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Old 07-19-2011, 05:14 PM   #1
tfetterman

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I'm not going to beat this subject to death.  There are countless threads about how the general consenus is that troubadors need some attention.  Most of all how the mythical proc is significantly weakened in comparison to dirges with critical chance being so abundant and MA making the dirge proc multiple times more powerful.

I'm asking SOE to recognize this need and spend some time on them.  They did it with SKs back in TSO, it's now rightfully the troubadors turn!  GU61 is a great opportunity to address this!

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Old 07-19-2011, 11:37 PM   #2
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tbh they really need to boost troubs, and nerf that dirge mythical. Dirge auto attack is absurd end game.

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Old 07-20-2011, 11:16 AM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:

tbh they really need to boost troubs, and nerf that dirge mythical. Dirge auto attack is absurd end game.

IMO you are only half right.

Troubadors need a boost, this cannot be doubted. 

Leave the Dirge Mythical alone.  Dirges cannot help it that Sony made Dirges DPS almost entirely from Auto Attack.  I'd support a potential AA reduction if a corresponding and equal increase in CA damage was included.

How does nerfing another class make playing a Troubador fun?  It would only serve to make players of the nerfed class as unhappy as the troubadors seem to be.

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Old 07-20-2011, 05:54 PM   #4
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I want to make this perfectly clear.  This post is not an effort to get dirges nerfed.  If you feel that you need to comment on that, please find another string to post on.  I just want to keep this strictly to improving the troubador and keeping SOE well aware that they have the perfect opportunity to make it happen.

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Old 07-20-2011, 07:02 PM   #5
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:13 AM   #6
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:06 PM   #7
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I think our mythical should be buffed to around equal power as the dirge's.  Not sure right now what I would reccomend to accomplish this... but I hope there is still enough of a community to be heard without simply bumping the thread... if there is so few of us left... then that should be sign.

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Old 07-21-2011, 02:55 PM   #8
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I think that's a right brilliant idea...upping the trouby epic to be on par with dirge. I betrayed to dirge because I couldn't solo as well or get groups more easily as a dirge.

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Old 07-21-2011, 04:01 PM   #9
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

I think our mythical should be buffed to around equal power as the dirge's.  Not sure right now what I would reccomend to accomplish this... but I hope there is still enough of a community to be heard without simply bumping the thread... if there is so few of us left... then that should be sign.

yes i agree.  its pretty rare to see a troubador around.  i have one, i call her "weakador".  she's stuck permanently in her mid 30s.  i know, not as bad as the 90s but she is 90 armorer so i cannot delete.  it's just not fun playing so her adventure level will never grow, without changes.  they need something, even at the lower levels, bc you cannot solo and arent much help in groups.

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Old 07-22-2011, 02:17 AM   #10
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Higher casting speed on most spells and spell MA should fix alot about the troub class. Missing out on buffing UT on yourself Is crap imo since most stuff feels like it takes ages to cast. Even healers have alot of spell MA atm so i dont see why a troub shouldent get some. Its not like the troub spells hit as hard as wizard spell so it would be no where near OP with some %ish of those

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Old 07-22-2011, 03:45 AM   #11
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Nerfing Dirges will not help Troubs, but Troubs for sure need some help. Even in full raid gear, my troub does less dps than many healers.

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Old 07-22-2011, 12:23 PM   #12
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Laiina wrote:

Nerfing Dirges will not help Troubs, but Troubs for sure need some help. Even in full raid gear, my troub does less dps than many healers.

This is really a funny comment.  I am not even in full raid gear.  Still missing a neck/hat/chest for EM Raid gear.  I am easily averaging 50K+ zone wide on EM.  Healers are not surpassing me. Troubs are probably one of the hardest classes to play in eq2, there is no easy mode for them, unless you just sit back, hit buttons and cast JCAP and PotM. Then you can parse 25-30k all the time.

Playing a troub takes time on training dummies, reading what each spell/CA does and figuring out the perfect casting order that fits your play. 

That being said, troubs are in DIRE need of work than any class out there right now.

I mean Raxxl's buffs INT+WIS still, Breathtaking Bellow what a useless spell,  We don't buff ourselves at all.  Allegretto sucks and is useless with the illy haste and CoB.  Alin's Serene Serenade does alot for the group but nothing for the troub.

Lastly when DoV first came out our charm and mezz worked on mobs, then that got fixed and it came back off my hot bar. 

These are issues that I can think of just off the top of my head while sitting her typing.

There are alot of other issues that need to be looked at for AAs, but I will wait until the AA changes hit test to comment on them.

But healers do not out dps us.

Noets

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Old 07-22-2011, 12:32 PM   #13
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Tigress wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

I think our mythical should be buffed to around equal power as the dirge's.  Not sure right now what I would reccomend to accomplish this... but I hope there is still enough of a community to be heard without simply bumping the thread... if there is so few of us left... then that should be sign.

yes i agree.  its pretty rare to see a troubador around.  i have one, i call her "weakador".  she's stuck permanently in her mid 30s.  i know, not as bad as the 90s but she is 90 armorer so i cannot delete.  it's just not fun playing so her adventure level will never grow, without changes.  they need something, even at the lower levels, bc you cannot solo and arent much help in groups.

lol

You are doing it wrong.

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Old 07-22-2011, 12:55 PM   #14
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Notes wrote:

Laiina wrote:

Nerfing Dirges will not help Troubs, but Troubs for sure need some help. Even in full raid gear, my troub does less dps than many healers.

This is really a funny comment.  I am not even in full raid gear.  Still missing a neck/hat/chest for EM Raid gear.  I am easily averaging 50K+ zone wide on EM.  Healers are not surpassing me. Troubs are probably one of the hardest classes to play in eq2, there is no easy mode for them, unless you just sit back, hit buttons and cast JCAP and PotM. Then you can parse 25-30k all the time.

Playing a troub takes time on training dummies, reading what each spell/CA does and figuring out the perfect casting order that fits your play. 

That being said, troubs are in DIRE need of work than any class out there right now.

I mean Raxxl's buffs INT+WIS still, Breathtaking Bellow what a useless spell,  We don't buff ourselves at all.  Allegretto sucks and is useless with the illy haste and CoB.  Alin's Serene Serenade does alot for the group but nothing for the troub.

Lastly when DoV first came out our charm and mezz worked on mobs, then that got fixed and it came back off my hot bar. 

These are issues that I can think of just off the top of my head while sitting her typing.

There are alot of other issues that need to be looked at for AAs, but I will wait until the AA changes hit test to comment on them.

But healers do not out dps us.

Noets

As a warlock I support the fact that troubs need some love, it does need to me

Troubadors are and always have been intended as a utility class, they add a lot to a group, more than any other class, they increase spell range, boost damage output, decrease hate gain on a groupwide basis, they have power regen and CC and both are pretty good though the CC has issues. As Notes stated they can do some good DPS but it is not an easy button and there are not really a lot of great resources with good current info on troubs. The troub in my raid group can solo a lot of tnings does 70K or so DPS which he is missing a EM BP and head which both should easily add 10K or better.

I hope the new AA's give them some good things, but you have to keep in mind that DPS wise a class that adds the amount of DPS to a group that they do is not going to be doing a lot themselves and remember once again that they are not easy to play by far, unless you want to just AF and click PoTM and VC+DD here and there.

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Old 07-23-2011, 03:35 AM   #15
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tfetterman wrote:

I want to make this perfectly clear.  This post is not an effort to get dirges nerfed.  If you feel that you need to comment on that, please find another string to post on.  I just want to keep this strictly to improving the troubador and keeping SOE well aware that they have the perfect opportunity to make it happen.

Thanks you for making it clear.  I've just seen too many people who moan on and on how overpowered they think a class is just because it's different and not as broken as their class.

Really I think the issue with troubadors lies with their abilities and what groups they are tailored to.   Troubadors are mostly put into caster groups to maximize the groups DPS.  While Troubadors do have a lot of spells, they still have to rely on melee to bring in some damage.  And with the group being a caster one, melee buffs are few and far between.

The solution: It would be my suggestion that they increase the power of the Troubadors spells along with revamping their mythical to offer a increase to their spell damage.  The change to the mythical should be on par with that of the dirges mythical.

To me the Troubador should be a spellcasting force.  Where a Dirge is more the type to get up close and get bloody.

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Old 07-25-2011, 12:31 AM   #16
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Bump, to keep this on the Recent Topics list.

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Old 07-25-2011, 06:16 AM   #17
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Old 07-25-2011, 03:56 PM   #18
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Maybe our myth buff could proc an effect similar to the dirges Intrepid strike but Max spell damage instead of max Melee?  That might help lessen the gap some with out taking away the uniqueness.  Hopefully someone else has ideas which we can discuss.

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Old 07-25-2011, 05:27 PM   #19
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Our discussion about ideas really are irrelevant.  The devs will do what they see fit.  They should know what the issues are by now.  I just want to make it fresh in their minds that it needs to be done.

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Old 07-25-2011, 06:05 PM   #20
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Our discussions may be irrevalant but I think if we're saying something that looks better than bumping.  I don't mean any offense but I'm hoping we can show them we exist and keep this up with out just bumping.

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Old 07-25-2011, 07:37 PM   #21
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That's the main problem though.  We don't exist.  There aren't many that play a troub because of how badly their mechanics are currently.  I'm sure that will get SOE's attention more than anything. 

I do agree though that bumping isn't the way I'd like to keep this topic fresh.

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Old 07-25-2011, 08:43 PM   #22
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Only solution I can think of to keep this thread up is to banter ideas back and forth.  Even if there's only two of doing it.  It will be an active thread.  Sure they know the issues but tossing some ideas around can't hurt.

Ideas I have:

1 Buff our myth buff to be in line with dirges Do Not nerf the dirge myth buff to be in line with ours

2 Possibly make all of our abiltities range capable.  By this I mean allow all of our combat arts to be ranged abilities.  This way we can stay with the casters we buff and use all of our abilities.

Those are the only two I can think of currently.  Any ideas  pertaining to one can still be discussed and I'm willing to listen to opinions on 2.  Also any other ideas would be great.  As I said going ahead and bantering ideas can't hurt.

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:02 PM   #23
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Only solution I can think of to keep this thread up is to banter ideas back and forth.  Even if there's only two of doing it.  It will be an active thread.  Sure they know the issues but tossing some ideas around can't hurt.

Ideas I have:

1 Buff our myth buff to be in line with dirges Do Not nerf the dirge myth buff to be in line with ours

2 Possibly make all of our abiltities range capable.  By this I mean allow all of our combat arts to be ranged abilities.  This way we can stay with the casters we buff and use all of our abilities.

Those are the only two I can think of currently.  Any ideas  pertaining to one can still be discussed and I'm willing to listen to opinions on 2.  Also any other ideas would be great.  As I said going ahead and bantering ideas can't hurt.

There is absolutely no need for you to stay back with the casters on a regular basis.  If you have a good healer, they will make sure you are in range of their heals.  They should split the difference between you and the casters.  Further, casters get within melee range now to use their big spells now.  Your range buff will take care of the casters when you are in and they are out.  You lose all kinds of dps by ranging.  Adding range to some of our spells will make it better, but you still should be in.  The uncapped MA demands it!

I think that max spell damage on all magic damage to include all procs both from you and the rest of your raid/group will be a step in the right direction.  Taking the cap off of haste is going to be a good thing it will help us rack up on flury, so we already have help there.  Adding agility and stamina and removing the worthless mitigation on Raxxyl's Rousing Tune sounds like a good benefit.

They are redoing the troubador tree, so now we won't have to waste 20 points to get harmonization, unless they still set the tree up wrong and assume worthless choices aren't really useless.  I also think that the health added to Rejuvenating Concerto should probably be doubled along with the worthless regeneration added to each tick.  It isn't nearly enough with the current health stats exploding as they have.

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Old 07-26-2011, 01:22 AM   #24
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Alot more casting speed is needed for the troub class. And spell MA maybe some boost in spell damage aswell. Dirges gets AA that increas the casting speed of their spells yet troubs dont?  all should be faster really if they gona keep being on the damage they are atm. The myth proc can easy be changed to 15-20% spell MA insted of the crit proc. That should really make up for alot imo.

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Old 07-26-2011, 02:41 AM   #25
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Netty wrote:

Alot more casting speed is needed for the troub class. And spell MA maybe some boost in spell damage aswell. Dirges gets AA that increas the casting speed of their spells yet troubs dont?  all should be faster really if they gona keep being on the damage they are atm. The myth proc can easy be changed to 15-20% spell MA insted of the crit proc. That should really make up for alot imo.

You can cap yourself out on casting speed with the right AA spec and a couple adorns.  Casting speed isn't the issue.  Spell MA really won't be nearly as significant as max spell damage on all magic items.  Those ideas really aren't going to improve anything.  Thanks for the input though. 

After some thought, I'm willing to ask that they make the dirge proc a bard proc.  Why not?  We are both scouts, and the gear we get supports melee rather than spells.

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Old 07-26-2011, 04:02 AM   #26
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tfetterman wrote:

Netty wrote:

Alot more casting speed is needed for the troub class. And spell MA maybe some boost in spell damage aswell. Dirges gets AA that increas the casting speed of their spells yet troubs dont?  all should be faster really if they gona keep being on the damage they are atm. The myth proc can easy be changed to 15-20% spell MA insted of the crit proc. That should really make up for alot imo.

You can cap yourself out on casting speed with the right AA spec and a couple adorns.  Casting speed isn't the issue.  Spell MA really won't be nearly as significant as max spell damage on all magic items.  Those ideas really aren't going to improve anything.  Thanks for the input though. 

After some thought, I'm willing to ask that they make the dirge proc a bard proc.  Why not?  We are both scouts, and the gear we get supports melee rather than spells.

Really then can you pls explain to me how to cap yourself in casting speed? And for that why would you waste red or yellow slots on casting speed... White... well i bet you there are better options. Face it man some of the troub spells need to be faster casting really. If you are saying that spell MA and more casting speed arnt gona improve anything i have to ask are we playing the same game? Note that i dident say that this will put us on pair with the dirge class. It will just help alot.

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:05 AM   #27
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:10 AM   #28
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Troubs are fine. Once 90/300 their just as viable as a dirge. Bards are so AA and gear dependant its pathetic! But troubs... their autoattack is right on par with a dirge! Their nukes on the other hand dont coincide with scout gear. They need more casting speed and other mage stats. That comes at a small cost to autoattack damage.

Their group hate reduction is not on par with dirge hate buff (grandmaster).

Give troubs some mage self buffs and free up a concentration slot. Increase mana regen for group desirability. Increase their group hate redux a bit.

Fixed!!!

Now stop bumping your own thread.

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Old 07-26-2011, 10:16 AM   #29
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tfetterman wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Only solution I can think of to keep this thread up is to banter ideas back and forth.  Even if there's only two of doing it.  It will be an active thread.  Sure they know the issues but tossing some ideas around can't hurt.

Ideas I have:

1 Buff our myth buff to be in line with dirges Do Not nerf the dirge myth buff to be in line with ours

2 Possibly make all of our abiltities range capable.  By this I mean allow all of our combat arts to be ranged abilities.  This way we can stay with the casters we buff and use all of our abilities.

Those are the only two I can think of currently.  Any ideas  pertaining to one can still be discussed and I'm willing to listen to opinions on 2.  Also any other ideas would be great.  As I said going ahead and bantering ideas can't hurt.

There is absolutely no need for you to stay back with the casters on a regular basis.  If you have a good healer, they will make sure you are in range of their heals.  They should split the difference between you and the casters.  Further, casters get within melee range now to use their big spells now.  Your range buff will take care of the casters when you are in and they are out.  You lose all kinds of dps by ranging.  Adding range to some of our spells will make it better, but you still should be in.  The uncapped MA demands it!

I think that max spell damage on all magic damage to include all procs both from you and the rest of your raid/group will be a step in the right direction.  Taking the cap off of haste is going to be a good thing it will help us rack up on flury, so we already have help there.  Adding agility and stamina and removing the worthless mitigation on Raxxyl's Rousing Tune sounds like a good benefit.

They are redoing the troubador tree, so now we won't have to waste 20 points to get harmonization, unless they still set the tree up wrong and assume worthless choices aren't really useless.  I also think that the health added to Rejuvenating Concerto should probably be doubled along with the worthless regeneration added to each tick.  It isn't nearly enough with the current health stats exploding as they have.

You bring up a valid point.  To clariy what I was suggesting was making our combat arts ranged.  Btw ranged auto-attack also uses multi-attack.  Like I said it was just an idea.

As for casting speed.  I don't believe I am anywhere near cap and there are other adornments I would prefer to use.  I do use a few white adorns for casting speed but not many.  I agree that more casting speed maybe on our gear would be nice.  We have this armor that is dropping in group and raid zones designed specifically for us and it has nothing what so ever to do with casting.

So heres what I see so far of ideas posted here:

Mine: Ranged combat arts or blue aoes

Tfetterman: max spell damage

Netty: Spell multi-attack and more casting speed

I say we continue to discuss these ideas/add more.  We may not agree but why don't we agree?  I say keep discussing and let's not ignore anyone.  You said you don't want to bump the thread... but you keep doing so.

Um I've talked to some of my dirge friends and we've compared abilties.  My auto-attack is not on par with theirs.  As for the de-hate at master it does -33 hate mod add the focus to that (Can't remember which armor piece it's on right now) and it puts you at -43 hate mod.  The cap is -50 for de-hate. With others in the group who can lower hate as well I've been in groups where my modifier is over -100 and my ui doesn't know how to count it.  More negative hate mod would do nothing.  As for the power regen yes more power would be good.

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Old 07-26-2011, 10:40 AM   #30
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"Um I've talked to some of my dirge friends and we've compared abilties. My auto-attack is not on par with theirs."

Then your gear was different, DPS mod, haste, group set up, etc. Because we have the exact same ability as dirges. I have a dirge and a troub. The only advantage a dirge has is COB (for the most part) and that is raid wide. Invest in poison in the bard tree. Dead calm and the other dirge proc are crap and never parse anything game changing or worth mentioning.

Dirge w/ 3000agi, 125% dps mod and 100 haste (example) - 30,000-50,000 dps

Troub w/ 3000agi, 125% dps mod and 100 haste (example) 30,000-50,000 dps

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