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Old 10-27-2014, 09:45 AM   #31
Nezette

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I guess I'm thinking back to when Zland was relevant and you'd have 2 mage groups since scouts would get wrecked by adds unless paired with a chanchan... Or early Irudul pulls when scouts were irrelevant on ice blocks... so basically raid make-up on stuff outside of those pulls was basically, "oh hi, who wants to play?" Scouts look at G3, the "throw-together-group" as we lovingly refer to it (G4 is the money group), and graciously bow out for their non-money-group mage friends. You know how it is.

I just want to repeat/highlight a few of your points for emphasis:
  • POTENCY meaning more to scouts It really needs to. I used to notice a difference when I had EV... now I'm thinking I just noticed the extra dps mod.
  • Gear stat revamp what you and Ishmel suggested is on point. It's ludicrous that we have to decide between option A: "These are the stats you need to do what you do... but... you might die, have fun!" And Option B: "Here's half of what you need." I only recently swapped to Option B full-time, maybe 2 weeks ago? It was actually kind of a big deal... Kaaria and Falk were like, "Nez, are you feeling well, friend? You have more than 400k hp..." I hadn't noticed I was one one of last holding on...!
  • "I'm also not terribly gimped DPS wise even compared to mages, just sick of so much of it being auto attack." Cannot emphasize this enough. I said it in my initial post, and if it needs to be said 100x, THIS is the problem.
I feel like the fact that we, Revelations-scouts and Fatality-scouts, are coming together in unity and harmony over this is fairly indicative of this being something that really ought to be addressed. We may not see eye to eye on HP debuffs, but this will come in time...
Personally, I have a soft spot for HP debuffs because of #brigandgate. That was pretty lols... in a completely wrong and non-lolsy way, DevFriends... I am ashamed I had any part of it, I swear.
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Old 10-27-2014, 06:03 PM   #32
Mogrim

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This is a waste of my time to address it, actually.
My summary = Scouts and mages play differently. I agree your autos should do less and your CA's should do more so that there is more incentive to be good.

Swashies and Beastlords could use some power boosts as well.

But otherwise, the power of scouts is just fine.
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Old 10-27-2014, 06:52 PM   #33
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There aren't balance problems.
There are perceived balance problems. We'll call that "ignorance".
There are illustrated perceived balanced problems. We'll call that "illustrated ignorance".
And then, you've got "quality of life issues". We'll call that "legitimate frustration".

But balance? BALANCE?

Scouts are ***NOT*** underpowered.
They do not need more power, but there are definitely things that could be done to make them have more fun.

Straight up, bards already contribute more to their groups than enchanters. If the bard presses buttons, they can parse right up there with their mage counterpart. So really, in Mages vs Scouts, Round 1 goes to scouts.

A Brigand brings as much to the raid overall as a summoner because of the consistent debuffs and max health debuffs which results in both increased raidwide damage and shorter fights. However, Swashbucklers are pretty weaksauce with their debuffs, and as a result are considered one of the "bad" classes atm. Summoners are t1.5 other than when they shine on long single-target burns. Brigands are t2 but with a lot more raid utility (as long as the brigand presses buttons) which includes some solid max health debuffs. However, since Swash buffs and debuffs are either nearly worthless or don't stack with Brigands I'd say Round 2 is a narrow win for mages. Fix Swash and this is a win for scouts as well.

Now for the T1s. First of all, there are 5 pure T1 classes, but Beastlords are being left out of this because they're still somewhat broken. So here goes. If you have a raid with 1 ranger, 1 assassin, 1 warlock, and 1 wizard, if the max health debuffs are being used, the Ranger and Assassin contribute significantly more to the death of the named than the warlock and wizard.

Very very very basic math. On a solid raid fight, a Warlock/Wizard will often do approx 12-14% of the total damage. often on these same fights, a decent Predator is doing 9-10%. But wait, thats not all! Add in 5-8% max health debuffs, and the predator is contributing approximately 14-18% towards the mob's death. Take it for what it is, but in a raid with 1 ranger, 1 assassin, 1 warlock, and 1 wizard, it actually isn't close in terms of power. So lets be realistic, who contributes more to the mob's death? An excellent Sorcerer will still contribute less to the death of a mob than an average Predator, provided the Predator presses buttons.

So I think I've got this figured out.

Some scouts claim their archetype isn't fun to play. That is understandable. It is a legitimate frustration.
Some scouts claim their archetype is underpowered. But cause math, that claim is based on ignorance. Unless they're a Swashbuckler or a Beastlord, this claim of being underpowered can be remedied by pressing buttons.

Or maybe vast conclusions are being drawn from 1 minute fights where a sorcerer's temp period makes up half the fight. Perhaps this explains the illustrated ignorance. Scouts drawing pictures and claiming that they are parsing less than healers? If you're a scout parsing less than your healers, you can fix this by pressing buttons.

TLDR
1) Scouts aren't underpowered. That is just ignorance of game mechanics. If anything, scouts are overpowered. All you need to do is leave your monitor on, target the right things, and press buttons, and you generally contribute more to the raid than your mage counterpart. It almost seems that your beef is with ACT for not measuring "overall contribution" and only measuring "raw damage". Maybe send them some crayon drawn pictures stained by your tears.
2) Scouts do have quality of life issues. But don't mistake quality of life issues w/ power issues. Scouts are extremely strong. You might not feel like they are, but math. Oh yeah. And press buttons.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:02 PM   #34
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Fixed.

HP Debuffs really aren't fun, and shouldn't be classed as Balance.
I know people say that ACT doesn't matter, but which DPS class plays without ever looking at ACT? It's just part of the game now as a DPS class.

What really could make the game far more fun for scouts:
  • Make CA's matter.
  • Remove HP Debuffs
  • Fix the Balance of Auto Attack:Abilities to at least 30:70
  • And although I don't like the idea as I think it takes away part of the class, make auto attacks uninterruptible by abilities (Similar to mage/priests). Yes it would simplify the whole idea, but watching an auto attack bar or listening to a beep every 3s is hardly fun for anybody.
  • No more brawler mobs, ever.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:15 PM   #35
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Fixed.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:46 PM   #36
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They don't have to put any effort into that. All they'll do is make every mob a brawler and all the scouts will quit the game.


Why brawler mobs continue to be used every expansion is beyond me. If there was an equivalent mega high resist mobs used to frustrate mages I'd understand. But there never is. Just the random brawler mobs tossed in to make scouts want to break keyboards.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:18 PM   #37
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Raw DPS is just one measurement tool. But pretending it conveys the whole picture is poor reasoning.
Anyone who understands game mechanics knows we don't REALLY compare different archetypes by this tool. Many things aren't measured by ACT, specifically filling your archetype's role.

We intrinsically know that a healer who can do 9mil dps and lets their group die is not as good as a healer who does 6mil dps and never loses a group member. Is this measured by ACT? Not really. ACT alone would tell you the 9mil dps healer is better. Additionally, we know that a tank who does 5mil dps but dies a lot/loses aggro when they shouldn't is not as good as a tank who does 3mil dps but never dies and never loses aggro. Same story when it comes to ACT.

Firstly, itemization growth is all about which stats grow and which stats don't. A Pred/Rogue/Bard benefits more proportionately from a practiced weapon damage bonus ear than a Mage benefits from ANY practiced item. Mages benefit a lot more from potency than scouts do, but once a few weapon damage bonus ears are in group, scouts begin to gain more than mages do from crit bonus.

Secondly, I am not sure why we compare Scouts and Mages solely based on raw damage numbers to determine their power when they have clear role differences. If you purposely omit data that refers to your archetype's strength, you can create the illusion that they're weak. But just pretending you don't contribute massively with max health debuffs doesn't make it so. You can't just pretend you're not contributing that to the fight.

There are two very different voices about scouts right now. There is the "hey, a lot of this is really frustrating and doesn't lead to fun game play" voice. THAT voice I agree with. I see the frustrations and I agree. Then, there is the "eff Sorcerers, Buff Scouts" voice. That and other similar toxic approaches to balance has no basis in math or mechanics.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:25 PM   #38
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The irony of you blanketly crying "ignorance" and suggesting we want a net gain of dps (when no one has hinted at this in this thread) followed by reaffirming everything I (and others) have said is not lost on me. But it's okay. I realized getting you to hear/read what's actually being said was a lost cause on Thursday. I get it, your concern is where that purple bar shows up... My/our concern is that pie chart not looking like pac-man, but rather like a pie divied up more proportionally.

Imagine this: we all hop on beta-- have a GM/Dev copy my char to your account and your char to mine. Give ZERO time to read what the respective abilities do and go ham in the fly. You whack away at buttons, I'll whack away at buttons. The result will be this: me, not knowing an effective casting order will be super apparent. You not knowing a proper CA order won't be apparent since 75% of the dps will still be from auto. You'll of course say, "Nezettefriend, I just understand game mechanics!" I expect this already, but I think it's fairly safe to say it doesn't take a genius to auto attack...

I am, and I think I can speak for others since RevRangerFriend agreed- pointing out a beast parse only to say "lol auto attack," simply requesting an equal opportunity in presenting skill. Lowering our auto multiplier, or lowering the appearance of wdb on gear or a combination of the two... Increase or ability damage and get a balance while maintaining our current dps potential. If we're mathy, sure, we might do more dps (no one is saying a pred should outparse a sorc, though wouldn't it be fun if the potential were there more consistently? Everyone gets stronger with competition), if we suck, it'll be obvious, too. You can disagree with that, if you want to, I won't call you names on that one. (Though, I'll gladly call you a moron when you make outlandish claims that scouts should push buttons better if they want to parse higher... Freaking DUH, that's the point!)

Some folks find it admirable that I, and others, are willing to open ourselves up to scrutiny of skill. In the current state, this really isn't the case.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:30 PM   #39
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Reread what has been said at least twice by me: I am fine with my dps. I am not okay with HOW I dps.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:33 PM   #40
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I am fine with how I buff the group/raid. (Defensive debuffs/Swashes need to be re-examined). MY UTILITY IS FINE, DON'T BOOST IT. Let my CAs matter!
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:34 PM   #41
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If you can't comprehend this simple request, then I suggest we agree to disagree and we can go about our merry way of assuming the other is oblivious.
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:05 PM   #42
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Re: A similar manner? Warlock help to be equal to Wizards was fixing out primary dps temp so it wasn't terrible, which in turn resulted in a significant boost.

I'm posting this for evidence - balance is NOT reflected on the parse. "How fun my class is to play" is perhaps reflected on the parse, but balance isn't.

And this, again.

Nezette, you're saying two things at the same time.
When you say something along the lines of "I want our abilities to do more, our auto attack to do less, and our overall parse to be somewhat unchanged" OR "this current means of itemization removes my motivation to play well because even if I don't, I'll still dps nearly the same" - When you say either of those things, I pretty much agree.

However, when the conversation turns into "You buffed Warlocks, buff us the same way!" or "Look at where we are on the parse, this isn't fun, make us PARSE MOAR" or "Nerf Mages, Buff Scouts" - When you say these things, you're out in left field, and simply inaccurate. And it isn't that you're not saying it. The undertones are there, and I've quoted just a few examples from this very thread to prove it.
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:11 PM   #43
Nezette

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Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mogrim, post: 6120782, member: 363
Maybe send them some crayon drawn pictures stained by your tears.
Also, do you think it'll help? I got the idea of getting "arty" from the glorious art of crying from the FOTMs in those forums. So, you might be on to something there! /end rant

ETA: ignore my crappy quote job...
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:14 PM   #44
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So I guess to conclude - I support making scouts "more fun". And it is very possible that "more fun" will FEEL "more powerful", but in reality, scouts don't need more power, they just need less frustrating elements of the game. (like riposting 1-shots, afk auto attack cause ca's don't matter - which btw tanks struggle with too - etc)

Perhaps our disagreement is a distinction without a real difference. But there are emotional undertones and statements getting thrown around as part of this post that I felt needed to be countered with fact.
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:35 PM   #45
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Stop pretending that practiced doesn't benefit a mage more than a scout, because you know damn well that's false.

Our class defines what we do and what we bring to the table. You chose Warlock because you like the class and you like what it's capable of doing, if you wanted to be a healer, tank or support class, you would have chosen to play that and be content with it. Choosing to be a Predator, Rogue or Bard should clearly define what we should be doing numerically.

One does not choose to be a Predator to be a max health debuff support class that will contribute less in gross numbers than what a Sorcerer would do. Same goes for any other scout.

We also chose to be scouts because we know how to play the positioning and movement game and can perform well in raids doing so, but when having to constantly move around and re-position and then noticing that no matter how much we try our CAs will never do enough to even bother, then it also becomes a problem.

Raw damage numbers is why we play the classes we play and why you enjoy playing your class. If those numbers are skewed towards a specific class or archetype then it becomes annoying and intolerable to the other classes that also play this game because you remove the fun in competition aspect of this game.
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:40 PM   #46
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We're arguing for scouts to be fun to play while Warlocks, one of the two highest parsing classes in game (the other being wizards) are asking for dps buffs. Okay. I don't see scouts ******** up your thread with how there's so much else in the game that should be changed before sorcerer ****, in fact I've stayed away from it.

If we're really going to assume here that scouts are asking for more power, I say: Why not? Let's say, in a perfect world, a perfectly played(/auto attacked) assassin parses 1 dps less than a warlock. Will you ever bring 2 assassins over 1 assassin 1 warlock? No. Because hp debuffs don't stack. In the current game, where assassins parse far less than sorcerers, will you ever bring 2 warlocks over 1 each? Yes. HP debuffs don't mean a ******* thing on add sets that have to be killed within a time limit before the raid wipes (a la all of PoW). Even single adds die faster with sorcerers than predators. Take Telk's add for example. How much faster do you and Falkboom kill it than myself or Kaaria? An assassin makes the fight time shorter, but dropping that second sorcerer's dps could possibly make the fight unkillable period.

If we're talking about giving scouts more power, then what needs to be fixed is scout auto attack needs to be nerfed to the same level as the wand auto attack that was added to mages and our CA damage needs to be boosted to match the base level of mage spells. New poisons will act as our Fiery Blast/FC mechanic, and flurry should be converted into CA-based doublecast (or just allow CAs to benefit from doublecast). Nerfing the auto attack would be as easy as just boosting the abilities anyway, because then people would gear for potency rather than weapon damage bonus.
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:41 PM   #47
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Was going to stay out of this discussion, but personally I think the issues can be attributed, in a large part, to the itemisation model.

(1) Potency vs WDB distribution/division.
So we have a model that forces people/scouts to choose between potency to their abilities, or wdb (in effect serving the same 'potency' aspect but just to autoattack) - or a third, typically non-raid viable option of Dreadlord-syle gear that comes in at lower values to everything with a large sacrifice to survivability. Scouts, with a more 'even' divide between autoattack and ability-based are ultimately suffering much larger sacrifices regardless of which option they take. DPS mages take the potency set just because autoattack currently makes up less than 10% of their parse, so is the logical choice. The solution would be obvious - provide WDB and potency together on the same distribution at the appropriate values (and for all armor types). Yes, mages would get a slight bump to the sub-10% of their parse that is made up through their autoattack, but scouts would see a very sizeable gain in not having to choose which 'half' of their parse they have to bump up.
Also, as a side-note, (group) proc damage is calculated against the sources' primary stat/potency values and the destination crit multiplier. With most scouts opting for WDB options, I am sure this aspect gets rather neglected in the melee groups.

(2) Options for CA growth.
From the start of this last expansion, through to the end of it, mages have seen a rather sizable growth to their ability-based damage through the growth to doublecast. At the end of CoE, I think I was running around 20-25% SDA - and now, at the end of ToV, that is 100% passive SDA in a raid buffed scenario (in other words, capped out this aspect). Combat Arts haven't had this growth option, and as such have remained (relatively) rather stagnant across the same time-frame. The solution, pending any balance issues (I did not run any numbers), would ultimately be to turn 'SDA' into some form of 'Ability Double Attack' that also affects CAs. If something like this did happen, then cloak/belt distributions might need a rethink along the lines of number (1) above (and for the same reasons), i.e. providing both flurry/double on the same distibution (and perhaps at lesser values for everyone because they are capped attributes).

(3) Mitigation and Vulnerability debuffs
I haven't done a relative count, but I sometimes wonder if all is equal between physical mitigation/vulnerability debuff availability and their magical counterparts. It would also be rather raid-build dependent, but I suspect this isn't the case. There's probably a reason I see many scouts opting for magical-damage based (heroic) weapons over raid-based physical.

(4) Proc conditions
Probably a rather minor point, but with how powerful item effects have become, I am curious if melee types see an equal return on normalized procs (i.e. chance on any combat or spell hit). Personally, I can sit there chaining spells without delaying my autoattack, and typically get close to maximizing the returns. Not all scouts have the same ability to chain CAs and then typically have to delay their CA rotation (or autoattack). Though perhaps, one could argue, this is somewhat counterbalanced by non-normalized procs.

(5) Practiced-style/utility itemisation
I have concerns over the overall balance of these, but that is probably a story for another time. However, these do make it tricky to gauge balance (from my own/guild's perspective), because we do have a disparity in how these have been distributed across our raids. Atm, our primary mage group has picked up more of these than any other group, and the Practiced Swings ears have been somewhat rarer drops for us (out of wing3). And even so, mage groups, without a fighter, will typically have an opportunity to run more of these procs. Regardless though, these, even in an equal distribution across the raid, will probably just serve to exagerate any differences.

(6) Poisons
Poisons have needed a scaling fix for a long time, but I am left wondering if the current values are just a passive 'bandaid' style fix to the aforementioned problems. Yes, they need to scale against character growth (as do many other things that don't scale, but I digress). However, it looks to me that these are being turned into another sizable passive 'autoattack' style gain.

(7) Not itemisation, but encounter design.
Certain encounter scripts are just inherently more mage friendly - or I suppose I should say, more scout unfriendly. But that can be controlled from an encounter design aspect, and should be something that is thought about. Sure having a couple of encounters that disadvantage mages less, and a couple of encounters that disadvantage scouts less is fine, but encounter mechanics should be such that there is an overall balance.

(8) HP Debuffs
Oh, almost forgot about these, which is odd because there's a continuous running commentary over them. You have people continuously arguing over whether these should be factored into class balance - my take on it is, because they exist, then yes they should be factored into class balance. However, this begs the question as to whether they should exist in the first place. The answer to that is probably a 'no' - and simply because, as a general statement, it seems that people don't like their class to be balanced around something that can't be overtly parsed, lol.


Anywho, that is what comes to mind atm. I'm sure there's more that I've overlooked though.


Edit: Lol, seems Buffrat got a post in a few seconds before this, which touched on some of these aspects.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:03 AM   #48
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Since the mages have decided to chip in and make this a mage vs scout thing. I still find it annoying that even if mages get a resist they can try the same spell again while when a scout has a CA blocked, avoided or miss they get stuck with the full recast duration. Having seen assassinate do this on a Telk add and the scout add on Vulak'Aerr it's really annoying.

Semi off topic post but one of those little things that are more annoying then anything else.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:08 AM   #49
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Scouts wear magical weapons because they're just better. Why spend 48 ear slots wearing 1 magical and 1 physical ear when all scouts (except rangers lolo~) can just turn their damage to magical and get a 30% damage boost from the same ear mages want? 24 magical ears and 0 physical ears makes a ranger's melee auto even better than ranged auto + makeshift arrows + archer's fury combined, making them a melee class. Except for the part where people don't wear magical ears because there isn't really much of a good playerbase left.

Not only are HP debuffs not parsable (and not fun, at least in the assassin's case of having to press those 4 abilities every 10 seconds, and Death Mark not even really working), they also make it harder to balance named/add hp because we debuff these values. And on top of that, many times in the history of this game mobs have been broken/made trivial by STA/HP debuffs, and will probably continue to happen until they're removed as someone forgets to tag a new debuff as non-stacking.



Re: Crychtonn:

I miss the days when the resist v avoidance mechanic was one of the biggest issues. Now it's trivial because mage spells don't get resisted and scout CAs only get avoided when a zone designer decides to tag a mob "Brawler". Now if you assassinate a mob from it's frontal cone you'll just get riposted and die unless you happened to press evade in the last 3 seconds, so there's that.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:29 AM   #50
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:41 AM   #51
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Mogrim:
You have no lines in this play. Please leave this thread and stop acting like you are trying to preserve balance when really it is you reading those "MOAR DPS" cries into this thread. No one had asked for more DPS. Stay in the mages forums unless you actually have something constructive to say.

That aside, I don't think this is simply an itemization issue as some have suggested. Maybe for Preds, but I don't play those classes so I can't say. But I can tell you that for a dirge, if itemization was fixed to be balanced so that more of my DPS came from CAs and such, I would still be better off choosing the auto-attack gear. Why? Because my CAs do so little, and as potency scales higher and higher, I can't utilize potency to the same effect as auto-attack because diminishing returns. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and someone will come prove it with maths, but in my testing that has been completely confirmed.

Also, I'm tired of some scrub bard who can auto-attack doing better than me on VCs because his gear is way better than mine when all he knows how to do is push like three buttons. There is no fun playing scouts when one can no longer use their knowledge of the class to do way better than another scout. Instead you do like 10-15% better assuming gear is equal. And that feels bad.
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Old 10-28-2014, 01:08 AM   #52
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10-15 is an exaggeration unless that other scout is really bad.
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Old 10-28-2014, 01:34 AM   #53
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Eh, for dirge not really. Our CAs do next to nothing. I mean if you can not miss an auto-attack, you are pretty golden. For other scouts, I can't really say as i don't play them. My comment was meant specific to the dirge.
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Old 10-28-2014, 01:46 AM   #54
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Pretty much on the spot with everything that affects scouts.
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:19 AM   #55
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There are, though. However they can be somewhat easily remedied.
Fights that add mobs that mages specifically need to kill often result in those mobs being hit a lot while not debuffed nearly as much as the named which greatly reduces mage damage on them for a short period of time. However, this is countered by the fact that the longer any such add stays up, the more debuffs will land on it, and the shorter it is up, the less of an impact it has on the parse.

I think this could be rectified by nerfing avoidance on brawler mobs, or adding aspects of debuffs that handle it adequately. Should an non-debuffed brawler mob avoid a lot of attacks? Yes. Should this be able to be coutnered by debuffs? Also yes. Debuffing should be the answer to this.
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:49 AM   #56
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Scouts are clearly underpowered and if you don't see it you're biased and/or not seeing the bigger picture.

When you look at a parse from a mage and a scout, what do you see? The majority of a parse from a mage comes from their abilities (which are many). On the other hand, the majority of the scout's dps comes from their Auto Attack.

The moment you can identify that problem lies in how the classes are affected by the stats and how powerful their abilities are by said stats. .

Mage abilities are gaining more and more power as time goes by, causing their whole parse to get bloated beyond proportion while Scouts damage will not get the same effect from increase in power via gear upgrades because only one part of their parse will increase while the others (CAs) will not be affected as much.

On top of that, we have so many more issues to deal with that block the amount of damage a scout can do. Things like: Brawler mobs, Buffs that reduce physical damage, jousts, ripostes. I don't mind variety of scripts or difference between bosses, but when it becomes one-sided that there are a vast majority of encounters that impede Scouts over Mages, then that's another issue.

It's unbalanced and clearly unfair when time and time again we see an encounter that a scout won't be able to do good in because how an encounter is designed and mages just get to stand there and shoot fireballs and not worry about scripts or encounter design as much as scouts have in the past expansion and what looks to be the same direction we're taking for this new expansion.
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Old 10-28-2014, 01:30 PM   #57
Mankar

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Nevermind, it appears I completely misread what you meant, buff. Damn edit button doesn't work after a few hours.
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Old 10-28-2014, 05:22 PM   #58
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I noticed it too, and this is almost valid for my warden too ... (it's not really annoying since dps is just something extra that we may do or not .... it's not like if my auto-attack was procing 80% of my healing) if i spec for 700dps mod, haste, MA and 100% + WDB
i can do fine (especially on MT with 100% ZE AA). I probably already posted about it, and even send some PM to some devs.

I was discussing that with a veteran ranger (10 year old) and he also told me that his class was not really anymore interesting to play. It used to be about positionnal and big CA but now it's mostly about auto attack and proc.

Indeed scout dps mostly depend on good gear choice.

Auto Attack is just too important, and this hold for almost any class but mages. It comes from a degree four polynomial
(MA, DPS MOD, Haste, WDB) to which we could even add the impact of flurry and of CB.
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Old 10-28-2014, 05:42 PM   #59
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I wear the magic ear. Can I join?
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Old 10-28-2014, 06:19 PM   #60
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I'm.just.going.to.say.this.one.last.time.

Scouts are overpowered as it is.

They've got a high floor parse cause auto attack. They aren't penalized much for cast priority mistakes cause bad combat arts. Some people don't find that fun. Some people want to change those things. Cool! I'm for it. Works for me. As long as you see a net decrease in archetype power as it currently plays out so that you're more balanced in terms of overall power with mages.

Scouts DO have quality of life issues. There is a lot that can frustrate them with the game. That is the price they pay for being overpowered gods. They've got joust mechanics, occasional brawler mobs, and more joust mechanics. Ok, I get it. Quality of life sucks. I'd like for every class to be more fun to play. Sure.

But again...
Scouts are overpowered as it is. And what they're asking for includes boosts to your end of the balance of power. You can't help but spew out ******** perpetuated by the jealous few with his whole "eff sorcerers" campaign. But it is ignorant. And some of you are mindlessly following along. Beyond that, Nezet's drunken rants have included rambling demands to "eff over mages a little" before this post. So when she tries to disguise what she is doing with silly illustrations, know that it is a farce. These quality of life things she demands are the only things stopping scouts from becoming an alpha god archetype with the best utility AND the best raw damage.

With the exception of Swashbucklers and Beastlords, scouts don't need help. They don't. If you improve their quality of life then they become both as "easy to play as mages" as well as continuing to be much stronger than mages. Is that what you want? A class that is pure alpha over the mage? Cause I've been there when for a long time warlocks absolutely nothing over wizards. At that time, Warlocks were outdone by them both in terms of utility (Frigid Gift > Curse of Darkness) AND raw damage. It wasn't fun. But right now Scouts and Mages exist in an amazing balance that requires a solid and diverse amount of them both in a raid to have that raid be optimal. Right now there is a beautiful tension between Mage dps and Scout dps+utility. T1 Mages give more raw numbers, T1 Scouts give more real numbers. A raid won't want to stack multiples of the same type of T1 scout, but can't be optimal without making sure they've got 1 of each. A raid doesn't need any particular T1 mage, but will bring a bunch. It is actually a VERY GOOD tension of varied usefulness and encourages diversity of classes included in the build.

You may hold up the arbitrary ruler of ACT and claim that only raw damage matters. But if that were true, raids wouldn't bring any predators at all, except maybe to be loot mops! And you know what? If only raw damage matters... bards are already fine as it is. Despite all of these barriers, bards are providing more utility AND more raw damage than chanters. Despite all these barriers, a brigand or two brings JUST as much to the raid as a summoner. And despite all these barriers, a predator absolutely dumps on a sorcerer in overall net contribution to killing most names.

You may feel underpowered, but the reality still remains that when we kill a named, the raw damage + utility effect of predators = a much greater impact on killing the mob than any other class in the game. A brigand or two bring as much to the raid as summoners. Bards bring significantly more than chanters.

At the end of the day, only Swashies and Beastlords need love. A Beastlord's raw damage + utility doesn't even scratch the surface of what a T1 should be, and a Swashie is even worse, with the exception of an amazing blue aoe fight.

If predators did a pure shift of their power and were able to get a boost in dps equal to what they're doing in max health debuffs, while removing their max health debuffs, well played Assassins and Rangers would be regularly doing 20mil parses on the Dreadscale Maw names that Mages do 13-14mil on. Then you'd have T1 Preds and T1 Mages, both offering little in terms of utility, almost purely giving raw damage, and Preds doing massively higher.

Nothing in this game, and I mean NOTHING compares to the raw damage+utility contribution that predators give. You can whine that your bazooka doesn't have much kick so you don't feel it in your shoulder, but it is still giving the biggest explosion on what it hits.

That said I don't want to see quality of life DEGRADATION for scouts in the xpac. I'm not for riposte-rapage at all. But as stands, scouts are contributing way more than mages even despite a lot of quality of life issues that directly impact their parse. Fix that quality of life and the dam breaks. Their damage ends up going up, fairly significantly. Increase it even more to offset simultaneously removing max health debuffs, and you'll have given scouts the easiest to play archetype with the highest floor and the highest ceiling damage.

Shoot ladies and gents, your archetype is way stronger than mages. Sit down.
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