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Old 10-26-2012, 02:27 PM   #31
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It looks like when you end up taking any damage while protector's grit is up it cancels the buff as well as removing the increments... pretty sure it's supposed to last the full 30 seconds so matter what right?

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Old 10-27-2012, 12:31 AM   #32
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I noticed last night, Champion's Interception has a range of merely 18m.  That means the ability won't even be able to affect the healers or the coercer, assuming they are at close to max heal range or beyond.

Xelgad, something must be done.

As things stand, every single ability in the defensive tree except for the priest damage reduction buff is rendered effectively worthless due to the combined range and survivability issues.

Proposed changes:

 o Champion's Intercession should have 30m range, so we're able to use the ability while MT'ing.

 o Champion's Intercession shouldn't transfer any damage at all to the guardian.  Instead, either turn it into a 50% group damage reduction buff, or make it a group stoneskin buff.  Exclude fighters from the valid target list, if need be.

 o Champion's Hatred should generate a great deal more hate, if it shouldn't be revamped entirely.  If the hate stays as it it, it certainly isn't going to be picked by anyone; it just doesn't make enough of a difference.

 o Will of the Champion should be useable while affected by control effects.  The conferred immunity should last for the duration of Champion's Intercession.  Instead of the group cure component, I'd prefer that the control effect immunity be extended to the entire group; it simply makes more sense when you consider that, in order to reduce damage, Champion's Intercession must be used before any given AE hits.

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Old 10-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #33
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we already have saves that dont effect us..

these are supposed ot balance us around so we can tank..

o Champion's Intercession shouldn't transfer any damage at all to the guardian.  Instead, either turn it into a 50% group damage reduction buff, or make it a group stoneskin buff.  Exclude fighters from the valid target list, if need be. if its not going to effect us possibly have it give us 30% block chance for the duration of the buff.

We already have sentry watch on 3 triggers with 30 second duration.  This also doen'st help us much in anyway.. would like to see an addition either with 5 poitns in aa's added to it that give us the chacne to proc the deahtsave on ourselves or increase our avoidance or hp.  so its more useful than what it is now.

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Old 10-27-2012, 02:19 PM   #34
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This could be a chance for them to revamp the way intercepts work..  Either reduce the damage the caster recieves.. or make it interesting and fun to use

increase range to 20m.. remove damage from recieving to the caster but make it to where it puts a ward based on amount of damage it intercepted.. or even better make another button where it stores up this damage its intercepted maybe 5 charges.. at 5th charge it puts a buff on the group that either gives them a ward, a damage increase buff.. or cb/potency buff..

you get 5 intercepts that= 1milloin damage gives the group 15cb.. could be fun and interesting..

Right now intercepting damage isn't balanced for the content.. as it was when it was created.  with mobs ae's hitting so hard its dangerious to use these abilities.

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Old 10-27-2012, 04:12 PM   #35
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Here's my 2 cents. I love guardians. Please give them some attention.

CHAMPION'S INTERCEPTION

I think the idea of an intercept is cool, but like everyone has said.. it'll just kill you.If it's like every other intercept in the game, it will also probably get eaten by something stupid.

Change it to a set 10s, uncancellable duration.  Also just change it to be group wide, or more targets.. it's too unpredictable and unwieldy as-is. The effect radius and range after application need to be correct as well, otherwise you'd have to hug all of them to get any use out of it, and that's a pain. It also needs death immunity from Will of the Champion. Read below.

WILL OF THE CHAMPION

This ability is wrong for reasons beyond casting while controlled. First of all, almost every detrimental effect in the game is either tied to the aoe, or randomly applied in raid. When would you use this ability? Even if you COULD cast it while mez'd or whatever, you'd have to use it solely for that purpose. There is zero potential synergy between this prestige and the primary ability. Never will you be able to use it for both purposes at once.

Make it transfer detrimentals from the group onto the guardian while champion's interception is up, and grant the guardian immunity to control effects. Also, make the guardian immune to death for the duration. It might seem OP, but death immunity isn't the same as damage immunity. They'd come out of it with no wards, no reactives and potentially red HP.. as well as a bunch of detrimentals if they don't get cures. You can have repercussions for a powerful ability without it being suicide. Being forced to take on the group's detrimentals (most of the time) keeps this ability in balance, while providing a superior AOE block-type utility.  I trust our skilled guardian players would put something like this to proper use, without it getting out of control.

CHAMPION'S ARMOR

Increases the damage reduction of the intercept without increasing the damage the guardian takes. I think this one is alright.

CHAMPION'S HATRED

I think the idea of this ability is fine. The values might need tweaking though.

CHAMPION'S STAND

Raid wide priest damage reduction. Sure, why not.

I can't really comment on the dps line, because where guardians are and where guardians should be damage wise is way above my pay grade. However, that's what I would desire for the left side as a defensive, support line. Hell, I'd take this tree in place of MY left side with these changes. It sounds awesome :/

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Old 10-27-2012, 09:14 PM   #36
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Here's my 2 cents. I love guardians. Please give them some attention.

CHAMPION'S INTERCEPTION

I think the idea of an intercept is cool, but like everyone has said.. it'll just kill you.If it's like every other intercept in the game, it will also probably get eaten by something stupid. The effect radius and range after application need to be correct as well, otherwise you'd have to hug all of them to get any use out of it, and that's a pain.

Why not change it to a set, 5s-10s duration, still maintain the 30/20/10% damage transfer, and make the guardian immune to death for the duration? Sure, you'd be wrecking your wards if you're not careful, but death immunity isn't the same as damage immunity. You can have repercussions for a powerful ability without it being suicide. Also just change it to be group wide, or more targets.. it's too unpredictable and unwieldy as-is.

WILL OF THE CHAMPION

This ability is wrong for reasons beyond casting while controlled. First of all, almost every detrimental effect in the game is either tied to the aoe, or randomly applied in raid. Without any semblance of predictability, even if you COULD cast it while mez'd or whatever, you'd have to use it solely for that purpose. There is zero potential synergy between this prestige and the primary ability. Never will you be able to use it for both purposes at once.

Make it transfer detrimentals from the group onto the guardian while champion's interception is up, and grant the guardian immunity to ALL control effects. Again, even in the worse case scenario, the guardian will have death immunity.

I would be absolutely delighted if your suggestion were implemented--group survivability enhancement, group anti-CC utility, and a personal death save, all in one?  Perfect.  

I don't see it happening, though, given that Xelgad has never proven receptive to giving guardians a second death save in addition to Unyielding Will with its 15 min base reuse.  In this particular expansion, he doesn't even seem interested in offering us anything whatsoever that would boost our survivability.  

Not that I see why.  While I do believe guardians are finally back to being the best MT choice for most high-end raid encounters, it isn't as though our survivability is completely overshadowing all other tanks.  Monks are able to do almost as well, and paladins, given the proposed prestige abilities, will undoubtedly be looking better than ever before.

At the bottom line, if guardians didn't have an edge in terms of MT survivability and utility, we would once again find ourselves without a niche to call our own.  It isn't as though we are even remotely close to being best at anything else.

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Old 10-27-2012, 11:12 PM   #37
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Alright, then my suggestion would be to add the death immunity to Will of the Champion, instead of on champion's interception itself. That way, you'll be forced to risk taking on a large quantity of detrimentals if you want to use it as a death prevent. This would also include the occasional "no hostile / no beneficial" that you'd still get stuck with, depending how often that's used. I think that's a fair amount of balance for a death prevent.

Especially a death prevent that would already mean taking huge amounts of damage, stripping yourself of all your wards and reactives, as well as not stacking with other death prevents.

When you put it that way, it almost sounds like a bad idea.. unless it's in the right hands.

I trust our skilled guardian players would put something like this to proper use, without it getting out of control.

The only concern is that too many detrimentals will stack on the guardian and he will come out of it in awful shape, prone to death. I really don't think this will be as big of an issue as it seems. Sure, one healing curing would take a while, but 6 detrimentals goes away very quickly as long as priests are paying attention. Precast cure on their own groups, then one single target cure each on the guardian and he'd be completely clear.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:55 AM   #38
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So after testing these abilities in a raid setting.

[email protected] wrote:

Defensive Tree

Champions's Interception - Intercedes all damage for 12 seconds for 5 group members. Caster takes 30%, targets take 70%.

I'm not too impressed with Champion's Interception. Group wide intercept, we can't even use it in raids because it will kill us. Even taking 30% damage from each person in group, thats 150% damage from intercept then 100% from it hitting me already.

At 3 points does 50/10. Not bad, the inc damage isnt too high. However I am worried that there will still be the ocasional death due to intercede damage. Furthermore, the big issue I am going to have with this ability is the amount of stoneskins im going to burn through on weak damage. I would rather this ability be changed to a kinda reverse tower of stone, grants grp members 3-5 stoneskin triggers (does not apply to tanks). Either that or I would like it if the last rank was 50/0 or even 70/0 would be better if you are worried about it being OP.

Will of the Champion - Cures roots and mez off targets. Guardian becomes immune to these effects for a short duration. I can cure root and mez. What is this? PvP prestige?

At 3 points this cures 157 levels of stifle, stun, daze, fear, mez, root. Grants immunity against effects for 5 seconds. This ability can come in handy, however the issue of not being able to cast it while under these effects kinda makes the whole "cure" portion useless. Make it castable under these effects and we are good to go.

Champion's Armor - 3% damage reduction to targets. - The reduced damage is an ok one. (3 ranks)

At 3 points damage reduction is 9% for all grp members besides the caster. This one still isnt bad, just means the grp takes even less damage.

Champion's Hatred - 5% of the unmitigated damage is applied as hate? Doesn't seem like its even worth the points.(3 ranks)

At 3 points 15% of the unmitigated damage is applied as hate. This one still isnt that impressive, Its just a little extra hate.

Champions Stand - 10% damage reduction to all priest (maintained) I like this one (1 rank)

I still like this ability, doesnt need to be changed in any way.

Offensive Tree

Defender's Charge - Inflicts double damage if not tanking. Minor damage that puts up a 30sec buff that procs minor damage and 3% damage reduction for the guardian for every CA used, Not bad but not sure if its worth the offensive tree. (3 ranks)

With 3 points this ability is on a 6 sec recast, it actually becomes our most powerful CA and the buff can be maintained at all times.

Defender's Power - Increase damage of Defenders charge by 50%. Makes it a little better but meh. (3 ranks)

With the extra damage it becomes our most powerful CA.

Blades of Protection - adds 1 additional strike - meh (3 ranks)

With 3 points its an extra 20-30k damage with each hit. So not horrible by any means.

Defensive Bulwark - Increases the damage reduction by 1% - so 6% total? /meh (3 ranks)

With 3 points its 6% damage reduction every time you use a CA, not bad, not bad at all.

Protecting Spirit - Increases the duration of Grit by 10 seconds and adds a second strike to defenders charge.  So 40 seconds, its not bad but thats a lot of wasted points imo.

I feel the extra 10 seconds is a waste since the CA is a 6 sec recast, would like so see a better end ability.

Middle Tree?

Stalwart Conviction - Passively increase stamina bonus - more hp isnt bad.

With 3 points it was around 7k hp for myself. Like i said, more hp isnt bad.

Shield Bash - deal damage on a block. This one isnt bad but it isnt good either.

So basically its another Reversal but only procs on blocks. Wasnt that impressed and I wouldnt waste the point.

So overall the offensive side isnt bad besides the end line kinda sucks since you can keep this up at all times, theres no reason for the extra 10 seconds. The defensive side needs a couple changes, something to stop the extra damage or at the very least stop the wasted stoneskins on 1k hits. Champions Interception should also be allowed to cast while under control effects since it can cure them. Lastly Champions Interception needs its ranged increased, its currently 18 meters, it needs to be 25-35 meters so it hits the healers and coercer.

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:05 AM   #39
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Bunji wrote:

Guardian

Purchasing Champion's Interception now grants Champion's Watch and Champion's Interception. Champion's Watch is a group spell that increments Champion's Sight whenever a non-fighter is hit by an enemy. Champion's Sight increments to 50. Champion's Interception consumes Champion's Sight and applies damage reduction based on the number of increments of Champion's Sight consumed. The damage reduction is 1% per increment to non-fighters in the group. This spell can be toggled off early. Higher ranks lower the base reuse time from 36 seconds to 24 seconds to 12 seconds. If Champion's Interception is toggled off early, it restores up to 75% of the increments of Champion's Sight it consumed.

Will of the Guardian now reduces the base cast time of Champion's Interception by 0.5 seconds per rank and increases the duration by 1 second per rank.

Champion's Armor is now Champion's Shout. It allows Champion's Interception to increase the guardian's threat generation by 0.4% per rank per increment.

Champion's Hatred is now Champion's Glare. Champion's Glare grants a 15% chance per rank for Champion's Watch to grant an extra increment of Champion's Sight. Additionally, when toggling off Champion's Interception early, the guardian will gain 2 extra increments of Champion's Sight per rank.

I'm not sure how it translates into gaming terms, but a couple of comments:

1- Threat generation increase is already maxed in my case (caped to 100%), therefore I can't see much benefit unless this buff goes beyond the cap limit

2- Cure stun/fear/... isn't mentioned any more. Worth logging into beta again to see what happened with it.

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Old 10-30-2012, 07:45 AM   #40
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I've posted a screen of it on a certain other site, looks a little strange and I've not had time to play around with it yet since I'm at work.

I'm assuming Champions watch is a "Until Cancelled" or "Passive" buff, when this is active we'll gain Champions Sight points whenever a non fighter takes damage. 

The number of points then either give us benefits, or can be used in Champions Interception.

It looks like an interesting ability and I really want to log in and test it

Only things I'd currently say without testing is:

Champions shout: Increases the Guardians threat generation by 0.4% per increment.

This is a maximum of 50 increments, so 20%, if this is simply hate mod then I can't see the benefit of taking it since every raid MT I know tries to stay at the 100% cap when raiding. This needs to be able to count even when we're at cap.

Some of this extra hate gain will be sacrificed when Champions interception is used since we use up the infrements when using it.

I would actually much prefer this to grant us damage reduction, maybe up to 10%, so 0.2 per increment, this way we can either build it up to limit our damage, or use the points to limit the groups damage.  This is our defensive line, why is it increasing hate?

Without testing I can't be sure, but the way to gain the points doesn't seem quite right, on fights with reactive damage we'll gain them pretty quickly, but on fights with 1 Large AOE and control effects we won't gain points at all really and these are the fights we'll need them. 

The ability will therfore be very situational, some fights granting us lots of points with maybe not many uses for them, and other fights giving us no points when we'll be wanting to use the ability the most. This situational aspect needs to be fixed so the ability is always useful. 

Ideally this fix needs to be so that a skilled Guardian can gain more points quicker rather than it being luck based. If that isn't possible then I'd suggest we also gain points when the Guardian blocks, maybe even add this effect to "Will of the Champion"  so we havea  consistent way of gaining points.

EG:

Will of the Champion.

Reduces the base cast time of Champions Interception by 1 second.Improves the duration of Champions Interception by 1 second.Grants a 10% Chance to increment Champions Sight on a successful block.

so 3 points we'd have a 30% chance per block.

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Old 10-30-2012, 09:32 AM   #41
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Posted the abilities as well on the "Other" site.

Champions Watch - 

Until Cancelled35m Range

When any damage is received this spell will cast Champions Sight on Target. Lasts for 1 Hour.

Allows the use of Champions Interception.Cannot be modified, blah.If not Fighter.

Interception is what it says on the tin.

I'm still very sceptical of how often this will proc on some fights to give us points and how situational it will be. I've not tested persistence through death of the points, useage, etc. I think Persisting these points through death is quite important, starting each fight after a wipe with zero points, or after being rezzed on fights with forced deaths won't be a good thing.

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:28 AM   #42
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With the watch stacks.. they should actually add something beneficial for the guardian

.5 block%

.2% damage reduction

.5% Max health

.2 accuracy

.2 strikethrough

so if we had 50 things up we'd have a nice lil survivability buff on us

25% block chance increase

10% damage reduction

25% max health increase

10% accuracy

10% strikethrough..

Since our survivability doens't match a monk.. and our offensiviness while turtled up isn't high, this would give us an edge in the survivability.

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Old 10-30-2012, 12:24 PM   #43
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Brildean wrote:

With the watch stacks.. they should actually add something beneficial for the guardian

.5 block%

.2% damage reduction

.5% Max health

.2 accuracy

.2 strikethrough

so if we had 50 things up we'd have a nice lil survivability buff on us

25% block chance increase

10% damage reduction

25% max health increase

10% accuracy

10% strikethrough..

Since our survivability doens't match a monk.. and our offensiviness while turtled up isn't high, this would give us an edge in the survivability.

Any 1 of those would be acceptable, all together is OP, I've never found Accuracy or Strikethrough to do a great deal though and it's the defensive line so personally I'd rather not have either of those. 

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Old 10-30-2012, 03:45 PM   #44
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Champion's Interception

The idea as such isn't a bad one, but the devil is in the details.

1) Increment gain rate:

If Champion's Watch is triggered by any damage attributed to the named, then it should be possible to earn a fair deal of increments pretty quickly.

If, on the other hand, Champion's Watch doesn't trigger off damage shields or damage-whenever-you-spend-power buffs and only counts auto-attack and AE hits, then either the increment gain rate is going to be way too low, or the bonuses associated with one increment are too weak.

Worst case scenario, a hit means taking at least 1 point of damage, so 100% warded or avoided (i.e., parried, dodged, blocked) hits don't count.  In that case, the ability is effectively useless.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that only AE hits and auto-attacks count.  I'm further assuming that warded hits do count.  I'm ignoring the fact that a lot of AE's are blocked on raids.  Given afforementioned assumptions, most fights will see around 5 increments (7.25 with Champion's Glare) gained per 30 sec.  Let's call it 7.25 per 30 sec, or 0.24 per second.

In order for Champion's Watch to be used effectively as an AE damage reducer that allows group members to not joust ordinary hard-hitting AE's, the damage reduction must be around 30%, higher in some cases, which translates to 30 increments or 124 seconds spent building up increments.  So, after a full two minutes without any tangible benefit from Champion's Watch whatsoever, we get to reduce the incoming AE damage on the group (fighters excluded) by 30%.

That's not exactly great, if you ask me.  While the end result (i.e., 50% damage reduction vs an AE) is nice, it should be possible to ramp up the increment count much faster than what currently seems to be the case.

How about adding a chance to proc increments to the guardian's taunts?

2) I don't like the "if toggled off early" part.  It's an unnecessary bit of micro-management.  Everyone is going to toggle it off early, since the increment gain rate is going to be completely silly otherwise (i.e., more than two minutes to build up to anything moderately useful, or almost four minutes for the max effect), so what purpose does it serve but to introduce something that, at best, isn't fun, and at worst, is annoying.

When used, Champion's Interception should consume 25% of all current increments.  It should still add 1% damage reduction for each total increment, including ones not consumed.

Champion's Glare should add its increment bonus whenever Champion's Interception is used.

3) Champion's Shout adds threat generation per increment, which constitutes a complete waste of an AA ability.  Every guardian worth their salt is already sitting at the cap of 100% threat generation, so additional threat doesn't do anything.  

Even if the threat generation cap were abolished, the bonus from Champion's Shout lasts only a few seconds, often coinciding with the aftereffects of an AE, such as stun, daze, or stifle, even further marginalizing any potential effect it could have had.

This one is just entirely wrong.

4) Will of the Champion increases the duration of Champion's Interception, which isn't really that relevant; we only want to get the group through an AE hit, after which the group won't be taking any significant damage for a while.  

It also reduces the cast time, which, while relevant, is unreasonable.  What is up with a guardian save with 1.5 s base cast time?  We aren't crusaders.  Almost all our buffs and CA's have base cast times of 0.5 sec or less.  We shouldn't have to pay 3 AA points just to turn Champion's Interception into what it should have been from the outset.

Please change the base cast time to instantaneous and replace this ability with something that adds an additional effect to Champion's Interception, say knockback/stun/stifle/fear/root/force target immunity.

5) There aren't any new abilities outside our offensive tree which actually improves guardian survivability.  Even monks, which sure as hell aren't in bad shape right now, are getting defensive utility (ward, CC immunity), so why aren't we?

I propose that Champion's Shout be changed to afford the guardian 0.25% - 0.5% damage reduction or Max HP per counter for the duration of Champion's Interception.

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Old 10-30-2012, 03:50 PM   #45
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

 This is our defensive line, why is it increasing hate?

wat.

You would rather it be in the offensive line, so you rip aggro when trying to dps?

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:00 PM   #46
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Shield Bash.  Why this ability?  

It is pretty easy to see that it will parse 5 - 6 times better than Reversal rank 4.  Looking at boss fights in PoW, Reveral/Gladiator Strike parses 700 - 1100 DPS, depending on the fight.  That would put Shield Bash in the 4000 - 6000 DPS range, which isn't going to do much to improve a 150K - 200K parse.

How about a defensive endline for the most defensive fighter class?  There are lots of options, the best of which involve Max HP%, stoneskins, and Damage Reduction.

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:23 PM   #47
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

 This is our defensive line, why is it increasing hate?

wat.

You would rather it be in the offensive line, so you rip aggro when trying to dps?

lol at a guardian ripping agro while in dps mode but ya it's in the right place, just meh overall.

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:03 PM   #48
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Regarding Champions Interception 

Having the an endline revolve around a 15 second game of toggle-off is not entertaining at all

I think something along these lines for Champions Interception would be a more interesting/fun way to deal with the spell.

- 90 second duration 

- no toggle feature

- change increments and damage reduction as needed for balance.

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:22 PM   #49
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amgx wrote:

Regarding Champions Interception 

Having the an endline revolve around a 15 second game of toggle-off is not entertaining at all

I think something along these lines for Champions Interception would be a more interesting/fun way to deal with the spell.

- 90 second duration 

- no toggle feature

- change increments and damage reduction as needed for balance.

The toggle feature is unnecessary, but turning Champion's Interception into a 90 sec buff isn't the answer.  The damage reduction would be way too low for it to be useful as an anti-AE tool, which is the only non-situational use for the ability in a raid context.

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:33 PM   #50
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Davngr1 wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

 This is our defensive line, why is it increasing hate?

wat.

You would rather it be in the offensive line, so you rip aggro when trying to dps?

lol at a guardian ripping agro while in dps mode but ya it's in the right place, just meh overall.

It basically won't do anything because we're encouraged to toggle this ability off to keep triggers, giving us minor amounts of hate (Max 20%) for a couple of seconds on our "Defensive" line is stupid. My comment wasn't that Guardians don't need hate as well as survivability it was because the defensive line currently does nothing directly to help the Guardian defensively.

This prestige adds a maximum of 20% hate gain for up to 15 seconds, on an ability that also reduces damage to the group,  if we want to use it again soon we want to toggle it off early to save triggers. The Hate gain will be up usually for 2-3 seconds.

This needs to be some form of defensive utility tied to the number of triggers as it currently is. If not defensive utility then it at least needs to be something the Guardian will want during the times the ability will most commonly be used, prior to and during large AOE's. Things like, CC Immunity (Which has been removed), Damage Reduction, Max HP, Block Chance, Base Avoidance, Reactive Heal, Ward. 

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:04 PM   #51
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As a small spin on the defensive stat, maybe something similar to the below as an idea.

Champions Shout - Rename to - Champions Armour.

Grants 0.05% per rank Damage reduction per Champions Sight to Champions Watch (The until cancelled buff)

3 ranks would be 0.15% DR per point, max of 50 points = 7.5% DR

This would grant at most 7.5% damage reduction, when we wanted to protect the group on AOE's we'd be sacrificing some of the damage reduction that had built up. Alternatively the group can joust/AOE avoid and the Guardian can keep the DR. It gives a little more trade off and descision making in how/when the ability is used by giving us a reason not to use Champions Interception in some cases. 

The micromanagement of the ability then actually provides benefits because we keep more of our built up DR, rather than just being an annoyance.

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:56 AM   #52
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Champion's Interception

The idea as such isn't a bad one, but the devil is in the details.

1) Increment gain rate:

If Champion's Watch is triggered by any damage attributed to the named, then it should be possible to earn a fair deal of increments pretty quickly.

If, on the other hand, Champion's Watch doesn't trigger off damage shields or damage-whenever-you-spend-power buffs and only counts auto-attack and AE hits, then either the increment gain rate is going to be way too low, or the bonuses associated with one increment are too weak.

Worst case scenario, a hit means taking at least 1 point of damage, so 100% warded or avoided (i.e., parried, dodged, blocked) hits don't count.  In that case, the ability is effectively useless.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that only AE hits and auto-attacks count.  I'm further assuming that warded hits do count.  I'm ignoring the fact that a lot of AE's are blocked on raids.  Given afforementioned assumptions, most fights will see around 5 increments (7.25 with Champion's Glare) gained per 30 sec.  Let's call it 7.25 per 30 sec, or 0.24 per second.

In order for Champion's Watch to be used effectively as an AE damage reducer that allows group members to not joust ordinary hard-hitting AE's, the damage reduction must be around 30%, higher in some cases, which translates to 30 increments or 124 seconds spent building up increments.  So, after a full two minutes without any tangible benefit from Champion's Watch whatsoever, we get to reduce the incoming AE damage on the group (fighters excluded) by 30%.

That's not exactly great, if you ask me.  While the end result (i.e., 50% damage reduction vs an AE) is nice, it should be possible to ramp up the increment count much faster than what currently seems to be the case.

How about adding a chance to proc increments to the guardian's taunts?

2) I don't like the "if toggled off early" part.  It's an unnecessary bit of micro-management.  Everyone is going to toggle it off early, since the increment gain rate is going to be completely silly otherwise (i.e., more than two minutes to build up to anything moderately useful, or almost four minutes for the max effect), so what purpose does it serve but to introduce something that, at best, isn't fun, and at worst, is annoying.

When used, Champion's Interception should consume 25% of all current increments.  It should still add 1% damage reduction for each total increment, including ones not consumed.

Champion's Glare should add its increment bonus whenever Champion's Interception is used.

3) Champion's Shout adds threat generation per increment, which constitutes a complete waste of an AA ability.  Every guardian worth their salt is already sitting at the cap of 100% threat generation, so additional threat doesn't do anything.  

Even if the threat generation cap were abolished, the bonus from Champion's Shout lasts only a few seconds, often coinciding with the aftereffects of an AE, such as stun, daze, or stifle, even further marginalizing any potential effect it could have had.

This one is just entirely wrong.

4) Will of the Champion increases the duration of Champion's Interception, which isn't really that relevant; we only want to get the group through an AE hit, after which the group won't be taking any significant damage for a while.  

It also reduces the cast time, which, while relevant, is unreasonable.  What is up with a guardian save with 1.5 s base cast time?  We aren't crusaders.  Almost all our buffs and CA's have base cast times of 0.5 sec or less.  We shouldn't have to pay 3 AA points just to turn Champion's Interception into what it should have been from the outset.

Please change the base cast time to instantaneous and replace this ability with something that adds an additional effect to Champion's Interception, say knockback/stun/stifle/fear/root/force target immunity.

5) There aren't any new abilities outside our offensive tree which actually improves guardian survivability.  Even monks, which sure as hell aren't in bad shape right now, are getting defensive utility (ward, CC immunity), so why aren't we?

I propose that Champion's Shout be changed to afford the guardian 0.25% - 0.5% damage reduction or Max HP per counter for the duration of Champion's Interception.

1. It's the gain I'm most worried about, I've not managed to test it still annoyingly but I have a feeling that it's going to be close to your worst case scenario.

Basically if something will trigger a reactive heal, it will trigger this ability and increment the value. This will skip lots of potential triggers and the build up of points will be very slow.

Having some way to generate our own points in a realiable way, so we can build up points for needed events would be the ideal. 

It all depends on the rate though and no one has posted tests on speed of point build up yet.

2. I don't mind the toggle off early part, in most games, how well you can micromanage things has a bearing on how good a player you are. I do think we need a little more benefit to good micromanagement than simple point gain though, without this there really isn't much point in micromanaging.

3. Agree completely, I'd much rather have some defensive ability here that effects the Guardian.

4. As well as the stupid long cast time, the Prestige is broken. The first point only reduced the cast time by 0.5 seconds for me and it states 1 second. The second point then states 0.5 seconds.  I've currently not got the points to spend another to see if the second and third work as per description.

Please return the CC immunity here instead of this.

stifle, stun, daze, fear, mez, root, 1 point per 2 immunities as it was previously and make the ability castable while under those effects as they're purchased.

The curing isn't really needed, just the immunity for the duration of Interception or until toggled off.

5. This is what happened to us previously and how Guardians got left behind. We're perceived as being where we need to be so others are given abilities and we're left pretty much as is. The problem with this is that each little addition adds up over time. If one or more tanks need a boost then give them the boost thats needed but those tanks that are already relatively balanced need to be given similar quality tools to keep them balanced. 

I completely agree we should get Defensive utility instead of Champions Shout.

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:48 AM   #53
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Champions Shout - Rename to - Champions Armour.

Grants 0.05% per rank Damage reduction per Champions Sight to Champions Watch (The until cancelled buff)

3 ranks would be 1.5% DR per point, max of 50 points = 7.5% DR

...

The micromanagement of the ability then actually provides benefits because we keep more of our built up DR, rather than just being an annoyance.

I vote for this one !!

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:59 AM   #54
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[email protected] wrote:

amgx wrote:

Regarding Champions Interception 

Having the an endline revolve around a 15 second game of toggle-off is not entertaining at all

I think something along these lines for Champions Interception would be a more interesting/fun way to deal with the spell.

- 90 second duration 

- no toggle feature

- change increments and damage reduction as needed for balance.

The toggle feature is unnecessary, but turning Champion's Interception into a 90 sec buff isn't the answer.  The damage reduction would be way too low for it to be useful as an anti-AE tool, which is the only non-situational use for the ability in a raid context.

The reasoning behind the thought of a longer time was that you would use something else to protect your group while you wait for your increments to mature, and ideally have 30 sec or so of maximum group damage reduction at the backend of the spell. This is something I could plan for and would most likely count on to be there when needed. It seems better than constantly tracking a short timer for incremental data.

Overall I think the left side is looking weak for most content, as it may only be worthwhile in extremely punishing encounters. 100% aoe protection for the group hasn't been a problem so far if we add a Warden for 2 extra protects and we very rarely need that type of protection.

Protecting the group from stun/stifle/fear/etc is something that could be useful and I wouldn't mind seeing that put back in somewhere.

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Old 11-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #55
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Changes Guardian

1. Champion's Shout now properly increases the guardian's threat (or reduces it if the guardian is in Recklessness) by a percentage of the damage they inflict while Champion's Interception is active.

2. Champion's Interception can be used through most control effects.

1.New Description - Champion's Interception will increase the guardian's threat by x% of their damage inflicted per increment. If the guardian has recklessness active, their threat is reduced instead.

percentages are 0.4%, 0.8%, 1.2%.

So up to a total of 60% Damage inflicted with 50 increments and max points.

If I'm doing 200k DPS (Already 400k hate per second), that's 120k hate per second this ability will generate while active. While it's a nice little extra it won't encourage many Guardians to keep the ability active at the expense of increments so I can't see that many taking it over.

I'm still of the opinion though that the Defensive Line needs to give some sort of direct benefit to the guardian defensively. Is some damage reduction that much to ask for when other fighters get defensive lines that actually directly contribute to their survivability.

2.This adds more reason to add CC immunity per point back to the ability again. 

Please change champions will, to include this CC immunity to the group, it doesn't have to effect the Guardian. The cast time should be 0.5 seconds as a base anyway, not, 1.5, leave the duration as 12 seconds, More often than not this ability will be toggled off early so increasing the duration really isn't required.

I'd much rather Champions Will was changed to what it was before or similar to the below.

1 point- Adds Champions Will as an effect to Guardians Interception. Duration 3 seconds.- Grants Root and Mesmerise Immunity.

2 point- Increases the Duration of Champions Will by 1 second.- Grants Daze and Stifle Immunity

3 points- Increases the Duration of Champions Will by 1 second.- Grants Stun and Fear Immunity

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:09 AM   #56
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I was grouping last night and have a couple of observations on both the left and right lines. My main point is though, we need a UI window dedicated to the point counts. Keeping an eye on the maintained window and finding the buff amongst others in there wasn't very intuitive.

1. A new UI component to track specific spells increment count.

-Adding to the Window.

Right click the spell in the maintained window and choose "Track Increments".

The Spell will now appear in the new window If and only if it has more than one count.

I can then track my own abilities, and any others in my group that effects me, EG the fury pot increase. The abilities I'm tracking won't appear unless I'm grouped with that class and they have the prestige because the won't appear unless it actually has increments.

A UI Modder could probably make something similar to the Dragonwulf UI Spell timer to do this from a text file of spell names pretty easily, this Window may even acheive what I want out of the box.

Onto the left side.

1. The point gain was very slow while heroic grouping. It will probably be ok on more intensive raid fights but could do with another way to gain triggers on fights when the group takes less damage.2. I couldn't judge the point gain properly because every couple of minutes the increments of Champions Sight would reset without using Champions Interception. One minute they'd be at 20+ the next back down to 1.3. After 2 hours of grouping I hadn't managed to use Champions Interception with more than 25 points in it. I was able to use it with about 15 points pretty often, about every 30 seconds I'd guess.4. I really wanted to get the 10% Damage reduction to priests but after spending 3 points in Champions Glare I was loath to waste points in Will or Shout, both need something to make them desirable. 5. I noticed zero noticable benefit to myself or the group while Interception was active while grouping. The damage reduction will help while raiding, but the line needs something for heroic tanks.

So, I switched to the right line, my assumption of how this works is..

Defenders Charge is cast.

Every CA for the duration of Protectors Grit will pop a counter of Grit that will last either 10(20 with max prestige) seconds, or until you take damage equivilent to the 3% (6 with max prestige) damage reduction.

The max number of counts of Grit you can have is 3, this is on the examine of the ability.

1. Should Protectors Grit cancel after 1 CA?2. I didn't ever see the counter on Grit get above 1, I'm assuming because Protectors Grit cancels.3. The cancellation damage amount of Grit increments could do with clarification. How much is equivilent damage to 3% damage reduction?

*Edit* the only way I've found to increment this ability is to not get hit hard enough to drop charges, this way each time you use Defenders Charge and a Subsequent CA you gain an Increment, I'm not sure if this is by design because nothing in the description of Protectors Grit states it will drop after it procs 1 increment of Grit.

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:14 PM   #57
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Is this seriously it?  No response to our feedback?  No suggestions taken to heart?  

We're just going to be left without any kind of personal survivability upgrades and a group AE damage reduction buff that won't even be a decent alternative to an AE blocker until we are four minutes into a raid fight, nerfed into oblivion from its original cast-whenever-you-please (i.e., no increment nonsense), group-curing, control effect-immuning incarnation?

And if we die, we start over building increments?  Heck, even if we don't die, the increment count just randomly resets.  The whole thing is just a frigging joke.

This is quite frankly the worst set of AA's the guardian class has ever received in an expansion.  

Why, pray tell?  

We are barely holding on to our but recently reclaimed niche as the most defensive MT class as things stand.  Our DPS while wielding a shield is the lowest of all fighters.  Our utility is solely related to aggro management and a highly situational bit of MT group survivability.

Monks are just behind us in survivability and are quite capable of MT'ing any current content.  On top of that, they utterly destroy us in both the DPS and utility departments.  So why aren't we getting some solid, non-situational MT group utility and/or personal survivability to balance out the massive advantages of monks?

Given their new AA's, paladins are now able to shield themselves against more non-physical AE's and death touches than guardians: Manawall, Legionnaire's Conviction, and their new damage immunity buff vs ToS, Last Man Standing, and Perfect Counter; check out the recast times and see for yourself.  Their shortage of such abilities in the live game remains the only reason why paladins haven't been MT'ing during DoV and SS.  Yet now, they have all they need.  They also have one hell of a lot more HP than us (due to percentage-based HP buffs vs our static ones), plus self-wards, plus percentage-based self-heals, plus superior DPS and sustained hate generation.

So what do we bring to the table to compensate?  A little more mitigation that isn't needed since the mitigation cap remains way too easy to hit?  A group death save (i.e., Sentry Watch) that half the time doesn't work because it's sorely limited range doesn't cover all the group in a ranged fight?  I sure as hell hope most raid fights will require a lot of snaps, since that's the only substantial advantage we've got left.  A group damage reduction spell that can't be used except once in a blue moon certainly isn't adding much to the scales in our favor.

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:42 PM   #58
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Yet another attempt at rectifying the sorry state of affairs:

Regarding Champion's Interception:

    o Add one increment every time we successfully use our single-target taunt.

    o Add control effect immunity to the group (including the guardian) to Champion's Interception.

    o Add a single stoneskin or a death save or a few percent of damage reduction or a few percent of max HP to the guardian for the duration of Champion's Interception.

    o Allow Champion's Interception to be cast instantaneously.

Regarding Shield Bash:

    o Please exchange this for something defensive: max HP%, damage reduction, Unyielding Will (i.e., our 15 min reuse death save) base reuse reduction, Tower of Stone base reuse reduction, Tower of Stone base cast time reduction, etc.

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Old 11-03-2012, 08:38 AM   #59
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Posting again even though I think we're now being ignored! I wasn't even suprised when I saw the patch notes Yesterday and Guardians were pretty much the only class not mentioned

Right side - Parses fine, just need clarification/fixes on the issues posted a couple of posts previously, IE: Increment Gain of Grit, Damage threshold Grit will drop.

Left side - Needs a lot of work, some parts are broken, others are just terrible. I second the view that these are the worst AA/Prestige choices Guardians have ever been given of an expansion.

The idea behind this line is sound and could provide very useful utility, in practice it's currently not working though.

Guardians aren't exactly in dire straights like some tanks were/are infact I think we're pretty much balanced where we need to be. Which is exactly why this line needs to give meaningful utility, be that in the form of direct defensive utility/group utility etc. Previously Guardians fell behind the curve because other tanks were gradually bumped up and up over a period of years while Guardians stayed the same. Being given terrible Prestiges while others are given useful ones is exactly how this happened. Basically, there is Relative balance between a lot of tank classes, we need meaningful Prestige choices so this balance is kept.

Problems -

a. Very slow point gain.b. Lack of Direct Defensive utility for the Guardian.c. Sight Increments are broken and resetting.d. Conflicting Benefits.

Will of the Champion

The base 1.5 second cast time is too long, I may be being cynical but it seems it's been set this long just so we can have a prestige to reduce it. 

We're encouraged to toggle Champions Interception off early, and have another prestige which directly increases the benefits of turning it off early. Extending it's duration in this prestige is in conflict with the other prestige (Champions Glare) and the initial ability and provides next to zero benefit. 

Set it's base recast down to 0.5 seconds and give us something useful here please. The CC immunity which was originally here would be ideal, if not this then please give us something which will actually be useful.

Champions Shout Armour  - 

As already pointed out the Hate gain from this ability is very low, especially when as above we're encouraged to toggle the ability off early. This needs changing so it doesn't conflict and is instead a meaningful addition to the ability.

Something as basic as 0.15% Damage reduction per increment will apply to the Guardian when Guardians Interception is active.This will give a maximum of 7.5% Damage reduction at 50 points.

Personally though I like the idea of having the damage reduction on Champions Watch, so when we use Interception it reduces the damage reduction we've built up for ourselves and grants it to the group. Even though the Guardian then sacrifices a little of his built up survivability to help his group, it provides utility on all those fights where you don't need to cast Interception and actually brings the ability closer to it's original idea.

Champions Glare

Leave the toggle off early part, this is a nice addition to the micromanagement of the ability. The other benefit of this ability is to grant a 45% chance to trigger a second Increment to Champtions Sight. 

We could do with a way to gain increments that isn't wholly dependant on our group getting damaged so the ability isn't as situational as it is.

Can we change this second part so each Taunt has a 45% chance to increment Champions Sight instead?

Shield Bash

This ability was parsing 1k DPS for me last night, rather than taking one of our worst AA's (Reversal) and copying it, can we please have something a little more substantial. Traditionally one of our weakest areas as a class is AOE DPS and Hate, during TSO there where the Mutagenic Burst items, which prooved popular and helped a lot with this weak area. A Proc similar, maybe on a 25% chance on a block would be very nice.

- On a block this spell has a 25% chance to cast Shield Bash.

Inflicts 1200-2500 (1/4 of current proc amount) crushing damage on targets in area effect.

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Old 11-03-2012, 01:38 PM   #60
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Champions Glare

Leave the toggle off early part, this is a nice addition to the micromanagement of the ability. The other benefit of this ability is to grant a 45% chance to trigger a second Increment to Champtions Sight. 

We could do with a way to gain increments that isn't wholly dependant on our group getting damaged so the ability isn't as situational as it is.

Can we change this second part so each Taunt has a 45% chance to increment Champions Sight instead?

No, no, no.  That's just trading one way of gaining increments for another; in fact, you'd be reducing the overall increment gain rate.  We need an additional way of gaining increments in order to raise the overall gain rate and render it less situational.

If you look at this purely objectively, Xelgad should do away with the increments entirely and just give us a group buff that lasts 12 sec and confers control effect immunity to everyone, 50% damage reduction to the group, and 25% damage reduction to the guardian.  Base reuse 120 sec, so it would be up every 60 sec with max reuse.  

However, since I'm about a lightyear away from Xelgad's position on where guardians should be, I'm trying to come up with less objectively reasonable alternatives that still don't screw us over completely.

Shield Bash

This ability was parsing 1k DPS for me last night, rather than taking one of our worst AA's (Reversal) and copying it, can we please have something a little more substantial. Traditionally one of our weakest areas as a class is AOE DPS and Hate, during TSO there where the Mutagenic Burst items, which prooved popular and helped a lot with this weak area. A Proc similar, maybe on a 25% chance on a block would be very nice.

- On a block this spell has a 25% chance to cast Shield Bash.

Inflicts 1200-2500 (1/4 of current proc amount) crushing damage on targets in area effect.

I'd rather have the current pile of crap version of Shield Bash than anything with the term "AE" in it, which might potentially serve to even moderately dilute our role.  We are the single-target MT's.  Paladins and monks are the multi-mob MT's (I won't say "defensive", since that implies lacking DPS, which those two classes most assuredly do not), or at least they do way better than we do in that role.

Shield Bash should become a defensive tool, or if it can't be that, then it should do one of the following while wearing a shield: substantially boost all our taunts or all our CA's or our threat gain above the 100% cap or our base auto-attack damage.  It shouldn't be a tiny increase in DPS that I couldn't be bothered to waste an AA point on.

Now, the preceding AA ability that effectively adds a max HP percentage bonus, that's what I'm talking about; I'd love to see something guardian-only in that regard.

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