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Old 08-24-2012, 12:34 PM   #31
Yimway

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[email protected] wrote:

Since it would be impossible to remove leaping/flying mounts from the game (from some angles) why not put limits on them? Limit leaping and flying to be within range from the ground so people stand a chance of getting hit. Why not enable some kind of in-air pvp where you are always within ground range and have your flying speed disabled until combat is broken, and have a greater chance of being knocked from your mount and damaged by the fall, or have both opponents airborne with the same risk of falling? The mechanics can't be that different from fighting in water, can they?

Removing those mounts from nagafen would be a much, much simpler 'fix'.  The code needed to do what you suggest is extensive.

If these mounts 'break pvp' then their just shouldn't be leapers or flyers on naggy, end of story.

It seems to me there are many, many reasons why open world pvp isn't common anymore, and its just due to the general evolution of the game to mechanics that minimize open world player to player contact.

I personally don't see a long, vibrant life left in open world pvp.  There aren't resources to deliver radically different mechanics to a forked codebase anymore.

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Old 08-24-2012, 01:09 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Since it would be impossible to remove leaping/flying mounts from the game (from some angles) why not put limits on them? Limit leaping and flying to be within range from the ground so people stand a chance of getting hit. Why not enable some kind of in-air pvp where you are always within ground range and have your flying speed disabled until combat is broken, and have a greater chance of being knocked from your mount and damaged by the fall, or have both opponents airborne with the same risk of falling? The mechanics can't be that different from fighting in water, can they?

Removing those mounts from nagafen would be a much, much simpler 'fix'.  The code needed to do what you suggest is extensive.

If these mounts 'break pvp' then their just shouldn't be leapers or flyers on naggy, end of story.

It seems to me there are many, many reasons why open world pvp isn't common anymore, and its just due to the general evolution of the game to mechanics that minimize open world player to player contact.

I personally don't see a long, vibrant life left in open world pvp.  There aren't resources to deliver radically different mechanics to a forked codebase anymore.

Removing flyers & leapers would render at least 2-3 quest lines irrelevant: feel free to do the quest line, but SURPRISE, no reward, or at least not a reward you can use. Might as well take out those quest lines as well. But taking out flyers renders other quest lines difficult/impossible to do as well, so that option I think is simply not tenable.I suspect you're right about "open world" PvP, though, & it shouldn't surprise anyone at all: in my experience, in every single game I've ever played, instanced PvP largely destroyed open world PvP. The only minor exception to this was Warhammer Online, where lowbies from 4th-11th level duked it out repeatedly in the lowbie "PvP lake," largely because that was the only enjoyable content the game had.This thread should be re-titled, "Stick A Fork In It."

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Old 08-24-2012, 02:28 PM   #33
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I think it's reasonable to assume that taking anything out of naggy that's already been there (bg or leapers/flyers) isn't going to happen. Really the chances are small that any of these suggestions will be implemented. How can players care about an open world pvp server when it's clear that the devs do not?

The allure of the battlegrounds is that the pvp isn't "real" in that it doesn't affect pvp standings in the real world, you have the built-in excuse of a "bad team" if you do poorly, the fights are a sure thing, and you can stack your odds by locking at a specific level and maxing out your gear instead of having to purchase new gear at every tier. You can save face and look l33t to your friends without really risking anything (fame, plat, embarrassment...) and reaping all of the rewards of pvp (experience, tokens, etc.). Then, all geared out and with a good rotation down for pvp you can strike out into the world and gank the new and the undergeared simply to prove your awesomeness. What's not to like about that?

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Old 08-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #34
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First off I would like to say thanks to SOE for trying to improve PVP.

Trying to get balanced and keep people interested in pvp is a never ending battle; people always want to compare it to how it was in the past or how a new game has done it. Here is A couple of things to think about: New games: everyone is leveling characters in the open world, the hard core player get to cap and end game gear fast and hunts and pick off each other and the newer players leveling and questing this creates a pvp atmosphere.

Now in EQ2 everyone has 2 or 3 92’s or a lot more, people log in to farm, raid or grind an alt. every time something new is implemented it creates a bottle neck. (And a lot of fun hopefully) Currently PVP/BG are the bottle neck. Personally im enjoying the new PVP. I log in do the WF then do the BG writs. If I have more time to play I continue to do the BG’s because I want the new gear. And there are very few spots to open world PVP other than WF’s.

Im of the opinion it will be very hard to recreate PVP like it was back in the day.

If they added new quest lines with rewards that were far superior to the gear we have now, that would induce hunting questers again.

Things like taking away exiles removing WF’s, taking away raid PVP will not bring it back to what you are referring to as real pvp. Real pvp always make me laugh let’s say you did all of those things. Then you would have less people during the WF’s and or 2 or three groups of each faction doing the same zerg that you are saying you want to avoid. Some of the best times I have had pvping was the rok tso days after the raid going out pvping with what was left of the raid against other raid guilds.

Removing the BG’s will not make people start hopping from zone to zone running around looking for someone to fight.

 Making travel more difficult again will not create this “real PVP” you speak of. It may add a few more kills if you camp popular zones and wait for groups or raids to zone in. but wait you don’t want raid pvp?

The population does not support old school PVP, where you can track and sneak up on someone and get the jump on them kill them rinse and repeat.

Things I like with the new update:

The removal in PVP/PVE gear separation. Two thumbs up!

Flying and jumping mounts being disabled once you are flagged. Personally I think they should stop once the WF starts. People still use them till the last 10 minutes.

The cost of the new PVP gear is high enough to keep people pvping for a long time. Hopefully once everyone attains t3 they are ready to add more to keep people pvping.

Mercs are pretty much useless during PVP now. personally I think they should cower or disappear once engaged in PVP combat.

The fame system is better, but personally they should go back to TSO fame or remove it all together.

Bringing back Exiles.

More tweeks they could do to improve PVP:

 Targeting is still messed up.

Make it so you don’t get full tokens unless you participate in the WF.

I agree we do need something to make people go out to contested zones other than Warfield’s. but don’t have a good suggestion as to how.

Make mercs disappear once engaged in PVP combat removing all buffs.

During the time of the WF disable flying/jumping mounts not just once you get flagged.

For the lower levels if you take a level 46 to ant you should not get tokens for the kill dirring the WF even though they are within the level limit.

Just my thoughts again im very happy with the recent attention to PVP.

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Old 08-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #35
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I have a couple of suggestions.

To deal with mount issues, implement some kind of proximity based restriction on mounts.  If you get within so many meters of a player within your level range your mount bonuses are removed.

Then, obviously there needs to be more reason to go into the Open World in the first place, and this requires events of some kind to pop up throughout the world.  This could be anything from mob spawns to mini games or something in between.

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Old 08-24-2012, 04:30 PM   #36
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Twyxx wrote:

How was it before the update when bg's were dead?  Was open world action active?  Guessing not. 

I think it's funny when people say bg's are killing questing.  How many people do you really think would be killing ten fairies in Withered Lands if they weren't in bg's?  They wouldn't be.  Just the same way people aren't questing on pve servers.  They'll sit around the guild hall waiting for raid or something interesting enough to warrant leaving the hall.

The problem is that there isn't much to do in the game right now that's actually entertaining.  The only action is in bgs or raids.  Nothing that drives people out into the open world.  If adventuring were exciting or rewarding enough people would be out doing it.

The game is just stale right now.  Hopefully the next expansion brings some fun.

These observations are pretty spot on.  The dev team has addressed the pvp gear issue.  IF (and this is the BIG IF) they move forward supporting the current mechanic of matching quest/open SS and by proxxy SS instance gear/entry EM raid gear with the t1, t2,t3 pvp/bg gear of the corresponding x-pac the there WILL be a resurgence of open world pvp with the next x-pac. 

Quest gear and open world gear are easier/faster to accumulate than the corresponding t1/t2 gear but those seeking to mainly pvp or bg will have open world targets and thus their will be people hunting questers and there will be people hunting those people hunting the questers once again in the open world.

[email protected] wrote:

Removing those mounts from nagafen would be a much, much simpler 'fix'. The code needed to do what you suggest is extensive.

If these mounts 'break pvp' then their just shouldn't be leapers or flyers on naggy, end of story.

It seems to me there are many, many reasons why open world pvp isn't common anymore, and its just due to the general evolution of the game to mechanics that minimize open world player to player contact.

I personally don't see a long, vibrant life left in open world pvp. There aren't resources to deliver radically different mechanics to a forked codebase anymore.

No real large expenditure of resources needs to be allocated IF they follow the current plan:  The open world will once again have a purpose if the open world is designed properly - using current gear reward mechanics very little actually needs to be added in addition.  No new mechanics etc need be done. Everything will be in place it just needs to be aligned properly at level/content introduction not 6 mos to 1.9 years after the fact as happened these last few times. 

Not following through will once again hurt open world pvp.  Should new quests/content/everything be put in at the same time many Nagafanites will choose open world questing/killing over BGs as those rewards will be usefull once again on our server and while we are out attempting to get them we will see pvp - at least thats the hope.  As I am not really playing anymore that much I hope when I log into the new x-pac thats what I see.

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Old 08-24-2012, 04:53 PM   #37
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 When it comes to Naggy there is no longer anyway to save open world pvp. There are too many zones compared to the old days so even if open world where to pick back up the over all population between zones would be too low. The real way to fix open world pvp would be to open a new pvp server locked to the last day of the KOS/EOF expansion. This will never happen due to the fact that SOE is working on EQ next and they do not want to make something that would take away from there new game. So unless they do something like this sometime soon I see naggy being merged with a pve server soon enough. There reason would be something like this " Due to falling server population we are merging the Nagafen server with the Freeport server. Players can still keep there pvp excitement alive in battlegrounds"

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Old 09-02-2012, 12:47 PM   #38
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Brucethegreat wrote:

I agree with these suggestions. BGs have ruined open world PVP to point that there are few if any pvp fights anymore. For those who hunt fot it, it doesn't exist. People don't quest. harvest, or adventure anymore. They spend almost all there time in BGs. A PVP server should not need big gimmics like BGs to get gear and fight opponents, it should be natural like it was before BGs were introduced. I chose a PVP server to get that thrill of combat as I jouney thru the zones not from some special place that does the same thing over and over again. Give our server a chance to stand out separate from PVE servers please. At least consider the first item if we get more things later that would only make it better.

They've tried open-world PvP with EQ1 and EQ2 for many, many years. They have experience in other games with PvP as well. History has proven that open-world PvP doesn't work and everytime you try to make it work it blows up in your face and wastes precious time.

BG's are a success. So it makes sense to use them on PvP servers.

You may wistfully recall past days when there were good moments in open-world PvP, like when two adventurers dueled one another on fair terms,  but for the most part, open-world PvP is filled with griefing and zerging and drives away new players from the server.

Like it or not, but this is the future of PvP, especially in PvE-centered MMORPGs.

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Old 09-11-2012, 07:20 AM   #39
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Havoc Marks have been heirloom for just over a week. Now that you don't need to play a toon to gear it, the spike in low tier open world pvp activity that followed GU64 has all but vanished. /cry

Please consider walking the cat backwards on the heirloom decision to promote open world pvp. 

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Old 09-21-2012, 09:28 AM   #40
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I would like to take a moment to share my PVP experience with you.  This is not a QQ.  This is just the facts.  I began playing this game a few years ago.  (Yes, I think this might be my only post on forums)  I first started a character on Nagafen.  I found the game interesting and fun.  My character made Level 10 that first afternoon.  Then right after I made Level 10, I had a duo kill me.  And camp me.  And kill me.  And camp me.  My memory is foggy about what that period of time is called when you are actually safe from being killed.  Or maybe it was that I kept leaving a "safe cirlce" or something.  It was a few years ago.  Anyway, I was camped and killed over and over again.  I tried to find ways to ditch the duo, but nothing worked.  And no other players in the area would help.  Sadly, I admit, I just gave up and went to a PVE server.

That is my only PVP experience in this game.  The game has been out for many years, so by the time I started playing, there would have been no even ground for me.  My point is that it seems very difficult for someone brand new to the game to actually play the PVP server. 

Again, not QQ'ing.  I actually laugh and joke about the experience with others I know that have played this game in the past.  It was kind of funny in a pathetic way.  Me and my little pick up armor, etc.  dying over and over and over again. 

At least I am still playing the game, if not off and on.

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Old 09-21-2012, 09:46 AM   #41
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purple8 wrote:

Havoc Marks have been heirloom for just over a week. Now that you don't need to play a toon to gear it, the spike in low tier open world pvp activity that followed GU64 has all but vanished. /cry

Please consider walking the cat backwards on the heirloom decision to promote open world pvp. 

Lol @ lack of quality oversight @ SOE regarding content longevity & exploitability...hrmph...

Katanza wrote:

I would like to take a moment to share my PVP experience with you.  This is not a QQ.  This is just the facts.  I began playing this game a few years ago.  (Yes, I think this might be my only post on forums)  I first started a character on Nagafen.  I found the game interesting and fun.  My character made Level 10 that first afternoon.  Then right after I made Level 10, I had a duo kill me.  And camp me.  And kill me.  And camp me.  My memory is foggy about what that period of time is called when you are actually safe from being killed.  Or maybe it was that I kept leaving a "safe cirlce" or something.  It was a few years ago.  Anyway, I was camped and killed over and over again.  I tried to find ways to ditch the duo, but nothing worked.  And no other players in the area would help.  Sadly, I admit, I just gave up and went to a PVE server.

That is my only PVP experience in this game.  The game has been out for many years, so by the time I started playing, there would have been no even ground for me.  My point is that it seems very difficult for someone brand new to the game to actually play the PVP server. 

Again, not QQ'ing.  I actually laugh and joke about the experience with others I know that have played this game in the past.  It was kind of funny in a pathetic way.  Me and my little pick up armor, etc.  dying over and over and over again. 

At least I am still playing the game, if not off and on.

Pretty sure SOE could benefit from a simple tool-tip like, hey bro, call home if you keep dying to PvP (activated at a low level, player could opt to disable this tooltip).

Also, expanding respawn locations can't be too difficult, either (as well as a tooltip noting options with the above qualifiers of repeated dying from PvP at a low LVL).

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Old 09-24-2012, 01:08 PM   #42
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Something has to be done. Based on the last month or so, our consistent group of 92s have done the KP warfields and have witnessed the same story over and over. 10 to 20 Freeports in zone against 50-60 Qs. The sad part is the 50-60 Qs only hit the towers, while the Freeps are trying to engage the Qs. Within seconds after the Qs win the WF, they camp , evac or call with no intention of actually fighting. It is so depressing to think they are either so scared to pvp or they are that desperate to get free tokens from another tier WF. What's puzzing me the most, is what is the purpose of participating in a wf like a scheduled robot if you never actually gear up and pvp? We have seen Qs mentored at 92, 80s on top of the towers, under the towers. Seems like Qs trying everything to not have pvp, but are salivating over pvp tokens lol. It's a total joke.

A side note, our couple small Freep groups end up getting many kills anyway, but we end up losing everytime. There doesn't appear to be one additional Freep group to ever participate to help. As the WF message broadcasts, I consistently read " SS group lfm". Really? Nagafen is a pvp server, how is it not fun to kill the other faction? As all 50 Qs camp in sync, we remain in a group of ten looking to spar some more, with not one Q in sight.

My only suggestions, increase the tokens per pvp kill and increase the amount of tokens for a WF loss, so hitting the towers serves no purpose. And add some control to only award tokens if actually participating rather then sitting in a cave dead or in the ocean. Perhaps re-implement the pvp writs that give Havoc tokens.

Nagafen = PVP

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