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Old 04-06-2011, 05:28 PM   #91
Raahl

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Wasuna wrote:

Raahl wrote:

Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies.  The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes.   Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges.

The swing disparty is very close to what you would expect from a 4 second and 6 second weapon disparity. If you can see that then look at the max, min and average hit and you will see the exact impact of the dirge mythical buff as compared to the troubador one. The dirge average hit is 10% harder than the Troubador even though the Troubador is using slower, harder hitting weapons.

Also, the parses you pulled up form somewhere show a Troubador that is using a huge god ability to increase their VC and that has more group provided procs than the dirge parse shows so the actual individual DPS is even further skewed than you show. Those parses are from some unknown place and it doesn't even look like a reasonable comparision. The Troubadors raid killed that named 20% faster so I assume they had a significant gear advanatge while doing less DPS.

In the end I could care less where DPS is coming from. The two bards should be similar. I actually think the Troubador provides a bigger dps increase for their mage group than a dirge does for a melee group (but that is my opinion) so I wouldn't have an issue with a slight disparity but the reported 1.5-2 times is not acceptable. Once people get their reuse back up again the effective gap will widen again since UT and J-Cap will be less effective.

Both have a pretty high DPS value for VC.

At one point in time the Dirge in that parse was dual wielding 6s delay weapons.  I think he may have gone back to 4s though.

As far as which provides more to their group, it's tough to say because a lot of the buffs are for stats like MA/CC/ETC.  Not as easily measured.

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Old 04-06-2011, 08:38 PM   #92
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This is all pretty terrible and heavily biased information.

IIRC, Buffrat and his group buff many things around his own personal dps.  Many of his parses he'll buff himself with BC, rather than grant it to a DPS Scout.  I can count, pretty much never that a Troub has that luxury in a guild that I've been in, on a raid.  So to see that he does great dps, for a bard, really isn't a surprise at all.  Trying to balance an entire class around one guilds' bard that specs for pure dps, and generally gets buffed for pure dps is probably highly unwise.   Buffrat is a really good dps'er in his own right, and quite honestly, putting him on a Troub he would probably do pretty good numbers there as well.

Do the Troubs sit in Buffrat's group?  Or are they in a Mage group?  I'm not suggesting that troubs do as much dps as Dirges, though...I suspect its not as far off as you people make it seem.  While I'm sure that Dirges do more dps than Troubs this xpac, anyway you slice it, you should probably know that during TSO and all the way through most of Sent Fate (I quit in November), I outdid all of our Dirges in my guilds' dps on a fairly regular basis.  In fact, I'm quite certain I did more dps than any bard on AB during that time as well, as a Troub. 

I would say that in 95% of raid situations, Dirges do about the same amount of RW dps on a percentage basis as they always did.

So for the 600th time, I think what needs to happen is that the Troub myth needs to be revisited.  Regarding making the Troubador more fun to play, I don't think its just the dps as the issue.  I believe the root, CORE issue is the dps *and* the lack of active abilities that they have.  Its just  a very dry class to play.  It also doesn't help that most all Scout items are geared for Melee dps'ers and difficult to find things that actually really benefit a Troub.

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Old 04-06-2011, 08:54 PM   #93
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Celuin wrote:

This is all pretty terrible and heavily biased information.

IIRC, Buffrat and his group buff many things around his own personal dps.  Many of his parses he'll buff himself with BC, rather than grant it to a DPS Scout.  I can count, pretty much never that a Troub has that luxury in a guild that I've been in, on a raid.  So to see that he does great dps, for a bard, really isn't a surprise at all.  Trying to balance an entire class around one guilds' bard that specs for pure dps, and generally gets buffed for pure dps is probably highly unwise.   Buffrat is a really good dps'er in his own right, and quite honestly, putting him on a Troub he would probably do pretty good numbers there as well.

Do the Troubs sit in Buffrat's group?  Or are they in a Mage group?  I'm not suggesting that troubs do as much dps as Dirges, though...I suspect its not as far off as you people make it seem.  While I'm sure that Dirges do more dps than Troubs this xpac, anyway you slice it, you should probably know that during TSO and all the way through most of Sent Fate (I quit in November), I outdid all of our Dirges in my guilds' dps on a fairly regular basis.  In fact, I'm quite certain I did more dps than any bard on AB during that time as well, as a Troub. 

I would say that in 95% of raid situations, Dirges do about the same amount of RW dps on a percentage basis as they always did.

So for the 600th time, I think what needs to happen is that the Troub myth needs to be revisited.  Regarding making the Troubador more fun to play, I don't think its just the dps as the issue.  I believe the root, CORE issue is the dps *and* the lack of active abilities that they have.  Its just  a very dry class to play.  It also doesn't help that most all Scout items are geared for Melee dps'ers and difficult to find things that actually really benefit a Troub.

Agreed Troubadors need some love.  SMILEY

I understand that Buffrat is jigged out all to heck and back.  I'm hoping that the Troubador is similarly jigged out.  This is part of the reason why I'd like to see their stats too.

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Old 04-06-2011, 08:57 PM   #94
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Heh, I forgot to mention....

Ability mod certainly benefits troubs far more than dirges, due to the reliance for a dirge on auto attack versus spells and CAs as a troubador.  I don't know that most troubadors have really gotten to have 2500 Ability mod yet, which does nothing aside from damage their dps.

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Old 04-08-2011, 10:29 AM   #95
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Not sure if Gaige forgot to post the parses or not but I don't see any.

I'll go ahead and assume a conspiracy theory that certin people did not one said parses provided or shown. SoE has a long track record of not noticing things until players prove it to them and then dropping the hammer. Nobody wants a hammer dropped but many would like some actuvity to balance things.

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Old 04-08-2011, 11:33 AM   #96
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Wasuna wrote:

Not sure if Gaige forgot to post the parses or not but I don't see any.

I'll go ahead and assume a conspiracy theory that certin people did not one said parses provided or shown. SoE has a long track record of not noticing things until players prove it to them and then dropping the hammer. Nobody wants a hammer dropped but many would like some actuvity to balance things.

Assume all you want.  I suspect Gaige was busy having fun to even consider posting.

Personally I believe this issue lies with the Troubador's DPS being dependant on Melee damage too much.  And because they typically get put into a caster group, never get the nicer melee group buffs.

What's the solution to this?  I guess they could either increase their spell based damage to make up for the melee deficit or change their myth buff to bring up their melee DPS more.  

What do the active Troubadors want?  Do you want to be more spell based DPS or Melee?

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Old 04-09-2011, 12:01 AM   #97
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This thread died as soon as it was put in this forum. Let's talk about something else like tradeskilling or having multiple houses. Maybe it will get moved to a more active area.

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Old 04-11-2011, 11:13 AM   #98
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Raahl wrote:

Assume all you want.  I suspect Gaige was busy having fun to even consider posting.

Personally I believe this issue lies with the Troubador's DPS being dependant on Melee damage too much.  And because they typically get put into a caster group, never get the nicer melee group buffs.

What's the solution to this?  I guess they could either increase their spell based damage to make up for the melee deficit or change their myth buff to bring up their melee DPS more.  

What do the active Troubadors want?  Do you want to be more spell based DPS or Melee?

That's the beauty of all the people being 'in the know' all the sudden not talking anymore. I can assume away and nobody that knows for sure will say a thing. If they do, then there is the potentional for one fo the top 5 parses in their raid to be adjusted in some way.

As for an earlier comment about Gaiges dirge friend being buffed for DPS, only the people capable of generating that DPS get buffed for it. Gaiges raid force is not stupid and they notice potentional and jumped on it.

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Old 04-14-2011, 04:42 PM   #99
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The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive.

simple suggestions.

instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA.

we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks.

one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based.

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them.

as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.

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Old 04-14-2011, 05:21 PM   #100
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Kunaak wrote:

The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive.

simple suggestions.

instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA.

we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks.

one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based.

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them.

as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.

Didnt you notice this died out three days ago, plus giving multiple housing to characters and that kind of fluff is much more important than fixing troubs.

Noets

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Old 04-15-2011, 11:26 AM   #101
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Kunaak wrote:

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

Wrong.  The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.

But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA?  Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?

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Old 04-15-2011, 11:28 AM   #102
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Notes wrote:

Kunaak wrote:

The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive.

simple suggestions.

instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA.

we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks.

one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based.

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them.

as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.

Didnt you notice this died out three days ago, plus giving multiple housing to characters and that kind of fluff is much more important than fixing troubs.

Noets

It only dies out if you let it.

But I agree, Sony has a horrible habit of adding crap to the game instead of fixing issues that already exist first.

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Old 04-17-2011, 03:59 PM   #103
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Raahl wrote:

Kunaak wrote:

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

Wrong.  The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.

But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA?  Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?

what else would one expect from a dirge?

well, besides buffrat, who chooses to tell the truth, even at the cost of possibly nerfing his own toon....

I know you havent botherd to really look into your own mythical buff, otherwise, you wouldnt be in such denial about it.

dirges can currently get between 60-70% of thier DPS from auto attacks alone - thats cause of the buff. when your parsing 120k +, and auto attacks = 90k of your damage - somethings not right.

not even the highest parsing assassin can claim that kinda DPS for so little effort.

the fact is, the dirge mythical is so OP right now, that honestly, I cant recall a single item ever - that quite literally can almost double your parse, from a single proc.

the only reason you choose to say its not OP, is in the hopes no one notices, and no one says anything about it....

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Old 04-18-2011, 10:58 AM   #104
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Kunaak wrote:

Raahl wrote:

Kunaak wrote:

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

Wrong.  The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.

But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA?  Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?

what else would one expect from a dirge?

well, besides buffrat, who chooses to tell the truth, even at the cost of possibly nerfing his own toon....

I know you havent botherd to really look into your own mythical buff, otherwise, you wouldnt be in such denial about it.

dirges can currently get between 60-70% of thier DPS from auto attacks alone - thats cause of the buff. when your parsing 120k +, and auto attacks = 90k of your damage - somethings not right.

not even the highest parsing assassin can claim that kinda DPS for so little effort.

the fact is, the dirge mythical is so OP right now, that honestly, I cant recall a single item ever - that quite literally can almost double your parse, from a single proc.

the only reason you choose to say its not OP, is in the hopes no one notices, and no one says anything about it....

Yet another nerf x class with no suggestions to fixing your own class.    How does nerfing another class fix your class?

Currently around 50-60% AA as my DPS and my best is 31k, and that's on heroic instance mobs, cut it down to ~22k for epic.   And guess what?  I have the Dirge Mythical buff.   So yea it's really overpowered.

Perhaps basing the Dirge DPS so heavily on AutoAttack is a bad design on Sony's part.  But that's the way it is.   If they decide to greatly increase our CA damage, I could accept a reduction in AutoAttack damage.

I support any solution that fixes the issues with the Troubador Mythical buff.

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Old 04-18-2011, 01:54 PM   #105
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lets be honest here.

it really doesnt matter what we say, or suggest here.

they moved this post here to kill this post.

theres not a single dev any where, willing to look into this, I would bet.

no matter how bad the issue is - this post was moved here, to kill it, as far as I can tell.

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Old 04-18-2011, 02:09 PM   #106
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Raahl wrote:

Kunaak wrote:

Raahl wrote:

Kunaak wrote:

dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?

Wrong.  The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.

But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA?  Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?

what else would one expect from a dirge?

well, besides buffrat, who chooses to tell the truth, even at the cost of possibly nerfing his own toon....

I know you havent botherd to really look into your own mythical buff, otherwise, you wouldnt be in such denial about it.

dirges can currently get between 60-70% of thier DPS from auto attacks alone - thats cause of the buff. when your parsing 120k +, and auto attacks = 90k of your damage - somethings not right.

not even the highest parsing assassin can claim that kinda DPS for so little effort.

the fact is, the dirge mythical is so OP right now, that honestly, I cant recall a single item ever - that quite literally can almost double your parse, from a single proc.

the only reason you choose to say its not OP, is in the hopes no one notices, and no one says anything about it....

Yet another nerf x class with no suggestions to fixing your own class.    How does nerfing another class fix your class?

Currently around 50-60% AA as my DPS and my best is 31k, and that's on heroic instance mobs, cut it down to ~22k for epic.   And guess what?  I have the Dirge Mythical buff.   So yea it's really overpowered.

Perhaps basing the Dirge DPS so heavily on AutoAttack is a bad design on Sony's part.  But that's the way it is.   If they decide to greatly increase our CA damage, I could accept a reduction in AutoAttack damage.

I support any solution that fixes the issues with the Troubador Mythical buff.

This is the way it works in politics too.  Instead of trying to find a way to better yourself, you bring someone else down to your level.  That's the nature of lazy humans.

Personally, I would like to see max spell damage with a moderate modifier (~20%) and uncap all casting speeds on all spells like Perfect Shrill (currently capped at .5 seconds) used as a solution.  Max melee damage with uncapped MA allowed the Dirge dps extreme escalation.  The reason why I asked for a modifier is that troubs are still scouts, and if played correctly you can still get considerable damage from auto attack.  Auto attack should still be your main focus with uncapped MA, but you don't get anything special added to it.  Potency is uncapped but it is very difficult to get it the numbers that you can get MA.  This modifier would bring everything back in line.

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Old 04-18-2011, 04:41 PM   #107
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Just an Off the wall idea from a Non-bard player.... Since i know that trouby's have 0 blue AoE's and at least 1 person is talking about wanting more AoE bast. how about something that changes all of your Green AoE's into unlimited target Blue AoE's. Last item i checked music isnt limited just 1 group of mobs it effects every one around your... Right? Just an idea.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:17 PM   #108
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Turning our green spells to blue spells would do almost nothing to our dps and would turn our joke of a myth buff into more of a joke when the dirge's catch wind of it and laugh.

Other major problem for troubs:

The dreaded "dps" scout in your mage group. Yes, when the raid leaders decide to stick a scout in the troubs mage group so that the scout gets ia and ai and whatever else buffs that you would of gotten instead. And all the troub ends up getting for the night's raid is a ro's flame or venemous runes , maybe a ember seed or whatever the spells are called. Then when you go look at the parse and see that your are at the bottom between the healers makes you not  want to come back the next night and raid again.

A solution to this, give the troub some self buffs that dont stack with other buffs like ia.

Change rejuvenating celebration: seriously health regen.

Change sandra deafening strike: come on we are still stealing power?

Change requiem of reflection: i love the idea to absorb an aoe, but there are mainly physical aoe's in epic dov content, maybe make it trigger off of any aoe to absorb any aoe including physcial aoe's, just not off of physcial melee attacks like dirge stoneskin.

I dont have anything to mezz or charm in raid content (and don't want to) or to tell the truth in any content, thats not the troubs roll.

Hopefully you developer's will suprise me and have did some rebalancing to the troub class/ myth buff in GU 60.

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Old 04-30-2011, 10:21 AM   #109
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Gotta say, having a maxx lvl of both bards... there is a HUGE gap between dirge and troub post DOV. 

The myth buff is just one part, but its also the stat consolidation, expansion gear inflation and DoV aa tree, and DOV favoring melee dps generally.

The best troub buffs dont mean as much when all the casters and most everyone else can max thier own casting and reuse speeds.  And what was useless before DoV remeains just as useless.

Troubs definitely need some lovin'.

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Old 05-23-2011, 03:48 PM   #110
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troubs are about 75% caster, and 25% melee.

that puts us in a really bad spot in DoV, since no gear has Spell DA, we cant maximize on either MA or SDA.

we're low DPS casters, and ok at melee - that combo, means almost all actual scout gear, does almost nothing for us.

the farther this expansion goes, the more I watch my troub counterparts quit, stop raiding, or sadly - betray. this expansion seems to be designed to kill off troubs - and the worst part is, while theres pretty much universal support accross the board from troubs, and even some well known dirges that troubs, are indeed in very bad shape...

we cant even get a reply to know, atleast someones looking into this.

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Old 05-30-2011, 05:44 PM   #111
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Kunaak wrote:

we cant even get a reply to know, atleast someones looking into this.

No devs actually play a troub and probably never have. For this reason and this reason alone they just simply do not understand the class and most likely just do not care at all since there are so few left. If the troubs stopped existing today, I'm fairly possitive no one in the world would know except for the QQ that would spawn from squishies not getting PotM, UT, Harmonization, and the people that still can make use of JCap.

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Old 07-07-2011, 04:57 PM   #112
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I am bringing this thread back to life, cause its important. It still needs to be looked at and addressed, i still care even though i am enjoying playing a dirge now.

Dirge myth proc ftw!

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Old 07-07-2011, 05:24 PM   #113
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I just started playing and I picked a Troubadour.  I'm only 10th level right now, but I'm going to stick with the guy.  Hopefully there will be an update soon that will even things out a bit.

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Old 07-10-2011, 06:51 AM   #114
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My troub doesn't log in unless there is plat or another form of garunteed return/rolling for my mains. I could be doing something productive with my time like playing a class that is actually fun to play, and tbh if others want the buffs, they can compensate me for it. Every minute playing my troub is another minute I'm not playing the toons I want to play. With how diminished troub buffs are anymore, playing my troub is more like a tedious job than anything else. Spam moar buttonz and do next to nothing really productive!

Until my troub means more than just a few maintained buffs, jcaps, potm, an extra VC, and UT, it's going to stay logged out. Apparently I'm not the only one that feels that way, as I've seen less than 2 dozen troubs actively running on my server. When everyone and their dog has a dirge, and theres a small handful of troubs, there is seriously a very clear and obvious problem. Just like there has been for quite a while.

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Old 07-12-2011, 04:01 PM   #115
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Maybe another idea is giving us a proc similar to the dirge except max damage of our spells instead of our combat arts?  Right now I am  dedicated mage troub.  My mages seem to adore me.  I have fun but, sometimes I wish I wasn't so invisible.  I've been told my dps is decent for a trouby, but sometimes I really wonder if I did go afk in the middle of a fight who would know?  I think that is the problem we have. 

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Old 07-12-2011, 10:11 PM   #116
Netty

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troubs are no where near dirges in dps. In fact i would say the only once parsing lower or should anyway atm is some healers. with dps going uncaped soon i bet the diff will be even worse. Sure its easy to get but not in the mage group really!

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Old 07-14-2011, 10:42 AM   #117
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Netty wrote:

troubs are no where near dirges in dps. In fact i would say the only once parsing lower or should anyway atm is some healers. with dps going uncaped soon i bet the diff will be even worse. Sure its easy to get but not in the mage group really!

So the problem is in the design of the Troubador.  Because they are tailored to buff casters.   IMO if a class is tailored to buff casters it should primarily get it's damage from spells. 

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Old 09-18-2011, 05:42 AM   #118
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It's time to get this going around a little bit again.  The myth effect is the only thing left to change after all of the other troub changes.  Crit chance is pretty worthless with all the crit going around these days.

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Old 04-29-2012, 06:17 AM   #119
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Netty wrote:

troubs are no where near dirges in dps. In fact i would say the only once parsing lower or should anyway atm is some healers. with dps going uncaped soon i bet the diff will be even worse. Sure its easy to get but not in the mage group really!

We are as good on the parse as dirges on encounter fights due to grp's which we get put in, Single target DPS and equal gear / skill lvl dirge should wipe the floor with us.  This is due to the amount of dps mod and flurry

The problem here is a  out dated myth 15 cc ~ from a proc when mobs require 400 + and a proc that does min dmg.

I would like to see it brought up to scratch with Dirge flurry pot proc, This would be awsome but that lowers variety, accurracy / damage to next spell / chance to reset last ability used / or even SDA chance ...thats just some idea's i think would help the Troub's of this wo

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