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Old 12-20-2011, 07:45 PM   #1
Skeez1e

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Took my boxes through the dungeon I'm half done building - 40 mobs at this point; could have easily pulled them all at the same time without breathing hard so scaling definitely needs some looking at.  No experience nor dungeon coins in that setup.

Took 2 in using avatars -power regen seems to be slower than pre-patch. 

I see the limited spawn tokens are not available any longer - are they going to be available via a chest/body drop fashion?

On a similar topic: is there a definitive list of spawners somewhere? 

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Old 12-20-2011, 08:00 PM   #2
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What level was the dungeon when you ran your normal characters through it?  Also, what is their gear / AA situation?

The difficulty level could swing wildly between levels, AA and gear.  This is something we will need to work out before we can give rewards for play as your character.

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Old 12-20-2011, 08:17 PM   #3
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Mobs were even con throughout - I haven't added any agro/strength factors to any of the mobs yet.  Gear is probably as good as it gets on Test - Micki is 40k and change unbuffed, strength 2700, 310 aa, Skeezie about the same. 

It was serious cake. 

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Old 12-20-2011, 08:45 PM   #4
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I just tried running Skee's dungeon, as myself, all mobs even but no experience as they grey out if playing yourself!

Definitely regen is way slower on power and I run out faster than pre patch with the standard avatars

I have a fabled one that dropped I am using now, he is not going through as much power it seems, perhaps not all avatars are created equal!

Regen does seem slower at the end of fights.  If I was using one of the 4 initial avatars, usually pick the assassin as it can do dps and a small 9% heal, he was out of power before the 3rd mob in a group was dead.  I died alot at beginning. So went back to to a fabled avatar and will try and finish what skee has done

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Old 12-20-2011, 08:47 PM   #5
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Rothgar, could you add the EXP and TOKENS back in for ppl who use the actual avatars?  I mean thats the intended method atm anyways.

Its already hard enough to get anything done on the server, now it looks like we wont even get tokens to improve dungeons and buy spawners for a week or two while you test this??

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Old 12-20-2011, 08:52 PM   #6
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Experience and tokens are still there when you run avatars - it's when you run it as your own character its missing.

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Old 12-20-2011, 09:17 PM   #7
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Rothgar, you have got to come play skee's dungeon, I am cracking up

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Old 12-20-2011, 09:51 PM   #8
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Confirmed happening on Test_copy. The dungeon "Rawr " which was packed full of mobs. I didn't recieve any tokens at the end. BTW kudos to the builder of that one. It actually managed to kill my 90 melee warden once lol. Which is almost impossible to do. That room full of gnolls that stun and like to play ratonga football.

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Old 12-21-2011, 01:17 AM   #9
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Rothgar wrote:

What level was the dungeon when you ran your normal characters through it?  Also, what is their gear / AA situation?

The difficulty level could swing wildly between levels, AA and gear.  This is something we will need to work out before we can give rewards for play as your character.

I think the rewards, if playing yourself, should only be experience.  Dungeon marks should be a bonus for playing as intended, using a provided / dropped / purchased Avatar.

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Old 12-21-2011, 01:28 AM   #10
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Confirmed happening on Test_copy. The dungeon "Rawr " which was packed full of mobs. I didn't recieve any tokens at the end. BTW kudos to the builder of that one. It actually managed to kill my 90 melee warden once lol. Which is almost impossible to do. That room full of gnolls that stun and like to play ratonga football.

No tokens even when playing as an Avatar?  Tokens should only be disabled if you play as yourself.

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Old 12-21-2011, 02:02 AM   #11
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I didn't use an avatar. I was playing through as a copy of my 90 Warden from AB. I wasn't aware at the time that it was disabled for real characters. Which to me is disapointing. I hope when everything is fixed we can get tokens for playing our own characters or else I see no point in using them.

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Old 12-21-2011, 10:02 AM   #12
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I didn't use an avatar. I was playing through as a copy of my 90 Warden from AB. I wasn't aware at the time that it was disabled for real characters. Which to me is disapointing. I hope when everything is fixed we can get tokens for playing our own characters or else I see no point in using them.

Pretty sure it's temporary while they balance it all out.

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Old 12-21-2011, 10:29 AM   #13
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I'm of the opinion the rewards shouldn't vary in the DM when using your avatar. Seems like that would just be unnecessarily complicating things.

Set it up like it is with the avatars

I ran through a couple of dungeons on Test with a lvl 42ish melee specced warden (mastercrafted/handcrafted/older quested gear, adept/expert/master spells). The dungeons I went through seemed to scale well for her.  One in particular was a bit more tough due to the sheer numbers of mobs that came at once but it was doable.

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Old 12-21-2011, 11:13 AM   #14
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just ran though rawr(sp?) dungeon with raid geared melee warden.  There wasn't much challenge before in the dungeons i've run and playing as myself took out even the challenge of minimizing the number of mobs pulled at a time.  There is a definate scaling issue.

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Old 12-21-2011, 12:03 PM   #15
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Bobonice wrote:

just ran though rawr(sp?) dungeon with raid geared melee warden.  There wasn't much challenge before in the dungeons i've run and playing as myself took out even the challenge of minimizing the number of mobs pulled at a time.  There is a definate scaling issue.

You are in Raid gear, if SOE makes DM dungeons a challenge for Raid gear players it defeats the entire reason for them.  This is a casual player non-raider feature.  Now at some point SOE might want to look at a flag you can turn on and off for DM's if you chose too, to make them more "Heroic" for raid geared toons that say give 1.5x's the tokens, but making them challenging for a raid geared player right out the gate would be a disaster and create yet another unused game feature since the average player wont be able to beat it reasonably

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Old 12-21-2011, 12:24 PM   #16
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bobonice wrote:

just ran though rawr(sp?) dungeon with raid geared melee warden.  There wasn't much challenge before in the dungeons i've run and playing as myself took out even the challenge of minimizing the number of mobs pulled at a time.  There is a definate scaling issue.

You are in Raid gear, if SOE makes DM dungeons a challenge for Raid gear players it defeats the entire reason for them.  This is a casual player non-raider feature.  Now at some point SOE might want to look at a flag you can turn on and off for DM's if you chose too, to make them more "Heroic" for raid geared toons that say give 1.5x's the tokens, but making them challenging for a raid geared player right out the gate would be a disaster and create yet another unused game feature since the average player wont be able to beat it reasonably

This is the reason we chose to launch with Avatar's in the first place.  In order to properly scale the challenge of the zone it'll take much more than looking at character level.  We'll need to consider AA's, spell mastery level and gear quality.

Then once we have a value to measure player power, scaling the NPC's is a different hurdle.  Currently we can only dynamically adjust tier and level.  Modifying stats such as crit, potency, etc is much harder to do on a scaling basis.  Normally those mobs have "buff packages" on them that increase their stats for a given expansion or zone.

It will take some time but we will continue to work on a solution to make the dungeons scalable and try to maintain an even challenge level across all players.  Until we do that, rewards will need to be disabled for play as your character.

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Old 12-21-2011, 12:56 PM   #17
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Rothgar wrote:

This is the reason we chose to launch with Avatar's in the first place.  In order to properly scale the challenge of the zone it'll take much more than looking at character level.  We'll need to consider AA's, spell mastery level and gear quality.

Then once we have a value to measure player power, scaling the NPC's is a different hurdle.  Currently we can only dynamically adjust tier and level.  Modifying stats such as crit, potency, etc is much harder to do on a scaling basis.  Normally those mobs have "buff packages" on them that increase their stats for a given expansion or zone.

It will take some time but we will continue to work on a solution to make the dungeons scalable and try to maintain an even challenge level across all players.  Until we do that, rewards will need to be disabled for play as your character.

So basically you mean that you're going to look at a players gear/stats and all that to assess how difficult to make the dungeons? The first issue I see stemming from that is that some people will macro to weaker gear, load into a dungeon, then macro back to their normal gear. I wouldn't do it but you know someone out there would.

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Old 12-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #18
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Rothgar wrote:

It will take some time but we will continue to work on a solution to make the dungeons scalable and try to maintain an even challenge level across all players.  Until we do that, rewards will need to be disabled for play as your character.

I guess my question is:  "Why?"

I can get better rewards in other places.  It's not like these rewards are going to break the game.  I mean, seriously.  Look at what is available.  Maybe a HM raid geared SK can plow thru these dungeons in a few minutes . . . so what?  Maybe he ends up with 15k tokens in a couple days.  So what?  There isn't anything available there that he can't get more / better of elsewhere with that character.

The rewards aren't the attraction here.  Clearly, the challenge isn't the attraction.

If there are better rewards coming, ok, fine, depending on those rewards it might be an issue, but I doubt it.  The dungeons aren't really all that challenging to "real" players, and if they become challenging, the lack of rewards will prevent people from running the dungeons.

All in all, at the current levels of reward, I just don't see any issue with giving a character the same reward for running the dungeon with an Avatar versus a "real" character.

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Old 12-21-2011, 04:37 PM   #19
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I love the dungeon maker, last night i wnet in to a actually fairly well designed one with a consistent theme and well placed mobs.  it needed a bit more tweaking but it showcased the caability of the system.  The issue i had was that i would move forward egage 2-3 click my attack spell every 5 or 6 sec cast a heal if i dropped below 50% (i was using the icemaiden avatar) I repeated those steps for the next 30 or 40 minutes. 

Yeah okay maybe being raid geared im op for scaling but i honestly think atm i could run with just my thorns and heals (aoe damage proc on all heals cast) and still manage to pull a room of 50 mobs or so and clear it without even spilling my coffee.

Luckily im a player not a dev so i only have to about the implementation not find realistic solutions.  That being said from a 90's standpoint since gear can varry from someone playing sf just hitting lvl 90 with only jouyneman and treasured gear to a hm pow raider (do they even exist yet) maybe do a average gear check though the zone (do a random every ~1min - 2 min gear value or somethign stupid like that) and use that as a end of zone reward multiplier.

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Old 12-21-2011, 04:42 PM   #20
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bobonice wrote:

just ran though rawr(sp?) dungeon with raid geared melee warden.  There wasn't much challenge before in the dungeons i've run and playing as myself took out even the challenge of minimizing the number of mobs pulled at a time.  There is a definate scaling issue.

You are in Raid gear, if SOE makes DM dungeons a challenge for Raid gear players it defeats the entire reason for them.  This is a casual player non-raider feature.  Now at some point SOE might want to look at a flag you can turn on and off for DM's if you chose too, to make them more "Heroic" for raid geared toons that say give 1.5x's the tokens, but making them challenging for a raid geared player right out the gate would be a disaster and create yet another unused game feature since the average player wont be able to beat it reasonably

This is the reason we chose to launch with Avatar's in the first place.  In order to properly scale the challenge of the zone it'll take much more than looking at character level.  We'll need to consider AA's, spell mastery level and gear quality.

Then once we have a value to measure player power, scaling the NPC's is a different hurdle.  Currently we can only dynamically adjust tier and level.  Modifying stats such as crit, potency, etc is much harder to do on a scaling basis.  Normally those mobs have "buff packages" on them that increase their stats for a given expansion or zone.

It will take some time but we will continue to work on a solution to make the dungeons scalable and try to maintain an even challenge level across all players.  Until we do that, rewards will need to be disabled for play as your character.

What about just putting hard caps on player stats for these dungeons. Like a player would have to mentor down to 50 with a cap of 40% Crit Bonus and Potency yet are able to retain all of their abilities?

Edit. Heck even if players are BELOW the stat caps you could even raise them up to 30% to make it even more balanced bringing in lesser geared/leveled friends just like that other game does for War zones.

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Old 12-21-2011, 04:43 PM   #21
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or just as a random thought be able to create an avatar from your characters.

make it customizable with say 5 spells, equipment and so on.

Personally being able to customiuze an avatar would be infinitly more interesting to me than playing my regular toon...I run my toon thoguh zones day after day.  I fail to see the excitemnt of going into a theme park ride with it as well

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Old 12-21-2011, 05:08 PM   #22
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Bobonice wrote:

or just as a random thought be able to create an avatar from your characters.

make it customizable with say 5 spells, equipment and so on.

Personally being able to customiuze an avatar would be infinitly more interesting to me than playing my regular toon...I run my toon thoguh zones day after day.  I fail to see the excitemnt of going into a theme park ride with it as well

This is what I would like to see. I think balancing vs current structure of toons is a monumental task. So big that I don't think it will ever work 100% and will constantly need to be tweaked. I'd rather have a limited version of my toon(s) that I can customize somewhat with appearance gear and a small choice of spells/CA to determine to some degree how I play that class (melee healer vs pure healer vs nuke healer, etc). Have these limited toons stay with you (don't want to remake them every DM instance). Give me a sense of accomplishment with my game-within-a-game toon. That would be cool. Of course I'd want to give them a name just like my normal toons.

It might be a big effort to organize and program for this structure in the beginning, but likely not as much in the end as the effort it will be to constantly tweak DM for the current complexity of our actual toons.

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Old 12-21-2011, 09:35 PM   #23
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Before doing all this work to get the created dungeons to scale for player toons themselves, wouldn't it seem to be a bit more practical to work on the scaling issues on the existing avatar versions first?  I've been testing dungeons created for different numbers of people in the group and it appears that the scaling is totally messed.  If you take a solo strength dungeon and run 2 people in it, they breeze through it in a fraction of the time.  If you take a created dungeon meant for two players and try with 3 it scales up in difficulty/time spent as expected but adding a 4th person turns it into a hellishly long time eating nightmare where the rewards are only a fraction of what could be obtained even from doing smaller solo versions.

Once you throw in the additional complication of trying to create a scaling system to take into affect all the nuances of player characters in all their forms, it would seem that the scaling issues are going to suffer even more.  A raid geared 90 totally outclasses a non-raid 90, who absolutely dominates any other level when scaled to them.  Anyone who's chrono'd knows the scaling issues for characters are off, as evidenced by solo chrono'd 90s killing epics.

In my opinion and in my experience of both the creation, and running of the avatar dungeons, I think it would be better for the community overall to improve that aspect instead of adding in even more issues from allowing characters to run them.

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Old 12-22-2011, 01:14 AM   #24
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Cyliena wrote:

So basically you mean that you're going to look at a players gear/stats and all that to assess how difficult to make the dungeons? The first issue I see stemming from that is that some people will macro to weaker gear, load into a dungeon, then macro back to their normal gear. I wouldn't do it but you know someone out there would.

They could write a tool that could check for this, and flags accounts if there is a constant major shift in gear directly after loading the DM's, then after x times this gets kickes out to a CSR to be verified and appropriate action s can be taken against those accounts exploiting this.

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Old 12-22-2011, 03:50 AM   #25
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Bobonice wrote:

just ran though rawr(sp?) dungeon with raid geared melee warden.  There wasn't much challenge before in the dungeons i've run and playing as myself took out even the challenge of minimizing the number of mobs pulled at a time.  There is a definate scaling issue.

You are in Raid gear, if SOE makes DM dungeons a challenge for Raid gear players it defeats the entire reason for them.  This is a casual player non-raider feature.  Now at some point SOE might want to look at a flag you can turn on and off for DM's if you chose too, to make them more "Heroic" for raid geared toons that say give 1.5x's the tokens, but making them challenging for a raid geared player right out the gate would be a disaster and create yet another unused game feature since the average player wont be able to beat it reasonably

This is the reason we chose to launch with Avatar's in the first place.  In order to properly scale the challenge of the zone it'll take much more than looking at character level.  We'll need to consider AA's, spell mastery level and gear quality.

Then once we have a value to measure player power, scaling the NPC's is a different hurdle.  Currently we can only dynamically adjust tier and level.  Modifying stats such as crit, potency, etc is much harder to do on a scaling basis.  Normally those mobs have "buff packages" on them that increase their stats for a given expansion or zone.

It will take some time but we will continue to work on a solution to make the dungeons scalable and try to maintain an even challenge level across all players.  Until we do that, rewards will need to be disabled for play as your character.

Adjusting to the character stats is insane.  Just adjust to the difficulty of normal content.  Then, let the player select their difficulty level with 1 being standard solo/group and scale up linearly from there to a pretty high level that will be very hard to defeat.  For rewards give a much smaller amount for playing your own character than the avatars and give a less than linear increase in reward for higher difficulty (diminishing returns).  Let the players balance the dungeons themselves.  It might be necessary to limit how often a particular dungeon can be played to 1/day (while playing your own character only?) to reduce the exploitability of the system.  It might also be a good idea to limit how many dungeons a person can do per day on a particular character as well.

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Old 12-23-2011, 08:59 PM   #26
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Developing an algorithm to automatically scale based on a  toons....shall we say uberness..

As a software engineer I would have to say this sounds like super fun!  Rothgar has a fun (potentially stressful) task hehe.

Good luck!

Lol not that it would fly well but would be lol if you all of the sudden had a stat at the bottom like:

Uberness:  3.2  (based on 5.0 scale)  lol

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Old 12-24-2011, 06:47 AM   #27
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Cyliena wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

This is the reason we chose to launch with Avatar's in the first place.  In order to properly scale the challenge of the zone it'll take much more than looking at character level.  We'll need to consider AA's, spell mastery level and gear quality.

Then once we have a value to measure player power, scaling the NPC's is a different hurdle.  Currently we can only dynamically adjust tier and level.  Modifying stats such as crit, potency, etc is much harder to do on a scaling basis.  Normally those mobs have "buff packages" on them that increase their stats for a given expansion or zone.

It will take some time but we will continue to work on a solution to make the dungeons scalable and try to maintain an even challenge level across all players.  Until we do that, rewards will need to be disabled for play as your character.

So basically you mean that you're going to look at a players gear/stats and all that to assess how difficult to make the dungeons? The first issue I see stemming from that is that some people will macro to weaker gear, load into a dungeon, then macro back to their normal gear. I wouldn't do it but you know someone out there would.

They already seem to be doing a check against the strength of the group as remaining mobs in the dungeon scale difficulty based on the number of people in the group running it. Stands to reason if they are doing this type of check already they could apply it to assigning a value based on gear, spells etc and if that value changes then reassign difficult of remaining mobs based on the new stat value.

Working out this type of mechanic goes a long way in helping them balance all game content to keep overpowered toons from trivializing content which has been a large factor in economic problems within the game.

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Old 12-26-2011, 06:36 PM   #28
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Just ran through the Dungeon "A Little Bit of This... A Lot  of That" playing as a 90th Bruiser. My gear is mostly quested or open world/easy dungeon dropped Legendary, pre-Velious, pre-item revamp (so poor by today's standards). My bruiser has under 200 AAs (foolishly logged him out before I began this post so I can't remember exactly how many - probably around 170).

The dungeon was very pleasant in terms of difficulty. Absolutely no risk involved but the fights took a fair while, which is just how I like it. Unlike the Avatars, who run out of power very quickly if I pull a lot of mobs at once, my Bruiser could pull most of a room and chip away at everything at once, which is my preferred gameplay.

I like the normal Avatar Dungeon Maker gameplay so I'm not one of the folks that feels the "your character" option was particularly needed. If the price of playing as your own character is not to get any reward at all (marks, xp) then I really can't see any point in it. On the other hand, it's clearly much, much easier to play as your own character and will be a nightmare to balance so I entirely understand why giving rewards is going to be problematic.

The problem as i see it is this: if playing as your character is in any way perceived as being less optimal than playing as an avatar there will be uproar. Being given the option to play as your own character will not be received as a nice option and good response to player feedback unless it is at least as good in terms of all rewards as playing as an avatar. Anything less will be received as "a slap in the face" and "forcing us to play as avatars".

It would be better to hold the line and offer avatars only than to go Live with a "play as your character" option that could be perceived as inferior to playing as an avatar. It would be nice to imagine that players would be grateful for the choice and understanding of the difficulties but they just won't be.

Leaving that aside, one of the nicest things about the Avatar system is that absolutely anyone can group with absolutely anyone using it. I've been duoing the dungeons on Freeport as a 90th Berserker with Velious gear and 250 AAs playing with a level 20 crafter who's never adventured at all and it works perfectly. The characters are perfectly balanced and equally useful. You can't do that with mentoring.

How will "play as your character" work with characters of different levels? Will it allow mentoring? Chronomentoring? What new kinds of balance problems will that bring to the table? And if you do manage to get some kind of *cough* Gearscore *cough* system running, how will that deal with duos or groups of characters with wildly different gear/AAs? Let alone levels.

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Old 12-26-2011, 08:04 PM   #29
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Yea avatars die too fast. If you get more then 4 mobs on you, it's safe to say you'll die and have to run back. I was in a dungeon on AB once, it was crammed so full of mobss it made me feel like a lemming. I was frustrated by the end. I hope to never replay it with an avatar. Playing through with an avatar equals "go into room, pull anything, everything comes, only manage to take down 1 mob, die, come back" wash rince repeat until the room is clear. That shouldn't be how you play this game. Death is treated as just another obstacle "Oops I died. Better keep moving". Sure some of the the blame could go to the dungeon designer for being over zealious with the mob spawners, but a huge portion of the problem is the lack of health, power, defence, and combat prowls of the avatars. They don't have what it takes to survive in tough situations, but if I run my real characters I'd probably have a blood bath field day. To be fair I don't think even a player character should be able to face a room so thick of mobs you can't see the floor. To me that'd be like when Han Solo ran into that cargo bay on the death star and saw it packed full of stormtroopers, he just about pooped himself and ran back in a panic to warn the others and get outta there. lol

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Old 12-27-2011, 12:03 PM   #30
Gaealiege
Server: Butcherblock
Guild: Eruanna Ar Fuin
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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My berserker pulls 2-3 rooms simultaneously clears them within a minute move on.

I hope the rewards for this are dramatically lowered.  The same dungeon that would have taken me 25 minutes now takes me around 3.

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