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Old 08-17-2012, 06:17 AM   #31
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Take a look at what your dog cures for.

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Old 08-17-2012, 01:37 PM   #32
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I'm not sure how you got "cures are worthless" out of my post. I was saying cures are fine where they are. You didn't even...get my point at all. I haven't checked how helpful immunities is but there's an option there if you can't heal through the dets. You do have a single target cure aswell.

Shamans are by far are doing better than most others after this nonesense. Their heals aren't inferior. Cures have been this way for a while now. I'm not sure you even know what this thread is about.

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Old 08-17-2012, 04:10 PM   #33
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[email protected] wrote:

Exagon wrote:

daswai wrote:

 If you think Templars are fine, then your templar must have max AA and level 92. ( mine is not )

why would i even try and make a comment on something if my toon wasnt

Thought you played only a warden and an inquis not a temp.

i've played every healer excluding a fury since update.. currently only playing templar & mystic, however

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Old 08-17-2012, 08:15 PM   #34
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ratbast wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Wards aren't OP. they're crap like everyone else's hots/reactives have become. Certain temps and passive abilities are what shamans had going for them, and still do because none of them crit in the first place. So basically SOE did nothing to curb OP abilities, just made the rest of our heals cruddy.

and cures are alredy nerfed enough in BGs. They're set on a longer recast for everyone. Dets stack up on you even if you have the spare cure.

how many levels does inq myth group cure fix?

we are not talking about an additive ability, these other classes have 2 (or more) times as fast curing power. thats what having 2 group cures means. if you dont think the extra group cure means anything, what about the 1st one? if 2 isnt a huge amazing advantage over 1, then how is 1 any better than 0? for a multiplicative advantage to be meaningless, the initial ability needs to be roughly of zero value, meaning cures dont help to begin with.

all you are saying is that cures dont matter. well the fact is that nonshamans cure the det loading TWICE AS FAST. so if they cant get them off either, atleast the dets are not stacking as fast!!! if det stacking is a bad thing, why wouldnt 2 group cures be awesome? if nonshamans cant keep them off, how do you think things work out for shamans? yeah they prolly dont mind having MORE dets on their group, as a fact of life, than the other healers. therefore shaman heals should be equal to the other healers.

you point about recast doesnt change anything unless both group cures share same timer in pvp. otherwise your point is meaningless as its equilized and all share the penalty, while retaining their original curing pecking order.

if you think 2 group cures isnt lightyears ahead of 1, in detriment hell group pvp, just propose all healers can only use 1 group cure in pvp. watch the reaction. your perspective on the value of curing is absurd. dets are unbelievably overpowering in pvp. if they werent, why would anyone bother curing them to begin with? in that kind of scenario, it makes sense for all healers to be equal in health healing. but the reality is that dets have teeth, and healers who are better at curing have a major advantage when health healing is nerfed. it just makes cures all the more important.

i dont mind having disparity in how well different priests cure, but the poor curers dam well better be better health healers. reducing EVERYONES ability to heal health just reduces the relevence of health healing overall, unfairly penalizing those who specialize in it while sacrificing better curing ability. just imagine it the other way around and everyones cures were put on a 10 minute recast timer. turning ppls primary niche/strength into crap wont solve balance issues.

for a marginal shaman to break into pvp would be a sad story. his gear is subpar and he needs to crit to survive 0.25 seconds, is getting stacked with dets. that is a losing proposition every time. gee im glad tokens are notrade.

i love going into a gears match with a crappy tank while the other group knows how to use dets. it means they will target me with impunity and bust my balls the whole match long, putting cc on me, target locking me, while my tank spams his damage cas. /smh yeah curing wouldnt help with that... (and no im not advocating more cures for shaman, just dont nerf their strength, health healing)

shamans are vulnerable to det attack. they dont also need to be vulnerable to health dropping to zero from unimpressive vanilla damage cas.

People need to remember that healers ability at curing was nerfed some time ago...as it stands the number of dets removed in one swipe via group or single target was reduced.   First this was never really explained why it was needed.  Second, this hampers the ability of single group cure healers far more that those with mulitple group cures, add in the problems that dets are hitting for more and thanks to heals being nerfed and you have a dangerous mix.

BTW some of the people complaining about the problems of heals/cures now are some of the same who tried to derail my attempts at bringing the cure nerf to the head of the problems with pvp when the update was still on test.

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Old 08-17-2012, 09:39 PM   #35
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I'm not sure how you got "cures are worthless" out of my post. I was saying cures are fine where they are. You didn't even...get my point at all. I haven't checked how helpful immunities is but there's an option there if you can't heal through the dets. You do have a single target cure aswell.

Shamans are by far are doing better than most others after this nonesense. Their heals aren't inferior. Cures have been this way for a while now. I'm not sure you even know what this thread is about.

you trivialized the difference between priests with 1 group cure and priests with 2 or more group cures.

i think "cures are worthless" is a fair summation. if 2 is not better than 1, by a lot, then cures cant be that important.

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Old 08-19-2012, 09:28 PM   #36
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Both Shaman and Templar have ways to cure their group through passive means and shaman currently do half their healing with a passive AA buff so .. cmon now.  get real

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Old 08-20-2012, 01:24 AM   #37
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Crismorn wrote:

Both Shaman and Templar have ways to cure their group through passive means and shaman currently do half their healing with a passive AA buff so .. cmon now.  get real

If by passive means you mean manacure or involuntary gift you need to be aware that manacure if complete garbage with a proc rate of under 1% if that...as for involuntary cure it will only cure trauma dots ae and give a moderate heal.

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Old 08-20-2012, 02:46 AM   #38
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[email protected] wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

Both Shaman and Templar have ways to cure their group through passive means and shaman currently do half their healing with a passive AA buff so .. cmon now.  get real

If by passive means you mean manacure or involuntary gift you need to be aware that manacure if complete garbage with a proc rate of under 1% if that...as for involuntary cure it will only cure trauma dots ae and give a moderate heal.

Pretty much this.

Involo gift is just worthless. On average i will walk away with maybe 5 cure procs if i'm lucky. Manacure will pase higher for me although it's NOTHING in comparison to Dog Dog cure, and of course i need a mage/bard/fury to put it on.

Cure procs from current gear are also worthless. Pancea/Soothing Signal they will proc but won't actually work if i'm engaged in combat. Which being that it procs cures, It's just worthless.

There are older items that you can pick up circa TSO/SF~ A wrist, and a charm that procs cures~ both parse decent but you take a huge hit in stats.

There is also baubble cures you can get~ A charm from the Sig line with a long recast~ You get an upgraded version of it from killing the last name in PoW, but i assume they share the same recast. There is also a ranged baubble cure from SF you can pick also, which has a pretty long recast as well.

With those things~ it simply isn't enough to keep up cures. Being a Templar in pvp it's impossiable for me to keep up with 6 stacked Elementals or Nox's that just completey destory not only myself but my grp.

Reactives do not trigger off dot ticks. I have actually ticked to death with Divine guidance..that's always fun.

It's pretty easy determining the outcome of every match. If i see ahead of time~  A stacked grp of mages + shammy, it's going to be a loss on my end.

Something needs to be adjusted with this healer nerf. It's by far isn't balanced between all 6 of us.

I can't be the only reading death reports with stuff hitting me for 10k-20k when my reactives are triggering for 3k.

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Old 08-20-2012, 07:36 AM   #39
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Lets face it guys healers used 2 be OP before this update.How many times did U C wardens tanking far beter then any fighter?.Now it`s become far more balnced.keeping your group is not any more mendatory it`s a skill like for a dps 2 kill some1.At the end of BG U`ll C what healers cast 2 heals,group heal and group preheal(ward,reacative or hot) and what healer actually do something more and more important which one was beter protected by his figher.

If some1 think that he can do PvP with raid armor and live long and happy ...hehe...welcome into reality SMILEY

/ps before this update I bearly ever plays my templar in PvP..even do I`m from Nagafen...there was no point inqs owns me by a mile in basicly everything..warden ?..lol no competitions here.Now I can own a warden or inqs when it comes 2 heal parse (nice but nothing) but what it most important I can keep my group mambers alive longer(but not indefinitly) and it`s hard specelly I need 2 heal guys with raid armor,whou thinks that when they got 60k of hp they`are imortal SMILEY.If U C some1 with that way of hp,specelly if he`s fighter..ouch...kick him asap ;P.Thougness FTW..speceally for your healer

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Old 08-20-2012, 12:07 PM   #40
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Dahmer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

Both Shaman and Templar have ways to cure their group through passive means and shaman currently do half their healing with a passive AA buff so .. cmon now.  get real

If by passive means you mean manacure or involuntary gift you need to be aware that manacure if complete garbage with a proc rate of under 1% if that...as for involuntary cure it will only cure trauma dots ae and give a moderate heal.

Pretty much this.

Involo gift is just worthless. On average i will walk away with maybe 5 cure procs if i'm lucky. Manacure will pase higher for me although it's NOTHING in comparison to Dog Dog cure, and of course i need a mage/bard/fury to put it on.

Cure procs from current gear are also worthless. Pancea/Soothing Signal they will proc but won't actually work if i'm engaged in combat. Which being that it procs cures, It's just worthless.

There are older items that you can pick up circa TSO/SF~ A wrist, and a charm that procs cures~ both parse decent but you take a huge hit in stats.

There is also baubble cures you can get~ A charm from the Sig line with a long recast~ You get an upgraded version of it from killing the last name in PoW, but i assume they share the same recast. There is also a ranged baubble cure from SF you can pick also, which has a pretty long recast as well.

With those things~ it simply isn't enough to keep up cures. Being a Templar in pvp it's impossiable for me to keep up with 6 stacked Elementals or Nox's that just completey destory not only myself but my grp.

Reactives do not trigger off dot ticks. I have actually ticked to death with Divine guidance..that's always fun.

It's pretty easy determining the outcome of every match. If i see ahead of time~  A stacked grp of mages + shammy, it's going to be a loss on my end.

Something needs to be adjusted with this healer nerf. It's by far isn't balanced between all 6 of us.

I can't be the only reading death reports with stuff hitting me for 10k-20k when my reactives are triggering for 3k.

This is directly related to the obsolete and broken mechanics regarding reactives for pvp and pve...and is highly unlikely it will ever be addressed as the dev team "knows" best even though most of us in the community have played this game longer than they have been employed and understand the mechanics better than them go figure.

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Old 08-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #41
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Astornoth wrote:

Lets face it guys healers used 2 be OP before this update.How many times did U C wardens tanking far beter then any fighter?.Now it`s become far more balnced.keeping your group is not any more mendatory it`s a skill like for a dps 2 kill some1.At the end of BG U`ll C what healers cast 2 heals,group heal and group preheal(ward,reacative or hot) and what healer actually do something more and more important which one was beter protected by his figher.

If some1 think that he can do PvP with raid armor and live long and happy ...hehe...welcome into reality

/ps before this update I bearly ever plays my templar in PvP..even do I`m from Nagafen...there was no point inqs owns me by a mile in basicly everything..warden ?..lol no competitions here.Now I can own a warden or inqs when it comes 2 heal parse (nice but nothing) but what it most important I can keep my group mambers alive longer(but not indefinitly) and it`s hard specelly I need 2 heal guys with raid armor,whou thinks that when they got 60k of hp they`are imortal .If U C some1 with that way of hp,specelly if he`s fighter..ouch...kick him asap ;P.Thougness FTW..speceally for your healer

This is funny, so all of a sudden you got good at this game overnight and all the healers forgot how to play.  Brilliant, your observational skills are astounding

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Old 08-20-2012, 11:33 PM   #42
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This is profoundly ridiculous.

Two options:

1.  Severely reduce dmg dealt across the board and pay special attention to the classes there are countless threads on in these forums and on test.

--or--

2.  Continue to nerf all priest classes so NO ONE will even consider playing one.  That way all fights last 5seconds with no alternative for an additional second or two if a healer or two is chain healing.

As it stands it looks like SoE is going in the direction of option two.  Come on guys, finish it.  Tired of everything being decided by the fate of if a healer is there or not.  They rage, I rage, we all rage.  Balance the classes or kill them off already.

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Old 08-20-2012, 11:51 PM   #43
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Astornoth wrote:

Lets face it guys healers used 2 be OP before this update.How many times did U C wardens tanking far beter then any fighter?.Now it`s become far more balnced.keeping your group is not any more mendatory it`s a skill like for a dps 2 kill some1.At the end of BG U`ll C what healers cast 2 heals,group heal and group preheal(ward,reacative or hot) and what healer actually do something more and more important which one was beter protected by his figher.

If some1 think that he can do PvP with raid armor and live long and happy ...hehe...welcome into reality

/ps before this update I bearly ever plays my templar in PvP..even do I`m from Nagafen...there was no point inqs owns me by a mile in basicly everything..warden ?..lol no competitions here.Now I can own a warden or inqs when it comes 2 heal parse (nice but nothing) but what it most important I can keep my group mambers alive longer(but not indefinitly) and it`s hard specelly I need 2 heal guys with raid armor,whou thinks that when they got 60k of hp they`are imortal .If U C some1 with that way of hp,specelly if he`s fighter..ouch...kick him asap ;P.Thougness FTW..speceally for your healer

Healers were OP for a bit, but normally only a few of them were OP, namely wardens and Inqs. Templars were also very good but not on the same level as the other 2. Also, toughness and lethality have crappy returns currently that isn't barely worth using them.

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Old 08-21-2012, 03:06 AM   #44
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Please make my fury worthfull again, being three shotted by assassin's because my HoT's heal for 1k because they don't crit is truely just garbage.

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Old 08-21-2012, 05:17 AM   #45
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Nerfed shamans spiritual leadership today with no compensation to casted wards, I'm better it will break shamans, we will see though. Their casted wards are already bad
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:44 AM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:

Please make my fury worthfull again, being three shotted by assassin's because my HoT's heal for 1k because they don't crit is truely just garbage.

The only furies I'm three shotting are the ones in poor gear or the ones that are otherwise incompetent.  Further, the notion that just keeping a HoT running should keep you alive is preposterous when those that are killing you have to do more than just watch a cool down to get their job done.

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Old 08-21-2012, 07:17 AM   #47
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The problem with the healers is that it is very easy to create a huge advantage for a group with multiple healers.  They really need to make it so healers don't stack so well, because it already is at a point where a couple of healers make it extremely difficult to kill anyone in their group.  We don't need to go back to the time when we would futilely beat on one another in a huge scrum with no deaths.  That was about as entertaining as watching paint dry.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:39 PM   #48
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gourdon wrote:

The problem with the healers is that it is very easy to create a huge advantage for a group with multiple healers.  They really need to make it so healers don't stack so well, because it already is at a point where a couple of healers make it extremely difficult to kill anyone in their group.  We don't need to go back to the time when we would futilely beat on one another in a huge scrum with no deaths.  That was about as entertaining as watching paint dry.

To do that, they would either mutilate all damage, or overpower every healer. so I don't see that happening.

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Old 08-22-2012, 01:04 AM   #49
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gourdon wrote:

The problem with the healers is that it is very easy to create a huge advantage for a group with multiple healers.  They really need to make it so healers don't stack so well, because it already is at a point where a couple of healers make it extremely difficult to kill anyone in their group.  We don't need to go back to the time when we would futilely beat on one another in a huge scrum with no deaths.  That was about as entertaining as watching paint dry.

Hmm so basicly you dont want healers to heal, cure, and rez...after these nerfs (I mean "adjustments") to healers we are already halfway there.  How bout we nerf all dps classes to hitting to negligable amounts not able to kill anyone solo say 1 -3 k range no longer critting.  I'll just leave that out there.

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Old 08-22-2012, 05:22 AM   #50
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It's fairly simple..  A healer should be able to heal through 2-3 DPS classes hitting it, as long as they don't use ANY CC or ANY interrupts.  

Soon as they CC, the game changes.   If a healer can't heal the amount that 3 or 4 dps classes put out then they are usless at keeping a group alive.  And I'm talking about AOE dmg not single target here.  Tanks got nerfed also so it's even worse because they can't keep people off the healers as long as they could before (and heals don't have distract except once every 2-3 mins, so tank nerf also hurt healers)

Fights SHOULD last 30 minutes if nobody in either group cc's and just lets everyone freecast.   Group vs group is about focus, skills, strategy, not just press a few buttons and they all die.    If you focus your cc correctly, and focus down targets 1 by 1 , you win.   This is how you use skill to play.      Game isn't supposed to be balanced around healer vs dps class.  It's group vs group.  

I agrees shaman are ridiculous OP with passives, they barely need to do anything skill wise.  Force them to cast something to keep the passives running :/ 

Also, it looks like the CC immunity timers are not working like they used to.   They are supposed to give you immunity to the type of cc used on you for 2x the duration of the initial cc so if it's a 5s stun you are immune for 10s to stuns, however I'm being stunned NON STOP 5-6 times in a row with no immune so it makes it impossible to cast anything.  Same thing with interrupts, every time you are interrupted it's supposed to immune you for 5s, doesn't seem to be working.

Cures NEED to be back to normal recast.  They are essential and having a 30+ second recast on a group cure is just ridiculous when the dets can stack up in few seconds.

The ONLY things I think should be nerfed, and it should have been nerfed a LONG time ago is in-combat res.  The in combat res should have like a 30 minute reuse timer in pvp.   THAT is why groups vs group lasted so long before, every time 1 person die they just get res again due to like a 1 minute reuse in combat res.    Also if you die in pvp the SPAWN timer at the graveyard should be a minute or two and then when you res you don't have sickness (basically it includes the entire spawn timer + res sickness timer)  so you can't just run back and zerg.

As for crit heals in pvp, the crit bonus got nerfed into the ground, so even if the heal DOES crit, it only does so for 50% more than the original becaues crit bonus is 130% base, plus pvp crit bonus is nerfed so much it comes out to like 20%ish crit bonus even if you have 300% PVE crit bonus, so heals do 150-160% more? that's really not that much considering.   Wards aren't affected as much obviously because their crit bonus multiplier is different.   So making heals crit again would be great, it would simply be the same as buffing the base healing, which is HORRIBLE right now even with 250% potency.

Bottom line:  Put heals back how they were, fix cc immunity timers, change in combat res and spawn times, fix magic damage

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Old 08-22-2012, 05:32 AM   #51
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I gave BG's a go for the first time yesterday.  I play a warden and curing and healing is pretty ridiculous right now.  How the heck does one cure stacks of 10-20 dets PER group member and heal at the same time. 

At least I get a couple tokens for my deaths, I should have enough for my first 90 gear my Frostfell!

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:47 AM   #52
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yay i can green my group on my warden lol.. 

mit buff needs to be insta cast.  they can strip that off way too fast.  with 3k mit.. you dont have a chance.

And why the heck doesn't stoneskin block knockback abilities! 

And i retired my inquis from bg's.. that was just bad.... really? 1k reactives.. lolz.

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:58 AM   #53
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Kuulei wrote:

I gave BG's a go for the first time yesterday.  I play a warden and curing and healing is pretty ridiculous right now.  How the heck does one cure stacks of 10-20 dets PER group member and heal at the same time. 

At least I get a couple tokens for my deaths, I should have enough for my first 90 gear my Frostfell!

I'm not sure if you're playing in the lower or upper tier (guessing 90-92 per your gear remark though) so not sure if all of the AA curing options are open to you.  It is certainly challenging to cure and heal in BGs, that's for sure.  As a warden, at least, you have the option to pre-heal a wee bit with HOTs, so that can buy you a little time to cure.  Tunare's Grace AA cure is a godsend (if you'll pardon the pun) and pairs nicely with the group and solo cures.  Folks should also be using cure pots of their own in a pinch.  I personally think that our RESISTS should give us a chance to straight-up RESIST detrimentals, which is not a state that I've observed in the BGs thus far, lol.

 

After the patch yesterday, I have to say I'm happier with my healing capacity in BGs now.  Sure, I'm not going to solo heal a group taking fire from twelve wizards, but it's a good bit better than it was before.  One-on-one fights with other healers are rather glacial, though; just stand there healing self up while barely hurting opponent until teammates show up, lol.  Well, against other comparably equipped and skilled healers; there were quite a few opforce healers last night that I could take down easily who were underlevel or underdressed.  (Sorry if one of them was you, heh.)

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Old 08-22-2012, 03:21 PM   #54
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Luanne wrote:

It's fairly simple..  A healer should be able to heal through 2-3 DPS classes hitting it, as long as they don't use ANY CC or ANY interrupts.  

Soon as they CC, the game changes.   If a healer can't heal the amount that 3 or 4 dps classes put out then they are usless at keeping a group alive.  And I'm talking about AOE dmg not single target here.  Tanks got nerfed also so it's even worse because they can't keep people off the healers as long as they could before (and heals don't have distract except once every 2-3 mins, so tank nerf also hurt healers)

Fights SHOULD last 30 minutes if nobody in either group cc's and just lets everyone freecast.   Group vs group is about focus, skills, strategy, not just press a few buttons and they all die.    If you focus your cc correctly, and focus down targets 1 by 1 , you win.   This is how you use skill to play.      Game isn't supposed to be balanced around healer vs dps class.  It's group vs group.  

I agrees shaman are ridiculous OP with passives, they barely need to do anything skill wise.  Force them to cast something to keep the passives running :/ 

Also, it looks like the CC immunity timers are not working like they used to.   They are supposed to give you immunity to the type of cc used on you for 2x the duration of the initial cc so if it's a 5s stun you are immune for 10s to stuns, however I'm being stunned NON STOP 5-6 times in a row with no immune so it makes it impossible to cast anything.  Same thing with interrupts, every time you are interrupted it's supposed to immune you for 5s, doesn't seem to be working.

Cures NEED to be back to normal recast.  They are essential and having a 30+ second recast on a group cure is just ridiculous when the dets can stack up in few seconds.

The ONLY things I think should be nerfed, and it should have been nerfed a LONG time ago is in-combat res.  The in combat res should have like a 30 minute reuse timer in pvp.   THAT is why groups vs group lasted so long before, every time 1 person die they just get res again due to like a 1 minute reuse in combat res.    Also if you die in pvp the SPAWN timer at the graveyard should be a minute or two and then when you res you don't have sickness (basically it includes the entire spawn timer + res sickness timer)  so you can't just run back and zerg.

As for crit heals in pvp, the crit bonus got nerfed into the ground, so even if the heal DOES crit, it only does so for 50% more than the original becaues crit bonus is 130% base, plus pvp crit bonus is nerfed so much it comes out to like 20%ish crit bonus even if you have 300% PVE crit bonus, so heals do 150-160% more? that's really not that much considering.   Wards aren't affected as much obviously because their crit bonus multiplier is different.   So making heals crit again would be great, it would simply be the same as buffing the base healing, which is HORRIBLE right now even with 250% potency.

Bottom line:  Put heals back how they were, fix cc immunity timers, change in combat res and spawn times, fix magic damage

K...you brought up so good points....the first being that open world pvp is about group vs. group and if group A is better organized and geared than group B, group B is going to be hard pressed to kill group A.  Solo pvp touches on this as well and your best point is that pvp group or solo is not about hitting a few buttons and killing players in 30 secs or less as some seem to think its about...spot on assessment and hopefully our pvp dev is reading this....some of the best pvp fights were the ones that lasted beyond the arbitrary "5" minute time frame our new pvp devs seems to think is approriate.

Cures....you have most of the issue laid out...recast should be unnerfed but this is only a partial explanation of the nerf they have recieved.  Having standard pve recast on cures would be nice however the biggest stab (I mean "adjustment") made on healers was seriously nerfing the amount of dets cures can remove per swipe either group or single.  Your point on dets once removed are instantly replaced again boils it down to the essence of the problem.  Solution is to finally unnerf the number of dets removable in pvp by cures...recast be nice as well but its a secondary issue.  THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A NERF TO THE AMOUNT OF DETS A SOLO OR GROUP CAN PLACE ON THEIR OPPONENTS IN PVP WHY IS THERE A NERF ON HEALERS ABILITY TO DO THEIR JOB.  Thats a question I hope our new pvp dev would man up to explain.

As for in combat rezes...I have to strongly disagree with you on that.  This is a non issue plain and simple and yet another example of a fix in search of a problem.  I'm not sure why you believe this is the single biggest reason why pvp fights lasted so long before.  Before gear seperation, the main reason pvp fights lasted so long was basicly gear...players tailored this gear set up with a mix of raid and pvp gear...and while the devs finally admitted that gear seperation was probably the biggest error they ever made to pvp (long after the community basicaly told them what the end result would be) it is by far not the only nerf in pvp that needs to be undone (aka cure nerfs and proc nerf).  Spawn time is fine as well for reviving.  The problem I have been seeing with pvp nerfs and ruleset is that the dev team and sadly way too many in the open world community are looking at these problems with the rose colored glasses of battlegrounds in mind and hate to break the bubble but open world pvp and battlegrounds are 2 entirely diffrent rulesets and issues.

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Old 08-22-2012, 06:39 PM   #55
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Luanne wrote:

It's fairly simple..  A healer should be able to heal through 2-3 DPS classes hitting it, as long as they don't use ANY CC or ANY interrupts.  

Soon as they CC, the game changes.   If a healer can't heal the amount that 3 or 4 dps classes put out then they are usless at keeping a group alive.  And I'm talking about AOE dmg not single target here.  Tanks got nerfed also so it's even worse because they can't keep people off the healers as long as they could before (and heals don't have distract except once every 2-3 mins, so tank nerf also hurt healers)

Fights SHOULD last 30 minutes if nobody in either group cc's and just lets everyone freecast.   Group vs group is about focus, skills, strategy, not just press a few buttons and they all die.    If you focus your cc correctly, and focus down targets 1 by 1 , you win.   This is how you use skill to play.      Game isn't supposed to be balanced around healer vs dps class.  It's group vs group.  

I agrees shaman are ridiculous OP with passives, they barely need to do anything skill wise.  Force them to cast something to keep the passives running :/ 

Also, it looks like the CC immunity timers are not working like they used to.   They are supposed to give you immunity to the type of cc used on you for 2x the duration of the initial cc so if it's a 5s stun you are immune for 10s to stuns, however I'm being stunned NON STOP 5-6 times in a row with no immune so it makes it impossible to cast anything.  Same thing with interrupts, every time you are interrupted it's supposed to immune you for 5s, doesn't seem to be working.

Cures NEED to be back to normal recast.  They are essential and having a 30+ second recast on a group cure is just ridiculous when the dets can stack up in few seconds.

The ONLY things I think should be nerfed, and it should have been nerfed a LONG time ago is in-combat res.  The in combat res should have like a 30 minute reuse timer in pvp.   THAT is why groups vs group lasted so long before, every time 1 person die they just get res again due to like a 1 minute reuse in combat res.    Also if you die in pvp the SPAWN timer at the graveyard should be a minute or two and then when you res you don't have sickness (basically it includes the entire spawn timer + res sickness timer)  so you can't just run back and zerg.

As for crit heals in pvp, the crit bonus got nerfed into the ground, so even if the heal DOES crit, it only does so for 50% more than the original becaues crit bonus is 130% base, plus pvp crit bonus is nerfed so much it comes out to like 20%ish crit bonus even if you have 300% PVE crit bonus, so heals do 150-160% more? that's really not that much considering.   Wards aren't affected as much obviously because their crit bonus multiplier is different.   So making heals crit again would be great, it would simply be the same as buffing the base healing, which is HORRIBLE right now even with 250% potency.

Bottom line:  Put heals back how they were, fix cc immunity timers, change in combat res and spawn times, fix magic damage

I enjoyed your post. Either/or is my opinion. A healer can keep themselves healed through some significant DPS, keep their group up or DPS but not any of the two at the same time. If a healer is grouped and getting stomped by some DPS classes it would be up to his group to protect him and let him heal the group or they go down and he continues to heal himself. it shoud be startegy on both sides. Same as sorcerers they shuold be able to survive or dps but not both.

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:35 PM   #56
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As for in combat rezes...I have to strongly disagree with you on that.  This is a non issue plain and simple and yet another example of a fix in search of a problem.  I'm not sure why you believe this is the single biggest reason why pvp fights lasted so long before.  Before gear seperation, the main reason pvp fights lasted so long was basicly gear...players tailored this gear set up with a mix of raid and pvp gear...and while the devs finally admitted that gear seperation was probably the biggest error they ever made to pvp (long after the community basicaly told them what the end result would be) it is by far not the only nerf in pvp that needs to be undone (aka cure nerfs and proc nerf).  Spawn time is fine as well for reviving.  The problem I have been seeing with pvp nerfs and ruleset is that the dev team and sadly way too many in the open world community are looking at these problems with the rose colored glasses of battlegrounds in mind and hate to break the bubble but open world pvp and battlegrounds are 2 entirely diffrent rulesets and issues.

In combat res just shouldn't be such fast recast.   You have no idea how long it takes to set up a strategy, to time the entire groups temps at one time and use them in a fashion to burn one member of the opposing group down fast, finally to get them dead and poof they are instantly back up again.   I do believe this is why fights lasted so long before.  I've had hour long fights group vs group which is fun, but there's 20-30 kills during that period and they just keep resing, or reviving and running back.    Obviously I'm only talking about world pvp which most of the population has probably never experienced, but still.    it HAS to be a long fight so you can use every ability you have, and try and use strategy to win.  Having well timed cc means win or lose most of the time. Knowing how cc immunity timers work (which are broken now) was essential.  You couldn't just stun stun stun stun stun non stop in a row on someone because they got immune, so you had to stun, then stifle, then interrupt, then stun again, knockback, mez, fear, repeat and time it so they weren't immune; You had to know when to dispel buffs (like druids can dispel, and crusaders used to be able to).  That was what won , now it's just mashing buttons.  

I go into a match on my cleric healer and all I do is spam the normal group heal over and over and the small target heal because nothing else does anything. Divine guidance 2k? it's a endline aa and it does 2k with 10 ticks for the entire group? useless, normal reactive 1k non crit, not even worth casting.   While an assassin can press 2 buttons and do 40k damage in les than the cast of one of my heals.  Warlocks can hit the entire group for 20k each at a time.  

You can't expect to kill a healer if you don't cc it.  You can't expect to be able to cc it if people are constantly spamming ccs on it making it proc immunes.  Can't expect to mez someone if they are loaded up with dots , you have to strategize, have a bruiser yank a healer away from the group even 10 meters and then mez it, then fear it, etc while you burn down one of their group members.  All that strategy seems to be gone now. 

If the devs want to make it more skill based they need to actually change the entire spells how they work in PVP like they did with some of the tank skills where it does a completely differe thing in pvp vs pve like doom judge.   Spiritual leadership in PVP just giving an example here should only proc if the shaman successfully lands a melee attack, shroud of armor should have to maintained somehow, we need more abilities for every class like stonewall where it blocks incoming attacks for a few seconds.  

You know the game really wasn't that bad in TSO when we used raid gear for pvp, it was just there was too many bad players and anyone without the raid gear was at a huge disadvantage which was bad. 

How about this.. Remove crits entirely in pvp, there's no reason for them anyway.  There's no reason for a 'chance' or 'luck' modifier.  On top of that there's absolutely NO reason for the ABSURD DPS people do in PVE. Why can't you just lower the health of the raid mobs and keep everyones DPS closer to PVP DPS so it's easier to balance?  That's another thing that makes no sense, it really does not matter at ALL what your DPS is as long as the health of the mobs are adjusted to fit it.    Having such a huge disparity in pve/pvp skills is causing things like what we see now where the crit bonus just falls off.  Why do all this complex math when you could just make both pve and pvp the same with the exception of some cc abilities where they would last a long time pve but duration is shorter in pvp. Maybe the marketing people want to give people insanely huge dps parses to keep them happy?   It's just a relative number , the actual # means nothing by itself. 

I really do love this game and I hope they balance it out more for skill based than whoever has the best gear.  I do agree gear should make SOME difference but it shouldn't be to the point where the other person has absolutely no chance, ever.    In SF the amount of heal procs on gear DPS and tank classes could use was a big reason of long 1v1 fights.  I, personally, would love to have more 'temps' or 'cooldowns' or 'counter abilities'; things like stonewall, spell reflect, detargets, detaunts, even like 2 second mez; this takes skill to know WHEN to use it and if you use it at the wrong time that could cost you the fight, but at least you know why you lost and it's something you can strive to get better at.  But when you get 1 shot or 2 shot and there's just nothing you can do, it's VERY discouraging. Everyone just says 'get better gear', but the months it takes to get better gear you get tired, upset, frustrated, because it sucks doing it.   

I still think TSO was one of the best expansions PVE wise, and also PVP wise provided everyone had the same crit mit. (if they had just removed crits in pvp entirely in this expansion it would have been perfect [ except heals still had to crit or they would be too low ] ) Even before TSO it was good, but fights were too short then.  Mostly ganking was going on SMILEY A good example of balance would be the paladin class in TSO. It was low DPS (took a while to kill someone even if they didn't heal at all) but very hard to kill so it balanced out, until everyone got gear with massive heal procs then it wasn't possible to kill anything any more.

Wow that's a huge wall of text! hah.. I've played multiple handfulls of MMOs and I have a very good idea of how things should be balanced.   I've beta tested many, made suggestions, most companies seem to not listen.   These are after all, games, and being a game, we want to have fun playing it, and when it's not fun, we unsub.  Fun means hard fights, i actually ENJOY trying to figure out a raid boss even if it means wiping 10 times in a row because each time we make progress that is noticable and we figure out what is wrong and fix it.   

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:40 PM   #57
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I enjoyed your post. Either/or is my opinion. A healer can keep themselves healed through some significant DPS, keep their group up or DPS but not any of the two at the same time. If a healer is grouped and getting stomped by some DPS classes it would be up to his group to protect him and let him heal the group or they go down and he continues to heal himself. it shoud be startegy on both sides. Same as sorcerers they shuold be able to survive or dps but not both.

Thanks.  I agree too, there has to be a tradeoff somewhere.  If the sorc specs for tanking pvp their damage should be reduced considerably.   If a healer goes into 'offensive' stance from the shadow tree it should reduce healing considerably but also considerably up the DPS.  Switching stances in combat would allow more strategy, possibly making them instant cast with a cooldown so you couldn't pop to heal stance cast a heal and pop back to dps.  There's so many things they can do to make it more strategy based and skill based, and we know SOE is good at revamping the entire game mechanics in one update so why not just change the entire thing in the next patch SMILEY

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Old 08-25-2012, 01:31 AM   #58
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Luanne wrote:

As for in combat rezes...I have to strongly disagree with you on that.  This is a non issue plain and simple and yet another example of a fix in search of a problem.  I'm not sure why you believe this is the single biggest reason why pvp fights lasted so long before.  Before gear seperation, the main reason pvp fights lasted so long was basicly gear...players tailored this gear set up with a mix of raid and pvp gear...and while the devs finally admitted that gear seperation was probably the biggest error they ever made to pvp (long after the community basicaly told them what the end result would be) it is by far not the only nerf in pvp that needs to be undone (aka cure nerfs and proc nerf).  Spawn time is fine as well for reviving.  The problem I have been seeing with pvp nerfs and ruleset is that the dev team and sadly way too many in the open world community are looking at these problems with the rose colored glasses of battlegrounds in mind and hate to break the bubble but open world pvp and battlegrounds are 2 entirely diffrent rulesets and issues.

In combat res just shouldn't be such fast recast.   You have no idea how long it takes to set up a strategy, to time the entire groups temps at one time and use them in a fashion to burn one member of the opposing group down fast, finally to get them dead and poof they are instantly back up again.   I do believe this is why fights lasted so long before.  I've had hour long fights group vs group which is fun, but there's 20-30 kills during that period and they just keep resing, or reviving and running back.    Obviously I'm only talking about world pvp which most of the population has probably never experienced, but still.    it HAS to be a long fight so you can use every ability you have, and try and use strategy to win.  Having well timed cc means win or lose most of the time. Knowing how cc immunity timers work (which are broken now) was essential.  You couldn't just stun stun stun stun stun non stop in a row on someone because they got immune, so you had to stun, then stifle, then interrupt, then stun again, knockback, mez, fear, repeat and time it so they weren't immune; You had to know when to dispel buffs (like druids can dispel, and crusaders used to be able to).  That was what won , now it's just mashing buttons.  

I go into a match on my cleric healer and all I do is spam the normal group heal over and over and the small target heal because nothing else does anything. Divine guidance 2k? it's a endline aa and it does 2k with 10 ticks for the entire group? useless, normal reactive 1k non crit, not even worth casting.   While an assassin can press 2 buttons and do 40k damage in les than the cast of one of my heals.  Warlocks can hit the entire group for 20k each at a time.  

You can't expect to kill a healer if you don't cc it.  You can't expect to be able to cc it if people are constantly spamming ccs on it making it proc immunes.  Can't expect to mez someone if they are loaded up with dots , you have to strategize, have a bruiser yank a healer away from the group even 10 meters and then mez it, then fear it, etc while you burn down one of their group members.  All that strategy seems to be gone now. 

If the devs want to make it more skill based they need to actually change the entire spells how they work in PVP like they did with some of the tank skills where it does a completely differe thing in pvp vs pve like doom judge.   Spiritual leadership in PVP just giving an example here should only proc if the shaman successfully lands a melee attack, shroud of armor should have to maintained somehow, we need more abilities for every class like stonewall where it blocks incoming attacks for a few seconds.  

You know the game really wasn't that bad in TSO when we used raid gear for pvp, it was just there was too many bad players and anyone without the raid gear was at a huge disadvantage which was bad. 

How about this.. Remove crits entirely in pvp, there's no reason for them anyway.  There's no reason for a 'chance' or 'luck' modifier.  On top of that there's absolutely NO reason for the ABSURD DPS people do in PVE. Why can't you just lower the health of the raid mobs and keep everyones DPS closer to PVP DPS so it's easier to balance?  That's another thing that makes no sense, it really does not matter at ALL what your DPS is as long as the health of the mobs are adjusted to fit it.    Having such a huge disparity in pve/pvp skills is causing things like what we see now where the crit bonus just falls off.  Why do all this complex math when you could just make both pve and pvp the same with the exception of some cc abilities where they would last a long time pve but duration is shorter in pvp. Maybe the marketing people want to give people insanely huge dps parses to keep them happy?   It's just a relative number , the actual # means nothing by itself. 

I really do love this game and I hope they balance it out more for skill based than whoever has the best gear.  I do agree gear should make SOME difference but it shouldn't be to the point where the other person has absolutely no chance, ever.    In SF the amount of heal procs on gear DPS and tank classes could use was a big reason of long 1v1 fights.  I, personally, would love to have more 'temps' or 'cooldowns' or 'counter abilities'; things like stonewall, spell reflect, detargets, detaunts, even like 2 second mez; this takes skill to know WHEN to use it and if you use it at the wrong time that could cost you the fight, but at least you know why you lost and it's something you can strive to get better at.  But when you get 1 shot or 2 shot and there's just nothing you can do, it's VERY discouraging. Everyone just says 'get better gear', but the months it takes to get better gear you get tired, upset, frustrated, because it sucks doing it.   

I still think TSO was one of the best expansions PVE wise, and also PVP wise provided everyone had the same crit mit. (if they had just removed crits in pvp entirely in this expansion it would have been perfect [ except heals still had to crit or they would be too low ] ) Even before TSO it was good, but fights were too short then.  Mostly ganking was going on A good example of balance would be the paladin class in TSO. It was low DPS (took a while to kill someone even if they didn't heal at all) but very hard to kill so it balanced out, until everyone got gear with massive heal procs then it wasn't possible to kill anything any more.

Wow that's a huge wall of text! hah.. I've played multiple handfulls of MMOs and I have a very good idea of how things should be balanced.   I've beta tested many, made suggestions, most companies seem to not listen.   These are after all, games, and being a game, we want to have fun playing it, and when it's not fun, we unsub.  Fun means hard fights, i actually ENJOY trying to figure out a raid boss even if it means wiping 10 times in a row because each time we make progress that is noticable and we figure out what is wrong and fix it.   

LOL...I've been pvping on pvp servers for over 7 years now...and have taken part in some wicked long group versus group fights...and the zerg which so I've seen it all and done it all but I will agree today's pvp is no where near the feel and rewarding as pvp of old...as you said button mashing...but what we have now is a consistent push for a nerf of healers more and more and tbh its getting to the poit where healers will simply stop pvping unless forced to...its easier to water down healer abilities then actually address the dps classes...but whatever I semi-retired from pvp as today's version is nothing more than watered down approach to appeal to the masses especially those who couldnt and shouldnt have started pvping to begin with...too many garbage players who still can play their classes but expect to with via 2 or 3 buttons in under 30 secs.

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