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Old 02-27-2012, 02:03 PM   #31
Freejazzlive

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[email protected] wrote:

Nearly every other dumbed-down MMO involves smashing 3-4 buttons over and over.

Back before the 2005 Combat Upgrade, I felt that as a Swashy I had a good number of buttons to push, but for the most part I was only using a few of them -- maybe regularly using as many as 5-6.

In EQ1, I very rarely ever used more than 3-4 buttons in any given fight, regardless of what class I was playing. In UO, it was Corp Por Corp Por Kal Vas Flam.

In this context, AFAIC every MMO has been "dumbed down." The challenge shouldn't come from operating the hotbar*, but from the encounters themselves -- that, in fact, is why EQ1 was, in many ways, a better MMO. The reason EQ2 is declining is that there's no longer much challenge in any given encounter, unless the encounter is coded with gear & DPS checks, or is simply randomly buggy.

*NB: this doesn't mean that having only ONE button to spam, ala' Dungeon Maker avatars, is a good thing

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Old 02-27-2012, 04:09 PM   #32
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frakkenstein wrote:

The action based classes are relatively boring compared to other games of the genre.  Customization is pretty good for a f2p but the physical combat lacks impact and any kind of speed.

EQ2 is not a hack and slack buttom masher console game.

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Old 02-27-2012, 04:24 PM   #33
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Brigh wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Of all the reasons I would never recommend EQ2 to someone looking for an MMO, none of them really made your list.  I think the UI is actually above average (implied targeting ftw), and the classes are really pretty interesting (though you have to get to end game before it matters).

The main reasons I wouldn't recommend EQ2 is just that the content isn't very interesting (especially pre-DoV), the development team has shown no interest in polishing/fixing the existing game (only adding new features), and overall, the game just really shows its age.

You are saying 7 years of content, the entire game, isn't interesting?

There are a handful of interesting quests and encounters in the game.  However, the quests are generally bland and/or poorly written, and it would help if the text was presented better (or voiced).  Most of the early encounters are just turn 'n burn, and none of the content pre-DoV is tuned properly after the itemization revamps.  Even in the DoV raid content, the vast majority of the encounters feel basically the same - joust AE, kill adds, cure curse, archetype debuff.  Yeah, there are different mechanics on different mobs here and there, but winning always comes down to the same things.

EDIT: Really, it occurs to me that I can handle bland or ridiculous stories in MMO questing, but then there needs to be something else to hook my interest, such as the light/dark side decisions in SW:TOR.  I also like how some WoW quests change up the gameplay by putting you on a vehicle and letting you gun down mobs.  Heck, throwing a cutscene in once in a while would make questing more interesting, too.

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Old 02-27-2012, 05:13 PM   #34
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

EDIT: Really, it occurs to me that I can handle bland or ridiculous stories in MMO questing, but then there needs to be something else to hook my interest, like the light/dark side decisions in SW:TOR.  I also like how some WoW quests change up the gameplay by putting you on a vehicle and letting you gun down mobs.  Heck, throwing a cutscene in once in a while would make questing more interesting, too.

Different approaches work for different players -- I dislike almost everything I've seen about SW:TOR, & the WoW "vehicle quests" make me nerd-rage; they're one of the biggest reasons I quit playing WoW.

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Old 02-27-2012, 05:17 PM   #35
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I'd hazard a guess that the OP is just a bored troll poking some sticks to see what trouble he can stir up, but that's just my guess.

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Old 02-27-2012, 05:18 PM   #36
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Freejazzlive wrote:

Different approaches work for different players -- I dislike almost everything I've seen about SW:TOR, & the WoW "vehicle quests" make me nerd-rage; they're one of the biggest reasons I quit playing WoW.

Certainly, people have different tastes.  However, I'm curious if you would find EQ2 quest dialogue interesting if you were just reading a transcript online.  I struggle to find anything engaging about EQ2's questing system, unless maybe you just really love Norrath and think the dialogue is cool.

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Old 02-27-2012, 05:32 PM   #37
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

However, I'm curious if would you find EQ2 quest dialogue interesting if you were just reading a transcript online.

I don't know -- I have never, in any MMO I've ever played, cared much about reading the quest dialog. I'm one of those people who clicks the quest-giver, accepts the quest, & goes. In fact, one of my mistaken impressions of SW: TOR was that I couldn't click through the quest dialog, & I was hating life listening to a bunch of voice-overs which I really didn't care to listen to. Once I found out I could mostly skip the dialog, I was somewhat happier.

For me, the "interesting" part of the quest is actually going out into the world & doing it, & so far, for the most part, I've found that content more interesting to me in EQ2 than in most other MMOs. I will concede, however, that one of the reasons for this is the graphics; Norrath, to my eyes, is quite pretty, whereas WoW is not. SW:TOR & Rift are both also pretty games, but there's very little in either of them that I like, & a great deal I dislike.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block, for me, to both of those games is that I'm tired of hard-coded factions that can't communicate or associate with each other. I think that's lazy, uninspired, bland, & boring. I'm tired of instanced dungeons & PvP. I'm tired of feeling like my character is on a rail leading from one questing hub to another. Of those issues, the only one with which EQ2 is plagued is heavily instanced content, but EQ2 also has a good deal of contested dungeons too, whereas Rift & WoW do not, & if SW: TOR does, it's news to me.

Beyond that, EQ2 has a lot of non-combat, non-adventuring gameplay as well. I don't feel like I can say that about WoW or either of its modern clones. This is important to me, even if I don't generally participate in it, because it makes me feel much more that my character exists in a "world," as opposed to just a big sandbox. In those other games, non-combat gameplay is given mere lip service, which reduces them to ROLL play & breaks my immersion. Even if I don't RP a lot ... EQ2 is, IMO, a better MMO for it than anything other than LOTRO.

My only hangup is SOE itself. If EQ2 were sold to a better company, I'd probably feel it worth a subscription, but SOE doesn't deserve a single penny from me.

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Old 02-27-2012, 05:35 PM   #38
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A troll made one post yesterday and has been fed 3 pages worth. Winning like Charlie Sheen!

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Old 02-27-2012, 07:33 PM   #39
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It befuddles me how people can hate so hard on EQ2's interface.  Some of the newer changes aside (the huge, ugly XP bar post-Halas, for instance) EQ2's UI is one of the most robust and user-friendly of any MMO.  You can reposition, scale, and adjust the opacity of any window you want, setting up the UI to your tastes, with far greater freedom than with most other MMO's.  Yes, it's a bit plain (but I like that) , but ... do you play the game for the UI, or do you play for the gameplay?

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Old 02-27-2012, 08:37 PM   #40
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frakkenstein wrote:

I've played tons of console, arcade, f2p, subscription, and boxed games since the days of Atari as well as almost all of SOE's games.  I did not, however, play EQ2 when it was first released.  I've been playing EQ2 for about 3 weeks or so now.

The user interface was not well thought out.  Compared to other games released BEFORE EQ2 the user interface in EQ2 is pretty bad. 

Many aspects of the game are not addressed by the hints and even when they are the hints usually do not help most players figure out how to work the game.

The action based classes are relatively boring compared to other games of the genre.  Customization is pretty good for a f2p but the physical combat lacks impact and any kind of speed.

Many pve enemies have ratings including level, heroic status, 3 star, 3 arrow, and rare or boss types.  Just throw all this out the window as it really means nothing.  I have been able to destroy heroic bosses 3 levels above me with 3 stars and 3 arrows and their lower difficulty mobs with them that, according to the EQ2 information pop-up from the enemies name, should have wasted me.  Conversely, I have died to two non-heroic, 2 arrow, 0 star mobs that were 10, yes TEN, levels below me.  DO NOT BELIEVE THE ENEMY INFORMATION. It is absolutely just wasting space inside of EQ2 server.  

Items also include a type of rating or status level that is legendary, fabled, and some other stuff.  This is SOE's greed showing itself.  The reason I state this is that I have FOUND, not craft, same level f2p gear that is better than the legendary stuff. Not only is it just ridiculous to have to pay for 'better' gear but sometimes it's not even 'better.'

Loot drop is pretty laughable.  I played with a friend from another game for a bit and not only did need/greed put everything into his hands while we both picked greed, but when he solo'd he had about twice as many loot and chest drops.  At the time he was not even silver and I had spent maybe $30 (I like a few mounts, sue me).  Not a very good way to reward your paying customers and thus a great way to push away customers from subscriptions.

Mounts can fly, glide, jump, or run but many of the areas in which we can bring a flying, jumping or gliding mount tops out thus denying the speed boost given by these mounts.  This just doesn't make sense.  Why make mounts that essentially slow the player down or make areas that don't allow the player to use these mounts that we can buy for station cash.  That just smacks the subscription customer in the face with the short-sightedness of SOE.

Some quests are just there to anger SOE's customers.  For example the free Froglok race quests.  As a silver member I competled this quest and was told in game by the game that I now had unlocked the Froglok race.  I went to make one and could not so I eventually found someone who subscribed and they informed me that it would be there if I had a subscription.  So i asked would it have been unlocked from the start or would I need to complete this quest?  It seems Froglok's are unlocked with a subscription as opposed to completing this quest.  I do not know a better way to slap your customer's in the face other then to simply delete the postings regarding real game issues specifically to hide the issues. OOOOHHHH, that's only for a different SOE game, not this one.  SOE employees are lame.  I'ld rather play the dungeon crawler DDO that allows f2p customers to earn EVERYTHING IN THE GAME.  

There are more topics that could be added to this extremely long monologue but in conclusion, EQ2 may not be quit as buggy and issue filled as some of SOE's other games, but many aspects of this game were not very well thought out.  If SOE wants to acquire more subscription accounts they really should try not to aggrevate potential customers with shoddy development.  Focus on fixing egregious errors and SOE may actually earn a few more dollars.  Until then I am happy to hop around for free on my $10 mount as opposed to spending over $100 and have to wait for subscription funds for a couple months before I can buy a SC mount.

And you are here why exactly?

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Old 02-27-2012, 08:43 PM   #41
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wow...you're seriously jumping his butt because he's a new player bumping into broken and buggy mechanics and interface that we've complained about needing fixes for for weeks/months/years?

You're telling him to quit because he's suggesting that errors are fixed?

Pretty sure he's above level 5 as he mentioned completing the Froglok racial unlock quest- which would be the Hero of Kugup line.

He's a new player who came in and immediately starting (edited). It seems to me that if you find the game that intolerable, then new or old, quit.

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Old 02-27-2012, 09:09 PM   #42
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Well I was a bard in EQ1, Jazz, and I can assure you that 3-4 buttons wasn't how I was rolling.  I suppose if you played a rogue or warrior back in those days though....

I do agree that encounter design has become trite though.  WoW's raid fights are interesting, but class design in that game is rolled out on a factory assembly line for Fisher-Price.

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Old 02-27-2012, 09:50 PM   #43
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[email protected] wrote:

Well I was a bard in EQ1

Indeed, I had not considered Bard play in EQ1, so thank you for reminding me. I don't really think any of the other classes were all that more difficult, so much as they were more tedious -- Magician summons pets, armor, weapons, bags, buffs pet ... GODS forbid that the pet should die on a bad pull, or the Mage needs to zone ........ bleccch.

But the EQ1 world, especially pre-POK .... that was a different story, when you actually had to run to get from Qeynos to Kelethin, then look for someone to bind you so you didn't have to do it all over again when you died .......

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:11 PM   #44
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Freejazzlive wrote:

I agree with the OP's basic conclusion: EQ2 is not worth a subscription, & it hasn't been for quite some time.

However, it's not because EQ2 itself isn't worth the money -- it's because SOE isn't. EQ2 is the best MMO available, run by one of the worst MMO companys in the business.

For example, the OP mentioned the Froglok quest. In the very early days of EQ2, Frogloks were not readily available -- you had to do that quest to unlock them. Then, at some point, SOE simply made Frogloks available to everyone, left the Kugup quest line in, & apparently never bothered to update it so that it no longer tells people who have completed it that they have unlocked the Froglok race.

Now that SOE is F2P, the quest still doesn't unlock the Froglok race -- you have to pay for it. But they never bothered to update that quest line to reflect THAT change, either, so now totally new players, who likely have no idea at all about the history of EQ2, can do the Kugup line, be told they've unlocked the Froglok race, & then find out that's simply not true.

/facepalm

smart man, you read between the lines. I also played dcuo which is another SOE ran game and it has the same issue.. SOE being that issue.  Good games ran by bad companies make box games go f2p.

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:19 PM   #45
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What is it with game forums and two week old players with their need to pretend they already know everything about the game?

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:34 PM   #46
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"Awww, are you new?" "are you level five?" my response... are you five years old? see? childish isnt it. please at least try to act like an adult.

I have played several classes to varying levels if you must know.  Kind of have a lot of time on my hands (trolls encouraged here as it may be funny).

Most of these responses miss many of my statements.  The title states not worth a 'subscription.'  EQ2 is a decent f2p game (probably would have been the best if it came out as f2p, but same thing can be said for dcuo).  Also these responses are from people who play the game, which is I dare say a very low number compared to other games I regularly play.  That being the case, take into consideration that you enjoy this game and thus play it and thus as I am here and posting on these matters that I do the same.  Again, at least try to act like adults please, it makes forums so much more reasonable.

This is not a button mashing game. Anyone who thinks that the action speed in this game is fast needs to try other games. Very few mmo's are fast paced.  That being said, the combat is NOT why I DO like this game.  Far from it, the combat simply frustrates me usually because of the inept mob scenarios but also because I actually want to fight faster.  

What does make me like this game is the environments and the housing customization and these are far from unique to this game.  Also I enjoy the crafting which is somewhat unique.

Regarding the UI I do think it is neat to be able to customize and bring it stuff from outside the game but really, if I have to do that, I will just play a game that was developed better.  This brings me to the dev stuff... and also finishes my statement on the dev stuff. It's SOE, I do not expect SOE to actually take care of its product and the fact that SOE has their name on something brings down my rating instantly. However I do believe SOE wants to make money and I am positive that at some point they will realize how they push away their customers possibly by reading a post such as this.

Lastly, I had no intention of responding to anyones statements as 1; I figured there were maybe 2 people still on this thing lol (the game is kinda old and dead), 2; the post is not intended for the customers of SOE, its intended for SOE. 

let the trolling (american gamers pastime and half of the posts responses) commense

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:36 PM   #47
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see, troll:

Elomort wrote:

What is it with game forums and two week old players with their need to pretend they already know everything about the game?

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:47 PM   #48
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frakkenstein wrote:

1. Anyone who thinks that the action speed in this game is fast needs to try other games.   

2. Regarding the UI I do think it is neat to be able to customize and bring it stuff from outside the game but really, if I have to do that, I will just play a game that was developed better.  

3. the post is not intended for the customers of SOE, its intended for SOE.

I've snipped out a few commments I wished to address, & numbered them for convenience.

1. This is entirely a matter of personal taste, which IMO can't be fairly held as a point against subscribing. It is, of course, valid for you, but it's not necessarily so for anyone else. I don't play MMOs for faster combat, for example, & the EQ2 combat speed & system has always been pretty much "right" for me.

2. I'm not sure it's possible to develop a "better" UI for a MMO, because -- again -- "better" is a matter of individual perception. I like the customization of the UI, because I realize that my preferred UI setup is not the same as that of others. IMO, in fact, most games could do with a customizable UI; IMO, that is what I call "developed better," when I can customize the game's UI to my tastes, not those of the developer.

3. If you intended it for SOE & not other players, posting your comments on the General Discussion forum was not a good decision. I'm not sure what other medium you might better have chosen, but this being a public forum, you're going to get public discussion whether you want it, like it, or not.

I agree that EQ2 is not worth a subscription, but like I said earlier, I think the game, overall, is the best MMO available. If it were sold to a company that cared about it enough to treat it like a Triple A MMO, I'd subscribe.

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:54 PM   #49
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Freejazzlive wrote:

I agree that EQ2 is not worth a subscription, but like I said earlier, I think the game, overall, is the best MMO available. If it were sold to a company that cared about it enough to treat it like a Triple A MMO, I'd subscribe.

Amen.

I haven't logged in for a while, but I keep coming here hopeful that I'll see some positive movement on the P7S1 deal. This game has been (IMO, of course) absolutely the best MMO currently going, and it's incredibly sad watching the slow motion trainwreck that is SOE's mishandling of it.

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Old 02-29-2012, 08:16 PM   #50
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frakkenstein wrote:

I've played tons of console, arcade, f2p, subscription, and boxed games since the days of Atari as well as almost all of SOE's games.  I did not, however, play EQ2 when it was first released.  I've been playing EQ2 for about 3 weeks or so now.

The user interface was not well thought out.  Compared to other games released BEFORE EQ2 the user interface in EQ2 is pretty bad. 

Many aspects of the game are not addressed by the hints and even when they are the hints usually do not help most players figure out how to work the game.

The action based classes are relatively boring compared to other games of the genre.  Customization is pretty good for a f2p but the physical combat lacks impact and any kind of speed.

Many pve enemies have ratings including level, heroic status, 3 star, 3 arrow, and rare or boss types.  Just throw all this out the window as it really means nothing.  I have been able to destroy heroic bosses 3 levels above me with 3 stars and 3 arrows and their lower difficulty mobs with them that, according to the EQ2 information pop-up from the enemies name, should have wasted me.  Conversely, I have died to two non-heroic, 2 arrow, 0 star mobs that were 10, yes TEN, levels below me.  DO NOT BELIEVE THE ENEMY INFORMATION. It is absolutely just wasting space inside of EQ2 server.  

Items also include a type of rating or status level that is legendary, fabled, and some other stuff.  This is SOE's greed showing itself.  The reason I state this is that I have FOUND, not craft, same level f2p gear that is better than the legendary stuff. Not only is it just ridiculous to have to pay for 'better' gear but sometimes it's not even 'better.'

Loot drop is pretty laughable.  I played with a friend from another game for a bit and not only did need/greed put everything into his hands while we both picked greed, but when he solo'd he had about twice as many loot and chest drops.  At the time he was not even silver and I had spent maybe $30 (I like a few mounts, sue me).  Not a very good way to reward your paying customers and thus a great way to push away customers from subscriptions.

Mounts can fly, glide, jump, or run but many of the areas in which we can bring a flying, jumping or gliding mount tops out thus denying the speed boost given by these mounts.  This just doesn't make sense.  Why make mounts that essentially slow the player down or make areas that don't allow the player to use these mounts that we can buy for station cash.  That just smacks the subscription customer in the face with the short-sightedness of SOE.

Some quests are just there to anger SOE's customers.  For example the free Froglok race quests.  As a silver member I competled this quest and was told in game by the game that I now had unlocked the Froglok race.  I went to make one and could not so I eventually found someone who subscribed and they informed me that it would be there if I had a subscription.  So i asked would it have been unlocked from the start or would I need to complete this quest?  It seems Froglok's are unlocked with a subscription as opposed to completing this quest.  I do not know a better way to slap your customer's in the face other then to simply delete the postings regarding real game issues specifically to hide the issues. OOOOHHHH, that's only for a different SOE game, not this one.  SOE employees are lame.  I'ld rather play the dungeon crawler DDO that allows f2p customers to earn EVERYTHING IN THE GAME.  

There are more topics that could be added to this extremely long monologue but in conclusion, EQ2 may not be quit as buggy and issue filled as some of SOE's other games, but many aspects of this game were not very well thought out.  If SOE wants to acquire more subscription accounts they really should try not to aggrevate potential customers with shoddy development.  Focus on fixing egregious errors and SOE may actually earn a few more dollars.  Until then I am happy to hop around for free on my $10 mount as opposed to spending over $100 and have to wait for subscription funds for a couple months before I can buy a SC mount.

Every person's perception of value is different. Thank you for your feedback, there were a number of interesting tidbits in there. I'm pretty happy with EQ2 at the moment as a player, your milage may vary.

I'm afraid the rest of the post is well outside the boundaries of the Forum Guidelines however, and as a result I'll lock it (even if I was a bit tardy to do so).

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