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Old 02-07-2012, 07:51 PM   #1
Bunji

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Hello Testers!

Changes to the Dungeon Maker Avatars are headed to test and we definitely want your feedback!

Please feel free to post bug reports and feedback in this thread, though remember that you can also /feedback and /bug.

As for the changes, our goal has been to improve the pace of play, remove reliance on auto-attack, add some strategic decision making, and, overall, make the avatar play experience a lot more fun. To that end, we've introduced a power-management mechanic to the avatars. In short, power will rapidly drain while out of combat. While in combat, each avatar has a quick-use, low-damage attack that also builds power. This will allow the use of various high-power, high-affect abilities once power has been built up. It's a pretty significant change and will almost certainly require some tweaks before going live so please be as detailed as possible in your feedback.

We'll try to keep this thread up to date with a list of known issues as they come to our attention.

Thanks for your help!

[2/17/2012 Update] Avatars are back to using the original power management system on the Test servers.

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:36 AM   #2
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It is very very odd ...

I was STUCK watching the Hotbar for avail attacks ...vs..watching the actual fight.   

Not sure I like having to Spam an attack for power....

Mobs were very diffcult to kill -vs- live ((did you buff up the mobs?))

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Old 02-08-2012, 11:39 AM   #3
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Wow. Avatars are completely unplayable like this. I agree with the sentiment that all you're doing is watching the hotbar instead of paying attention to the actual fight. This is not fun and really I don't even understand why it's being done--avatars were fine as they were. The pace of play is MUCH slower, there is almost no solo survivability and you still rely on auto-attack... prehaps more heavily.

The Sister Thog one has NO WAY of gaining power. The Drolvarg Scourge-Knight fighter has at least one attack that gives power but this change appears to have degraded the avatars so much that you're lucky to live through a standard 2 mob fight. I kept dying on fights that were no issue before in my dungeon on Test and finally gave up. After my original pull I didn't even attempt a 2 ^ mob fight that was difficult on some avatars before, but always had been doable, because I knew there was no chance I'd survive. That's a far cry from what avatars were before.

Other avatars:

  • Sister Katey can't even cast her buff.. or heals... in fact, she can't use anything without power. Not even going to bother trying to fight knowing she'll just die over and over and not kill a single thing.
  • The Tidesilph Defouler's buff only lasts 20 seconds? Why is it not until cancelled?
  • None of Sister Leela's abilities are usable without power.
  • None of Sister Aalarya's abiltiies are usable without power.

I took a couple of videos of each of the ones I did try (Sister Thog and Drolvarg Scourge-Knight), will post links to them once I upload them.

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Old 02-08-2012, 11:51 AM   #4
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Have to agree with everyone else, not a fan of this change.  The fact that the hotbar has become the number one focal point of every fight, taking my attention from the game and captivating it on a button to push, makes me not want to play DM again.  If this is the way its going to be, I guess its one more feature I wont be using.

The best part of EQ1 was being able to actually WATCH the combat and the game I was paying for, not stare at hotbars like every other game out there.  Isnt there a happy medium you guys can find here?

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Old 02-08-2012, 12:13 PM   #5
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This is a change for the worse.  I have 0 desire to even play dungeon maker now.  If you want to do something like this then do it like beastlords where you have a secondary power bar for stronger attacks.  They way you have it now is nothing but an excercise in futility.  If this goes though I for one will not play Dungeon maker anymore.  

TO recap:

  • Don't do it this way
  • Make a secondary bar like on beastlords to build up for more powerful attacks
  • Stop copying lousy mechanics from WoW
Nuff said.

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Old 02-08-2012, 12:21 PM   #6
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The entire idea of adventures in the DM dungeons was wrong from the start. You can tweak all you want. It aint going to help.

Here's the solution.

1. When players enter the DM dungeon they enter as their avatar (class and race.)

2. All players scale to 50.

3. Players are allowed to choose 5 of their regular spells (including buffs if they choose) to put on their hotbar.

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Old 02-08-2012, 12:58 PM   #7
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Cyliena wrote:

I took a couple of videos of each of the ones I did try (Sister Thog and Drolvarg Scourge-Knight), will post links to them once I upload them.

Here are the videos:

Sister Thog - It seems that all of the Erollisi avatars are bugged under this change, and this was a very frustrating fight due to it.

Drolvarg Scourge-Knight - This one I actually finished the fight but it was painfully slower than normal. Also I died shortly after to the two adds that swooped in (had stopped recording right as they joined in), but previously those adds would not have killed me without me downing at least one, if not both, of them.

My suggestions:1. Revert these changes and stop making certain abilities cost a vast amount of power. It wasn't broken as it is on Live currently. Or..2. Akin to Hirofortis' idea above, add a power-up bar ui piece and a fifth ability to each avatar. When the power-up bar is filled we can use that new fifth ability, which should be a potent one.

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:40 PM   #8
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Gravy wrote:

The entire idea of adventures in the DM dungeons was wrong from the start. You can tweak all you want. It aint going to help.

Here's the solution.

1. When players enter the DM dungeon they enter as their avatar (class and race.)

2. All players scale to 50.

3. Players are allowed to choose 5 of their regular spells (including buffs if they choose) to put on their hotbar.

I like this Idea...

-----------------------

And would agree the Way Avatars are on test = NO FUN = unplayable

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #9
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The avatars were one thing that, in my opinion, worked just fine in dungeons.  It was simple fun where you could focus on what was happening visually in combat.  You could play a variety of avatars and switch between the limited skills and strategies easily.

Rather than complicating up a clean combat idea, I'd say better to make combat more interesting by working on giving the dungeon designers more tools to make their dungeons interesting, such as linked encounters, non-aggro mobs (unless attacked), and even noncombat npcs for conversation, provisions, or even player quests.

I'll be very disappointed to see these changes that don't really change anything other than more twiddling buttons and watching more bars and icons.  The intent sounds well-meaning, but my opinion is there are far better ways to improve and expand the dungeon maker system.

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:53 PM   #10
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msgnomer wrote:

Rather than complicating up a clean combat idea, I'd say better to make combat more interesting by working on giving the dungeon designers more tools to make their dungeons interesting, such as linked encounters, non-aggro mobs (unless attacked), and even noncombat npcs for conversation, provisions, or even player quests.

These are all terrific suggestions that would actually make DM more fun and interesting.

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:54 PM   #11
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Wow deftinaly need some tweaking. 

I will do some more I depth testing later today but my initial impressions are not favorable. I do like the idea of extra attacks based on power however I agree that a system like the one beastlords use will be much better then this. Give some new attacks that you have to build up to using. 

I enjoy the avatar system and do not like playing as myself in dungeons so please do not go that route!!

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:59 PM   #12
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Cyliena wrote:

msgnomer wrote:

Rather than complicating up a clean combat idea, I'd say better to make combat more interesting by working on giving the dungeon designers more tools to make their dungeons interesting, such as linked encounters, non-aggro mobs (unless attacked), and even noncombat npcs for conversation, provisions, or even player quests.

These are all terrific suggestions that would actually make DM more fun and interesting.

=-)   Agree!! 100000%

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Old 02-08-2012, 03:02 PM   #13
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

Cyliena wrote:

msgnomer wrote:

Rather than complicating up a clean combat idea, I'd say better to make combat more interesting by working on giving the dungeon designers more tools to make their dungeons interesting, such as linked encounters, non-aggro mobs (unless attacked), and even noncombat npcs for conversation, provisions, or even player quests.

These are all terrific suggestions that would actually make DM more fun and interesting.

=-)   Agree!! 100000%

This. This. This. This. This. One of the problems I had with dungeon building was getting actual story or purpose out, But these could go a long way in nearly infinite ways.

If you want to make the avatars more interesting, Give each archetype different playstyles. If you want some to use the new power thats fine, Have some use the current power, Have some use the beastlord. Heck get creative with a Monk type that uses blitzes the player has to discover in the word by opening a special heroic op and inputing 6 buttons in a certain order and then closing the op!

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Old 02-08-2012, 03:42 PM   #14
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After trying this out, if it is put on live like this you might as well dump Dungeon maker altogether.

It does pretty much the opposite of what you want it to do. It drastically slows down the pace of play (not fun), it is not decreasing your reliance on auto attack, and does not provide any strategic decision making at all. You have to hit whichever button you happen to have power for or just straight auto attack. No thought to it at all. All in all it just generally makes it really unfun to run dungeons.

What this change does is completely gut a system that wasn't broken to begin with. The system in place on live could be more lively, mostly that is due to the limited ability the dungeon makers have designing their dungeons (that got a little better since the maker was introduced, I hope it will continue to do so) and the lack of variety of abilities.

There definately needs to be more added to the maker side of the Dungeon maker. Give people more ability to control what happens in their dungeons.

Everyone who plays EQ2 is used to having at least 2 hotbars worth of abilities at their disposal, being limited to 4-5 + auto attack feels wrong. I'm not saying all the avatars need full spell books, that would be far too complicated, but a couple more powerful abilities would no go amiss at all.

If you really must have more 'involved' play, give the avatars something equivalent to Herioc Opportunities. Hit a couple of abilities in a certain timeframe and you get a special more powerful effect you can use if you wish.

The mechanic you have introduced on test currently will never be fun on anything that has only a very few abilities to begin with. All it will do is drive the people who do actually use the dungeon maker away and will not bring in anyone else.

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:27 PM   #15
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Cyliena wrote:

Other avatars:

  • Sister Katey can't even cast her buff.. or heals... in fact, she can't use anything without power. Not even going to bother trying to fight knowing she'll just die over and over and not kill a single thing.
  • The Tidesilph Defouler's buff only lasts 20 seconds? Why is it not until cancelled?
  • None of Sister Leela's abilities are usable without power.
  • None of Sister Aalarya's abiltiies are usable without power.

I took a couple of videos of each of the ones I did try (Sister Thog and Drolvarg Scourge-Knight), will post links to them once I upload them.

Apologies, we should have called out that the Sisters adventurers were NOT changed to this new system yet, so that we had some "original style" adventurers that people could use to compare to the new version.  The changes Bunji described should apply to all the adventurers EXCEPT the Erollisi Sisters at this time.

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:27 PM   #16
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Sounds like they're trying to make them work like two classes in WoW... warrior and death knight.

And personally.. I think those two are annoying at lower levels when they have few abilities to generate resources with.

Sounds like i'm gonna hate how they changed these... and I liked mucking with the dungeon maker before SMILEY

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:27 PM   #17
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Hi folks!

Thanks for your feedback, this is exactly why we put stuff like this on test before putting it out live. Based on your feedback, instead of changing the gameplay of existing adventurers, we're going to introduce a few new avatars based around this style of mana management. This way if you want to experiment with something different the option is there, but you can continue playing with DM in the manner that you're used to.

Thanks again for the feedback!

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:41 PM   #18
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DominoDev wrote:

Apologies, we should have called out that the Sisters adventurers were NOT changed to this new system yet, so that we had some "original style" adventurers that people could use to compare to the new version.  The changes Bunji described should apply to all the adventurers EXCEPT the Erollisi Sisters at this time.

That's fine, but in that case they shouldn't start with 0 power, right?

Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Hi folks!

Thanks for your feedback, this is exactly why we put stuff like this on test before putting it out live. Based on your feedback, instead of changing the gameplay of existing adventurers, we're going to introduce a few new avatars based around this style of mana management. This way if you want to experiment with something different the option is there, but you can continue playing with DM in the manner that you're used to.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Thank you, and I hope like I just said for the Erollisi ones, please ensure that the ones staying normal will not start at 0 power please and behave as they used to. My video of Sister Thog above shows how useless that avatar currently is because she starts with no power.

I wouldn't mind some new avatars using this system, as long as the system sees some tweaks to make it so we're not constantly staring at our hotbar drooling on ourselves and that we can survive fights. Will we have a way to test these out?

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:52 PM   #19
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I got an idea to make it really fun,

Let me use my OWN character inside!

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:54 PM   #20
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The problem isn't necessarily the concept, but the application.

The reason it works for beastlords is because everything they do generates savagery. Some generates more, but they don't have to glue themselves to the bar to play.

Also, the beastlord abilities are very powerful when they can be used, and frankly.. none of the dungeon maker avatars have ANY powerful abilities. They're all terrible.

People weren't just solely using auto attack because it was easy. They were doing that because the abilities are poorly concieved and underwhelming.

Solution: Crank everything up. Give things more damage, more hp, and make the abilities do more. Make heals actually heal and power regen actually regen. If you want to tie some savagery-type mana generation mechanic into it, fine, but the abilities have to be beefed up.

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Old 02-08-2012, 06:45 PM   #21
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I dont understand looking at changes that make it LESS like playing EQ2.. people responded with delight to the idea of playing their own characters because that makes it MORE like playing EQ2. People want to play EQ2 not a game with a different gameplay mechanism.

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Old 02-08-2012, 07:02 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

I dont understand looking at changes that make it LESS like playing EQ2.. people responded with delight to the idea of playing their own characters because that makes it MORE like playing EQ2. People want to play EQ2 not a game with a different gameplay mechanism.

^^This

Yes, this is the ONLY way I am stepping foot in another dungeon maker.  I don't care about your little avatars, they do nothing for my main character.    

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Old 02-08-2012, 07:16 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I dont understand looking at changes that make it LESS like playing EQ2.. people responded with delight to the idea of playing their own characters because that makes it MORE like playing EQ2. People want to play EQ2 not a game with a different gameplay mechanism.

^^This

Yes, this is the ONLY way I am stepping foot in another dungeon maker.  I don't care about your little avatars, they do nothing for my main character.    

Actually you get xp and aa for your mains by doing these plus you get tokens that an be used for items for your mains.  This being said, It has been my experience that the vitality drain you get on your main is completly out of proportion with what you would get just going out and normal grinding.  All in all, the xp you get back for your mains is out of proportion with doing normal dungfeons on your main.  

My take right now is unless you want something from the marketplace that requires dungeon marks, they are not really worth it.  Now with some tweaks, DUngeon Maker stuff can actually be fun.  But right now all I have seen them be is a grind fest for tokens.

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Old 02-09-2012, 04:10 AM   #24
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Amazingly you have somehow managed to make the dungeon creator even less entertaining, something which I thought was impossible. 

I have to come to the conclusion that this "feature" really must be someone's pet project at SOE, either that or something SOE want to force down our throats as much as possible to enable them to get away without actually making proper content. The dungeon maker is always going to be awful, it's way to limited to be anything more than a decorating tool. Unless players have the ability to create unique dungeons themselves with custom graphics/mobs/scripts/quests etc then you are wasting your time.

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Old 02-09-2012, 06:45 AM   #25
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I didn't get a chance to test this much yet, but it did seem make things even slower than before. Which isn't my idea of fun.

msgnomer wrote:

Rather than complicating up a clean combat idea, I'd say better to make combat more interesting by working on giving the dungeon designers more tools to make their dungeons interesting, such as linked encounters, non-aggro mobs (unless attacked), and even noncombat npcs for conversation, provisions, or even player quests.

This.

Dungeon maker isn't boring because of the combat...it's boring because there's not enough variation. Add linked encounters, more patrol points, more animations and such. Non-aggro mobs defaulting to cower animation, so we can try to guilt players into not attacking prisoners and such. SMILEY

More scripts in general.

Boss spawner drop rate needs to be cranked up too - or made tradeable instead of heirlooms. It's so boring to see the same bosses in every dungeon.

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Old 02-09-2012, 12:57 PM   #26
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Hi folks!

Thanks for your feedback, this is exactly why we put stuff like this on test before putting it out live. Based on your feedback, instead of changing the gameplay of existing adventurers, we're going to introduce a few new avatars based around this style of mana management. This way if you want to experiment with something different the option is there, but you can continue playing with DM in the manner that you're used to.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Thank you!!! I know some people do not like the avatars but I really like playing them. I like the idea of keeping the existing avatars as they are and adding news ones too..

Slightly off topic but the comments about dungeon mark grinds got me thinking. Can we have some other rewards for doing dungeons? Level based coin reward, status, city tokens etc.. Or even a way to exchange the dungeon marks for other currency may encourage more people to have fun in the DM. Allowing the mobs to drop random sellable loot and maybe event items, like candy & notes for E-day?

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Old 02-09-2012, 01:54 PM   #27
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If I'm not playing one of my own characters, I have no interest in DM. I have little interest even if I can play my own characters.

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Old 02-09-2012, 02:16 PM   #28
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Hi folks!

Thanks for your feedback, this is exactly why we put stuff like this on test before putting it out live. Based on your feedback, instead of changing the gameplay of existing adventurers, we're going to introduce a few new avatars based around this style of mana management. This way if you want to experiment with something different the option is there, but you can continue playing with DM in the manner that you're used to.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Why would you continue to throw money, time and resources to a mechanic that is, so far, universally disliked by everyone who has tried it?  It seems like these things could be better spent on improving the mechanics / avatars already in use or deveolping something else that the playerbase might use. 

Why continue to develop a set of Avatars that will not be used, simply adding one more thing that has to be maintained over time that sees no use?

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Old 02-09-2012, 02:31 PM   #29
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IMO, while you can make "avatar play" less irritatingly loathesome than it currently is, you can't do anything to make it actually "fun."

Just get with giving us our own characters back, already. DM is worthless to me until that happens.

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Old 02-09-2012, 02:34 PM   #30
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

People weren't just solely using auto attack because it was easy. They were doing that because the abilities are poorly concieved and underwhelming.

Solution: Crank everything up. Give things more damage, more hp, and make the abilities do more. Make heals actually heal and power regen actually regen. If you want to tie some savagery-type mana generation mechanic into it, fine, but the abilities have to be beefed up.

^^^ Personally as an the genie mage. I felt I was semi powerful but I spent a lot of time sitting around waiting on spells to refresh. I could spam only one and cast the others when they refreshed.

Avatars become interesting with varied mechanics or specialties. The four spells are find for now. But each avatars "specialty" should be a little more pronounced.

Recommendaton 1: I recommend for the current style avatars lessen their current recast timers and add some more spells.

Recommendation 2: The double dm token event, I think, was good event. An occasionaly double dm token or double dm xp will get people to try the feature even if apprenhensive, due to special reward circumstances. Oh and additional dungeon maker loots are always fun.

(small aside)i.e. Exceptional repair kits are EXEMPLARY reward for dungen finder tokens. Half way through drunder, some ones like I'm broken anyone got a bot? No, but you have dm tokens... buy one of them repair kits.. ding problem solved.

===This second part is my idea for group synergy to encourage players to pull friends in with them. ====

Each avatars additional specialty spells should reward group play. Because the dungeon will scale in difficulty, add some more syngery between class types as reward for grouping in dungeon maker.

i.e. genie mage by himself can nuke, aoe root with nuke, self buff power, and aoe nuke. additional spell, could be "Fire power- group buff cast until canceled" if(tank/scout) add chance to melee small fire proc if (mage/priest) on harmful spell cast add chance for small spell fire proc.

i.e. one scout avatar could add accuracy, another could have a group poison proc buff, another group slow proc. maybe a healer with the same slow proc. Some bard scouts, have a subset of this ability but should be expanded to all avatars perhaps.

In the end, each avatar with a unique group buff reinforces grouping /group synergies. It would be up to the players to form their own group with best synergies.

And while avatars are rotated... so are the synergies.. (which are really just group, until cancelled, buffs).  Just have to monitor the effect of difficulty scaling to multi-buff scaling and adjust accordingly.

What do you all think?

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