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Old 10-22-2011, 04:19 PM   #1
baranlron

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So my main is a necro. I'm happy with him and have been playing since launch but I decided earlier this year to branch out and try something new. Along came my Inquisitor... fun class. I'm now level 90 with 198 AA and I'm one step (Cella) away from my epic ER. I just played my first heroic dungeon (Pools) as a healer and I gotta say its way more work to play as a healer than dps. From reading the strategies I knew to always keep up Malevolent Diatribe at ALL times. I did this throughout the dungeon but I also kept penance on our tank at all times. During hard fights I found myself using the group heal way more often than any of the single target heals and I didn't use the instant emergency reactives at all. So my questions are this.

  1. When both reactive heals are up (MD on the group) and Penance of the tank do they both proc when the tank starts to take a beating? So mob A hits our tank and he gets healed twice by both reactives.
  2. As an Inq should I be using my emergency reactives as they pop or truly wait for an emergency?
  3. This could be because I'm a noob healer but I found myself spamming heals the entire fight and thus doing little DPS. Is there a proper rotation to reactives up, group heal if needed, bust out the battle axe repeat... Again I was probably just nervous on my first watch as a healer and wanted to keep everyone up.
  4. The primary group heal seems to be pretty important. Are you using this way more than the single target heal?
  5. Is it just me or do "uba tanks" who like to pull an entire room of mobs in pools drive you crazy? As a necro I didn't care as long as I could nuke and use my AOEs. As a healer man that blows through mana (and nerves) like none other =)

Thanks for the help guys. I'll be moving up to ascent and maybe even spires soon. lol

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Old 10-23-2011, 01:55 AM   #2
S_M_I_T_E

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baranlron wrote:

So my main is a necro. I'm happy with him and have been playing since launch but I decided earlier this year to branch out and try something new. Along came my Inquisitor... fun class. I'm now level 90 with 198 AA and I'm one step (Cella) away from my epic ER. I just played my first heroic dungeon (Pools) as a healer and I gotta say its way more work to play as a healer than dps. From reading the strategies I knew to always keep up Malevolent Diatribe at ALL times. I did this throughout the dungeon but I also kept penance on our tank at all times. During hard fights I found myself using the group heal way more often than any of the single target heals and I didn't use the instant emergency reactives at all. So my questions are this.

  1. When both reactive heals are up (MD on the group) and Penance of the tank do they both proc when the tank starts to take a beating? So mob A hits our tank and he gets healed twice by both reactives.
  2. As an Inq should I be using my emergency reactives as they pop or truly wait for an emergency?
  3. This could be because I'm a noob healer but I found myself spamming heals the entire fight and thus doing little DPS. Is there a proper rotation to reactives up, group heal if needed, bust out the battle axe repeat... Again I was probably just nervous on my first watch as a healer and wanted to keep everyone up.
  4. The primary group heal seems to be pretty important. Are you using this way more than the single target heal?
  5. Is it just me or do "uba tanks" who like to pull an entire room of mobs in pools drive you crazy? As a necro I didn't care as long as I could nuke and use my AOEs. As a healer man that blows through mana (and nerves) like none other =)

Thanks for the help guys. I'll be moving up to ascent and maybe even spires soon. lol

Constructively I think I can be of assistance:

In no particular order....

Step 1: Think of an Inq differently than Temp.

1a. Finish Cella.

1b. Read all spell descriptions and think of when what would be used for and why the Devs created them like they are in their current state given AA options.

2. Break 130 Potency and 130 Crit Bonus with DOV gear.  It's crazy that the difference between 110 and 130 is bigger than one thinks.  I was in Demetrick's Bastion and accidently had on tradeskill gear in 3 slots and that was enough to go from no heals required to every 3 buttons was 1 heal cast to solo DB back on DOV launch.

3. Preward tanks with Penance and stack the debuffs, punishments, and CA's all over mobs interrupting and reducing their damage output requiring you to heal less.  Use Alleviation as your 'do all' heal.  One cast = full health for the whole group practically.  If you get battle dressing, use the Punishment endline. etc. you can be creating a decent healing cushion from your debuff and attacking requiring less direct healing and pre-reactives.  If you're doing all the things you can do you really only need Penance unless you're healing Maulhammer at the end of Ascent with a non-90 tank in 80 T2 TSO gear.

4. Make sure your AA's are synergistically aligned.  Certain combinations stack better than others and I don't mean just the Cleric tree choices.

5. Chillling Invigoration = my /afk ~3s healing the tank while I do other things in the middle of a spiking fight.  Emergencies are less important than they used to be.  I only cast them when some mage is going down and I'm too busy to change my target and Alleviation won't go off in time to save them.

6. Divine Guidance = cushy 'less heal required' time for the group.  Great for mage protection.

7. I never used the group reactive (it's just not necessary even when I was in PQ gear) until I required a groupwide cushion for squishies in an X4 environment for a particular fight solo healing them.

ex: Here's an Ad-lib sample casting in DOV heroic that isn't overhealing.

In PQ gear 300 AA: Cast Penance on Tank, HO pushed, as tank is pulling Forced Obedience goes on, Condemn, slide a CA, Repentance next, Litany Circle, Deny, Vengence, CA ,CA, Penance, CA, etc.  Read the timings and keep all 3 spell debuffs up.  When someone needs healing I don't change target I just hit Alleviation.  Also, some mobs just don't live long enough to warrant the debuffs.  I may not use them on trash that is 2 shotted.

In X4 raid gear with war runes: Cast group reactive pre-pull to make revered lands proc - then debuff/attack/punish while halcyon goes off with battle dressing and punishments. 

Obvoiusly Ascent Pools will be different than Drunder and I can say that fortress spire was annoying with the 2nd to the last mob with 3 snakes in PQ gear.  That cast example changes based on who you're with, how much grumba you have, and what is going on around you.  But under no time have I ever found myself chain casting heals only unless the tank was 80 in lvl 70 gear.

Think of reactives as cushions. It depends on the tank, the group, and the pull rate.  Everyone worships wards for preventing damage.  Few think of the damage that is negated and reduced from the debuffs, stun, knockdown, interrupts, etc. by attacking as an Inq and tossing the occasional Penance and Alleviation out.  Basically because ACT doesn't really do a spanktastic job of communicating classes' credit for debuff effects.  On a really hard oncoming pull the group reactive is great to help cushion loose mobs but chain casting it isn't the most efficient way to play the class no matter what gear you happen to have at the moment

You'll have to be the judge of how big YOUR Alleviation happens to be.  At this stage of the game most tanks might not even need constant healing if they're raid geared and pulling whole rooms.  Group reactive takes longer to cast than the 12 triggers (if you have armor with focus effects) last.  12 triggers lasts long enough for the cast time on a single target hitting the thank but if they're pulling 9 mobs at a time or whatever those triggers are gone pretty quick. 

In PQ gear you can easily do 15-25K depending on your AA and particular upgrades.  By not attacking you're not interrupting/reducing the mob's DPS etc. as I mentinoed above making it seem like you need to chain heal.

Obviously I'm not the only one driving an Inq as a main but even if the others might disagree with some of my pointers or point out things I left out in the ramble I believe we'd all say in unison that if you're chain healing your undergeared, your tank is undergeared, or you need a Templar lobotomy.

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Old 10-24-2011, 06:24 PM   #3
luinnil

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Playing a heal-specialized Inquisitor (i.e. one focused on healing a tank particularly), I find there's a fair portion of SMITE's post I don't agree with, excepting if you're just curb-stomping a zone or paired up with a second healer in an easy DoV zone and you're really kitted out.  His advice is very good for healing non-tank groups in x4 raids or being a simple support healer.  If you are under the assumption that you have help or are not going to need to bust out the serious healing, go for it.  I heal things like Drunder / Elements of War (both easy and hard although we can't finish hard at the moment) as well as am in the MT group in x4 raids, or solo heal Kael zones.

Most of the advice that follows is under the assumption you are dealing with hard fights that require actual healing power and are not going into let's say Pools with 180% CB/Pot and your tank is in raid gear.

- Gear / adorn for cast speed!  Most important piece of advice.

- Malevolent Diatribe should be up always on named fights, but you're going to need a lot of casting speed.  20-30% of my healing comes from this spell in normal raid/group situations, less in an intensely spiky fight but it's still worth it.  Always cast this pre-pull, it has the benefit of proccing war runes / other procs a lot because it's slow.

Proper usage of Malevolent Diatribe in a spike situation is to cast Penance, then Malevolent Diatribe, then Penance again.  You want the Penance triggers acting as a buffer while it takes 2.5 seconds (I'm assuming 100% cast speed here) to cast Diatribe.  If your tank is not spiking down, Penance is much faster and better than Malevolent Diatribe, this part is right.

I have never seen Malevolent Diatribe go down faster than it takes to cast except on highly add heavy fights, and those are typically exactly the fights I need the triggers for burst healing.

- Once you get the ER buff, learn to love the unmyth cure.  Single cure should not be on your primary hotbar.  Unmyth and normal group cure are 1 and 2 on my main hotbar, and I will cast the unmyth cure to cure a single detriment when I am in group zones because it's more efficient and heals them.  In raids or encounters with lots of AEs I do save them and manually click on the detriment on the group window to cure it.

- Inquisitor debuffs are practically worthless, especially Forced Obedience.  I always cast Condemn and Deny anyway, but I haven't really noticed that Deny helps much.  If you find yourself thinking of casting Forced Obedience just hit Skull Crack instead, you'll achieve the same lack of debuffing but actually do some damage.  Vengeance and Repentance are not debuffs, they are your best damage abilities and they also heal, use them.  Heresy is terrible and SoE will probably never fix it, but could be amazing if they did.

- You want to be 1h and shield, and have the Holy Shield and Steadfast end-lines.  Shield Ally can absorb a lot of damage!  Also holy shield is great macroed to yourself.

- Chilling Invigoration should typically be cast whenever it's up.  The DPS it gives to the tank is obscene and helps them hold aggro.  Only save this in reserve if you are at the complete edge of your abilities heal-wise.  While it's up, again unless you're at the edge of your abilities heal wise, it's DPS time.

- Divine Guidance should be cast on nasty multiple mob encounters at the start in the hopes that your DPS can kill one or more enemy before it falls (Drunder x4 trash, EoW trash).  If you're lazing through zones cast this whenever it's up and just do DPS instead.  Otherwise save it for spikes / other healer going down / big AE that might kill the mages in one shot.

- If you are good and your group is good about not pulling aggro or standing in stupid places, Alleviation will almost never need to be cast.  If these are not true, Alleviation is better than a single heal in almost every circumstance, you are not wasting time changing targets.

- Ministration > Fanatical Healing.  It's quick and can shove 40-50% of a tank's health back with decent gear.  I try to avoid casting Fanatical Healing, just use Alleviation anytime you would have wanted to cast Fanatical Healing.

- Sacrifice is amazing in combination with Holy Shield, but don't put points into the Heroic improvement for it.  Sacrifice is a one a dungeon type of ability for me but when you really need it, it comes through for you.  If you anticipate a possible use of it, Holy Shield yourself first so you won't get AEd after use.

- Inquisitor heal stance is mostly garbage.  Do not use it unless you cannot keep a tank up while in DPS stance.  If you are not auto-attacking and throwing CAs between heals, you are not doing it right.  I do 30k dps in heal stance and 50-60k in dps stance while still in the MT group healing.  Our inqs in dps groups do 90-110k dps.  On truly horrible fights I probably only manage 15k dps but the point is I'm still hitting things even if it's just auto-attack and repentance/vengeance.

- I chain cast heals a lot.  Proccing stuff like Deathless Devotion, Greater Aegis, Descent of Kael, Foundations of Stone is pretty integral to MT survival in raids / nasty zones.  This is less useful outside of these situations, and you probably will stop doing it excepting in rare circumstances.

EDIT

After my raid tonight I decided to post my heal breakdown.  ACT and EQ2 are on the other computer so I'm just giving very lazy numbers.  I'm grouped with a Mystic pretty much always, tonight we had an SK main tanking.

EM Temple, one pull on Statue that killed it

HPS - 653524%- Atoning Faith (Malevolent Diatribe)10%- Descent of Kael <-- kind of an anomaly, this rune is abnormally good on Statue9%- Vengeful Faith (Penance)8%- Convert Ally8%- Divine Guidance7%- Penitent Cleansing (Unmyth Cure)7%- Deathless Devotion5%- Battle Dressing4%- Greater Aegis4%- Chilling Invigoration3%- Conversion of the Soul3%- Reforming Soul2%- Allied Prayers2%- Divine Armor1%- Alleviation  (5th worst on the list!)ExtDPS - 16k  (Statue's not a great fight for my DPS)

EM Sullon's X4, Trash and first named

HPS - 788227%- Divine Guidance25%- Atoning Faith (Malevolent Diatribe)16%- Vengeful Faith (Penance)5%- Deathless Devotion4%- Chilling Invigoration4%- Convert Ally4%- Divine Armor4%- Alleviation4%- Greater Aegis 12%- Allied Prayers(some random garbage)EXT DPS - 26.6k

According to the tank's avoidance report, Shield Ally was worth 1329 HPS.  I have no idea if that is trustworthy.

I was in heal stance both times.

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Old 10-25-2011, 04:55 PM   #4
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luinnil wrote:

Playing a heal-specialized Inquisitor (i.e. one focused on healing a tank particularly), I find there's a fair portion of SMITE's post I don't agree with, excepting if you're just curb-stomping a zone or paired up with a second healer in an easy DoV zone and you're really kitted out.  His advice is very good for healing non-tank groups in x4 raids or being a simple support healer.  If you are under the assumption that you have help or are not going to need to bust out the serious healing, go for it.  I heal things like Drunder / Elements of War (both easy and hard although we can't finish hard at the moment) as well as am in the MT group in x4 raids, or solo heal Kael zones.

I personally learned from your post as I am sure the OP did.  No sarcasm here.

I am suprised that any Inq (outside of being a MT X4 healer) would still be running a defensive playstyle with everyone so overgeared (heals, DPS, tanks, etc.) this late in DOV even in EOW/Drunder. 

Although I completely agree with everything you said for solo healing hard 'geared appropriately at content' in your outline minus the Debuffs = worthless. 

I think the mechanics team would disagree with your assessment of Deny, Condemn, Heresy (not a debuff i am aware), and Forced Obedience.  In an X4 environment it's hard to see how one person's debuffs matter but in Heroic content they can matter.  Like I said to the OP ACT requires reverse engineering to see their effects and most the the playerbase only sees DPS and HPS.  Also, the experiments on Shield Ally I've seen show that it isn't as uber as advertised on well geared tanks. 

To see Deny's effects spec it out and go get a SF fighter mob to beat on you by body pulling.  Watch the numbers over your head.  Kill it.  Pull an identical mob using the mastered' AA'd out Deny and observe the numbers over your head.  They're smaller. 

Condemn is a mini-dispatch that can be up all the time with ease so it's value is clear. 

Forced Obedience lowers the mobs skills so the effective 'hit rate' (THACO) on your tank is lowered.  If you've specced it to lower mob defense via AA your tank and melee members 'hit rate' on the mob should increase as well.  This is more valuable in a 6 person group in Heroic content as in Raid content casting or not casting it doesn't result in a fail condition. 

Skull crack + Forced Obedience = Very Good at reducing non-epic mob 'hit rates' or as they say in the old days (THACO).

Repentance and Heresy both stun their targets.  Heresy goes off on more mobs than it used to. 

The OP decribed tanks mass pulling rooms which made me think he's running with Raid geared alt tanks stomping zones to which filtered my response appropriately.

OP. As you can see the Inq community has different variants of players utilizing the same spell choices in different ways.  I have chosen mine after a careful consideration of the actual effectiveness for all non-raiding parts of the game.

Edited for addition of Debuff Justifications.

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Old 10-25-2011, 05:17 PM   #5
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Also what may be helpful no matter which side of the Inq coin the OP ends up choosing...

Cures (& heals for those who prioritize them) should have the following:

Macro:

Line 1 clears your que: /cl

Line 2 stops your current casting: /cancel_spellcast

Line 3: /group chat communicating said effect so you get proper credit

Line 4: / whatever you spell is

This way if you're in the middle of something like the ghastly slow group reactive (even at 110% cast speed) and you need to cure you won't always be handicapped to moving to interrupt it.

I experimented with all spells with this but I find the que is needed for debuffs and DPS otherwise there are gaps in output.  Put this stuff on the 2 group cures, your 5 heals, and divine guidance and you'll be pretty much set.

Honestly in EQNext all cures and heals need this 'built in' from the start although all other spells should NOT have it as queing is important for efficiency.

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Old 10-25-2011, 05:51 PM   #6
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A twist on the above that I use for group cures.  

(These are not exact commands, I don't have it in front of me, just enough to get the idea across)

  • /clear cast queue 
  • /cancel spellcast
  • /useability Myth Group Cure
  • /useability Regular Group Cure
  • /clear cast queue
  • /gsay Group cure pressed  

This gives me one button, that when pressed cancels the current spell I'm casting, immediatly throws *one* group cure (whichever is up), does not cure the other, and announces it so other healers know it's taken care of.

The idea of doing something similar for all other frequently casted abilities (without the /gsay) so I can DPS freely but instant cast healing related spells when necessary, is an interresting idea I may play with...

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Old 10-25-2011, 05:57 PM   #7
luinnil

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S_M_I_T_E wrote:

luinnil wrote:

Playing a heal-specialized Inquisitor (i.e. one focused on healing a tank particularly), I find there's a fair portion of SMITE's post I don't agree with, excepting if you're just curb-stomping a zone or paired up with a second healer in an easy DoV zone and you're really kitted out.  His advice is very good for healing non-tank groups in x4 raids or being a simple support healer.  If you are under the assumption that you have help or are not going to need to bust out the serious healing, go for it.  I heal things like Drunder / Elements of War (both easy and hard although we can't finish hard at the moment) as well as am in the MT group in x4 raids, or solo heal Kael zones.

I personally learned from your post as I am sure the OP did.  No sarcasm here.

I am suprised that any Inq (outside of being a MT X4 healer) would still be running a defensive playstyle with everyone so overgeared (heals, DPS, tanks, etc.) this late in DOV even in EOW/Drunder. 

Although I completely agree with everything you said for solo healing hard 'geared appropriately at content' in your outline minus the Debuffs = worthless. 

I think the mechanics team would disagree with your assessment of Deny, Condemn, Heresy (not a debuff i am aware), and Forced Obedience.  In an X4 environment it's hard to see how one person's debuffs matter but in Heroic content they can matter.  Like I said to the OP ACT requires reverse engineering to see their effects and most the the playerbase only sees DPS and HPS.  Also, the experiments on Shield Ally I've seen show that it isn't as uber as advertised on well geared tanks. 

To see Deny's effects spec it out and go get a SF fighter mob to beat on you by body pulling.  Watch the numbers over your head.  Kill it.  Pull an identical mob using the mastered' AA'd out Deny and observe the numbers over your head.  They're smaller. 

Condemn is a mini-dispatch that can be up all the time with ease so it's value is clear. 

Forced Obedience lowers the mobs skills so the effective 'hit rate' (THACO) on your tank is lowered.  If you've specced it to lower mob defense via AA your tank and melee members 'hit rate' on the mob should increase as well.  This is more valuable in a 6 person group in Heroic content as in Raid content casting or not casting it doesn't result in a fail condition.

Repentance and Heresy both stun their targets.  Heresy goes off on more mobs than it used to. 

The OP decribed tanks mass pulling rooms which made me think he's running with Raid geared alt tanks stomping zones to which filtered my response appropriately.

EOW hard mode is ludicrous, and even EM is not a piece of cake.  We run it with a raid geared Guardian tank and a Mystic/Defiler and Inquisitor as healers.  When I'm the Inquisitor I really can't be slacking or in DPS stance.  The tank can abruptly die in 1.5 seconds on the final guy in EM, and the first guy in HM can spin and wipe out three people in a second (not to mention the trash in HM can kill the tank through Divine Guidance).  I am not in the ultra deluxe hardcore guilds that are clearing all of HM raid content, I think those people would have it easier.

I keep Condemn up all the time on names because it lasts a long time and while 1k is not a lot of debuffing, it helps.  Deny I keep up or don't depending on how hard the encounter is.  I mostly raid so it's reallly hard to tell any difference, and heroic content with the exception of Drunder/EoW is too easy for me to care.  I am guessing it reduces the damage of the mob by about 2%, but if you have solid numbers I would appreciate them!  Forced Obedience up until the last GU did nothing on modern content, no heroic/raid mob ever bothered checking any type of avoidance other than uncontested avoidance.  You can verify this with ACT or just ask any serious tank.  Given that overcapped combat skills bring the min-max of the combat arts closer together, it is now possible that Forced Obedience does 'something', but given the exceedingly diminishing returns and the fact that I bet raid/heroic mobs are boosted to crazysauce levels on those skills, I'm betting it's a <.1% difference at best.  If you are running solo content or very old heroic zones where mobs can be parried / dodged on the contested parry/dodge, Forced Obedience works.

Heresy does go off on more mobs than it used to, but it would need a duration the length of Vengeance to be worth it.  You'll probably lower your DPS trying to finagle it in unless your reuse speed is not high enough to be able to chain other abilities.  I actually can't get a Vengeance to finish proccing before the reuse speed is up most of the time and the rare times I bother to use Heresy in raids it procs like 8 times for the entire zone.

Macros are a great suggestion I forgot in my original post, definitely do those the way listed above.

Random Extra Tidbits of Wisdom:

- Divine Guidance can be cast while moving!  This is a great spell to save for a running around portion of a fight if people are going to need to move and get hit at the same time.

- Sacrifice is instant and thus also can be cast while moving.  With the Range improver endline it has an obscene 45m range (50 if you're with a Troubador).   If your tank managed to blitz off past you and you didn't notice (or more typically for me the OT is dying but across the room) this is amazing.  EDIT:  Also also good for if you get punted flying.  We can cure while in the air but being able to heal while you and the tank are punted in opposite directions is often handy.

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Old 10-25-2011, 08:05 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

A twist on the above that I use for group cures.  

(These are not exact commands, I don't have it in front of me, just enough to get the idea across)

  • /clear cast queue 
  • /cancel spellcast
  • /useability Myth Group Cure
  • /useability Regular Group Cure
  • /clear cast queue
  • /gsay Group cure pressed  

This gives me one button, that when pressed cancels the current spell I'm casting, immediatly throws *one* group cure (whichever is up), does not cure the other, and announces it so other healers know it's taken care of.

The idea of doing something similar for all other frequently casted abilities (without the /gsay) so I can DPS freely but instant cast healing related spells when necessary, is an interresting idea I may play with...

I thought about this too but I find strategic use of the ~0.5s cast Myth cure vs the ~1.0s Group cure not to mention the cure while moving component of the Myth cure had me choose not to compile both into one. 

Also various detriments especially in DOV X4 seem to tick faster and more devastating than others so I tend to try and strategically save the faster casting one for the fast ticking fail traumas that sneak in here and there on mob design.

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Old 10-25-2011, 08:11 PM   #9
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I actually have two macros, one with the myth cure first, the other with the regular group cure first.  This allows me to give each it's own appropriate icon (depending on which is primary), and set each's primary spell appropriatly so it displays the correct cooldown.  End result, I can fire either deliberatly, but if the one I hit is down, the other goes instead.

So far, it's worked very well for me.

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Old 10-25-2011, 08:26 PM   #10
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luinnil wrote:

EOW hard mode is ludicrous, and even EM is not a piece of cake.  We run it with a raid geared Guardian tank...

....If you are running solo content or very old heroic zones where mobs can be parried / dodged on the contested parry/dodge, Forced Obedience works.

Heresy does go off on more mobs than it used to, but it would need a duration the length of Vengeance to be worth it.  You'll probably lower your DPS trying to finagle it in unless your reuse speed is not high enough to be able to chain other abilities.  I actually can't get a Vengeance to finish proccing before the reuse speed is up most of the time and the rare times I bother to use Heresy in raids it procs like 8 times for the entire zone.

Macros are a great suggestion I forgot in my original post, definitely do those the way listed above.

Random Extra Tidbits of Wisdom:

- Divine Guidance can be cast while moving!  This is a great spell to save for a running around portion of a fight if people are going to need to move and get hit at the same time.

- Sacrifice is instant and thus also can be cast while moving.  With the Range improver endline it has an obscene 45m range (50 if you're with a Troubador).   If your tank managed to blitz off past you and you didn't notice (or more typically for me the OT is dying but across the room) this is amazing.  EDIT:  Also also good for if you get punted flying.  We can cure while in the air but being able to heal while you and the tank are punted in opposite directions is often handy.

I agree with everything you just wrote.  I was lazy on mentioning sacrifice as it is very good but I haven't been in a single player hp fail condiiton in quite awhile since any of the direct heals with sufficient 170+ CB/Pot = full health usually for a tank. 

I agree the current end-Heroic content was designed to challenge X4 EM geared players (I'm also in that club).  I personally think EOW is our current day Nizara.   

I'll do some homework on Deny and post it here.   

I think both of us are giving clear examples to the Devs how class skills are breaking down as inflation rises.  Maybe these are some of the hidden reasons why 90 is here to stay for awhile. 

I agree in old content 'on the way up' or soloing old content under 130CB/CC before mentoring skill debuffs matter much more.  Although on DOV launch I found that otter gear'd tanks did benefit from shield ally, forced obedience, etc. in Ascent and Fortress Spire.

But with the advent of war runes, absurd crit bonus and potency (vs the old days), etc. any non-modern EQ2 content has become a single or 2 player game. 

With mercenaries EQ2 will be a great Bethesda style Elder Scrolls product.  Maybe that is what Smoke had in mind as a business.  Not a bad plan to use old content for ultra casuals. 

Semi-casual players really should have 2 or 3 mains.  1 for current content to keep running the gear cycle (crit mit adorns and all) and a other modern pegged characters optimized for non-DOV content for moseying on off time. People with 6 DOV geared 90s (not I or ?perhaps you?)  are the ones that really need the EOW style zones to fill in the gaps between raids.

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Old 10-25-2011, 08:28 PM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

I actually have two macros, one with the myth cure first, the other with the regular group cure first.  This allows me to give each it's own appropriate icon (depending on which is primary), and set each's primary spell appropriatly so it displays the correct cooldown.  End result, I can fire either deliberatly, but if the one I hit is down, the other goes instead.

So far, it's worked very well for me.

Slick enough then.

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Old 10-25-2011, 11:15 PM   #12
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I understand what you mean about 'debuffs meaning more' when you have undergeared tanks, but I'm not kidding.  Forced Obedience literally does nothing to help a tank (or anyone) dodge heroic DoV content, and I can't imagine why you would need it solo.  It might do something if you took the AAs that make it also debuff the mob's defenses, then you could hit more.  I have an SK that I mained for quite a while, and the fact that avoidance was completely meaningless (except uncontested Block) all throuhg SF and DoV has been a pet peeve of mine.

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Old 10-26-2011, 02:33 PM   #13
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First, let me say there is a ton of good information in the response to this question. I would recommend reading and re-reading it as you continue to learn. Now I'll throw in my 2 cents.

  • If you are just learning to be a heroic content healer I would say - don't worry about DPS. That is someone elses job. Your job is to make sure everyone stays alive. This can and should evolve as you get more comfortable but don't feel bad if for a while you are running in Heal stance and putting out nearly 0 DPS.
    • However, a very easy step forward from this is to put all of your offensive combat arts in one macro. That way you can concentrate on healing first but soon after the pull position yourself behind the mob hit that quick key and now you are auto attacking at least. Then you can hit the quick key again in between heals as you become more comfortable.
  • I also macroed both Penance and Diatribe as quick key "1". I cast this before every pull although if Diatribe doesn't finish casting cause I have to run to keep up with the tank - who cares. As you get more experience with the particular group you are running with and the zone you might skip Diatribe more often because you know you won't need it.
    • Penance should be one of the first spells you get a master of (either research or purchase).
  • Speaking of running to keep up with tanks. 
    • Make sure you keep a stack of totem of the sabertooth (run speed) on hand. Uber tanks are going to be on a fast pull cycle and it gives you a better chance to keep up with them.
    • Also, pre-cast Penance and/or Diatribe at the end of a fight. When the the current mob is about dead start casting those so when the tank runs off to pull the next group you can just run after them without leaving them unprotected.
  • Yes Primary group heal is the first line of defense for any non-tank healing (after reactive of course).
  • I wouldn't bother with the emergency reactive unless there is a room pull gone awry or a named fight that's turning ugly.
  • Reiterating what has been said above - gear, gear, gear, get you casting speed up - adornments are your friend, shield ally is really does make a big difference in heroic content.
  • Don't be afraid to ask in group or voice chat if there is anything special to worry about as a healer for a fight you haven't healed before. For example, the last named in Ascent isn't that hard BUT you will be much happier if you thrown in divine guidance on the pull cause he is going to AOE everyone pretty hard, etc.
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:31 PM   #14
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luinnil wrote:

I understand what you mean about 'debuffs meaning more' when you have undergeared tanks, but I'm not kidding.  Forced Obedience literally does nothing to help a tank (or anyone) dodge heroic DoV content, and I can't imagine why you would need it solo.  It might do something if you took the AAs that make it also debuff the mob's defenses, then you could hit more.  I have an SK that I mained for quite a while, and the fact that avoidance was completely meaningless (except uncontested Block) all throuhg SF and DoV has been a pet peeve of mine.

I did a quick solo mob check of debuffs.  Maybe in a bit I'll get a Illy to duo with me and feed me power while I take a 20min beating 4 different times by a characteristic Heroic mob.

My stats: (I'll put them all although I'm quite aware that only Mitigation and Avoidance matter for my example) 

Ele:38404, Nox:30304, Arc:32107, Mit: 7644, Avoid (2H):3185

Mob Type: Forgotten Thrall (SH) lvl 87

Pull 1: No debuffs, just take a beating for ~3 minutes.  Mob Crush = 197.94 DPS

Pull 2: Deny at -156.8 INT/STR up always for ~3 minutes.  Mob Crush = 184.74 DPS @ 78.26 To Hit

Pull 3: Forced Obedience at -39.5 weapon skills always up for ~3 minutes. Mob Crush = 175.01 @ 67.33 To Hit

Pull 4: Both Deny and Forced Obedience always up for ~ 3 minutes.  Mob Crush = 171.48 @ 71.03 to Hit

This matches what I've seen for Deny which is ~6.5-7.5 (I"ll just call it -7% DPS) across the game.  It's real easy to see when mentoring.  Mob hits you for -8.  Deny.... Mob hits you for -7.  Given the -168.8 Red DOV adorn values it looks like Deny + those (not used in this experiment) is possibly a -15% crushing DPS for mobs for current DOV heroic content.   

As with all things that need enough data points to have a stable curve Forced Obedience really does need hundreds of data points instead of the ~70 swings for these pulls.  That it lowers the THACO is clear from 3 minutes but it's hard to lock in -X% of autoattack DPS.  Looks like an effective range of -6% to -10% which varies by fight length.  Much like weapon delay affects the number of data points by which an effective comparison may be made for encounters of various length.  I'll call that -8% until I have a 20 min beating to give me data.

I was surprised that the stacked effectiveness hit what seems to be a 'floor' as the mobs DPS didn't drop in an additive fashion.  Maybe each mob has a range of effective DPS (imagine all the combination of classes that could beat on that mob) that has a DPS floor which is 'built in' as lower than that it is trivialized.

Speculation could end quickly if the Trade secrets of Debuffs weren't so closely guarded and were more clearly communicated to the players.

Honestly, the total numerical tuning of debuffs and their real tangible values I have taken on 'faith' that they're right.  I mean who tuned how much -def forced obedience gets in the Inq tree for example.  There must have been a tangible reason the values are what they happen to be.  There is so much 'hope it's right' and 'feel it's right' on those fronts than say HPS and DPS direct effects.

In the end I agree that avoidance mechanics are part of the 3rd rail of EQ2 mechanics adjustment that no sane developer wants to touch with a 10 ft pole.  Collision, art, flight, etc. mechanics would be a much wiser and easier way to survive behind the curtain.  That's what I'd be doing.

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Old 10-26-2011, 06:42 PM   #15
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S_M_I_T_E wrote:

luinnil wrote:

I understand what you mean about 'debuffs meaning more' when you have undergeared tanks, but I'm not kidding.  Forced Obedience literally does nothing to help a tank (or anyone) dodge heroic DoV content, and I can't imagine why you would need it solo.  It might do something if you took the AAs that make it also debuff the mob's defenses, then you could hit more.  I have an SK that I mained for quite a while, and the fact that avoidance was completely meaningless (except uncontested Block) all throuhg SF and DoV has been a pet peeve of mine.

I did a quick solo mob check of debuffs.  Maybe in a bit I'll get a Illy to duo with me and feed me power while I take a 20min beating 4 different times by a characteristic Heroic mob.

My stats: (I'll put them all although I'm quite aware that only Mitigation and Avoidance matter for my example) 

Ele:38404, Nox:30304, Arc:32107, Mit: 7644, Avoid (2H):3185

Mob Type: Forgotten Thrall (SH) lvl 87

Pull 1: No debuffs, just take a beating for ~3 minutes.  Mob Crush = 197.94 DPS

Pull 2: Deny at -156.8 INT/STR up always for ~3 minutes.  Mob Crush = 184.74 DPS @ 78.26 To Hit

Pull 3: Forced Obedience at -39.5 weapon skills always up for ~3 minutes. Mob Crush = 175.01 @ 67.33 To Hit

Pull 4: Both Deny and Forced Obedience always up for ~ 3 minutes.  Mob Crush = 171.48 @ 71.03 to Hit

This matches what I've seen for Deny which is ~6.5-7.5 (I"ll just call it -7% DPS) across the game.  It's real easy to see when mentoring.  Mob hits you for -8.  Deny.... Mob hits you for -7.  Given the -168.8 Red DOV adorn values it looks like Deny + those (not used in this experiment) is possibly a -15% crushing DPS for mobs for current DOV heroic content.   

As with all things that need enough data points to have a stable curve Forced Obedience really does need hundreds of data points instead of the ~70 swings for these pulls.  That it lowers the THACO is clear from 3 minutes but it's hard to lock in -X% of autoattack DPS.  Looks like an effective range of -6% to -10% which varies by fight length.  Much like weapon delay affects the number of data points by which an effective comparison may be made for encounters of various length.  I'll call that -8% until I have a 20 min beating to give me data.

I was surprised that the stacked effectiveness hit what seems to be a 'floor' as the mobs DPS didn't drop in an additive fashion.  Maybe each mob has a range of effective DPS (imagine all the combination of classes that could beat on that mob) that has a DPS floor which is 'built in' as lower than that it is trivialized.

Speculation could end quickly if the Trade secrets of Debuffs weren't so closely guarded and were more clearly communicated to the players.

Honestly, the total numerical tuning of debuffs and their real tangible values I have taken on 'faith' that they're right.  I mean who tuned how much -def forced obedience gets in the Inq tree for example.  There must have been a tangible reason the values are what they happen to be.  There is so much 'hope it's right' and 'feel it's right' on those fronts than say HPS and DPS direct effects.

In the end I agree that avoidance mechanics are part of the 3rd rail of EQ2 mechanics adjustment that no sane developer wants to touch with a 10 ft pole.  Collision, art, flight, etc. mechanics would be a much wiser and easier way to survive behind the curtain.  That's what I'd be doing.

These are good data points but we really need stuff from Heroic (like at least a Pools or higher boss) to verify the usefulness of debuffs.  Solo content is so far away from heroic content they are, quite simply, incomparable.

I can personally solo a few of the DoV zones (like Ascent or Shadowed Corridors) but I don't really have time for that these days just to data-gather.  I can tell you that if somebody were to debuff my WIS by 120 (what my spec has Deny reducing about for INT/STR) it would change my damage modifier by roughly 1.5%.  This is 3000 -> 2880.  I assume Heroic mobs have at least 3000 in their primary stats and raid mobs are in the 5000+, but since Coercer Possess has not let us see these things in a long time it's completely arbitrary guessing.

I am terrible at making multiple quotes but I'm going to disagree with Umub on one point.  I am going to state this in the strongest possible terms:  

--If you are not interested in doing DPS while you heal, switch to Templar--

Inquisitor abilties like Battle Dressing and Fanatical Devotion require us to be up in the thick of things beating on it.  If you are not beating on it, you are making your group worse.  If the best you can do to start off with is auto-attack and the rare CA, this is okay, BUT YOU SHOULD ALWAYS BE ATTACKING.  If you don't learn to play while mixing attacking and healing, even if you are heal primary, you will not get into a good groove and you will learn bad habits that are hard to unlearn.

EDIT:  I forgot, additionally Shield Ally requires you to stick to your tank pretty much like a burr so you're going to need to be in auto-attack range to do that.  There's only 1 fight I am not right up next to the tank and that's the Three Generals because the Backlash uncurable debuff can ruin my power too fast until that particular general is dead if I have auto-attack on.

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Old 10-26-2011, 07:49 PM   #16
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luinnil -

I am not saying don't be interested in DPS. I am saying is that there is a big learning curve in healing heroic content and what you should be learning first is healing not DPS. About 6 months ago I went through this very experience. I had a fury and an inquisitor that I soloed and 2-boxed with. When I made the transition to healing heroic instances it was quite overwhelming at first. I was extremely happy when I solo healed a zone without any deaths. And in those early days neither I nor the people I played with ever looked at the DPS I was putting out. Which in my opinion is how it should be.

I am a healer first and DPS second. So I simply suggest learning to heal first, then learn how to heal and DPS.

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Old 10-26-2011, 09:25 PM   #17
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Umub wrote:

luinnil -

I am not saying don't be interested in DPS. I am saying is that there is a big learning curve in healing heroic content and what you should be learning first is healing not DPS. About 6 months ago I went through this very experience. I had a fury and an inquisitor that I soloed and 2-boxed with. When I made the transition to healing heroic instances it was quite overwhelming at first. I was extremely happy when I solo healed a zone without any deaths. And in those early days neither I nor the people I played with ever looked at the DPS I was putting out. Which in my opinion is how it should be.

I am a healer first and DPS second. So I simply suggest learning to heal first, then learn how to heal and DPS.

This is fine, I mostly just want to get it across that it's still important to remember that DPS buttons are your and the group's friends even if your damage output is not integral to success.  The group shouldn't be judging you by your DPS while you're learning but it's important to hit!

Also if I sound cranky it's a long week at work and not intentional, so I'm sorry for any ornery-ness sounding.

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