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Old 09-18-2011, 12:29 PM   #1
Talathion
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Defiler's are suppost to be the better healing versions of Mystics while they are better DPS (by alot), but currently we are lower healing (not by much, but we don't have anything to do against spike damage).

Part of the Reason we are lacking is because our spells have fake reuse timers added to them which need removed and the base casting time of our spells need improved, we are not able to use all of our spells because they take so long to cast while mystic's combat arts are pretty much instant cast and do instant damage, while ours are dots, clearly they have an advantage.

Maelstrom - This Ability needs to start its reuse as soon as you use the ability, not when the ability ends.  Its Casting Speed needs to be lowered from 3.0 to 1.5 to compete with other classes.

Defile - Our Class Defining Ability: This Ability needs to start its reuse as soon as you use the ability, not when the ability ends.  Its Casting Speed needs to be lowered from 3.0 to 1.5 to compete with other classes.

Imprecate - This is another class defining ability, its like our Anti-Ward but because of its hidious casting time it can barley be used as often as liked, Lower the Casting time from 1.75 to 0.85 and Lower its Debuff Amount by 60%, Allow this Abilitys debuff to Stack up to 5 times on a target and make its Duration Longer (1 Minute).

Soul Cannibalize - This Ability needs to be changed to Disease Damage and the Casting time needs to be lowered from 1.75 to 0.85, Lower the Mana's Heal Amount by 50%.

Nightmares - Our Mythical Buff, This Ability needs its Casting time lowered from 1.75 to 1.5.

Fuliginous Whip - Another great ability, this is our primary dot, but it suffers from the same problem all defiler damage spells suffer from, High Cast and Low Damage... Please Lower the Casting time from 1.75 to 0.85, As a Nerf you can Lower its Duration from 16 to 12.

Defilers AAs:

Rabid Hostility: Rabid Hostility needs to be changed into Spell Multi-Attack instead of Casting Speed, we are capped on Casting Speed and our spells are very low damage.

Curseweaving: It needs changed, period.

Instead of Increasing Casting/Reuse/Recovery it should increase the "Base Casting Speed" of all Defiler's Debuffs, they are VERY slow casting.

The Duration could also be Increased by 50% Instead of 20%.

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Old 09-18-2011, 12:57 PM   #2
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Beware when Tuor rolls your class!

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Old 09-18-2011, 01:33 PM   #3
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All i can say is.... THIS

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Old 09-18-2011, 02:00 PM   #4
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Controlor wrote:

All i can say is.... THIS

There was just a change to aa's and class specific Spells on Test.

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Old 09-18-2011, 05:29 PM   #5
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Controlor wrote:

All i can say is.... THIS

There was just a change to aa's and class specific Spells on Test.

For other classes yes, not for Defilers. Therfore the discussion about defiler changes currently on test is non existance.

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Old 09-19-2011, 09:56 AM   #6
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ObsidianNightmare wrote:

Beware when Tuor rolls your class!

I tend to agree. Hands off of the defiler !

Just make Bane of Warding unresistable. It already is a proc. To have a chance for a chance is a bit to much imho. Getting it in 100% doesnt change or overpower anything. Or change the  AA Enhance: Atrophy to Enhance: Atrophy and Bane of Warding.

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Old 09-19-2011, 12:08 PM   #7
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Bane of Warding needs to be an until canceled proc.

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Old 09-19-2011, 08:43 PM   #8
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Defiler's are suppost to be the better healing versions of Mystics while they are better DPS (by alot), but currently we are lower healing (not by much, but we don't have anything to do against spike damage).

I find this intial comment utterly hilarious... A shaman doesn't have anything to do against spike damage? Really? Wards are precisely FOR spike damage. None of the other healers can deal with spike damage as well as shaman.. because if the damage is more then the target has hitpoints left, only a ward can keep the toon alive. I've got three different healers and  my defiler can, by far, deal with spike damage the best.

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Old 09-19-2011, 08:48 PM   #9
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I really think that at this point it isn't that defilers do too little damage, but that mystic and inquisitor damage is a bit over the top from where it probably should be.  I don't particularly want them to be nerfed, but I don't want defiler class to be OP, either.

Granted my Defiler does not raid, so that is that.  Just heroic stuff, ry'gorr gear, have the mythical, 300aa, etc.  In most situations I think there is a very large gap between defiler/templar and mystic/inquis dps, yes--While I would love to have my Defiler's DPS go up to come close to that of a Mystic, I doubt that will happen.  And it probably wouldn't be good if it did, we'd be overpowered.  Mystic and Inquis DPS is very good for a healer, probably too good.  I don't want our dps to be as good as theres, honestly, as that would be too much.  I am not calling for a nerf but no one will be surprised if mystic and inquis dps gets toned down a bit in relation to other classes, when the next expansion comes around.

I would like our damage spells to cast a little bit faster, but other than that, meh.  If stuff takes forever to die solo, you should check out your cast order and AA.  No need to waste time debuffing, etc.  Rember we have some strong AOEs, too, use that to your advantage.

Really I think the things that defilers really need at this point are:

1.  Make Dogdog go behind the mob automatically, always, or make it not die to AOE auto attack please.  Also, it's hps shuld scale, same with all pets.

2.  Buffs such as our single target HP buff, should scale somehow...perhaps static amount+ an additional 1.5% hp, or something...to pre-emptively fix long term usefullness.

3.  Spiritual circle should scale and be aoe immune, same for all temp pets.

4.  Make debuffs worth something more than what they are now.  You should really know if you are missing those defiler DPS and attack speed debuffs from your raid, imho.  As it is they are worth using but it's not as strong as it should be imho.  Many many disagree here, though. 

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Old 09-20-2011, 03:28 AM   #10
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nm

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Old 09-20-2011, 03:45 PM   #11
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Defiler's are suppost to be the better healing versions of Mystics while they are better DPS (by alot), but currently we are lower healing (not by much, but we don't have anything to do against spike damage).

Defiler's have much more potential healing than a mystic.  The problem is that healing has a ceiling which is directly tied to the difficulty of the content.  The extra healing we provide is simply not needed except on the hardest, most heal-intensive fights.  Make the content harder so that it requires more healing, and mystics will not hold a candle to us.

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Old 09-21-2011, 03:16 AM   #12
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Int Line needs to be made for Spells and be a good alternative from DogDog.

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:32 AM   #13
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bane of Warding needs to be an until canceled proc.

heck no! the fast reuse allows you to keep it up on multiple opponents. Same with the other non-damaging debuffs with a really quick reuse and a long duration. 

As for Curseweaving. Increasing the duration to 50% still doesn't help it because it doesn't affect the better debuffs, and as stated above the reuse is so quick already that it really doesn't matter unless you are trying to maintain a lot of single target debuffs on a lot of targets. So try something else, or better yet stick with the zerker please. Leave the defiler alone.

Reposting from Testing forums: Curseweaving: Have it boost the amount debuffed similar to Spirituality in the heroic tree in addition to what it currently does, or have it add an effect to each cursing debuff that reduces the (amount of healing recieved/target's potency/target's crit bonus/target's crit chance/target's max health) by a small amount that stacks with each cursing spell, or turn it into its own debuff that either reduces the amount of healing recieved or damages the target whenever it is healed, or perhaps a maintained self buff that feeds your group power over time for every cursing debuff currently being maintained, boosts the (potency/crit bonus/ability mod/healing recieved/max health and power/boost debuff amounts/doublecast percentage/etc.) of the group for every cursing debuff currently being maintained, 

As I suggested in another testing post on Defilers. Curseweaving if anything should make your debuffs more detrimental. My favorite was replacing the extended duration with a stacking effect that would lower the target's healing recieved  or potency by 1% for every Defiler debuff on the mob.

Additionally. perhaps Hexation could get have an accuracy and/or strikethrough decrease added to it with costs adjusted to compensate.

A cool change could be to have a debuff that would be able to decrease the target's critical avoidance or for PvP critical mitigation.

To me the difference between a defiler and a mystic should be debuffs versus buffs. Mystics get the better buffs, and Defilers get the better debuffs. It just seems today that a mystic's buff or more benefical to the group/raid then a defiler's debuffs. This is similarily why mystics do more dps, because of the buffs. Most of the defiler's debuffs decrease the target's ability to do damage, thus lowering the opponents incoming damage instead of increaing the group's damage. Heh, so when's the last time you checked the mob's outgoing damage on a parse unless you failed.

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:15 PM   #14
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Grifion wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bane of Warding needs to be an until canceled proc.

heck no! the fast reuse allows you to keep it up on multiple opponents. Same with the other non-damaging debuffs with a really quick reuse and a long duration. 

As for Curseweaving. Increasing the duration to 50% still doesn't help it because it doesn't affect the better debuffs, and as stated above the reuse is so quick already that it really doesn't matter unless you are trying to maintain a lot of single target debuffs on a lot of targets. So try something else, or better yet stick with the zerker please. Leave the defiler alone.

As I suggested in another testing post on defilers. Curseweaving if anything should make your debuffs more detrimental. My favorite was replacing the extended duration with a stacking effect that would lower the target's healing recieved  or potency by 1% for every Defiler deuff on the mob.

To me the difference between a defiler and a mystic should be debuffs versus buffs. Mystics get the better buffs, and Defilers get the better debuffs. It just seems today that a mystic's buff or more benefical to the group/raid then a defiler's debuffs. This is similarily why mystics do more dps, because of the buffs. Most of the defiler's debuffs decrease the target's ability to do damage, thus lowering the opponents incoming damage instead of increaing the group's damage. Heh, so when's the last time you checked the mob's outgoing damage on a parse unless you failed.

Buffs are until canceled, debuffs are not, sometimes if you don't heal the tank dies.

Debuffs should be until canceled as well, and proc off spells. (which are usually cured right after).

Actually Mystics get MORE Healing because they're wards are alot bigger, and they have a 20k regenerating ward, and other goodys that defiler does not have, they also can use combat arts, which are instant cast.

Defilers do less WAY damage, and they're wards are smaller, and they do not have the utility a mystic does.

(This always bothered me anyways, why should mystics get bigger wards when they have better toys for DPS and Almost instant casting damage combat arts?)

Raiders prefere mystics over defilers in all group settings because they do alot more DPS and heal a little better spike damage.

My proposed Changes would give defilers better damage and make the class overall funner to play, our spells are weak and cast slow, they should be weak and cast faster.

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:20 PM   #15
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Tuor please stop. It's very obvious you are very recent to the class or don't have one at all.  Managing Bane of Warding is one of the marks of a great defiler.

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:23 PM   #16
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ObsidianNightmare wrote:

Tuor please stop. It's very obvious you are very recent to the class or don't have one at all.  Managing Bane of Warding is one of the marks of a great defiler.

But when your stuff is instantly cured over and over it becomes a struggle when your also trying to heal the MT whose taking tons of damage, sometimes if you stop to debuff the tank just dies.

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:27 PM   #17
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Pls dont touch defilers.. I love my defiler! Only thing that is needed is the dog needs some alzhiemers pills.

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:43 PM   #18
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khiahh wrote:

Pls dont touch defilers.. I love my defiler! Only thing that is needed is the dog needs some alzhiemers pills.

Errgh.. all I asked for is faster casting spells and debuffs, you want them to still be as slow as casting a heal?

If they remain this slow, the damage needs to be doubled.

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Old 09-26-2011, 12:07 AM   #19
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

khiahh wrote:

Pls dont touch defilers.. I love my defiler! Only thing that is needed is the dog needs some alzhiemers pills.

Errgh.. all I asked for is faster casting spells and debuffs, you want them to still be as slow as casting a heal?

If they remain this slow, the damage needs to be doubled.

If you are using this as a casting order: Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Sacrifical Restoration, Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Wild Acceration in repetition and the tank still dies, then outside of curing or death touches, your healing shouldn't be the problem.

Sometime yes, it can feel like you don't have enough time to get your debuffs in between your heals and wards. And as design spells are slower casting then combat arts, but spells have faster recast times to compensate. 

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Old 09-26-2011, 10:46 AM   #20
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Actually Mystics get MORE Healing because they're wards are alot bigger, and they have a 20k regenerating ward, and other goodys that defiler does not have, they also can use combat arts, which are instant cast.

Defilers do less WAY damage, and they're wards are smaller, and they do not have the utility a mystic does.

(This always bothered me anyways, why should mystics get bigger wards when they have better toys for DPS and Almost instant casting damage combat arts?)

Raiders prefere mystics over defilers in all group settings because they do alot more DPS and heal a little better spike damage.

My proposed Changes would give defilers better damage and make the class overall funner to play, our spells are weak and cast slow, they should be weak and cast faster.

Actually, mystics do not have "alot bigger" wards.  Their mythical is subject to the ability modifier cap, which is the only reason they can have larger primary wards.  At 4000 wisdom, they gain 1200 extra ability mod to their single and group ward.  That is not "a lot" bigger wards.  If you're in a raid setting with a fury, you're more than likely going to be hugging the ability modifier cap as it is and still benefiting from having mythical healing that effectively turns both of our primary wards into mini-Repents.  The extra ability modifier from mythical is nice for them, but it's not going to equate to dramatically larger wards or healing power.

When Oberon was changed, it gave mystics a great tool and leveled the playing field between the classes a bit.  That and Spirit Tap are the big tools that they have to handle some damage when needed.  Defilers still have much, much more potential healing available and can at least top off tanks as they're re-warding through spike damage.  I would add Torpor to that list, but I see it being offset by Deathward.  There's a good reason why defilers are tossed into a MT group on content where the damage to the tank is extremely high.  There's also a good reason why the really good mystics will say it's much harder to play a good mystic than it is a good defilers--defilers truly are easy-mode healing by comparison.  This expansion hasn't needed us up in the main tank position as much due to brawlers taking the spotlight for tanks (and the changes that have made them powerhouses for tanks) along with the content being tailored more towards ultra cures versus heavy damage on the tank.  Templars are in a similar situation for the same reason.   

I'm fine with having some of our damage spells tweaked a bit to be faster casting and even like the idea you proposed of making Curseweaving affect the raw base casting speed of our debuffs (i.e. allows them to go below half of their original base).  Using any sort of argument that mystics have more potential healing (against spike damage or otherwise) isn't going to get changes made, though, since it's simply untrue.

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Old 09-26-2011, 01:13 PM   #21
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Grifion wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

khiahh wrote:

Pls dont touch defilers.. I love my defiler! Only thing that is needed is the dog needs some alzhiemers pills.

Errgh.. all I asked for is faster casting spells and debuffs, you want them to still be as slow as casting a heal?

If they remain this slow, the damage needs to be doubled.

If you are using this as a casting order: Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Sacrifical Restoration, Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Wild Acceration in repetition and the tank still dies, then outside of curing or death touches, your healing shouldn't be the problem.

Sometime yes, it can feel like you don't have enough time to get your debuffs in between your heals and wards. And as design spells are slower casting then combat arts, but spells have faster recast times to compensate. 

I don't use Sacrificial Restoration, its kind of a waste to cast when I can cast Ancient Shroud every 4 Seconds.

I just Use Ancient Shroud, And the group ward, then Ancient Shroud, then Dire balm, then Ancient Shroud, then Group Ward, (because its up again).

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Old 09-26-2011, 01:33 PM   #22
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Grifion wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

khiahh wrote:

Pls dont touch defilers.. I love my defiler! Only thing that is needed is the dog needs some alzhiemers pills.

Errgh.. all I asked for is faster casting spells and debuffs, you want them to still be as slow as casting a heal?

If they remain this slow, the damage needs to be doubled.

If you are using this as a casting order: Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Sacrifical Restoration, Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Wild Acceration in repetition and the tank still dies, then outside of curing or death touches, your healing shouldn't be the problem.

Sometime yes, it can feel like you don't have enough time to get your debuffs in between your heals and wards. And as design spells are slower casting then combat arts, but spells have faster recast times to compensate. 

I don't use Sacrificial Restoration, its kind of a waste to cast when I can cast Ancient Shroud every 4 Seconds.

I just Use Ancient Shroud, And the group ward, then Ancient Shroud, then Dire balm, then Ancient Shroud, then Group Ward, (because its up again).

That may be why you're struggling to keep a tank up against heavy spike damage, then.  In those cases, I fall back on all of our direct heals in between Ancient Shroud/Deathward casts and redo Carrion when everything is stabilized again.

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Old 09-26-2011, 02:04 PM   #23
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His HP is 100% at all times, Ancient Shroud pretty much heals 30% of his HP Dire Balm like 60%, so no, thats not the case.

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Old 09-26-2011, 02:14 PM   #24
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

His HP is 100% at all times, Ancient Shroud pretty much heals 60% of his HP, so no, thats not the case.

Then he's not spiking, is he? SMILEY  Grifion was mainly referring to situations where the tank is spiking hard, not when the tank is stabilized.  If you're in a situation where the wards are dropping quickly and refuse to use Sacrificial Restoration, then that would explain not being able to keep up with the damage.

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Old 09-26-2011, 03:02 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

His HP is 100% at all times, Ancient Shroud pretty much heals 60% of his HP, so no, thats not the case.

Then he's not spiking, is he?  Grifion was mainly referring to situations where the tank is spiking hard, not when the tank is stabilized.  If you're in a situation where the wards are dropping quickly and refuse to use Sacrificial Restoration, then that would explain not being able to keep up with the damage.

Well its usually like this, hes either at 100% health, or he suddenly just dies.

I would really love for defiler's spells to be much faster for the low damage they are, no reason they need to have such high cast speeds.

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Old 09-26-2011, 03:26 PM   #26
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

His HP is 100% at all times, Ancient Shroud pretty much heals 60% of his HP, so no, thats not the case.

Then he's not spiking, is he?  Grifion was mainly referring to situations where the tank is spiking hard, not when the tank is stabilized.  If you're in a situation where the wards are dropping quickly and refuse to use Sacrificial Restoration, then that would explain not being able to keep up with the damage.

Well its usually like this, hes either at 100% health, or he suddenly just dies.

I would really love for defiler's spells to be much faster for the low damage they are, no reason they need to have such high cast speeds.

It depends, really.  I have had cases where the tank is taking so much damage that taking time to cast group ward results in them dying, but bridging with all of my direct heals will keep him afloat until Ancient Shroud recycles a few seconds later.  I run into that often on the hard mode content with undergeared tanks (HM EoW comes to mind right now).

In any case, I agree with you on changing our damage spells--I'd actually prefer for them to simply hit harder or the DOT components to tick faster (whether it be through AA's or changing the base).  I'm on board with those kinds of changes.

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Old 09-27-2011, 02:31 AM   #27
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Grifion wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

khiahh wrote:

Pls dont touch defilers.. I love my defiler! Only thing that is needed is the dog needs some alzhiemers pills.

Errgh.. all I asked for is faster casting spells and debuffs, you want them to still be as slow as casting a heal?

If they remain this slow, the damage needs to be doubled.

If you are using this as a casting order: Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Sacrifical Restoration, Ancient Shroud, Dire Balm, Wild Acceration in repetition and the tank still dies, then outside of curing or death touches, your healing shouldn't be the problem.

Sometime yes, it can feel like you don't have enough time to get your debuffs in between your heals and wards. And as design spells are slower casting then combat arts, but spells have faster recast times to compensate. 

I don't use Sacrificial Restoration, its kind of a waste to cast when I can cast Ancient Shroud every 4 Seconds.

I just Use Ancient Shroud, And the group ward, then Ancient Shroud, then Dire balm, then Ancient Shroud, then Group Ward, (because its up again).

Ancinet Shroud does more hps than Carrion Warding on 1 target. The group ward is more designed for absorbing aoe's then general single target prevention of death via heals and wards. For example, if the tank pulls a large encounter and starts spiking do not cast Carrion Warding. You are increasing the tank's chance of dying. The single target stuff is more capable of keeping 1 toon alive then the group benefical spells. And I didn't include spells like Deathward, Nigtmare, etc in that casting order because that order can be cycled through endlessly.

 Regardless of what your casting order is in general. If the tank dies while you are using that specific casting order that I mentioned above then the heals that you are giving to the tank is not what caused the tank to die is all I am saying. It would then be a failed cure on a nasty dot, or a hit that is so big it must be stoneskinned, aoe avoided, or jousted, or in raiding cooperative strike. 

Secondly If that is your whole casting order then you have plenty of time to throw in damage or debuffs or more heals or wards. The important thing to note is that you have enough spells up that you will never be out of something to cast. Just have to stay on top of what's incoming and outgoing. 

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Old 10-02-2011, 03:24 PM   #28
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Well its usually like this, hes either at 100% health, or he suddenly just dies.

Tell that brawler to use the DEFENSIVE STANCE!

That's why he's dying . . .

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