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Old 02-27-2013, 03:24 PM   #1
TorrynWoodsrunner

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I've asked around about this previously, but I figure I might get a faster answer if I post in the actual Player Studio forum, so here goes:

I am a digital artist. You may have seen some of the work I've submitted to the various painting contests that were run from time to time. I feel that Player Studio might be the perfect opportunity for me to get some new, original art into the game, and give decorators some more paintings with which to decorate.

I'd like to know if it would be possible to get the UV templates for the existing painting/frames in EQ/EQ2. I'd like to keep with the current frame styles that are available, so people who are creating galleries or other large displays can keep things fairly uniform and consistent. I can easily create new frame textures, and I also figure it might be easier on the Studio team if they know that the new paintings can be easily and readily wrapped around frame models that are already known to work.

Thanks in advance for any information, I'm looking forward to getting started on some new in-game paintings!

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Old 02-27-2013, 10:42 PM   #2
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Would you be able to create your own frames.  We dont have a painting specific category.  We have a house item section that you could create a painting with a frame and submit there.

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Old 02-28-2013, 03:39 AM   #3
TorrynWoodsrunner

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Are you asking if I can build my own painting/frame model and UV Map it? If so, the answer is no, I'm not a modeler. But if I have the UV Map for an existing model (like the existing house paintings), I can paint texture maps accordingly.

That's why I was asking for the raw UV Maps for existing house paintings. Much like re-textuing the existing cloak model, I can easily re-texture the existing paintings, IF I know how the texture maps are laid out.

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Old 02-28-2013, 03:54 AM   #4
BeastlyMana

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I am in the same boat there. I am not very good at all with 3D modeling, but textures I can do very well. I would love to have more templates to work from.

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Old 02-28-2013, 04:19 AM   #5
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BeastlyMana wrote:

I am in the same boat there. I am not very good at all with 3D modeling, but textures I can do very well. I would love to have more templates to work from.

Covic is free to correct me, but EQ2 cloaks seem a special case as they are animated / cloth simulated.  I am sure you would make ttobey cry if he had to slavishly reanimate every Player Studio cloak as they put out because someone rounded the corners or took a V cut out of somewhere etc...  Remember, ultimately, SoE is a Company and Companies have only 1 goal;  make as much money as possible.  Giving someone a 40% cut of a recolour job is not the best way to acheive this.  This is why cloaks are probably the only reskin catagory we will see.

I think the only reason cloaks were added the EQ2 Player Studio was able so the "Program" could offer 2 catagories for each game at launch.

Clearly there are special cases, look at the new EQ2 tinker wagon.  That was given muchos muchos art department love and it is freaking amazing.

The whole Player Studio program is to allow "statement" items to be added to the game, with little or no risk to SoE.  If it sells well they get 60%, if it bombs, well they did not pay much in the way of Dev time.

TL;DR - Reskins are not the way forward for Player Studio and EQ2 cloaks are probably the exception to the rule.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:06 PM   #6
TorrynWoodsrunner

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Reliquary wrote:

TL;DR - Reskins are not the way forward for Player Studio and EQ2 cloaks are probably the exception to the rule.

I have to admit, I'm a little offended that you consider what I'm talking about to be so trivial. It certainly wasn't trivial when SOE held art contests to create new in-game paintings. It certainly isn't trivial when SOE re-textures an existing armor model set to offer new armor looks. I'm not talking about a tint-job or random PS brush twaddle. I'm talking about a total paint job from the ground up, designed to work using existing model resources.

This is -not- trivial work:

That is many hours of work designing the layout, creating the characters, lighting the scene, etc...the only thing not done on this particular image would be adjusting it to an oil painting look. Also, NOT trivial, and NOT a 'recolour' job.

Using the existing house painting models with new texturing also keeps resource load on the game as minimal as possible. If every Player Studio contributor is making their own painting/frame model, what do you think that's going to do to resource load when loading a house? The resource lag is bad enough as it is, don't ya think?

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say.

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Old 02-28-2013, 02:24 PM   #7
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WOW! Awesome job on that graphic! That had to have been a ton of work! Not trivial in the least.

*note* LOL How much do you charge to do character renders like that? I have been wanting a render done of my girls for 3 years now!

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Old 02-28-2013, 03:11 PM   #8
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IceSy, check your PMs. I don't know the SOE policy on discussing things like that in the public forums. 

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Old 02-28-2013, 05:49 PM   #9
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TorrynWoodsrunner,

That's a fantastic painting.

What would be cool is if a few existing picture frames in EQ2 could be chosen, and the necessary texture dimensions be posted here. Then players can submit paintings and include a note "This is for frame #40489432".

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Old 02-28-2013, 05:59 PM   #10
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That's a gorgeous painting. Very impressive.

I don't know the answers but I saw Covic in the thread. He knows a lot more than I do. Maybe he can poke someone to get a frame or two.

Syrah

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Old 02-28-2013, 11:21 PM   #11
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TorrynWoodsrunner wrote:

Reliquary wrote:

TL;DR - Reskins are not the way forward for Player Studio and EQ2 cloaks are probably the exception to the rule.

I have to admit, I'm a little offended that you consider what I'm talking about to be so trivial. It certainly wasn't trivial when SOE held art contests to create new in-game paintings. It certainly isn't trivial when SOE re-textures an existing armor model set to offer new armor looks. I'm not talking about a tint-job or random PS brush twaddle. I'm talking about a total paint job from the ground up, designed to work using existing model resources.

This is -not- trivial work:

That is many hours of work designing the layout, creating the characters, lighting the scene, etc...the only thing not done on this particular image would be adjusting it to an oil painting look. Also, NOT trivial, and NOT a 'recolour' job.

Using the existing house painting models with new texturing also keeps resource load on the game as minimal as possible. If every Player Studio contributor is making their own painting/frame model, what do you think that's going to do to resource load when loading a house? The resource lag is bad enough as it is, don't ya think?

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say.

Well, firstly, I never used the word trivial, that is all you.

Secondly, I am confused, you claim to not be a modeller, then you trot out a highly complex 3D render saying it took you ages to make the models?  #contradictory.

If SoE chooses to reskin their own armour models, that is their business, after all they are paying their own artists salary, also if you read the arcane scriblings of ttobey, you would appreciate why armour skins are the way forward as each piece of armour has to be made 37 times (37 player skeletons in EQ2).  Do you *really* think it is good business sense to allow someone else to colour in a model which SoE paid for, regardless of how pretty the colouring and then give that person 40% of the profit?  Not really.

Yes I acknowledge that is exactly what is happening with cloaks, but as I said, I suspect that was just to offer 2 catagories at launch and because it is probably freaking silly amounts of work to animate them.  Otherwise why is it not possible to submit mesh deforms?

Also, SoE paining comps are not a valid comparison as they were not giving the winner a bunch of cash based on sales.  Some of the new cloaks are 1000SC, which means the player is getting anywhere between $2 and $5 per sale, based on my beermat calc.

You clearly are a 3D artist, despite your claim not to be.  Just knock up your own frame in 30 mins and make a bunch of paintings based of the same frame.  1 extra mesh on houseload is not really an issue TBH.  If you are truly concerned, I'll make a painting frame and put it in the public domain for Playerstudio types.  Heck, you could probably even do that yourself ^_^

Just count yourself lucky that you can submit.  I have a folder full of subs waiting to go and canot submit SMILEY

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Old 03-01-2013, 02:29 AM   #12
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Just so I'm sure to address all the points you brought up, I'm gonna chop this up:

Reliquary wrote:

Well, firstly, I never used the word trivial, that is all you.

----------

No, you never -used- the word trivial. However, your use of language in comparing what I'm talking about to a 'recolour job' presented the implication that you consider it to -be- trivial. If I inferred incorrectly, my bad. Text is an impartial medium.

Reliquary wrote:

Secondly, I am confused, you claim to not be a modeller, then you trot out a highly complex 3D render saying it took you ages to make the models?  #contradictory.

----------

I never said I made the -models-. I said I made the -characters-. Big difference. Let me see if I can explain it...if not for you, than for anyone else who might be confused on the issue.

I use a pre-constructed model, and shape it using mesh deformers, or morph targets, or vertex manipulation, or whatever you want to call it. Here's an example (with hair added):

I didn't build the figure mesh itself. I manipulated the polygons to shape the mesh into the character shape. Similar to the Character Creator in EQ2, just a lot more powerful and complex.

I then paint on a UV template, such as this example (greatly reduced in scale):

The full-size template is 4000x4000 pixels in this case. And this is one of three. There's another for the face, and another for the arms & legs. The same templates are also used to create bump, displacement, and specularity maps.

After painting, the texture is wrapped around the model, resulting in this:

As you can see, it is not a 'recolour job'. It is a texturing job.

Reliquary wrote:

Do you *really* think it is good business sense to allow someone else to colour in a model which SoE paid for, regardless of how pretty the colouring and then give that person 40% of the profit?  Not really.

----------

Yes, *really*. If I -didn't- think it was a good idea, would I be asking the question, or having this discussion? It's far better business sense to make 60% on quality work than make 0% on quality work you aren't getting.

And as far as paying someone to paint on a model you paid for? There's an entire business built on it, and there's an entire profession built around it. The profession is TEXTURE ARTIST, and without them, every video game on the planet would look like complete boring garbage, and films like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings would never have been made (Ralph McQuarrie was a texture artist before the field was really established. Painted entire worlds on a sheet of glass...it's called matte painting. And the cave troll would have looked like a white blob without texture artists).

Reliquary wrote:

You clearly are a 3D artist, despite your claim not to be.  Just knock up your own frame in 30 mins and make a bunch of paintings based of the same frame.

-----------

I never claimed not to be a 3D artist. In fact, one of the first things I said was that I -was- a digital artist. I claimed, accurately, to not be a modeler. If I could 'knock up' my own frame, this thread would never have been created.

Reliquary wrote:

1 extra mesh on houseload is not really an issue TBH.

----------

One mesh, no. But I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in making house paintings. I don't plan on making just one painting, either. And there are already a huge number of paintings already in game, using several different meshes. Just to pick a number, if 50 people including myself made 10 paintings each, each on their own mesh, that's 500 new meshes. And THAT would most definitely have an effect on houseload for anyone who might wish to collect paintings. Using -existing- meshes to create new paintings minimizes that problem. At least I -think- it would. I'm not a coder, either.

Reliquary wrote:

If you are truly concerned, I'll make a painting frame and put it in the public domain for Playerstudio types.

----------

That would be a brilliant and generous gesture on your part, and I'm sure it would be appreciated by many texture artists, including myself.

Anyway, I think I've gone on long enough. I hope that I've detailed what I'm talking about a bit more, for anyone who may have been confused or interested. Anyone has further questions, fire away! As long as the mods don't mind the discussion, I don't mind answering!

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Old 03-01-2013, 08:53 AM   #13
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A picture frame one of the simplest objects one can make in 3D-Max. If you can paint on UVWs as well as you do then it would take you less than an hour to figure out how to make a picture frame. You wouldn't even have to make anything more complicated than four rectangles arranged in a larger rectangle.  People don't go to the art museum to look at the frames even when some of them are fantastic works of art.

With this said if you can't figure it out then get back to me and I will help you, but learning on your own would be better.

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Old 03-01-2013, 12:42 PM   #14
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Actually, I've started working with Hexagon, and I'm coming along. And I certainly appreciate you guys offering to put together frames and make them available. But that kind of misses the overall point I'm trying to make. So let me see if I can detail it out a bit more:

House paintings are one of the most commonly used wall items by the 'average' decorator (those who don't experiment with the layout editor, tiling walls, and so forth). They're quick and easy to place, and a convenient way of breaking up a wall or adding a splash of color.

EQ and EQ2 already have a huge variety of paintings, in a wide selection of frame styles. This isn't a bad thing at all. But it's obvious that many of the paintings share the same frame mesh. The LoN loot card paintings are a good example. This is definitely a good thing, because it minimizes the load impact on homes and guild halls with large numbers of paintings, and allows paintings within a certain series to maintain a consistent look.

That's what I'm suggesting here. SOE selects a specific set of frame meshes, and provides the UV mapping for that set. Ideally, I'd recommend one portrait orientation, one landscape orientation, and one square. Using that frame set, and that frame set alone, for Player Studio painting creation, allows Player Studio paintings to maintain some semblance of uniform look (like the LoN paintings), and keep the mesh resource load to a minimum, as all Player Studio painting artists will be using consistent meshes across the board. This also guarantees that SOE has an optimized mesh immediately out of the gate with house paintings, because they're controlling what mesh or meshes are used from the outset.

While uniquely constructed meshes are essential for other custom-created house items, it's illogical and inefficient for house paintings. Keeping painting meshes unified and consistent frees resource load for the truly unique meshes like the tinkered wagon and other complex pieces, yet still allows painters to contribute new and original pieces to the Player Studio stable. This in turn benefits SOE's revenue stream as they bring in 60% of every new painting sale.

Hope that details the precident I'm trying to see set.

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Old 03-01-2013, 01:05 PM   #15
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Aha... Michael 4 (or 5?), if I'm not mistaken. *grins*

Yes, that type of character works much like the EQ2 character customization screens from when you first create your character or when you go to the barber to update your EQ2 character's look.

Except, as mentioned above, there are perhaps 200 facial adjustment options and around 100 body customization options. Dial-spinning can take hours, but will result in something very unique.

It is *not* modeling.

Using existing painting geometries would, as stated above, make for more consistency and less system / resource drain overall. It would be helpful for several of us, who have skills in making pictures but not so much in modeling.

Can we learn? Perhaps. SMILEY

However, time spent learning is time we're not spending making textures, pictures and paintings -- which is what we want to do.

If 3 painting geometries - "portrait" orientation (vertical rectangle), "landscape" orientation (horizontal rectangle) and square were offered, I expect that there would be several who would make use of that opportunity and focus on making paintings.

Good ones, like the ones from the art contests or like the one posted above, and not just screen-shots put into frames.

This is a [currently] untapped market that SOE could make use of. I hope they will choose to do so. SMILEY

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Old 03-01-2013, 01:30 PM   #16
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I guess i am a old schooler, I use 3d Studio max for everything. ha.. Ifyou are a student or know someone that is a student, Autodesk will provide you it for free with a 3 year license. 

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Old 03-01-2013, 01:38 PM   #17
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This is when one needs to be able to team up ... but the system isn't quite setup for such as far as I know. This isn't like me modeling something for Poser and passing it off to my texturing partner (I like to model more than I like to texture most days).

I know there are some fellow Poser/DS users round here - and if any of you would like some assistance in modeling or other such help, please feel free to PM me. I have a little group of friends who get together and help each other out, and I'm not above making tutorials for people -- though I do use 3dsmax, I try to keep things as simple as possible to apply to other apps.

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Old 03-01-2013, 02:24 PM   #18
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Eden_Evergreen wrote:

Aha... Michael 4 (or 5?), if I'm not mistaken. *grins*

Genesis all the way.  While I'll use the Michael shapes to enhance my own work, I don't rely on them. I like all my characters to look unique.

All three of these characters are built on the Genesis mesh, allowing me to keep a family resemblance:

Nice to see I'm not the only Poser/DAZ Studio artist around.

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Old 03-14-2013, 08:42 PM   #19
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Any further discussion/decision on this from the Powers-that-Be? 

I was thinking that perhaps the templates for the LON paintings would be ideal, as the EQ2 paintings cover portrait and landscape, and the EQ1 paintings appear to be all square. We could cover all the common shapes in one set of templates...

Yes? No?

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