EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Class Discussion > Priest's Sanctum > Defiler
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-22-2010, 11:45 PM   #1
Bleveitornot

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10
Default

Not sure what on earth is happening but our group can not survive the 3 AOE's for Toxullia.

We are all 20K plus on resists, 90% crit mit plus, the best of easy mode mob armor, 3 healers in MT group, I have every ward, single and group on us, we are max ranged and we are getting owned.

Clearly we are not casting things in the best order so can someone throw me a bone as to what I should be dropping when the 1st Nox aoe's is about to go off, then the arcane and the last piercing?

I believe that the wards should be lasting through all 3 but we are usually toast by the 2nd AE. Is this fight more about positioning then the wards or is it a combo of both? Is it better to be at the hind legs of this guy or keep trying max range? I am just trying to understand what I need to do differently.

Thanks for any assistance we can get.

Bleveitornot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 12:34 PM   #2
Dahmer

Loremaster
Dahmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 64
Default

I don't play a defiler so i can't really suggest what you should be doing~ however i do roll a templar in MT during that fight & communication between the 3 healers is essential! 

That arcane knockback is NASTY which is probley why you guys are not living through all 3.

What we do~ Our warden casts shell right before they hit, the second time they hit i put up Shield of Faith (arcane ward) and holy shield (AE block) on the chain healer.

and then simply rotate from there~ Each AE

Holy shield can be canceled for a better reuse after the AE's hit.

On your end~ and what our chain healer does~ Since you will never be getting knocked back, just sit there and chain cast heals, and keep your debuffs on toxx.

Dahmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 07:07 PM   #3
Aral

General
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 381
Default

Bleveitornot wrote:

Not sure what on earth is happening but our group can not survive the 3 AOE's for Toxullia.

We are all 20K plus on resists, 90% crit mit plus, the best of easy mode mob armor, 3 healers in MT group, I have every ward, single and group on us, we are max ranged and we are getting owned.

Clearly we are not casting things in the best order so can someone throw me a bone as to what I should be dropping when the 1st Nox aoe's is about to go off, then the arcane and the last piercing?

I believe that the wards should be lasting through all 3 but we are usually toast by the 2nd AE. Is this fight more about positioning then the wards or is it a combo of both? Is it better to be at the hind legs of this guy or keep trying max range? I am just trying to understand what I need to do differently.

Thanks for any assistance we can get.

First, wards will not last even through one AE much less all 3.  Each AE on each person on any hardmode tends to be greater than the total of the pooled group ward, even at 100+ crit mit and 20k resists. If you check the healed out of the defiler (are you the defiler or the tank?) when these AE's hit, you'll see 1 person in group taking most of the group ward, and a second person taking a smaller portion, and 2-4 people getting nothing from group ward. Single on tank is obviously used completely, since the frontal/ close version of these AE's are much larger.

Do you have Kindred Restoration AA selected? Since group ward is used up every AE, this helps fill the group after the fact (much as reactives do).

Do you have Spiritual Leadership (edit: fixed name) selected in Shaman AA, for the extra ward when damaged? (30% chance, can trigger on hit or tick, don't need to melee to get it)

I have not been MT defiler in this fight.. have OT'd it and healed as inquis and dps'd as brigand, but  this is what I see our MT group doing:

1. Stay at max heal range (behind dragon, in range of tank in front) for the first noxious hit.  Cure the nox, reapply all wards, get the tank as protected as possible before the next AE.  As long as you stay behind the dragon, you can stay in position for the Arcane AE, it's not the hardest hitting one. 

2. Arcane hits. Use the arcane knockback to steer/ fall outside max heal range (closer to root).  Cure, reapply wards, because the third AE (Noxious /piercing combination) is what you cannot survive at max heal range.

3. 3rd AE (noxious / piercing) hits. Cure the third nox at 30m or so, then move back into max heal range of MT.

As with all curing fights, make sure the healer who is not curing the AE is getting group back to green and reapplying all wards/ reactives / HoTs in between the AE's.

When I'm grabbing aggro on this on my tank to eat the swallows, I expect my healers will be OOR for part of the time, so I try to space out immunities / saves during the noxious / piercing AE especially.  I've never been the full on MT for this so I can't say what they do, but you just have to prepare to not have heals for a little bit I believe, when AOE blocks are down for the healers.

One last thing: the facing of the dragon matters. The frontal versions of the AE's are unsurvivable by non tanks, so as you move the dragon they need to make sure they are staying both at proper range AND keeping in the 4 o clock to 8 o clock arc of the dragon's AEs.

____________

Here is a breakdown of the incoming AE's on our MT defiler last time we were here. I was the lowly alt tank taking swallows so I was out of range for some of the AEs, but you get the idea of where the damage on the healers comes from:

TYPE                 DAMAGE   EXT DPS  AVERAGE    MIN HIT  MAX HIT  RESIST     HITS    CRIT %  SWINGS  TO HIT %  All                  149,742  268.84   4,404.18   0        22,844   All        34      56%     34      100.00    Piercing Pestilence  69,173   124.19   8,646.63   0        19,775   piercing   8       75%     8       100.00    Fetid Torrent        29,173   52.38    4,862.17   0        15,813   poison     6       83%     6       100.00    Ancient Winds        12,268   22.03    2,044.67   0        12,268   non-melee  6       0%      6       100.00   

These are the 3 AE's. Fetid Torrent is #1, noxious. Ancient Winds is arcane, knockback. Piercing Pestilence is the double hit with a poison / piercing damage combo. Piercing pestilence is the one most healers cannot survive if within healing range without an AOE block. 

Aral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 07:20 PM   #4
EQPrime

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 702
Default

Mystic makes a good choice in the MT group on Tox tbh.  For surviving the incoming damage, the shaman needs to block the first and third AoE.  The templar should be able to help with pretty much every arcane AoE with Shield of Faith and he or she should be giving the shaman AoE immunity when it's available.  If you run a druid in the group with you make sure to use RoA at the appropriate time in conjunction with his/her aoe blocker.

Make sure you have the right AA spec, especially Spiritual Leadership.

__________________
Uguv - Templar/Armorer/Transmuter
Pequeno - Dirge/Alchemist/Tinkerer
Reeep - Brigand
Arbre - Warden/Sage
Flippyfloppies - OP SK
Amplify - Troubadour

Slege
Mistmoore
EQPrime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 11:46 PM   #5
Bleveitornot

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10
Default

I am the MT on this fight and my healer captain is the Defiler.

We have been trying to figure out why we can pull him great for over 3 minutes, then completely wipe to the AE's.

The problem we found for us going right behind the mob is that the knock back and stun slow regrouping and therefore issues reapplying wards and heals. So we have set our self up against the root by the door to stop the knoch back but clearly we need it to move out of range of the last AE.

We have decided to put a Troub in the group to get more range for heals and the J cap will help the warden block every 2nd AE and then if we can do the above strats for the blocker on the chain healer and maybe one more blocker from the troub, it should be enough time for the other 3 groups to take down Vuulan.

I will add after I talk more.

Bleveitornot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 07:06 AM   #6
Boli32

Loremaster
Boli32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,425
Default

Bleveitornot wrote:

I am the MT on this fight and my healer captain is the Defiler.

We have been trying to figure out why we can pull him great for over 3 minutes, then completely wipe to the AE's.

The problem we found for us going right behind the mob is that the knock back and stun slow regrouping and therefore issues reapplying wards and heals. So we have set our self up against the root by the door to stop the knoch back but clearly we need it to move out of range of the last AE.

We have decided to put a Troub in the group to get more range for heals and the J cap will help the warden block every 2nd AE and then if we can do the above strats for the blocker on the chain healer and maybe one more blocker from the troub, it should be enough time for the other 3 groups to take down Vuulan.

I will add after I talk more.

You *need* a dirge, stoneskins + quick rezzes = win

As for the above advice.. it is all about timing your AoE immunities and "tank specials".

Boli32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 05:33 PM   #7
Sedenten

Loremaster
Sedenten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 680
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Mystic makes a good choice in the MT group on Tox tbh.  For surviving the incoming damage, the shaman needs to block the first and third AoE.  The templar should be able to help with pretty much every arcane AoE with Shield of Faith and he or she should be giving the shaman AoE immunity when it's available.  If you run a druid in the group with you make sure to use RoA at the appropriate time in conjunction with his/her aoe blocker.

Make sure you have the right AA spec, especially Spiritual Leadership.

Unless something changed that I didn't know about, the only class specific AOE blocker mystics have is from the STR/dog line.  Defilers get that line as well and it's completely random on when the AOE blocker actually triggers (i.e. the mystic has no control over when the AOE avoidance is going to be up).  Other than their extra temporary group ward, mystics are no more capable of keeping their group up in the MT group for Toxx than a defiler is.

That being said, both the noxious and arcane AOE's are directional based for damage.  The arcane isn't that bad as long as you stay directly behind the dragon, but the noxious has a bit of a punch if you're in healing range and directly behind.  What I've found helps is to watch the animations--when Toxx takes to the air briefly and beats her wings, the noxious AOE is about to hit (usually half a second after she lands and starts a breathing animation).  Right as she is landing, I back out a tad (just outside of max heal range) and allow the noxious to hit.  Generally it does not hit hard at all at that range.  I try and pile on the single target wards and get off a group ward just before the dragon starts doing that animation if I can.   The arcane/knockback can be similarly watched for.  Toxxulia has a little slow spin animation she does before the arcane/knockback hits.  Usually I can get to the wall and find a spot to minimize the knockback effect when I see the animation. 

Also, if you have either the shield of Shard of Hate (Brace of Corporeal Darklight) or Munzok (Baneward, Barrier of Shadow) the stoneskin proc can be immensely helpful in reducing the amount of damage your group ward takes from each AOE.  If you watch for the proc in your buff window, you can basically ignore your positioning if it's up before the AOE's.  If you have the cloak from Spirit's Resonance that procs the little AOE pets (and/or the one from Shard of Hate), wading into melee can wind up blocking a few AOE's here and there. 

As others have said, Spiritual Leadership is a huge help for keeping the group up and I've found the dog does block quite a few AOE's here and there and has no issues surviving on the fight.  If you have ward procs (i.e. Runic Deflection, Ancient Invigoration, Hateshield, etc.), spamming your group heals can net you more procs to help absorb some of the AOE damage.  If you have a warden in your MT group (and it sounds like you do), hitting tortoise shell every time it's available for an AOE can help give you more breathing room.

The fight does become tons easier once you kill it a few times!  Just keep with it

Sedenten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 06:14 PM   #8
Bleveitornot

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10
Default

Ok,

So it looks like a respec will be done. Change the strat on the healers, reapply wards after every AOE, make sure we use the tanks special tricks, bring Dirge back into group and figure out the  timing for AOE's and accept that we will die several times on this encounter.

Also

""

One last thing: the facing of the dragon matters. The frontal versions of the AE's are unsurvivable by non tanks, so as you move the dragon they need to make sure they are staying both at proper range AND keeping in the 4 o clock to 8 o clock arc of the dragon's AEs.

""

We will try all these new changes and thank you all for the guidence.

Bleveitornot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 11:59 AM   #9
EQPrime

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 702
Default

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Mystic makes a good choice in the MT group on Tox tbh.  For surviving the incoming damage, the shaman needs to block the first and third AoE.  The templar should be able to help with pretty much every arcane AoE with Shield of Faith and he or she should be giving the shaman AoE immunity when it's available.  If you run a druid in the group with you make sure to use RoA at the appropriate time in conjunction with his/her aoe blocker.

Make sure you have the right AA spec, especially Spiritual Leadership.

Unless something changed that I didn't know about, the only class specific AOE blocker mystics have is from the STR/dog line.  Defilers get that line as well and it's completely random on when the AOE blocker actually triggers (i.e. the mystic has no control over when the AOE avoidance is going to be up).  Other than their extra temporary group ward, mystics are no more capable of keeping their group up in the MT group for Toxx than a defiler is.

The mystic's temporary nox ward, like the templar's arcane ward, is a huge help on tox.  We normally roll with a defiler in the MT group but use a mystic on Tox.

As for the OP's troub idea, the first time we killed Tox our group setup was Berserker, Paladin, Troubador, Templar, Mystic, Warden.  The troub distance enhancer helped give us a bit of wiggle room when it came to ranging the AoEs.  After a few kills we were able to replace the troub with a dirge, and after a few more we replaced the warden with a coercer, but on the initial kill it worked fairly well.  If you are planning on going without a dirge in the MT group then I'd make sure the troub brings rez signets so he or she is able to rez in a pinch.

__________________
Uguv - Templar/Armorer/Transmuter
Pequeno - Dirge/Alchemist/Tinkerer
Reeep - Brigand
Arbre - Warden/Sage
Flippyfloppies - OP SK
Amplify - Troubadour

Slege
Mistmoore
EQPrime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 03:40 PM   #10
Aral

General
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 381
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Unless something changed that I didn't know about, the only class specific AOE blocker mystics have is from the STR/dog line.  

I think the poster you are referencing was talking about 2 things:

1. Holy shield from templar being used on the shaman, allowing the single target (shaman) to remain AOE immune for a duration

2. The druid receiving Ritual of Alacrity before they use Tortoise Shell, the 10m-radius group AOE block that lasts I believe 30 seconds (a full round of AEs on tox pretty much)

The main reason they probably use a Mystic is because the noxious-only ward, like shield of faith templar arcane ward, are superior to standard shaman group wards. Unlike the standard group wards (Umbral warding, Carrion warding) the noxious and arcane wards apply a SEPARATE (not pooled) large ward to each group member. So instead of a 16k ward being split up among 2-4 people, you get a large (8-11k?) ward on each person for that specific resist type.  I don't know if the reuse is fast enough to use on both 1st and 3rd AE's though.

Aral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2010, 10:35 AM   #11
Sedenten

Loremaster
Sedenten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 680
Default

Aralys wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Unless something changed that I didn't know about, the only class specific AOE blocker mystics have is from the STR/dog line.  

I think the poster you are referencing was talking about 2 things:

1. Holy shield from templar being used on the shaman, allowing the single target (shaman) to remain AOE immune for a duration

2. The druid receiving Ritual of Alacrity before they use Tortoise Shell, the 10m-radius group AOE block that lasts I believe 30 seconds (a full round of AEs on tox pretty much)

The main reason they probably use a Mystic is because the noxious-only ward, like shield of faith templar arcane ward, are superior to standard shaman group wards. Unlike the standard group wards (Umbral warding, Carrion warding) the noxious and arcane wards apply a SEPARATE (not pooled) large ward to each group member. So instead of a 16k ward being split up among 2-4 people, you get a large (8-11k?) ward on each person for that specific resist type.  I don't know if the reuse is fast enough to use on both 1st and 3rd AE's though.

After reading Uguv's post about 5 more times I can see how that can be one way to interpret it.  The wording confused me, though, so apologies to Uguv if that's what they were trying to say.  

I want to also point out that I believe the noxious/arcane ward that mystics get slowly regenerates (so I thought, anyway) and is on around a minute base reuse timer.  I have no doubts it would be powerful on this fight, but I think a defiler has just as many tools to make them work just as well--keep in mind Shroud of Armor passively absorbs a lot of non-melee AOE damage and it's constantly refreshing it's absorption (the max it has absorbed for me that I can remember was just over 1800).  I don't think the answer is to swap the original poster out for the raid's mystic, unless that mystic is that much better geared.  Most of the tools that a mystic has over a defiler can be used outside of group (the temporary arcane/noxious ward and perhaps Oberon being the only ones I can think of offhand that cannot be used on outside of group members) and they simply bring more to a non-tank group than a defiler does.

The AOE's are still heavily position based, so if your group members are in the wrong spot at the wrong time no amount of warding will likely save them from death.  Simply watching the animations that Toxxulia uses and backing out just outside of heal range before the AOE fires can dramatically reduce the damage that the healers are taking.  If a melee in the group is getting toasted every single AOE, then they probably aren't attempting to joust out at all and are eating a majority of any group wards (along with dying and healing Toxxulia).  Piling any debuffs on the dragon and maintaining them, as well as timing Malicious Spirits before the noxious AOE's can have an impact as well. 

Personally I wade into the fight and autoattack while healing (to proc the pets from my cloak, which in turn tends to block quite a few of the AOE's), but I'm also checking my buff bar for my stoneskin proc from my shield and either backing out some when the noxious animation starts or staying in and allowing the stoneskin to take the AOE.  I'm also spec'ed for the STR line and the dog blocks a few of the AOE's as well (and hasn't died on the fight for me in a long time).  Jumping in to melee and jousting out from melee range is not likely to work well for someone that is just starting to get the fight down, but that plan works for me so perhaps it's worth trying if it helps at all and they have the appropriate gear (i.e. AOE pet proc and/or stoneskin proc shield).

Sedenten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2010, 11:32 AM   #12
EQPrime

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 702
Default

Sorry, yes by block the AoEs I meant ward and not aoe avoid.  We use the mystic solely for the nox ward, plus when we were first working on the fight we occasionally had to survive Tox for up to 10 minutes with no enchanter so Spirit Tap was a bit handy too.

I've done the fight with our defiler too and he can generally do fine but when we were first working on the fight the mystic was able to more reliably ward the aoe damage.

__________________
Uguv - Templar/Armorer/Transmuter
Pequeno - Dirge/Alchemist/Tinkerer
Reeep - Brigand
Arbre - Warden/Sage
Flippyfloppies - OP SK
Amplify - Troubadour

Slege
Mistmoore
EQPrime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2010, 07:01 PM   #13
Arcanemundi
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Electus Vir
Rank: Order of Electus Vir ~ Senior Raider

Loremaster
Arcanemundi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 92
Default

I position myself right on Tox's hind legs, and keep myself warded with at least one or two wards.  We don't stack on the root, and instead move with Tox.  Before the Arcane knock back hits, I attempt to run to the wall of the chamber so I bounce off the ceiling quicker and get back in the fight.  The dog AoE blocker makes a noticeable difference, so staying in range of the blocker at all times helps keep the wards you cast on yourself healthy.  Using tools like Defiler Monitor, timers, and making a trigger in ACT to tell you when the dog's AoE blocker procs, helps prioritize your casting choices.

I believe this is as much of a "Tank" fight, as it is a "Heal" fight.  Timing the swap of the tanks on the eat with hate position abilities, and moving Tox correctly when the bubble starts, can be a challenge when learning the fight.  Quickly curing the curse that grenades groups is important also.  Timing the summon can be tricky too if the mages get knocked up.  I've seen the MT group healed by both a Defiler, and a Mystic, on separate nights, and both healers did fine.  It is not critical to have one class over the other for Tox.  However, our first flawless on Tox was with a Mystic in the MT group.  If a Mystic casts their wards in the right order, the nox ward can do around 20% of a Mystic's healing on that fight, and Oberon is key if you are moving a lot.  

If all my wards go down, and recast timers are not up on them, I throw my death prevent on the tank, throw a heal, or a group heal, and by then get a single target ward on him.  After that I can refresh the ward on me, and others.  Spam healing every second is important.  Debuffs are critical as well.  -and GOD I hate that non-curable nox *slow casting* debuff!  Once Vuulan dies, it gets easier since the other healers in raid should be able to help out the MT group with wards, debuffs, and general heals.

90% crit mit seems a bit low though.  Don't forget to use crafted resistance jewelery to get crit mit higher.

Arcanemundi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 06:22 PM   #14
Tehom

Loremaster
Tehom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,171
Default

Yeah, her crit bonus is something like between 115-125 or so. I'd probably encourage people to use mastercrafted crit mit jewelry if they're below 100. Beyond that, people often make the mistake of being in the frontal arc of dragons since their model is so large. Remember to stand near her rear legs or further back.

Tehom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:53 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.