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Old 11-08-2015, 12:18 AM   #1
Chrol

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Hello everyone,

We've read through a multitude of feedback from "squishies" regarding the difficulty of the Advanced Solo dungeons for those classes (mages and scouts) and felt a change was needed. That change is the reduction of DPS and Potency for every NPC in every Terrors of Thalumbra Advanced Solo.

However, this is not a blanket reduction for all classes as fighters and priests are already at an advantage when it comes to mitigation and healing. We've implemented a system which will only reduce an NPCs DPS and Potency if there are no fighter or priest players in the zone. (Mercenaries do not apply.) For example, if you're an illusionist and enter Maldura: District of Ash [Advanced Solo], all NPC DPS and Potency will be reduced. If your group-mate who's an assassin enters with you, the NPCs will keep their same stat reduction. If your group-mate is a paladin, then all NPCs will have their stats brought back to default.

This change will hopefully reach beta with tomorrow's update, and we encourage those mages and scouts who've had difficulty with these Advanced Solos up to now to revisit them and provide feedback. Mages and scouts are half the classes in EverQuest 2, and we want to make sure you all have just as much enjoyment with this new content as everyone else.

Thanks all, and good luck!

-Chrol
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Old 11-08-2015, 12:52 AM   #2
Alphonsus

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Will give it a shot. I was unable to clear the signature line on a Wizard or Illusionist using only a merc. Tried several different ones and they could not keep me up. Had to use a real player for a few of the zones. I mean if the healer mercs just put out some decent HPS and didn't go down in 2 hits then you wouldn't have to make all these changes to the mobs.
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Old 11-08-2015, 01:17 AM   #3
Anaogi

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I'll give it a look. Because otherwise this xpac will be even more insufferable than the last one.
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Old 11-08-2015, 01:37 AM   #4
Tabri

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Well for the mages that are capable of one shotting just about everything already I guess this does not apply. Cool thanks now no worries of getting hit also.
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Old 11-08-2015, 01:38 AM   #5
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I'm not a fan of having two tiers depending on class for AS. I assume other options were discussed?

I know all tank classes don't heal alike and the same is for healers. Some tanks and some healers can currently pull all trash in a room with the name in all the AS zones while some tanks/healers will struggle with dps and heals.

I'm just not sure balancing around good players (tanks/healers) is the way to go. I say better to hit the zones with the nerf bat and just accept some players will always blow through your content.

I still have to do the sig line on my dirge and necro but I doubt I will have much of a problem. A scout with a 20s can't kill me buff and a mage with lots of heals and crowd control.

Class balancing never ended well for PvP and trying it for PvE solos seems wrong too.
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Old 11-08-2015, 02:58 AM   #6
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't a lot of this stem from the mercenaries being really under- powered in ToT? I haven't had any issues in the solos as a Dirge (in ToT quested gear) but i have noticed that the mercs die ALL the time. I've mostly used the new Glaufaye which i understand isn't a true healer merc, but it's survival has been pretty bad in a lot the zones. I haven't been able to test the better healer mercs because i had to make a new toon on beta.

Having 2 different buff packages for different classes just sounds like a bad and unnecessary "workaround" solution. I would think these zones could be designed in a way where they posed a nice challenge for all classes + merc of choice.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:58 AM   #7
Anaogi

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Postscript: Was able to do the later zones for the Sig Quest without undue swearing and consumption of alcohol. Are there significant differences involved for everything past the kobolds, or did a change go in?
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:05 PM   #8
duckster

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Main issue is the mercs being destroyed by mobs in these zones . I know the tradeskill sig line buffs the mercs capabilities but this shouldnt be a pre-req for doing advanced solos.

If anything the buff packages should be different if there are two characters doing the zone and even then im not a fan of it. Fix the mercs to withstand the hits from the zones and keep package same for everyone is my 2cp.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:06 PM   #9
Kirakesh

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I haven't tried this yet with my husband but looking forward to it. We played eq for a long time before switching to eq2 shortly after it's launch. He was tired of playing a healer and me a tank in eq so eq2 he choose Troub and I choose Coercer and we have had many fun years but last bit of xpacs and content we have not been able to group together for zones. Which had us considering if we want to renew our subs middle of next year. If this allows us to do zones together again I will be so happy and will be thrilled to resub when the time comes.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:13 PM   #10
Xianthia

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I am thankful for this change as well as looking forward to trying this out. Gives me hope in that I'll be successful on characters when expac goes live!
SmileSmile
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:13 PM   #11
Laiina

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I disagree with this.

My conjurer for example can burn down Black Bolt before he even has a chance to port. My Inquisitor on the other hand - with about 1/8th the dps - has to follow him through as many as 6 ports, meanwhile trying not to get kicked back all over the place.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:41 PM   #12
Foretold

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This is an interesting way of dealing with this issue. I will definitely try the AS zones again. I can't begin to tell you how frustrating a few of these zones are. I'm tired of pulling out a bot to complete an AS zone Tongue

I do think beefing up the mercs, esp the healer mercs, would have been a good option. If my merc would just not be a 100% aggro magnet, even on passive, he might live long enough to heal me.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:50 PM   #13
Elowith

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This is wonderful news if it works. I can breeze through the solos on my warden (a rare event), and even my conjuror (assuming my pet keeps aggro), but my illusionist, dependent on merc heals, dies frustratingly often.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:55 PM   #14
ZUES

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I agree that healer merc changes would have fixed all of this. Just increase their spells and stats. We will give you honest feedback if it needs a nerf.
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Old 11-08-2015, 05:04 PM   #15
Anaogi

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Ditto on the call for merc changes. I could have done the earlier (in the sig quest) zones if the mercs didn't melt or could at least keep up with heals. As it stands they're all but irrelevant to the ToT content beyond the underland content. (Still can't bring myself to call it "overland".)
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:33 PM   #16
Sejreia

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"This change will hopefully reach beta with tomorrow's update, and we encourage those mages and scouts who've had difficulty with these Advanced Solos up to now to revisit them and provide feedback. Mages and scouts are half the classes in EverQuest 2, and we want to make sure you all have just as much enjoyment with this new content as everyone else.

Thanks all, and good luck!

-Chrol
Chrol, Saturday at 7:18 PM "


Revisited and Feedback, as requested.
Underdepths Saga: Zaphardt's Defenders
Had done this 6 times with 2 times completing all named kills on my Ranger. So I had gotten well versed on the fights and the struggle. I had finished the sig line on her so I tried it again on my Wizzy.
There was no way I could complete it before on her, though I had went through the entire Maldura and Thalumbra quest lines up to this point (discovered that the 11th Maldura quest came from here now, "Defensive Measures," even! I think this was an excellent idea, Thank you!) and had all ToT gear possible for her.
Upon the revisit, I have to say, It was still a very fine challenge and I still had to give it all I had. I completed it with my tank merc dying only once to multiples and then again at the end of the Black Bolt fight. I went into the red then and was fully happy to accept a retry if I couldn't muster up the kill before dying. That's because I knew it wasn't impossible. I didn't end up having to do it again, though.
The only problem was I was so elated that I didn't talk to the megaphone, I ended up talking to Eccles out in Maldura o_O So, I had to go back in to finish up properly. I'm happy to report, I found all plans, all coils at the right step in the quest, and received all information for making the Sentry Shock Box XII's. If you'd like my opinion, I think the zone is absolutely perfect, very exciting and perfectly entertaining now. Thank you for these changes! Now I know it is possible to do on the only Adv lvl 100 I have on live!
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:08 AM   #17
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Revisited both District of Ash and Algorithm for Destruction Adv Solos tonight. Must say it was considerably less painful, only died once (injudicious pull). Whether this is because of improved gear, the buff to my merc from the TS quest line Relic, or changes to the zone is difficult to say, but it's doable now to someone in quested + some AS dropped gear with much less investment in time and blood pressure.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:09 AM   #18
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i think thats incredibly unfair to tanks and priests who do significantly less damage then (most) mages and scouts.

now with not having to worry about getting killed they can just rush through the instances oneshotting the nameds...
(some already could do that before the change because this has nothing to do with archetypes but having 24 different classes)

if you change the incoming damage for scouts and mages change the max hp of the mobs for fighters and priests...
changing the instances depending on archetypes is the worst thing i have ever heard...
there have always been better and worse (faster/slower) soloing classes and the difference in "soloability" is as big between classes of the same archetype as between different archetypes.
this kind of fix is probably the worst of many bad game design decisions i have seen made in this game. it is also opening a door that should really stay closed.

make a non-"advanced" version of instances needed in the sig line if you feel its to hard and slightly tune down the damage in the "advanced" instances.

why should suddenly every class be able to solo the same? this has never been the case and every archetype has classes who solo exeptionally well and others who have a harder time.
the reason there are classes is to be different ... not the same
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:24 PM   #19
Sejreia

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This hasn't been any where near a cakewalk for me. Neither do I one-shot anything. The problem was staying alive long enough to enjoy or not dying 20 times before enjoying one modicum of the instances (Yes! Of coarse while using the "tools" noted above to stay alive!). Yet I didn't complain, I just kept trying, undaunted. I had to take breaks while I so wished I could just get through it to just test whether something other than the fights might have a bug somewhere that I could help with so this can go live and people can have fun, because I've come to really love this game. Trust me, those people out there who haven't Beta'd but do purchase the content will appreciate having some kind of fun and not sit in a dungeon for two hours trying to figure out how to get past the first boss.
I've played a tank many times through the years. I will tell you the most enjoyment I had playing one or even watching another tank was the art of holding aggression from mobs and staying up no matter how long it took to kill. This Dps competition/****** check has killed many games for people in a multitude of ways. For example, I saw some people lamenting the fact that they don't get to experience the art of great pulling anymore. Where does anyone think things fun like that went? But, if the time is uncomfortable, yes, suppose reducing hp for those who do less damage would only be fair.
I will say I am new to this game and have completely enjoyed it because of the community and how close they seem to be with developers; working together. Most communities out there these days are completely intolerable. I will warn against beginning this language you guys seem to be starting with phrases like; "bad game design" and "the worst..." coming from someone sitting in their chair at home playing and using a medium for entertainment, only. Constructive criticism is good and necessary for any artist to grow and develop. However, negative feedback helps no one. Put your argument out there with some tact and good information that people can understand.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:38 PM   #20
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The bottom line is pretty simple really:

Any content labeled "solo" should be doable by an average player of any class in the game, without a merc to assist them.

If that means tuning down various zones, so be it. That's the price you pay for creating "solo" content. If a quest or quest line is intended to be doable by a single player, then any zones / fights / tasks involved must follow the same rules.

Mercs shouldn't even enter the picture here, unless DBG intends to make them available to all players for free.

Perhaps the concept of "advanced solo" is where mercs should fit in. The question is whether or not you create important quests with the tag of "advanced solo". If you do, then you have to be ready for the loud chorus of "Pay to win!" that you are sure to hear. I'm not saying it's the wrong answer, only that you need to be ready for it.

In any event, it seems simple to me. If a quest line or zone is intended to be done by one player, it should be marked as solo and any average player should be able to do it without assistance. It will mean that certain classes will have a much, much easier time of it. That's the price you pay for diversity.
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Old 11-10-2015, 03:13 PM   #21
Kuulei

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Solo is content made for solo players. (note currently in AoM solo you can be level 95 to enter)
Advanced solo is content for those with better gear and / or ablities (currently in AoM you must be 98 to enter)
Previous content with Advance Solo also includes CoE and ToV expansions.
In each of the above play-style solo dungeons, they were difficult in the beginning for many classes and players with less experience / gear. They are also made so that you can duo them with another player or a mercenary.
I recall many times asked to come heal or help in an Advance Solo at the beginning and height of CoE expansion. They are ADVANCED Solo zones. Those that are more advanced in gear and abilities will be able to complete with few difficulties. I can complete them on my warden solo (she was purple geared to start with) but on my illusionist I had to get help on a fight or two which was perfectly fine for me to ask for help from another player, until I get more proficient and better gear.
One thing I noticed, the better the gear I got from the overland Thalumbra quest-line, the better I did. It may be that the overland quest series would be more optimal for players to complete first than attempting to get the signature line done first, so that they are better geared to complete the advanced solos.
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Old 11-10-2015, 03:27 PM   #22
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I will test today when the authentication servers believe in me again, both on my raid conjy and on my made-from-scratch-on-Beta conjy.

I'm a raid-geared conjy, which means I had a scout pet and a healer merc. I had no problems with the advanced solos. I *did* most certainly have to pay attention, because there are, in essence, scripts. You can't just go in and burn everything down like you were a bazooka.

I've seen lots of people in chat suggesting that they just do a straight burn on, say Cudgava. But if you have Cudgava in the Forge of Brell, killing the smiths first breaks her armor piece by piece and then she's easy to kill. If she's in the Quarry, you run her under the crushers. Until I figured some of these things out, I died. I had to try some things three times before I got them figured out... except Stonerend, who took me about 12 tries.

I don't think everybody is paying attention to the many clues from the zones and the mobs themselves for the defeat of these names.
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Old 11-10-2015, 04:11 PM   #23
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before this I had little if any problems on my conjuror with Kenny merc on any trash. on some nameds I had to use the tank pet just so I could dps and not only heal. a few nameds I went through a pet or two but from eq1 I learned to chain cast pets.

the ts relic made Kenny's survival not so problematic but the issue was his weak 300k heal vs my 800k to 1.2mil one. if he didn't get hit he was fine.BigGrin

on my wizard the trash was the same as being not so bad as long as I had only one group, used aoe root and burned those on me first. the only issue I had with the nameds were the UNROOTABLE ones. getting hit for 350k for any one is death with a weak healing merc. and yes I died on the first named i couldn't root nor SNARE. I simply couldn't kill it. there is no ONE SHOTTING the nameds. trash maybe but if you can't kill what drops the loot then one shotting trash is really pointless.

the issue I see is the mercs inability to take a couple hits and their low healing, dps, mit and etc.they didn't get a upgrade but we as player got a rather significant one. the new mobs were made to take into account our gear upgrades. the mercs remained the same and were left behind.

the ts relic isn't a solution either as I have them on both the conj and wiz. it didn't make any difference when the mercs started getting hit by the nameds. I could see some improvement with the trash but only slight.

the solution is in the mercs. either they need to get a adv solo boister or we need to have new mercs available. such new mercs should only be from the tot expansion, have a increase in stats comparable to what we got and only be available to level 100 toons.

as far as changes being made only to scouts and mages I think this only circumvents the merc issue. you see tanks and healers also use mercs.

for a temporary solution this close to launch what is being done might be fine. however, most bandaid fixes usually become permanent. something needs to be done as with new gear to mob increases only means the old mercs will be left further behind and unusable as in the now and future.
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:04 PM   #24
Sigrdrifa

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I use Raffik as my healer, and I have him set so he does not try to protect me or himself. ALL he does is heal. He keeps me up Just Fine.
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:18 PM   #25
Foretold

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I tried Raffik. He got aggro immediately (set just like you - on passive) and no amount of nuking would turn the mob's attention toward me for more than a few seconds - and believe me, I can nuke. So Raffik dies, I dies :S

When I do manage to peel aggro off him, he does an acceptable job of healing. Much better than Kluron so far.
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Old 11-10-2015, 08:11 PM   #26
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What happened to the "solo" versions of the zones like the ones that are in AoM? The mobs in those were a couple levels lower. That's honestly a better solution if their is room in the itemization scheme. The proposed change just seems like a really bad precedent to set. Also in my opinion, even the advanced solos should not be a cakewalk on the first day of the expac. They should be a challenge that gets easier as you improve your character's stats and gear through the intended progression. It's the responsibility of the devs to create obtainable progression at all levels of gameplay, not to manipulate mechanics for specific classes. Lastly, players have a lot of tools at their disposal to prepare characters for different situations. For example on my dirge and most other non-healer classes, there are AAs that can greatly improve survivability, not to mention crafted armor and cure/ heal potions that are available to anyone. On the flipside i know that to run the solos effectively on my guardian i will need to set him up to do more dps. There are plenty of options currently available to make these adjustments without implementing this proposed change. The devs mentioned that this expansion would challenge and trust players more to "figure things out". This change would seem to fly directly in the face of that premise.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:43 AM   #27
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Odd. I use Kluron, (spelling?), on my swash. Set to passive, and he usually does a fine job healing. I've noticed there are a few bosses that have a thing for healers, which forces me to dig into my bag of tricks to keep my merc alive, while on my Mystic, I just ward through the damage, while my dps merc pounds on them regardless.
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Old 11-11-2015, 04:44 PM   #28
Tabri

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In AOM there was a solo version of the zones which I took my warden through because I hate doing quests on her anyway but wanted the mount, then there were Advanced solo zones for which I took my conjurer through easily and had fun with. I normally take my conjurer through tougher obstacles first before I try with my warden.

In this case I would have done the same if there were two versions of the zones warden through solo if needed or warden not even through either if not needed, and conjurer through advanced version regardless if needed or not needed just cause Smile

Solo zone- for the either less skilled or lesser geared player(lesser rewards)
Advanced solo zone- for the more skilled and/or better geared player(better rewards).

Makes sense dont ya think? Now you are making the advanced solo zones way to easy for a lot of us due to people that are either not geared well enough or not skilled or both to complete them.
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