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Old 06-21-2011, 12:51 PM   #31
Cannibalize
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You guys are funny.

As I've played both classes. (was originally a Defiler for 3 years, betrayed to Mystic (3 months prior to DoV), betrayed back to Defiler (month prior to DoV), then back to Mystic (month in to DoV))  I can safely say that the DPS of a defiler is dependant on, but not limited to:

1. AA

2. Gear

3. Debuffs on the mob

4. Compentence of the Defiler

5. Group Make-up.

This also holds true for every class in the game.

As soloing was slow as a Defiler the dps output was on par with the capable healing output of the class.  To request to be on par with a Mystic's DPS is kind of a outrage per say.  If you want it to be on par, then betray.  I have no troubles what so ever keeping up with the Defilers in my guild (hps wise), while providing better utility, dps, and arguably buffs. 

It's not that the class needs "beefed up" it seems to be more of your understanding that needs adjusted.  I've seen our Defilers parse around 80k dps on a encounter in Kraytoc (Taalak Ring Event) while providing 5k hps.  Do they do this every fight, absolutely not.  Do they parse 5khps+ every fight? you'd better bet they do.

The point is don't cry to the dev's about being the best healer in the game, while being the 2nd worst dps in the game.  Otherwise if the give you dps they need to nerf your heals so you can be on par with Mystics....

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Old 06-22-2011, 09:33 PM   #32
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I dont agree either .. we heal.. thats what we do. We do a great doing it too. Yes mystics have a bit more dps but look at inquis/templar inquis puts out alot more dps than a templar its just the differences of classes. Personally I didnt do the mystic thing then betray, I grouped ..ALOT.. if not always. let someone who dps do the dps.. you just heal them.. you gain lvls fast. Cant find someone to group with, slowly kill mobs. It never truely takes 15 min to kill them. You say your comparing yourself to classes you see take them down faster. What do you think they see w defilers? We stand in the middle of 15 mobs, warded and health not budging while we slowly take em all down and have full mana to boot. IMO its just as fast to pull 15 mobs than one. dot them all, then defile they fall pretty fast (solo). I love my defiler just the way it is.. I dont want my heals to suffer for any kind of dps. And no way is soe going to give us more dps without taking away our heals. We shine just the way we are.

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Old 06-29-2011, 12:21 PM   #33
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My highest parses on the Taltak ring event groups so far is ~137k which at the time put me say 5th, or 6th highest out of the whole raid. 

My understanding for Defiler dps is sheer number of mobs. The more mobs you pull, especially of the same encounter, the more outgoing dps you will see. And with the Defiler's strong warding/healing and power managment they have the stamina they need to really shine. Sure defiler dps is terrible per mob, but watch the exponetial increase as you fight more mobs at once. 

And I agree that Defilers are fine just they way they are. They don't need more dps, they need their strong healing capabilities to survive where the thrive.  

Heck, if Shaman had a reliable 2nd group cure like say druids and inquisitors get I'd say they'd be considered overpowered. With 2 group cures any non-shaman priest would be more of a buff bot then a healer.

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Old 07-09-2011, 12:00 AM   #34
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Our DPS really does need to be looked into.  Anyone who throws out how great our dps is, needs to show a pie of the dps break down.  POTM/POM/VC/ET doing more dps then our spells. our only saving grace is Avenging Ancestors.  It and Master Smite are the only things we have worth casting during Time warp.  And mystics have both those spells.  I asked my raid leader to put me into a mage group so i could see my dps potential and all i can say is i was at the bottom of the dps, I wasn't even beating any troubadors like the other healers.

Ya someone has to be at the bottom, but don't kid yourself to think a mystic and inq can't do the healing a defiler/templar can.  They have the better heal stances, and when the wards are Just as huge, throw in the fury buff and the mystic will throw down bigger wards in off stance then defilers in heal stance.

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Old 07-11-2011, 09:51 AM   #35
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Nedm wrote:

Our DPS really does need to be looked into.  Anyone who throws out how great our dps is, needs to show a pie of the dps break down.  POTM/POM/VC/ET doing more dps then our spells. our only saving grace is Avenging Ancestors.  It and Master Smite are the only things we have worth casting during Time warp.  And mystics have both those spells.  I asked my raid leader to put me into a mage group so i could see my dps potential and all i can say is i was at the bottom of the dps, I wasn't even beating any troubadors like the other healers.

Ya someone has to be at the bottom, but don't kid yourself to think a mystic and inq can't do the healing a defiler/templar can.  They have the better heal stances, and when the wards are Just as huge, throw in the fury buff and the mystic will throw down bigger wards in off stance then defilers in heal stance.

If that was supposed to be a joke, well I fail to see the humour in it.

I suggest you look at classes and understand the diference between scouts ( yes that includes troubs ) and healers.

If other healers can beat troub that means they have better gear / aa / skill. When all these are equal the troub will win most of the time.

The second bold line ... all i can say is duh. The fury buff gives you a lot of ability mod based on their dps so if you get the fury buff then you will throw bigger wards than mystics. It's a logical conclusion which in very advanced mathematics sounds like this :

X + 0 crap < X + bigger crap ( where X is the size of the ward being equal in your example between shamans ).

Whoever gets the fury buff wards for more ... again duh.

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Old 07-11-2011, 01:13 PM   #36
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I don't thing healers should be dpsing, and neither the tank for that matter, but that's a different argument. The advantage since dov is the dps healers can heal better than before and dps better. I've noticed alot of healers with little dps being replaced by DPS healers because they offer both. Thing is I don't want my healer to be DPSing, I'd much rather have major buff/ward/cure/heal increases that keep the low dpsing healers offering alot more than their counter class healers who can offer loads DPS.

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Old 07-11-2011, 02:07 PM   #37
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Well I have a few things to say about this topic, and I think a lot of people are scared if they touch something, defilers will lose their healing advantage they have over other healers, and lose their purpose. To me, such an attitude is one that continues the issue over time, and compounds the problems latter down the road, tho I do agree DPS is not the only way to fix the issue. While our counterparts mystics don't have a second group cure, the lack of one, on either class, assures that shamans are automatically second healers for much of the current raid content. Plainly sad, no healer should have the advantage of being able to possibly solo heal a group when a second couldn't because of something as simple as cures. Now to get into the debate of providing DPS over heals, while I have no issue with one healer providing better DPS than another with better heals. If a healer provides better DPS it should not be because it provides better group buffs than one that heals better, the reality is, the healing heavy counterparts of all healer classes, have inferior group buffs period, almost nothing that a defiler bring in group buffs, has any advantage on group survivability, or DPS, or even utility over a mystic . At the same time, a mystic gets better group DPS and utility buffs. The only true reason to take a defiler over a mystic in a group is, does they little extra healing a defiler does make this possible to do, where it isn't with a mystic. While that may be true in some circumstances still, they are becoming more and more rare, and I recognize this issue and I play a raiding defiler that my guild would never get rid of or tell me to betray. Now for the bright side, while these issues may exist, many of them could become smaller issues with the combat mechanic update here in GU61 that also changes all gear that could allow defilers some options to fix some of our weaknesses.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:30 PM   #38
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actually mystics do more healing....

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Old 07-13-2011, 11:24 AM   #39
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

actually mystics do more healing....

False.  I play both classes and defilers are capable of way more healing.  The only time a mystic will ever outheal an equally geared and skilled defiler is on a heavy AOE fight while Spirit Tap is active.  Mystics also have a slight edge on single target healing of someone in their group with Oberon, but even that advantage is overcome when it comes to potential healing that a defiler can output with all of the tools we have available (mythical buff, deathward, maelstrom, nightmares, shroud of armor, etc.).  The primary reason guilds like mystics is because they provide more DPS, more utility and (unless the content requires extreme healing) the extra healing a defiler is capable of over a mystic is simply not needed.

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Old 07-13-2011, 11:27 AM   #40
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You are doing something really wrong then, Defiler in my raid guild pares up to 95k dps.. while healing MT. This isnt on the ring event either.. this is just on the trash. Named fights he usually does around 35-45k.. guesstimated

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