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Old 02-19-2012, 03:04 PM   #121
Freejazzlive

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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Players would still need to properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc ...

However, this is a game, and there should not need to have excessive levels of preparations, background knowledge of mechanics, use of 3rd party programs, or military style teamwork and organization.

If you don't have at least a cursory grasp of game mechanics, you can't "properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc.," because you don't have any idea whatsoever of what does what, when, & why.

Or, to put it another way: Dungeons & Dragons is a game, which requires at least a couple of those things you assert are bad: "excessive" levels of preparation, & background knowledge of mechanics. Without those two things, D&D players are simply terrible. I'd even suggest you "need" 3rd party programs -- like, say, a freekin' IPAD -- to keep up with all the reams of information you need. None of that makes D&D a bad game, & the three groups I see playing every Friday night, down at my local game store, seem to be having great amounts of fun playing despite those issues.

Finally, while I know there are guilds with "military style teamwork & organization," I've never been in one, nor would I tolerate being in one, & I don't think they're exactly "required" even for modern raiding. Also, even during the times I did raid, I didn't use ACT or any other third party programs, & the only time I've ever used ACT was when I briefly joined a raid guild in Rift & needed to know exactly what my actual DPS was. I've never used ACT in EQ2, & have never seen a need to do so. But I've also never been a raid leader; if I was, I'd have been using ACT long ago, & wouldn't see a single thing wrong with doing so.

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Old 02-19-2012, 03:16 PM   #122
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Trynt wrote:

The opportunity to progress is there for anyone. Clearly you would prefer that Challenge Mode raiding be dumbed down enough to negate the lack of preparation, lack of understanding, lack of attention, lack of ability to follow direction, lack of proper spec'ing, lack of most effective (if any) adorning, lack of teamwork, lack of effective (temp or perm) buffing, etc... That's what EM content is for.

Challenge Mode should be designed around an audience that takes the above seriously, and enjoys succeeding in the face of actual challenges.

So... Thankfully, you're not lead designer.

(( I would not choose to present what I am saying in such negative language.

I would phrase it positively, and make changes to enable progression from one level of content to the next as seemless as possible, such that gear from each level enables one to move to the next. Indeed, this is how games like this made in 2012 are supposed to work. Players would still need to properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc ... their gear, or they would not find they were successful, that much is agreed. Similarly, following basic directions and knowing their jobs is also something that one would expect.

However, this is a game, and there should not need to have excessive levels of preparations, background knowledge of mechanics, use of 3rd party programs, or military style teamwork and organization. Anything requiring these sorts of things needs re-design so as not to require it. It is simply not appropriate for an international MMO with a mass playerbase, and it is these things that effectively excludes almost all normal players. There should never be an entire level of content/progression/gear that is, in effect, only accessible by 1% of the population. This is the 21st century, not the dark ages.

The objective should be to set the content design/difficulty such that in practice, when we are talking about 16 months since some hardmode content was released, between 25% and 50% of all subscribers would have been through and completed almost all that content.

So, yes, from the perspective of someone who actually wants a swathe of content only being accessed by 1% of the playerbase, wasting money and resources being provided by all subscribers, yes, for someone with views like that, it is better I were not lead designer, because I would be going in exactly the opposite direction, making content more accessible to all players. ))

The negativity in your post is via implication.  You're implying that my post is founded on the following premises:

1.  That the typical PUR'ers typically care about "properly gear(ing), spec, AA, adorn... following basic directions and knowing their jobs".  This is not reality.  Instead, you may find them on these very boards calling those who do "mere mortals", asking for Challenge Mode content to be castrated, advocating the abolishment of 24 person raids, because that many cannot typically tolerate a "me me me" mentality.  This is not a game problem, it is a player problem that is only overcome by introspection.

2.  That I believe that this is not a game, because you chose to falsely put words in my mouth.  I didn't say "excessive" levels of preparations.  I said preparation (ie. having potions, signets, temp adorns, etc... knowing what they do and actually using them.).  I did not say "military style teamwork or organization."  I said teamwork and effective temp and perm buffing.  Your interpretation and actual wording implies that the mechanics in this game are overly complex.  They're not for anyone who cares to better themselves.  If it's a challenge for you, when it's not for other people... again, that's a player problem, not a game problem.

Believe it or not... some people find challenging games more fun than cow clicking, farmville, and only tank/spank.

3.  That I believe that only 1% of the playerbase should succeed in raiding environments.  To start, that's not correct, and you're making up numbers to support your opinion.  I disagree 100%. 

Additionally, there is far more content in the game than raiding already, and even more when compared to Challenge Mode raiding.  Between the solo content, the heroic content, the tradeskilling, the decorating, free masters, free TS apprentice gear, mercs, dungeon makers, the entire spectrum of questing, brokering, the x2 content, and EM raid content... there's already a tremendous amount of content that casual players, soloists, social butterflies, non-raiders, and raiders alike can all enjoy.

That a small portion of the game exists that targets players who enjoy challenging content with a prerequisite of pushing their playstyle to the highest potential... is not ignoring the other players.  It's offering a small bit to a dedicated portion of their customers.  Your perspective trivializes that entire group of customers.

In short... if you want to succeed against Challenge Mode content, work at it.  If you want overly simplified, easymode, relatively thoughtless, mostly tank and spank content... go run EM stuff.  There's plenty in the game for you to do already.

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Old 02-19-2012, 03:26 PM   #123
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Freejazzlive wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Players would still need to properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc ...

However, this is a game, and there should not need to have excessive levels of preparations, background knowledge of mechanics, use of 3rd party programs, or military style teamwork and organization.

If you don't have at least a cursory grasp of game mechanics, you can't "properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc.," because you don't have any idea whatsoever of what does what, when, & why.

(( It's better not to change my word from excessive to cursory and then imply I believe even a cursory level of knowledge should not be needed. I never said that, nor do I believe it. This is a matter of degree.

A cursory (your word) level of understanding should indeed be required, in order to do the things we both noted, sensibly. Nothing wrong with that.

An excessive (my word) level of understanding and organization, however, should never be needed. However, for a few EM encounters (eg elementals/arcane mob in EM ToSx4) and most HM encounters, it is required. This is bad design in my opinion.

Who defines what is "excessive"? Count the percentage of the playerbase actually completing the content, and you have the answer that matters in reality.

As a percentage, how many paying subscribers should have completed all hardmode Kraytocsx4, hardmode Throne of Stormsx4, hardmode ToRZx4, by this time in the release process? And how many actually have?

I contend, it should be 25-50% (or more), and it is actually 1-2% (to be generous). This means (to me) that the design is out of whack. Significant amounts of content/gear should not be being designed which only such an absolutely tiny number of players are getting access to. ))

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Old 02-19-2012, 03:48 PM   #124
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Trynt wrote:

The negativity in your post is via implication.  You're implying that my post is founded on the following premises:

1.  That the typical PUR'ers typically care about "properly gear(ing), spec, AA, adorn... following basic directions and knowing their jobs".  This is not reality.  Instead, you may find them on these very boards calling those who do "mere mortals", asking for Challenge Mode content to be castrated, advocating the abolishment of 24 person raids, because that many cannot typically tolerate a "me me me" mentality.  This is not a game problem, it is a player problem that is only overcome by introspection.

2.  That I believe that this is not a game, because you chose to falsely put words in my mouth.  I didn't say "excessive" levels of preparations.  I said preparation (ie. having potions, signets, temp adorns, etc... knowing what they do and actually using them.).  I did not say "military style teamwork or organization."  I said teamwork and effective temp and perm buffing.  Your interpretation and actual wording implies that the mechanics in this game are overly complex.  They're not for anyone who cares to better themselves.  If it's a challenge for you, when it's not for other people... again, that's a player problem, not a game problem.

Believe it or not... some people find challenging games more fun than cow clicking, farmville, and only tank/spank.

3.  That I believe that only 1% of the playerbase should succeed in raiding environments.  To start, that's not correct, and you're making up numbers to support your opinion.  I disagree 100%. 

Additionally, there is far more content in the game than raiding already, and even more when compared to Challenge Mode raiding.  Between the solo content, the heroic content, the tradeskilling, the decorating, free masters, free TS apprentice gear, mercs, dungeon makers, the entire spectrum of questing, brokering, the x2 content, and EM raid content... there's already a tremendous amount of content that casual players, soloists, social butterflies, non-raiders, and raiders alike can all enjoy.

That a small portion of the game exists that targets players who enjoy challenging content with a prerequisite of pushing their playstyle to the highest potential... is not ignoring the other players.  It's offering a small bit to a dedicated portion of their customers.  Your perspective trivializes that entire group of customers.

In short... if you want to succeed against Challenge Mode content, work at it.  If you want overly simplified, easymode, relatively thoughtless, mostly tank and spank content... go run EM stuff.  There's plenty in the game for you to do already.

(( Of course, some PUR players are awful. However, it is equally true, that some are very good. You get a mixture, as one would expect. This is not a "player problem" as you put it, it is just normal distribution. This is why some PURs fail before clearing whatever they are trying to do, such is life. But that is not the subject of the thread.

When I am speaking of 1%, I am speaking of those completing the initial set of HMx4 content. Please correct my number if you think it is inaccurate. 2%? Or 0.5%? I think we both know it certainly isn't 5% of the playerbase.

This is where we disagree. I think it should be 25-50% of the playerbase.

To achieve this, I believe progression from EM to HM should be made more seemless. Mass-membership guilds, alliances and pickup forces should be advancing through content by this point, it should not be restricted to a few raidguilds. That is bad for the game! A re-design of some content to make this more seemless is required. The level of difficulty and the knowledge required needs to be set at a level to ensure this is attainable.

If that needs what you call "dumbing down", I call it making the content accessible to the playerbase, and that should be done. If that "trivializes" the content for 1% of the players, so be it, let it be trivialized for them.

You should be getting the clear message here, I believe the game needs to be designed for the mass of the playerbase, not for a tiny tiny number &nbspSMILEY)

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Old 02-19-2012, 03:54 PM   #125
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Freejazzlive wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Players would still need to properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc ...

However, this is a game, and there should not need to have excessive levels of preparations, background knowledge of mechanics, use of 3rd party programs, or military style teamwork and organization.

If you don't have at least a cursory grasp of game mechanics, you can't "properly gear, spec, AA, adorn, etc.," because you don't have any idea whatsoever of what does what, when, & why.

(( It's better not to change my word from excessive to cursory and then imply I believe even a cursory level of knowledge should not be needed. I never said that, nor do I believe it. This is a matter of degree.

A cursory (your word) level of understanding should indeed be required, in order to do the things we both noted, sensibly. Nothing wrong with that.

An excessive (my word) level of understanding and organization, however, should never be needed. However, for a few EM encounters (eg elementals/arcane mob in EM ToSx4) and most HM encounters, it is required. This is bad design in my opinion.

Who defines what is "excessive"? Count the percentage of the playerbase actually completing the content, and you have the answer that matters in reality.

As a percentage, how many paying subscribers should have completed all hardmode Kraytocsx4, hardmode Throne of Stormsx4, hardmode ToRZx4, by this time in the release process? And how many actually have?

I contend, it should be 25-50% (or more), and it is actually 1-2% (to be generous). This means (to me) that the design is out of whack. Significant amounts of content/gear should not be being designed which only such an absolutely tiny number of players are getting access to. ))

FWIW, I don't see why any player should be satisfied to have a merely "cursory" knowledge of game mechanics, & I fail to see how one's knowledge of game mechanics can be called "excessive;" that, BTW, is why I used the word "cursory" in regards to game mechanics. IOW, I wasn't implying that you think people don't need a "cursory" knowledge of game mechanics -- I was, instead, implying that you think people should ONLY need a "cursory" knowledge of game mechanics. If you don't think that, fine .... but if you don't, then I'm failing to see what you're criticizing, because you effectively agree with me. While I think that perhaps a stronger case can be made for "excessive preparation" -- BTW, could you more clearly define what you mean by that? -- I would far rather have "excessive" preparation, than "cursory," & I'd hope you agree, given the meaning of the word "cursory."

I can't begin to say what percentage "should" have completed all of Kraytoc HM by now .... nor, IMO, should you. As to how many actually have ... I don't care. IMO, it's not really relevant to the discussion. I contend that your contention is mere opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to take seriously yourself, but which you are not entitled to expect I will take seriously.

FWIW, I think there's a distinct difference between taking someone's opinion seriously, & respecting the person. I've run into many people whom I respect, who have put forth opinions I can't take seriously. I think, from what little I've seen of your posts over the years, that you are a person deserving of respect; that doesn't mean I think all of your opinions can be taken seriously.

Finally, I'm a "normal" player -- I've never even seen the entrance door for a HM raid, nor do I care if I ever do. BUT, I do care that I have goals towards which I can strive, even if I will never actually strive for them. While I do agree that there are "obnoxious raid mechanics" which need to be got rid of, I am not the least bit in favor of "making all content accessible to all players," primarily because IMO it already is, if people would simply take the time to make themselves qualified for it. It's my very strong opinion, formed by years of personal experience with MMOs, that "all players" are simply not cut out for, nor even interested in, hard-core progression raiding, & as a result I see nothing wrong with SOE "catering" to the playstyle of those who do.

Particularly when there is soooooo much content for "normal" players like me. Quite frankly, it's bad enough that the "normal" content has been dumbed down into mental floss status, simply because SOE has no respect for Aunt Molly & her pretty pink unicorn. The very last thing this game needs is for the last bastion of truly challenging content to be equally nerfed. There is, instead, a very large need for PLAYERS TO BUFF THEIR OWN ABILITY, & this is done by "learning how to play," which is done via "excessive preparation" & "knowledge of game mechanics."

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:09 PM   #126
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You should be getting the clear message here, I believe the game needs to be designed for the mass of the playerbase, not for a tiny tiny number  )

I got your message from your very first post in the thread.  My responses are not intended to change your mind.  I couldn't care less about that.  Instead, my responses are simply made to showcase the fact that there are others playing the game who disagree passionately with your opinion... including those who are not clearing Challenge Mode content currently as illustrated by others who also disagree with you.

What you see as a lack of accessibility, isn't.  If access wasn't possible, no one would be killing anything in the most difficult Challenge Mode zones.  People with your perspective, tend to blame the game for their shortcomings.  People who overcome obstacles, have a tendency to blame themselves first and adjust accordingly.

As a sidenote, Freejazzlive, while you don't have the desire to raid HM content at this time... you have a productive outlook on what it takes and how to approach that aspect of the game.  Should you ever decide to make a go at it... please send me a PM.  Attitudes like yours cannot be taught, while everything else in this game can be.

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:28 PM   #127
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You should be getting the clear message here, I believe the game needs to be designed for the mass of the playerbase, not for a tiny tiny number  )

- You can now make Ry'Gorr and Thurgadin armor with no shards and no crafter if you desire thus giving you a starting set of heroic armor that is more than enough to introduce you to EM raiding.

- They removed crit mit requirements for all of the non-difficult pre-Drunder zones so you can take all those shards and spend them on nothing but adornments for your non-shard required gear.

- They introduced mercs, allowing people to not even require a full group to complete content and do several other things, such as farm plat, solo

- SLR is still alive and well, which means anyone with plat can afford to pick up any armor they choose to purchase.

- The greatest majority of content since RoK was launched has been solo content- accessible to anyone and everyone

- Anyone can do PQs and pick up introductory armor, get war runes(both yellow heroic and red raid), AAs, and weapons

- Many war runes of note are purchasable through faction obtained by grinding solo content- including both yellow heroic runes and red raid runes

- In original DoV alone, there are over 750 solo quests, there are 9 heroic dungeons, one x2 dungeon, one contested raid mob that anyone can kill, one contested HM style mob, 4 x4 EM raid zones, and 4 x4 HM raid zones- out of all of this original content, only the 4 x4 HM raid zones require anything beyond Ry'gorr armor and of those 4 dungeons, only 4 bosses of note require a high level of skill and gear. How much more accessible to the general public does it need to be?

How much more accessible to the general public could it possibly get?!

Now, with the removal of crit mit incoming, here's the chance of all those people who've said "gear is too hard to get" to step up and kill any and every challenge mob they want. The crit mit throttling of content is at an end, allowing a group with 0% crit mit to step up to Vallon HM if they so desire. So...kill it. The wall will no longer be there, so make it happen.

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #128
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Trynt wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You should be getting the clear message here, I believe the game needs to be designed for the mass of the playerbase, not for a tiny tiny number  )

I got your message from your very first post in the thread. 

What you see as a lack of accessibility, isn't.  If access wasn't possible, no one would be killing anything in the most difficult Challenge Mode zones. 

Percentage wise from the whole subscribing playerbase, almost no-one is. And that is the point. Yes, it is a lack of accessibility, in real terms. The numbers of folks actually completing this content, even if we do not have the precise numbers, are clearly so small as to be manifest proof of that.

People with your perspective, tend to blame the game for their shortcomings.

Wanting content to be accessible to more people is not a "shortcoming".

Well, perhaps it is to you, but that is not important to me.

Making feedback on the forums requesting design changes for current and future content is not "blaming" anyone for anything, it is attempting to postively influence the direction of game design for the benefit of the overwhelming majority of paying subscribers. In my opinion, of course.

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:36 PM   #129
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Freejazzlive wrote:

FWIW, I don't see why any player should be satisfied to have a merely "cursory" knowledge of game mechanics, & I fail to see how one's knowledge of game mechanics can be called "excessive;" that, BTW, is why I used the word "cursory" in regards to game mechanics. IOW, I wasn't implying that you think people don't need a "cursory" knowledge of game mechanics -- I was, instead, implying that you think people should ONLY need a "cursory" knowledge of game mechanics. If you don't think that, fine .... but if you don't, then I'm failing to see what you're criticizing, because you effectively agree with me. While I think that perhaps a stronger case can be made for "excessive preparation" -- BTW, could you more clearly define what you mean by that? -- I would far rather have "excessive" preparation, than "cursory," & I'd hope you agree, given the meaning of the word "cursory."

I can't begin to say what percentage "should" have completed all of Kraytoc HM by now .... nor, IMO, should you. As to how many actually have ... I don't care. IMO, it's not really relevant to the discussion. I contend that your contention is mere opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to take seriously yourself, but which you are not entitled to expect I will take seriously.

FWIW, I think there's a distinct difference between taking someone's opinion seriously, & respecting the person. I've run into many people whom I respect, who have put forth opinions I can't take seriously. I think, from what little I've seen of your posts over the years, that you are a person deserving of respect; that doesn't mean I think all of your opinions can be taken seriously.

Finally, I'm a "normal" player -- I've never even seen the entrance door for a HM raid, nor do I care if I ever do. BUT, I do care that I have goals towards which I can strive, even if I will never actually strive for them. While I do agree that there are "obnoxious raid mechanics" which need to be got rid of, I am not the least bit in favor of "making all content accessible to all players," primarily because IMO it already is, if people would simply take the time to make themselves qualified for it. It's my very strong opinion, formed by years of personal experience with MMOs, that "all players" are simply not cut out for, nor even interested in, hard-core progression raiding, & as a result I see nothing wrong with SOE "catering" to the playstyle of those who do.

Particularly when there is soooooo much content for "normal" players like me. Quite frankly, it's bad enough that the "normal" content has been dumbed down into mental floss status, simply because SOE has no respect for Aunt Molly & her pretty pink unicorn. The very last thing this game needs is for the last bastion of truly challenging content to be equally nerfed. There is, instead, a very large need for PLAYERS TO BUFF THEIR OWN ABILITY, & this is done by "learning how to play," which is done via "excessive preparation" & "knowledge of game mechanics."

Very well said.The greatest satisfaction from EQ2 comes when you have a challenge infront of you, that makes you prepare, seek ways to improve your character (skill inclusive) in any way you can, and strive to perform to the best of your ability. Should your efforts prove successful, you get a sense of accomplishment for doing something that posed a challenge.Simply turning up and rolling your face on the keyboard to defeat dumbed down raid content, yields no emotional reward. This reality has cost WoW dearly in recent times. People will get bored very fast, and leave.

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #130
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Percentage wise from the whole subscribing playerbase, almost no-one is. And that is the point. Yes, it is a lack of accessibility, in real terms. The numbers of folks actually completing this content, even if we do not have the precise numbers, are clearly so small as to be manifest proof of that.

You clearly don't understand the definition of accessibility.  POW is not accessible (at least not yet) due to the game.  The game itself is not holding anyone back from killing anything but HM Vallon.

Plenty of Challenge Mode content is already plenty accessible by the very fact that people are killing it.  As a matter of fact, over 300 guilds are killing some HM DoV content at the moment.  If every guild only had 24 players (obviously it's far more than that), that would be 7,200 people.

Advocate whatever opinions you want, but it won't change facts.  You can choose to focus on those players currently killing the hardest boss mobs of every HM zone if you choose.  Still, that won't change the fact that what you're calling "accessibility" isn't.  The access, opportunity, and availability is there for everyone... as proven by the fact that the very mobs you're talking about are dead.

What you're trying to classify as a lack of accessibility, is actually a lack of effort, desire, time, or any combination of them.  It is, in point of fact, a crafty attempt to blame the actual game for a lack of success.  While I suppose that's probably more comforting than reality, it's still not true.  Actual accessibility limitations as posted above... would prevent anyone/everyone from completing content.

Perhaps you'd have better success if you started asking how others do the things that you cannot, instead of trying to drag the game down to ALL easymode levels.

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Old 02-19-2012, 05:08 PM   #131
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Trynt wrote:

You clearly don't understand the definition of accessibility.  POW is not accessible (at least not yet) due to the game.  The game itself is not holding anyone back from killing anything but HM Vallon.

Plenty of Challenge Mode content is already plenty accessible by the very fact that people are killing it.  As a matter of fact, over 300 guilds are killing some HM DoV content at the moment.  If every guild only had 24 players (obviously it's far more than that), that would be 7,200 people.

Advocate whatever opinions you want, but it won't change facts.  You can choose to focus on those players currently killing the hardest boss mobs of every HM zone if you choose.  Still, that won't change the fact that what you're calling "accessibility" isn't.  The access, opportunity, and availability is there for everyone... as proven by the fact that the very mobs you're talking about are dead.

What you're trying to classify as a lack of accessibility, is actually a lack of effort, desire, time, or any combination of them.  It is, in point of fact, a crafty attempt to blame the actual game for a lack of success.  While I suppose that's probably more comforting than reality, it's still not true.  Actual accessibility limitations as posted above... would prevent anyone/everyone from completing content.

Perhaps you'd have better success if you started asking how others do the things that you cannot, instead of trying to drag the game down to ALL easymode levels.

(( Given that your posts indicate you are clearly intelligent, the last statement seems like an attempt to circumvent the discussion by having a personal swipe at me as a person. This thread is not about "me" specifically anymore than it is about "you" specifically.

The debate is statistical in nature, not about individuals.

I believe, as I have said in many different ways now that I know you have understood, that as heroic leads to EM, that EM content should smoothly lead to HM content. Being geared up with most of the EM gear, for example, should be the main criteria for HM. It should not need significantly more than that, in my opinion. The challenge level, to use your term, needs to be set so that most players can and will get through it. And such that they actually succeed in doing so.

If most players are not getting through it, for whatever reasons, then SOE need to look at why that is and correct that problem. This is a game design issue.

Your answer is, "it is a player problem" and "they just need to learn to be more dedicated/play better, etc".

But I do not find that answer to be acceptable or appropriate. We are talking paying customers here, they can and should expect content to be aimed at them at the level of ability/knowlege/dedication/whatever you want to call it that gamers actually have, for a mass market game in 2012. The answer is not to magically just expect 99% of players to play like the other 1%, that will not happen. The answer is to balance the game to the 99%. Even if the 1% do not like it.

All your arguing about semantics and the meaning of "accessibility" is just that - semantics. The reality is, not enough players are getting through all hardmode content. It is being left to a very very tiny number, and to my mind, that is a waste of development time and effort.

Either said content needs to be designed so that a significant mass of the playerbase can (with progression) get through it, and actually do get through it, or that level of content just needs to be abolished as a waste of paying subscriber money. I would prefer the former, as more content for all the players is the better option ))

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Old 02-19-2012, 06:02 PM   #132
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:04 PM   #133
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I believe, as I have said in many different ways now that I know you have understood, that as heroic leads to EM, that EM content should smoothly lead to HM content. Being geared up with most of the EM gear, for example, should be the main criteria for HM. It should not need significantly more than that, in my opinion. The challenge level, to use your term, needs to be set so that most players can and will get through it. And such that they actually succeed in doing so.

(Emphasis mine)

Gear is not and can never be the solution to the challenges that some people face.  Gear cannot make people/players accomplished.

Gear progression will never teach tanks how to position mobs, time their temporary deathsaves, use the most effective taunting tool for the right circumstances, etc...

Gear progression cannot teach a healer how to pre-cure, where to stand, when to use their temp buffs/avoids/death prevents, who to rez first, etc...

Gear progression cannot ever teach a dps class how to put out the most damage without pulling agro, when to joust, what temp buffs to ask for and when, the timing of signets, miracles/blessings, how to use the /assist functionality, etc...

Gear progression can't ever teach a utility class what class (or player) to put what buffs on for a specific fight, when to hit their temps to maximize the group they're in, what AA spec is best to have in their mirror or on them for the content they're attempting, when to emergency stone-skin someone, the timing and who to AE avoid, powerfeed, blade dance, etc...

Gear progression cannot teach a raid leader to properly setup groups, understand how various classes (can) interact to maximize effectiveness, make someone login, click their cure potions for them, make someone pay attention to their surroundings who's busy in /tells, surfing the web, watching TV mid-fight, make people read big red letter text in the center of their screens and react, etc...

In short, the problem you've itentified is... in absolute terms, not a game problem.  Should your suggestions ever come to Norrath, they would have to make the content so overwhelmingly simplified that all of the above no longer matters.  Then the satisfaction that thousands and thousands of players who've killed HM content in DoV goes *poof*.

Your answer is, "it is a player problem" and "they just need to learn to be more dedicated/play better, etc".

But I do not find that answer to be acceptable or appropriate. We are talking paying customers here, they can and should expect content to be aimed at them at the level of ability/knowlege/dedication/whatever you want to call it that gamers actually have, for a mass market game in 2012. The answer is not to magically just expect 99% of players to play like the other 1%, that will not happen. The answer is to balance the game to the 99%. Even if the 1% do not like it.

It does not matter if you don't believe the above statements are appropriate or acceptable.  Paying customers already have access to all of the same content as everyone else does.  All toons are created equally.  All players/customers are not.

The answer is already clear to anyone looking... and that is that there is already tons of content available to every playstyle you could name. 

If someone wants to Tradeskill, there's tons of content for them.  If someone wants to solo, there's an insane amount of content for them.  If someone wants to group, there's tons of content for them.  If someone wants to raid x2's, they can (and probably kill plenty of EM x4 content too, for the record).  If someone wants to decorate, there's tons of houses and items for them to do so.  If someone wants to work the market, there are tons of items available for them to do so.  If someone wants to simply hang out and chat, there are tons of mechanisms for that.  If someone wants to roleplay, they can.  If someone wants to PvP... well, they kinda can (lol, sorry guys... I feel for ya.)

Challenge Mode raiding (not "my term", the GAME's term) is already the vast minority of content.  The zones are identical to Heroic and Easymode zones, the mob graphics are all duplicated, and the scripts are mostly the same with minor adjustments to buff packages, and scripts.  If you had killed this content, you would know that these differences are minor and there is not some massive amount of time/energy going into this content from a dev perspective.

The reality of dev time is simply this... not every aspect of the game will be embraced by the entire playerbase.  Those that are motivated to kill Challenge Mode raid content, are already working on it.  Those that aren't, can easily do so as long as they have the ability to login (and many guilds raid very little from a time committment standpoint) and the desire to maximize their contributions using all of the tools that everyone already has complete 100% access to getting/using.

Blaming gear or falsely claiming accessibility will not solve any of your concerns.  However, players can (and are already) solve those concerns on a daily basis.  So there you go.

That's it for me.  I've stated my perspective, along with others disagreeing with your wishes and opinions.  This will be my last response to you on this topic, unless you bring up something new that is patently false.  You're most welcome to the last word.  Take care, and good luck in Norrath.

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Old 02-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #134
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I completely disagree with Felishanna that "Challenge Mode" content should be changed to make skill, organization, and knowledge of game mechanics unimportant.  Furthermore, I actually think the progression from the end of easy mode (Tormax, Valdemar, Statue) into the easiest hard mode fights (Gunnr, Mikill, Iilatus) is very smooth in DoV.  You really should not have any trouble at all starting hard mode mobs if you have farmed Tormax and Statue a little bit.  However, some hard mode mobs (Modrfrost, Valdemar, Eirreen, maybe even Munderrad) made for bumps in that smooth progression, and I think that could be blamed on poor design, and it probably hurt the health of the game. 

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Old 02-19-2012, 07:34 PM   #135
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And another thing - what's up with content not being tuned at all on release?  That is pretty obnoxious.  I don't know if Tallon is intended to be roughly the same difficulty as Sullon, but, as I write this, that is currently the case on live servers.  However, Sullon was killed almost 3 months before Tallon simply because it was nerfed first.  Vallon currently has not been killed, since, at least prior to Friday's patch, it had not been not nerfed enough (yet).  Nerfs basically determine progression.  I thought progression was supposed to mean guilds getting better, but in EQ2 it means mobs getting easier.

That's not to say that nerfs aren't healthy (or expected) at times, but to seemingly make no effort at all to tune the content prior to release...that's just aggravating.

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Old 02-19-2012, 07:59 PM   #136
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Trynt wrote:

Gear is not and can never be the solution to the challenges that some people face.  Gear cannot make people/players accomplished. Gear progression will

(( Gear alone will not ever make a bad player into a good player. That is an obvious statement.

However, gear DOES make a massive difference, and there are some things noone can do without having at least a certain level of gear. That is equally obvious.

But trying to connect such obvious observations with propagating the current design approach for HM raids that in practice succeeds in excluding of 99% of the playerbase from content where all the best gear in game is, is illogical. They are not connected in the way you are trying to imply. Those obvious statements are true in all arenas of play.

Trynt wrote:

In short, the problem you've itentified is... in absolute terms, not a game problem. Should your suggestions ever come to Norrath, they would have to make the content so overwhelmingly simplified that all of the above no longer matters. Then the satisfaction that thousands and thousands of players who've killed HM content in DoV goes *poof*.

I disagree. I believe it *is* a game problem.

Blaming 99% of players for just not being dedicated enough is a 1970-1980s attitude. It is out of date and has to go. We need to be catering for the mass market of players and potential players, and making the game a long-term success, not catering to a few dinosaurs. Really, I am sorry, but the days for those kinds of arguments are long gone.

The difference is my solution is not going to be popular with those very tiny few who have been used to exclusive access to a significant swathe of content containing all the best gear. If content design is resulting in the mass of the playerbase being excluded, for whatever reason, then that design needs to be re-examined.

The fact that you can list players who have completed it in its current form is totally irrelevant to this argument, because again, this is a statistical debate, not a point about individuals. My point was, is and continues to be, that for every player who has completed hardmode raiding content, there remain a hundred more players who have not done so. Telling those players to "step up" is not going to happen. The content needs to be balanced to their needs, and that makes it a game issue.

Trynt wrote:

It does not matter if you don't believe the above statements are appropriate or acceptable. Paying customers already have access to all of the same content as everyone else does. All toons are created equally. All players/customers are not.

This is diametrically opposed to my position.

All customers are equal, and should be treated so, in terms of meeting their needs. Any game needs progression, or it can't survive over the long term, but making that progression open and inclusive to players of all playstyles is the way to go - writing content that IN PRACTICE only 1% of the playerbase are doing, is, in my opinion, not acceptable and a waste of time and money. The game design should support this in principle. If that makes some of the players in the 1% feel their achievements somehow went *poof*, as you put it, I would pay that price, in a heartbeat. ))

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Old 02-19-2012, 09:13 PM   #137
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

All customers are equal, and should be treated so, in terms of meeting their needs. Any game needs progression, or it can't survive over the long term, but making that progression open and inclusive to players of all playstyles is the way to go - writing content that IN PRACTICE only 1% of the playerbase are doing, is, in my opinion, not acceptable and a waste of time and money. The game design should support this in principle. If that makes some of the players in the 1% feel their achievements somehow went *poof*, as you put it, I would pay that price, in a heartbeat. ))

Shall I again quote how much of the game has become geared towards heroic/EM/solo players since apparently you missed it the first time around? I even missed Dungeon Maker in the list, which allows a player to obtain gear and items without even having to step foot in actual Norrath. They don't even play their own toon for that one!

1% of the playerbase is running a rehashed version of an easy mode zone with extra control effects, curses, and AEs thrown in for good measure. We aren't running entirely new, fresh zones with new, fresh mobs and we won't really be either as PoW has been out for months now with no one stepping a foot in and NTVO will be out without anyone stepping a foot in there for a while either. Basically, they're in front of the curve by 2....I guess to bring more mercs, easily accessible armor, more solo quests with the Qeynos revamp, and more easy mode heroic zones into the game.

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Old 02-19-2012, 10:01 PM   #138
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Just wanted to point out that a lot more than 1% of the playerbase is raiding hard mode content.  Based on the guildprogress numbers earlier in the thread and my guess of 50-100K people paying monthly for this game, the number is probably more like 7-14%.  Granted, only around 1% of players (if that) will clear all the hardest raid content while it's current, but hard mode content is used on a weekly basis by a lot more players than that.

Second, and maybe more importantly, no content in this game is used by 100% of the playerbase because not everyone enjoys the same things.  A relatively small number of people log on weekly to build dungeons or list their homes on the housing leaderboards, but that's not necessarily because the content is poorly designed or too exclusive. I don't follow decorating or dungeon building enough to even hazard a guess as to what percentage of the playerbase is using that content, but that's beside the point.  Most players who aren't participating in hard mode raiding simply prefer to spend their time doing other things.

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Old 02-19-2012, 10:39 PM   #139
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Blaming 99% of players for just not being dedicated enough is a 1970-1980s attitude. It is out of date and has to go.

This is a new patently false statement that requires addressing.  To start, I never stated that players who are not killing Challenge Mode content require more dediction.  I said, and I quote, "Those that aren't, can easily do so as long as they have the ability to login (and many guilds raid very little from a time committment standpoint) and the desire to maximize their contributions using all of the tools that everyone already has complete 100% access to getting/using."

That was a feeble attempt to focus on one facet of a point, pretend it was the only one, and then judge it.  Just like Challenge Mode raiding... I will not allow you to dumb down and oversimplify contentions.

Quabi's statement is also completely correct that no content in this game is used by everyone, because they enjoy different things. And as another person also repeated... HM raiding is a sliver of the available content.  If more people wish to succeed in that content, they absolutely can.  The need only cease blaming the game.

You may never believe that the current Challenge Mode content is "accessible" to anyone, but it is nevertheless.  Maybe if you try it sometime, you'll understand.

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Old 02-19-2012, 11:48 PM   #140
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

All customers are equal

In a world of utopian beliefs and paradise, all customers are equal.Unfortunately, reality is quite the opposite. Just ask any person who is not a US based subscriber if they have been treated equally by SOE.

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Old 02-19-2012, 11:49 PM   #141
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Just wanted to point out that a lot more than 1% of the playerbase is raiding hard mode content.  Based on the guildprogress numbers earlier in the thread and my guess of 50-100K people paying monthly for this game, the number is probably more like 7-14%.  Granted, only around 1% of players (if that) will clear all the hardest raid content while it's current, but hard mode content is used on a weekly basis by a lot more players than that.

Second, and maybe more importantly, no content in this game is used by 100% of the playerbase because not everyone enjoys the same things.  A relatively small number of people log on weekly to build dungeons or list their homes on the housing leaderboards, but that's not necessarily because the content is poorly designed or too exclusive. I don't follow decorating or dungeon building enough to even hazard a guess as to what percentage of the playerbase is using that content, but that's beside the point.  Most players who aren't participating in hard mode raiding simply prefer to spend their time doing other things.

To take Quabi a step further, if people wanted to raid HM content....if ANYONE wanted to raid HM content...that content isn't at all inaccessible. There is no magic message that says "I'm sorry. You're a crafter. You can't do this zone." when you click on the door. Do they have to focus on different things in order to do it? Absolutely. But that 99% of the population isn't at all blocked from it. They choose not to participate in it.

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Old 02-20-2012, 12:07 AM   #142
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

writing content that IN PRACTICE only 1% of the playerbase are doing

It's always worth-while, of course, to ask why only 1% of the playerbase is doing that content.

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Old 02-20-2012, 12:10 AM   #143
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Just wanted to point out that a lot more than 1% of the playerbase is raiding hard mode content.  Based on the guildprogress numbers earlier in the thread and my guess of 50-100K people paying monthly for this game, the number is probably more like 7-14%.  Granted, only around 1% of players (if that) will clear all the hardest raid content while it's current, but hard mode content is used on a weekly basis by a lot more players than that.

Second, and maybe more importantly, no content in this game is used by 100% of the playerbase because not everyone enjoys the same things.  A relatively small number of people log on weekly to build dungeons or list their homes on the housing leaderboards, but that's not necessarily because the content is poorly designed or too exclusive. I don't follow decorating or dungeon building enough to even hazard a guess as to what percentage of the playerbase is using that content, but that's beside the point.  Most players who aren't participating in hard mode raiding simply prefer to spend their time doing other things.

To take Quabi a step further, if people wanted to raid HM content....if ANYONE wanted to raid HM content...that content isn't at all inaccessible. There is no magic message that says "I'm sorry. You're a crafter. You can't do this zone." when you click on the door. Do they have to focus on different things in order to do it? Absolutely. But that 99% of the population isn't at all blocked from it. They choose not to participate in it.

Another point to add, is what is a "normal" player.I have seen more than one occasion in this thread, where people either claim to be a "normal" player, or fancy themselves the voice of what "normal" players want.I am primarily a crafter. I run my daily TS quests, I do the odd group, occasional PQ, and every now and then I tag along on a raid, or join a pickup raid. I wonder what pigeon hole category those who fancy themselves the judge of what is (and is not) normal would place me in?I am someone who, much like Freejazzlive, is perfectly fine with content being in the game which is not catered specifically to the amount of effort I feel like investing at the current point in time. The raid content in EQ2 is there to be accessed by any who invest the effort. The rate of high end mobs dying is little more than a carefully controlled measure by SOE, the policy of which began after RoK.

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Old 02-20-2012, 12:28 AM   #144
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While this is mildly off-topic, in either this thread or another you mentioned something to the effect that most players have more than one level 90, if they've been playing for any significant length of time. I've been playing off & on since 2005, & I've never had a level 90 -- my current level 85 Troubie is the highest I've ever gotten. It took me close to 2 weeks to get from level 84 to level 85. I've never had a mythical weapon -- I've never even gotten access to VP, much less been there. I've never had more than 70 plat, at any one time, on any character.

I say all this because I'm even more "casual" than these fabled "normal" players, these "mere mortals" who apparently can't solve HM raids because of one thing or another -- wonky raid mechanics, raid size, gear discrepancies, I dunno, the list goes ever onward -- & yet I generally disagree with the idea of making HM content "more accessible" to players like myself. As I said many times on Rift forums, it's one thing to make the general overland first-level-to-cap game easy enough that even Aunt Molly can play -- that's the wave of the MMO genre, & I grumble about it, but it is what it is.

But I've no interest in seeing HM raids "toned down" or otherwise "made more accessible" in any way other than to fix wonky or otherwise buggy raid mechanics. I don't think they need to be easier, I don't think gear needs to be more accessible, I don't think the "gear gap" needs to be closed. I think that players need to set a goal, find out what it will take to get to that goal, & then do what it takes.

Or, don't, & deal with that. I've made my gaming choices; I'm happy. I don't speak for other "normal" players, & since I'm happy, I'd prefer they not think to speak for me.

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Old 02-20-2012, 06:46 AM   #145
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

This is diametrically opposed to my position.

All customers are equal, and should be treated so, in terms of meeting their needs. Any game needs progression, or it can't survive over the long term, but making that progression open and inclusive to players of all playstyles is the way to go - writing content that IN PRACTICE only 1% of the playerbase are doing, is, in my opinion, not acceptable and a waste of time and money. The game design should support this in principle. If that makes some of the players in the 1% feel their achievements somehow went *poof*, as you put it, I would pay that price, in a heartbeat. ))

Learn the strats, kick the fail players from raids and replace with those who can follow instructions. If there is nothing for players to work towards since all content can be cleared by a large % of the players then even more will get bored and quit. This would be sort of like what is happening in swtor where it was made too easy so the average scrub could get to L50 with little effort, then many players got bored and quit.

If SOE were to make the raids so easy that every casual can do HM zones it defeats the purpose of EM content, which would become wasted dev effort. If you want the gear then earn it by doing the content. I suspect the reason such a small % of players are raiding is due to loot rights and poorly skilled players purchasing gear that they could never earn on their own, often due to lack of skill playing the class.

It's very sad that some mercs are better than players but that's what happens when players do things like buying plat (or trading for SC, same thing really), then buying loot with that plat.

I love how you feel the need to insult raiders, it's quite funny coming from from some casual RP player who isn't good enough to ever be in that 1%. Maybe you should stick to RP or decorating and leave raiding to the real raiders. Maybe you'll be able to do those fights if the cap ever goes up to L100 and you can ignore most strats and DPS thru the fights.

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Old 02-20-2012, 07:06 AM   #146
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Freejazzlive wrote:

It's always worth-while, of course, to ask why only 1% of the playerbase is doing that content.

Because the other 99% of players are watching auction channel for loot rights.

Ok, I know 99% don't buy loot but in general the casuals in EQ2 (at least the group wanting raid gear without raiding for it) seem to be really lazy and seem more willing to do boring plat farming rather than spending probably a similar amount of time per week joining a raid guild and actually getting that gear without buying it. Of course removing loot rights causes issues with extra raiders sitting out on a fight not being able to loot, and the need to be present for the kill to loot would just lead to RoK style raid spots for sale as in the way myth updates were sold.

I think the whole EM/HM is lazy dev work though, I prefer the tiered system like RoK when it was current content.

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Old 02-20-2012, 08:49 AM   #147
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While eq2 isn't terribly hard to begin with.It is far more difficult than the MMOS of today.I'm pretty sick of people wanting endgame gear with little effort because they feel entitled becasue they pay a sub and can only play for an hour a day.

EQ2 is set apart from games like WoW,rift,swtor because its a tad more difficult and in design it isnt faceroll.Super sick of the casuals crying until they get the changes they want.Please, you are ruining the game and everyhting everquest stands for.Those on pvp servers cryed for instanced pvp until you got it.Now look at the massive world of norrath.It's dead.You keep getting content nerfed.Stop it.

Seriously, not even trying to be a troll.Go play wow or swtor or rift.Those games have EXACTLY the kind of gameplay you are after.Go give them a try.I think you would enjoy yourselves.And eq2 would stop getting WoWified.That is all.

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Old 02-20-2012, 08:59 AM   #148
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The posts in this thread relating to progress have totally failed to acknowledge the fact that most of the x4 encounters were bugged on release and some still are.  Progress in many cases has been such that once SOE fix the bug which was breaking a fight, that particular mob was then killed.  If these bugs hadn't existed, I believe many more people than the quoted "1%" would have seen a lot more of the content.

The guilds that have progressed the furthest are those that have persevered and found work arounds for many of the bugs and they certaainly deserve the rewards they've obtained for the effort they've put in.  How many guilds are now trying to work around the double casting bug which SOE claim to have fixed?  How many more would have progressed if not for this bug?

Instead of blaming the game for being too hard for the majority of people, I'd suggest you target the blame at SOE for releasing broken content and then not fixing it when it was pointed out to them. 

Many of the arguments about progression of content are fundamentally flawed becuse they are based on broken assumptions caused by broken content.

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Old 02-20-2012, 09:26 AM   #149
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I find it funny that there are so many that sems to think raids are only getting enjoyed but like 1% of the game. Just look at raid progression. There are so many guilds that have cleared all EM or atleast have tryed to work in them. Then you have all the raid alliances and all PU raids going on. Not to talk about slr giving players good loot that have the plat to buy it. And i know many causal players that raid old raid continent and are killing stuff and are happy with it. There are guilds that have killed up 9+ HM mobs atm that only raid 2 times per week.

The only thing and that is getting removed atm is the block of CM. With that removed more ppl will try out more HM:s and maybe kill a mob or two. Drunder HM still have bugs and might need some fixes but the rest is fine.

As for needing act on moderfrost. Well you dont. anyone can look at whos got what buff and simple use tell back cure or just call out i have it. its easier with act tho. The only raid encounter that need rewamping/removed is (cant rember the name but the running around in circle mob) Since that the only mob i dont enjoy. Even death touches most of the time have a casting bar now and can easy be spoted. So no dont make this game even worse pls. And stop talking about catering raiders when all we see atm is new houses dungeon maker new heroic instances and so on. The game needs all of it or it would die out.

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Old 02-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #150
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Netty wrote:

I find it funny that there are so many that sems to think raids are only getting enjoyed but like 1% of the game. Just look at raid progression. There are so many guilds that have cleared all EM or atleast have tryed to work in them. Then you have all the raid alliances and all PU raids going on. Not to talk about slr giving players good loot that have the plat to buy it. And i know many causal players that raid old raid continent and are killing stuff and are happy with it. There are guilds that have killed up 9+ HM mobs atm that only raid 2 times per week.

The only thing and that is getting removed atm is the block of CM. With that removed more ppl will try out more HM:s and maybe kill a mob or two. Drunder HM still have bugs and might need some fixes but the rest is fine.

As for needing act on moderfrost. Well you dont. anyone can look at whos got what buff and simple use tell back cure or just call out i have it. its easier with act tho. The only raid encounter that need rewamping/removed is (cant rember the name but the running around in circle mob) Since that the only mob i dont enjoy. Even death touches most of the time have a casting bar now and can easy be spoted. So no dont make this game even worse pls. And stop talking about catering raiders when all we see atm is new houses dungeon maker new heroic instances and so on. The game needs all of it or it would die out.

I laugh every time i read 1% of the population are raiding. Exactly right, look at guild progress and you'll see a lot of raiders plus PURs being formed all the time both in Dov and Drunder, both x2 and x4.

Trying to argue that with non raider crafter X, or Plushie addict Y, is pointless though, their little world does not seem to comprehend quite a lot of folks are actually doing that content rather than admiring a door and coming here to complain that the game is too hard and should be made even easier so they can kill mobs in crafting gear.

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