phrase.

"Though possessing many potent abilities, the greatest weapons in the Conjuror’s arsenal are the powerful elemental minions summoned forth to do their bidding.  These dutiful servants obey their master’s every command, whether ordered to stand guard or launch attacks against the Conjuror’s foes."

No talk of massive damage, but it references their pets, standing guard and launching attacks.

"The Necromancer is the unholy master of death and decay.  Dominating the unliving, necromancers summon forth undead servants that attack their opponents without fear or hesitation.  Necromancers employ dark arcane magic that weakens the enemy as they drain away its life force."

Servants that attack their opponents, dark magic that weakens and drains life away.

Obviously these two sentence blurbs can't possibly sum up an entire class in a few short sentences.  But the point is that they mention the heart of a class.  When a player completely new to the game is interested, and looking at what they want to play, they see these.  Tell me whythey would look at the Illusionist class and see "ooh, I'll get to do as much DPS as a wizard!"

The original question posed by this thread is "what are the plans for the enchanter classes?"  I think you can at least look at this for answers.  Yes, many of you have mentioned lack of crowd control - and I agree to a certain extent.  But what everyone else is arguing about (DPS) isn't a core tennant of the class.

well by that definition we should do exactly 0 damage. heck, why did they even give us nukes?

"Illusionists employ subtlety and distraction to impose their will upon the enemy.  Using their mental acuity to confuse, misdirect and subdue their opponents"

how much xp do I get for distracting the enemy? as an illusionist, I'm pretty sure I've never confused, distracted, or misdirected anything. also, I'm pretty sure about 99.9% of raid mobs are immune to our stun, root, stifle, and mezz. interrupt can get reflected onto my group but I don't know of any raid mob that it affects.

this is my new job: TC to mr. sorc. tandem to 4 people. IA to the troub(cause hes the only melee in my group). rampage, POM /g afk for 40 seconds while I wait for temps to refresh.  /afk

maybe I should just roll a dps class like a inq or a SK.

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Old 02-26-2010, 05:15 PM   #133
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dlove183 wrote:

I always thought that all the classes had some purpose. not all of them had the purpose of being on a successful raid team. summoners being the kings of solo play shouldn't be valuable to a raid force at all. most brawlers will have trouble getting a spot, but they can farm rare shinies and make a ton of plat.

Also, I find this very funny.

"not all of them had the purpose of being on a successful raid team" I think this is exactly the opposite of the whole purpose of balance discussions, such as the ones Xalmat has made.  You're essentially saying "F you SoE for making my class not fun to play in raids", while at the same time saying "F you Xalmat for wanting your class to have fun by playing in raids".

And I think you did an awesome job incredibly generalizing and trivializing two entire classes (the brawlers).  That's exactly why a ton of them were cheering when they changed it so instance shinies don't appear until you kill the first named, so they can't farm as easily anymore.  Because it means instead of a bunch of shiny farmers playing the class, you'll have real people who care about the class playing it.

I find it funny that you can be so incredibly negative towards other classes, yet will make absolutely no concessions about your own.

And finally, just an FYI - devs don't tend to respond well to "I'm going to cancel my account unless you answer me" stuff.  You'd probably get more constructive feedback by adding to the discussion at http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=461894

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Old 02-26-2010, 06:00 PM   #134
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Stubbswick wrote:

dlove183 wrote:

I always thought that all the classes had some purpose. not all of them had the purpose of being on a successful raid team. summoners being the kings of solo play shouldn't be valuable to a raid force at all. most brawlers will have trouble getting a spot, but they can farm rare shinies and make a ton of plat.

Also, I find this very funny.

"not all of them had the purpose of being on a successful raid team" I think this is exactly the opposite of the whole purpose of balance discussions, such as the ones Xalmat has made.  You're essentially saying "F you SoE for making my class not fun to play in raids", while at the same time saying "F you Xalmat for wanting your class to have fun by playing in raids".

And I think you did an awesome job incredibly generalizing and trivializing two entire classes (the brawlers).  That's exactly why a ton of them were cheering when they changed it so instance shinies don't appear until you kill the first named, so they can't farm as easily anymore.  Because it means instead of a bunch of shiny farmers playing the class, you'll have real people who care about the class playing it.

I find it funny that you can be so incredibly negative towards other classes, yet will make absolutely no concessions about your own.

And finally, just an FYI - devs don't tend to respond well to "I'm going to cancel my account unless you answer me" stuff.  You'd probably get more constructive feedback by adding to the discussion at http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=461894

I was simply using the flawed logic of some others that have posted in this thread that if a class is good at one thing, it shouldn't be good at something else. I think it's pretty dumb to rathole everyone's role. that is what you did to the enchanter classes but for some reason you are offended when I use your logic talking about other classes. so pick one. can I be utility and dps? can a summoner be a good soloer and DPS? can a brawler be the king of farming and still be a good tank? can SKs be a good raid tank and still be in the top5 on a parse?

if other classes can have more than one thing, why can't illusionists?

and I expect the devs to comment because there are a ton of posts in this thread not because I closed my account. what I find crazy is that so many other classes are in favor of chanters being at the bottom of the parse because you think we have it so easy. we get free raid spots and don't have to earn them. heck even avatar guilds will take a brand new scrub illy because our class is so OP.  guess what??? without us and the bards, all your numbers will suck.

thanks for playin

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Old 02-26-2010, 06:25 PM   #135
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Stubbswick wrote:

http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...ameinfo/classes

"Illusionists employ subtlety and distraction to impose their will upon the enemy.  Using their mental acuity to confuse, misdirect and subdue their opponents, Illusionists can bring order to an otherwise chaotic environment while bestowing beneficial enhancements upon their allies."

The last part is what you call being a "buff bot", (I call it a vital part of the game, but eh to each his own).  The first part is crowd control and such.  I understand the frustrations over crowd control not being as useful, but the reason is because it allowed enchanters to solo heroic stuff.  However, I will say that stuns/stifles/interrupts are incredibly useful still.  It can mean the difference between a group/raid ending AoE or not.  In any event, my point is that nowhere does the description of the illusionist class mention damage.

"The Coercer is capable of subduing enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror.  Master of domination, Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature to do their bidding."

Again, no mention of damage.

"The Wizard can unleash the purest forms of destruction by harnessing the arcane magic of fire and ice.  Channeling the full force of these elements into deadly focus, no other type of mage is able to match the Wizard’s ability to inflict such great devastation upon a single target."

Every single sentence references massive damage.

"Warlocks are master of death and decay who channel the forces of poison and disease, bringing an untimely end to their enemies.  By invoking these dark powers and unleashing destruction all around them, Warlocks can deal devastating damage against multiple opponents at once."

Again, talk of poision and disease, destruction, and devastating damage in every phrase.

"Though possessing many potent abilities, the greatest weapons in the Conjuror’s arsenal are the powerful elemental minions summoned forth to do their bidding.  These dutiful servants obey their master’s every command, whether ordered to stand guard or launch attacks against the Conjuror’s foes."

No talk of massive damage, but it references their pets, standing guard and launching attacks.

"The Necromancer is the unholy master of death and decay.  Dominating the unliving, necromancers summon forth undead servants that attack their opponents without fear or hesitation.  Necromancers employ dark arcane magic that weakens the enemy as they drain away its life force."

Servants that attack their opponents, dark magic that weakens and drains life away.

Obviously these two sentence blurbs can't possibly sum up an entire class in a few short sentences.  But the point is that they mention the heart of a class.  When a player completely new to the game is interested, and looking at what they want to play, they see these.  Tell me whythey would look at the Illusionist class and see "ooh, I'll get to do as much DPS as a wizard!"

The original question posed by this thread is "what are the plans for the enchanter classes?"  I think you can at least look at this for answers.  Yes, many of you have mentioned lack of crowd control - and I agree to a certain extent.  But what everyone else is arguing about (DPS) isn't a core tennant of the class.

The ones of us arguing for more dps (and I'm NOT one of them for the record) majorly fall into the category of wanting the dps to replace the loss of crowd control.  By those very definitions you posted you can see that we are meant to be first crowd control.  If I did zero, zilch, nada damage, but was required because of my crowd control I would be quite happy.  I never rolled my chanter to be a mini-wizard, and I'm probably one of the very few who absolutely detest the DPS craze.  The game has just devolved into a dps festival where that is really the only significant thing that wins a battle. 

Give me a more cerebral Everquest where the enchanter is required to "employ subtlety and distraction to impose their will upon the enemy.  Using their mental acuity to confuse, misdirect and subdue their opponents, Illusionists can bring order to an otherwise chaotic environment".

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Old 02-26-2010, 10:11 PM   #136
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Stubbswick wrote:

http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...ameinfo/classes

"Illusionists employ subtlety and distraction to impose their will upon the enemy.  Using their mental acuity to confuse, misdirect and subdue their opponents, Illusionists can bring order to an otherwise chaotic environment while bestowing beneficial enhancements upon their allies."

The last part is what you call being a "buff bot", (I call it a vital part of the game, but eh to each his own).  The first part is crowd control and such.  I understand the frustrations over crowd control not being as useful, but the reason is because it allowed enchanters to solo heroic stuff.  However, I will say that stuns/stifles/interrupts are incredibly useful still.  It can mean the difference between a group/raid ending AoE or not.  In any event, my point is that nowhere does the description of the illusionist class mention damage.

Again this is all pretty inaccurate.

Firstly, quoting the description of the Illusionist just serves to reinforce the point I made in my last post. I rolled my enchanter precisely to do the things described above, as did most Enchanters during the game launch through to probably KoS. Virtually none of the class that is implied by that description exists today though.

CC is not nerfed in this game because it allowed Enchanters to solo stuff, how does that statement stack up when you consider there are a handful of classes that solo the same stuff but faster. CC is nerfed in this game because encounters are defined sizes, whether ^^^'s or 4x ^ or whatever, you have to make a pretty stupid mistake to overpull to any great extent. It's also dead because the devs do not want CC in the game. As the mechanics dev from launch to EoF said "I left the 24 classes in as balanced of a state with an identity for what I could reasonably achieve with the time that I had available for them before I left and that also met the demands of other team members (such as Enchanter control limitations I had to work with).". The mechanics dev knew that Enchanters as a model were basically [Removed for Content] but the rest of the team were hell bent on preventing crowd control from ever being a part of the game. They stated at launch that they were going to break up the EQ1 holy trinity of Fighter, Cleric, Enchanter. With hindsight this was totally misguided, apart from removing a lot of play from the game and hamstringing their own ability to design encounters, they only replaced it with a new trinity of tank-healer-dps. 

You called it the heart of the class but it was ripped out of the game years ago, if it ever truly existed. And it was replaced with DPS. I can list a bunch of spells that have been modified from their original intent of control or power drains and replaced with straight damage. DPS - the thing Enchanters now do when they stop buffing.

Hence we're really not over the moon that they have now taken that away.

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Old 03-03-2010, 04:31 PM   #137
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I have a solution to this whole problem. they destroyed enchanters so summoners could have more raid spots. why not just delete the enchanter classes and give conjis a illy pet and necros a coercer pet. no one wants to play them now anyway. then, we could run 2 summoners in every group and everyone wins.

it does really suck that none of the dev's has enough in their sacks to post here. I know it would be tough to look your customer in the eyes and say "we screwed you" but comon. this is just text. grow a pair already.

my account has 17 days left. I wish I could get back my $39.99 that I wasted on this POS expansion. PUGs are already clearing some of the raid zones. BG is horribly unbalanced(from what I'm told). the solo quests are painfuly boring with very little xp and useless loot. if there is a storyline somewhere in this mess, I haven't found it. this is a HUGE SoE FAIL! I played through LU13 and even as bad as it was, I think this one is worse. as much as TSO brought to the game, this [Removed for Content] takes away.

...way to pilot the failboat sony. classic

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Old 03-04-2010, 05:27 PM   #138
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dlove183 wrote:

I have a solution to this whole problem. they destroyed enchanters so summoners could have more raid spots. why not just delete the enchanter classes and give conjis a illy pet and necros a coercer pet. no one wants to play them now anyway. then, we could run 2 summoners in every group and everyone wins.

it does really suck that none of the dev's has enough in their sacks to post here. I know it would be tough to look your customer in the eyes and say "we screwed you" but comon. this is just text. grow a pair already.

my account has 17 days left. I wish I could get back my $39.99 that I wasted on this POS expansion. PUGs are already clearing some of the raid zones. BG is horribly unbalanced(from what I'm told). the solo quests are painfuly boring with very little xp and useless loot. if there is a storyline somewhere in this mess, I haven't found it. this is a HUGE SoE FAIL! I played through LU13 and even as bad as it was, I think this one is worse. as much as TSO brought to the game, this [Removed for Content] takes away.

...way to pilot the failboat sony. classic

Good solution I wholeheartedly agree.   At least now we don't get aoe from raid mobs as summoners' pets.  lol

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Old 03-08-2010, 04:28 PM   #139
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Fine, enchanters needed to be brought down some.  Instead of an outright nerf, it was done in a series of steps:

In TSO they nerfed enchanters with gear (+ subj, etc.).  This nerf continues in SF:  The mage mark gear contains +casting, while we need +reuse.

Then they nerfed us with the AAs.  There is literally not one single SF AA ability that has me excited.

And finally they nerfed us with the 1.3 crit multiplier.

The net result is a correction that goes too far.  And it will only get worse.  Mark/fabled gear will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more.  Each passing AA point will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more. 

Okay, make our dps in line with bards if you want (which is debatable).  But our AAs need reworked.  After 210 AAs, what is there to put points in?   Why bother grinding AAs?  Why bother playing?  Why bother paying?

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Old 03-08-2010, 05:39 PM   #140
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AdamWest007 wrote:

Fine, enchanters needed to be brought down some.  Instead of an outright nerf, it was done in a series of steps:

In TSO they nerfed enchanters with gear (+ subj, etc.).  This nerf continues in SF:  The mage mark gear contains +casting, while we need +reuse.

Then they nerfed us with the AAs.  There is literally not one single SF AA ability that has me excited.

And finally they nerfed us with the 1.3 crit multiplier.

The net result is a correction that goes too far.  And it will only get worse.  Mark/fabled gear will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more.  Each passing AA point will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more. 

Okay, make our dps in line with bards if you want (which is debatable).  But our AAs need reworked.  After 210 AAs, what is there to put points in?   Why bother grinding AAs?  Why bother playing?  Why bother paying?

I have to admit that I was originally in full agreement with you on the crappy AAs.  My opinion has changed though.

Consider the new toys...

Sever hate: With 8 points in the Sever hate focus, we can now allow a scout to stay in during AEs.  Very useful for swipe, dispatch, or even a boost in assassin dps. I have even dropped it on a healer to allow an offtank to get rezzed during an AE.

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain.

Channeling (Enchanter end line):  Really needs to be on a faster reuse, but its a great "oh s***" button.  

Obviously, if you don't like the direction they took Coercer's then you will still find a way to be upset with these AAs.  Im just trying to bring some light into this dark post. 

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Old 03-08-2010, 07:39 PM   #141
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Phury wrote:

AdamWest007 wrote:

Fine, enchanters needed to be brought down some.  Instead of an outright nerf, it was done in a series of steps:

In TSO they nerfed enchanters with gear (+ subj, etc.).  This nerf continues in SF:  The mage mark gear contains +casting, while we need +reuse.

Then they nerfed us with the AAs.  There is literally not one single SF AA ability that has me excited.

And finally they nerfed us with the 1.3 crit multiplier.

The net result is a correction that goes too far.  And it will only get worse.  Mark/fabled gear will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more.  Each passing AA point will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more. 

Okay, make our dps in line with bards if you want (which is debatable).  But our AAs need reworked.  After 210 AAs, what is there to put points in?   Why bother grinding AAs?  Why bother playing?  Why bother paying?

I have to admit that I was originally in full agreement with you on the crappy AAs.  My opinion has changed though.

Consider the new toys...

Sever hate: With 8 points in the Sever hate focus, we can now allow a scout to stay in during AEs.  Very useful for swipe, dispatch, or even a boost in assassin dps. I have even dropped it on a healer to allow an offtank to get rezzed during an AE.

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain.

Channeling (Enchanter end line):  Really needs to be on a faster reuse, but its a great "oh s***" button.  

Obviously, if you don't like the direction they took Coercer's then you will still find a way to be upset with these AAs.  Im just trying to bring some light into this dark post. 

Some valid points. 

Being one of the coercers from the very start when we sucked bad and now that we have so much more control. I never cared for the DPS role but since we got it .  Well I enjoyed it.  I do not feel I was nerfed.   I do feel like we get a bit of the short end,  as nothing new was added to mez etc in a raid and I just want more control.  Sever Hate and the like really do not go far enough.  In some cases we have little time to even use it.  If we did too much DPS in the past that is fair.  However give us more control over the fight.  That does seem to be the orginal concept of an Enchanter.Imbuement was also a major part of the old school enchanter types thats something I would enjoy seeing again.  As buffs extra Damage procs etc. 

That all said I am not un happy and will continue to play my coercer.  It does remain my favorite class.

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:02 AM   #142
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I'm glad you guys got something because illies got jack.  now, no matter how much effort I put in, I can't make a difference. if I bust my tail trying to dps I might get as high as 10th. if I cast temps and watch tv I still come in 13 or so. who cares?  on power drain mobs, I can't keep my group full. I haven't noticed the coercers having any problems but both our illy groups seem to be struggling for power.

minmaxxing to get the most out of the class was what made the game rewarding for me. now, the difference between a great illy and a afk illy is barely noticable.  it's pretty lame that they have to [Removed for Content] us with crit. the whole reason we do so much dps is PROCs. with POM or POTM we cast at 1000mph at get a ton of dps from those procs. sorcs may get 7 spells off in the 20 seconds of POM where we get 30 or more.  I wear out mice clicking those buttons so much. a sorc can get a drink while manaburn is casting.  giving us a broken toy to play with while the other kids get shiny new ones is BS. I spent countless hours with training dummies and calculators trying to come up with the best gear/procs/casting orders. now, someone with 40 hours total playtime can beat me on the parse just because the devs want it that way.

after tonights raid where I was doing everything I could and still couldn't keep power or get above 10th on a parse, I gave away masters and plat. I'm sick of these jerks. they don't know how to fix anything without breaking something else. the worst part is they don't have the stones to post and own up to it.

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Old 03-10-2010, 04:56 PM   #143
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Phury wrote:

AdamWest007 wrote:

Fine, enchanters needed to be brought down some.  Instead of an outright nerf, it was done in a series of steps:

In TSO they nerfed enchanters with gear (+ subj, etc.).  This nerf continues in SF:  The mage mark gear contains +casting, while we need +reuse.

Then they nerfed us with the AAs.  There is literally not one single SF AA ability that has me excited.

And finally they nerfed us with the 1.3 crit multiplier.

The net result is a correction that goes too far.  And it will only get worse.  Mark/fabled gear will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more.  Each passing AA point will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more. 

Okay, make our dps in line with bards if you want (which is debatable).  But our AAs need reworked.  After 210 AAs, what is there to put points in?   Why bother grinding AAs?  Why bother playing?  Why bother paying?

I have to admit that I was originally in full agreement with you on the crappy AAs.  My opinion has changed though.

Consider the new toys...

Sever hate: With 8 points in the Sever hate focus, we can now allow a scout to stay in during AEs.  Very useful for swipe, dispatch, or even a boost in assassin dps. I have even dropped it on a healer to allow an offtank to get rezzed during an AE.

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain.

Channeling (Enchanter end line):  Really needs to be on a faster reuse, but its a great "oh s***" button.  

Obviously, if you don't like the direction they took Coercer's then you will still find a way to be upset with these AAs.  Im just trying to bring some light into this dark post. 

And what about non-raiders?

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Old 03-11-2010, 11:15 AM   #144
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Ilsa's Barrier Fight

Do you guys enjoy this fight? Furies give me Salve so I can help group cure/heal the trauma. I don't know about you but I find it exhilarating to cast Salve and as soon as the trauma hits, gone. Cured their butts like it was nothing. Stuff like this keeps me going. Maybe because I just enjoy playing "video games"

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Old 03-11-2010, 12:17 PM   #145
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ilsa's Barrier Fight

Do you guys enjoy this fight? Furies give me Salve so I can help group cure/heal the trauma. I don't know about you but I find it exhilarating to cast Salve and as soon as the trauma hits, gone. Cured their butts like it was nothing. Stuff like this keeps me going. Maybe because I just enjoy playing "video games"

this made me LOL.   I'm glad you found a use for us. we are the new salve targets. wait... who raids with a fury?

we raided with 18 last night. it's the first time we haven't had a full raid since before TSO. had 1 coercer and 1 illy. in TSO we usually had 6 chanters with more available if we needed them. the dps group was a sorc, necro, conji, troub, inq. they had 0 issues with power until we got to mobs with a power drain. I also noticed the conji really putting up nice numbers with everyone's gear getting pretty equal. I'm still full TSO. I haven't rolled on any raid gear since I am leaving.

I enjoy playing video games too. if you are playing a racing game do you look through the cars for a slow one with nice mileage?

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Old 03-11-2010, 04:45 PM   #146
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007djdeadly wrote:

Phury wrote:

AdamWest007 wrote:

Fine, enchanters needed to be brought down some.  Instead of an outright nerf, it was done in a series of steps:

In TSO they nerfed enchanters with gear (+ subj, etc.).  This nerf continues in SF:  The mage mark gear contains +casting, while we need +reuse.

Then they nerfed us with the AAs.  There is literally not one single SF AA ability that has me excited.

And finally they nerfed us with the 1.3 crit multiplier.

The net result is a correction that goes too far.  And it will only get worse.  Mark/fabled gear will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more.  Each passing AA point will beef up sumoners/sorcerers relative to enchanters even more. 

Okay, make our dps in line with bards if you want (which is debatable).  But our AAs need reworked.  After 210 AAs, what is there to put points in?   Why bother grinding AAs?  Why bother playing?  Why bother paying?

I have to admit that I was originally in full agreement with you on the crappy AAs.  My opinion has changed though.

Consider the new toys...

Sever hate: With 8 points in the Sever hate focus, we can now allow a scout to stay in during AEs.  Very useful for swipe, dispatch, or even a boost in assassin dps. I have even dropped it on a healer to allow an offtank to get rezzed during an AE.

Coercive shout:  Main tank go down?  Drop this on the offtank fast enough, and no one dies.  Playing with a guardian that has trouble with gathering lots of adds? Drop this on the guard and no one dies.  Should we have this much hate control? That is up for debate.

Group Velocity:  Group velocity is a win, add the 5% crit bonus adornment, its even better. Its not IA, but most fighters dont complain.

Channeling (Enchanter end line):  Really needs to be on a faster reuse, but its a great "oh s***" button.  

Obviously, if you don't like the direction they took Coercer's then you will still find a way to be upset with these AAs.  Im just trying to bring some light into this dark post. 

And what about non-raiders?

To be honest, the non-raiding coercer has a fraction to complain about than the raiding coercer.  But either way, all of these apply to groups as well. In group settings, your stuns and mezzes become quite important, and they did add Uninterruptible actions which helps you land spells as opposed to being interrupted.  Root is still worthless, but most mobs are dead long before they even get to you if stuns are used.

The more I am raiding in SF, the less I see to complain about the coercer class.  The gear in SF is a total mess, but the class itself is still pumping out heavy dps, providing solid mana recovery, and is still a pivotal player in hate management in group and raids.  

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Old 03-11-2010, 05:41 PM   #147
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"Heavy DPS" ?!?!!?

LOL.

Please define "Heavy DPS" so we can all have a nice little laugh.

Back in January of 2009, I was parsing 13k with my Illusionist - about equal to our Summoners.  The Assassins and Wizards in our raid were parsing 17-20k.  It felt pretty balanced to me.

Fast forward to March of 2010.  I've gained 10 levels, 50 AA's and a vast amount of high end raid gear.  I'm now pushing hard to parse 11k.  The Assassins and Wizards in our raid are parsing 25-30k, and in AE fights, our Conjuror is parsing 30-50k.

This is progress?

Yikes.

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Old 03-11-2010, 06:38 PM   #148
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Banditman wrote:

"Heavy DPS" ?!?!!?

LOL.

Please define "Heavy DPS" so we can all have a nice little laugh.

Back in January of 2009, I was parsing 13k with my Illusionist - about equal to our Summoners.  The Assassins and Wizards in our raid were parsing 17-20k.  It felt pretty balanced to me.

Fast forward to March of 2010.  I've gained 10 levels, 50 AA's and a vast amount of high end raid gear.  I'm now pushing hard to parse 11k.  The Assassins and Wizards in our raid are parsing 25-30k, and in AE fights, our Conjuror is parsing 30-50k.

This is progress?

Yikes.

Would you prefer "Moderate" DPS?  Is that a better word?  We are a utility class and not supposed to be shoulder to shoulder with the Assassins and Wizards.  At least we out parse the bards (at least I hope you do).    

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Old 03-11-2010, 07:09 PM   #149
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Parsing 30% less is "neck in neck"?  On what planet?

I'd be happy parsing 30% less than Assassins and Wizards now.  That sounds about right to me.

(That'd be about 19k btw)

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Old 03-11-2010, 09:58 PM   #150
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[email protected] wrote:

Banditman wrote:

"Heavy DPS" ?!?!!?

LOL.

Please define "Heavy DPS" so we can all have a nice little laugh.

Back in January of 2009, I was parsing 13k with my Illusionist - about equal to our Summoners.  The Assassins and Wizards in our raid were parsing 17-20k.  It felt pretty balanced to me.

Fast forward to March of 2010.  I've gained 10 levels, 50 AA's and a vast amount of high end raid gear.  I'm now pushing hard to parse 11k.  The Assassins and Wizards in our raid are parsing 25-30k, and in AE fights, our Conjuror is parsing 30-50k.

This is progress?

Yikes.

Would you prefer "Moderate" DPS?  Is that a better word?  We are a utility class and not supposed to be shoulder to shoulder with the Assassins and Wizards.  At least we out parse the bards (at least I hope you do).    

I'm 100% sure that not 1 enchanter in this thread said we should parse the same as sorcs and preds. reading comprehension ftw?

I am now parsing with the dirges and also an inq in the scout group that gets TC from the other illy. so, in our raids, the assassin is way out in front with 22-23k zw. ranger, sorc, conji are all fighting for 2-4 with none having a clear advantage. necro, swash, brig, SK, and Guard round out the top 9. next are the 2 coercers followed by a mix of illies, dirges, and the inq. the troub is usually in the bottom of this group.

if I use your logic, why are the tanks parsing as t2 dps? why is a healer doing 10-12k? I've seen the conji in the #1 spot in a lot of fights even though the sorc has better gear.   your logic sucks.  enchanters should be doing 65-75% of t1 dps. that is the way it was after the proc nerfs. that is the way it would be now if they would give us the same crit mods.

I say give us the same crit mods as every other mage and if YOU don't want to dps.......   dont. a second tick back on our myth buff wouldn't hurt anything either.

at least that would make me keep paying for my account.

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