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Old 10-27-2012, 09:31 PM   #1
Kelmarrin

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OK, its probably been said dozens of times, but Sony, WHEN are you going to fix the commissioning system?

My tradeskill spec allows me a 5% chance to save the components of the combine.  My earring adds 1% more.  But when the item is commissioned, THEY get to keep the components, and I have to hope they give them to me?

I am not expecting no-trade items to come to me, I understand that.  But tradeable items should end up in MY inventory, not theirs, since its my AA spec saving the items.

Cmon man.....

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Old 10-27-2012, 09:58 PM   #2
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I dont get the complaint.  Are you complaining that they supply the mats, you get the roll, and they keep their mats, but you want it to be so that you get the mats instead of them?  It doesnt sound broken to me.  It just sounds like you want to keep the mats they supply.  That isnt something that needs fixing.  A fix implies something is broken, and nothing is broken from what is described. 

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Old 10-28-2012, 03:59 AM   #3
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I dont get the complaint.  Are you complaining that they supply the mats, you get the roll, and they keep their mats, but you want it to be so that you get the mats instead of them?  It doesnt sound broken to me.  It just sounds like you want to keep the mats they supply.  That isnt something that needs fixing.  A fix implies something is broken, and nothing is broken from what is described. 

The person with the aa should be getting the bonus out of it not the customer. the customer pays for the item made and can get their moneys worth of mats back without ever having to spend the AA point. Op have you tried clicking the checkbox (crafter gets side materials?) and see when it rolls if you get the bonus materials or not?

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Old 10-28-2012, 05:22 AM   #4
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General_Info wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I dont get the complaint.  Are you complaining that they supply the mats, you get the roll, and they keep their mats, but you want it to be so that you get the mats instead of them?  It doesnt sound broken to me.  It just sounds like you want to keep the mats they supply.  That isnt something that needs fixing.  A fix implies something is broken, and nothing is broken from what is described. 

The person with the aa should be getting the bonus out of it not the customer. the customer pays for the item made and can get their moneys worth of mats back without ever having to spend the AA point. Op have you tried clicking the checkbox (crafter gets side materials?) and see when it rolls if you get the bonus materials or not?

Checking that box doesn't change things. The materials are not considered a by-product.. they're simply not consumed.

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Old 10-28-2012, 08:29 AM   #5
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Mermut wrote:

General_Info wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I dont get the complaint.  Are you complaining that they supply the mats, you get the roll, and they keep their mats, but you want it to be so that you get the mats instead of them?  It doesnt sound broken to me.  It just sounds like you want to keep the mats they supply.  That isnt something that needs fixing.  A fix implies something is broken, and nothing is broken from what is described. 

The person with the aa should be getting the bonus out of it not the customer. the customer pays for the item made and can get their moneys worth of mats back without ever having to spend the AA point. Op have you tried clicking the checkbox (crafter gets side materials?) and see when it rolls if you get the bonus materials or not?

Checking that box doesn't change things. The materials are not considered a by-product.. they're simply not consumed.

then if you get the by-product you should refund any plat that they paid you to make the item for you or are you condoning the idea of double dipping just because you decided to be a crafter?

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:04 PM   #6
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Wingrider01 wrote:

Mermut wrote:

General_Info wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I dont get the complaint.  Are you complaining that they supply the mats, you get the roll, and they keep their mats, but you want it to be so that you get the mats instead of them?  It doesnt sound broken to me.  It just sounds like you want to keep the mats they supply.  That isnt something that needs fixing.  A fix implies something is broken, and nothing is broken from what is described. 

The person with the aa should be getting the bonus out of it not the customer. the customer pays for the item made and can get their moneys worth of mats back without ever having to spend the AA point. Op have you tried clicking the checkbox (crafter gets side materials?) and see when it rolls if you get the bonus materials or not?

Checking that box doesn't change things. The materials are not considered a by-product.. they're simply not consumed.

then if you get the by-product you should refund any plat that they paid you to make the item for you or are you condoning the idea of double dipping just because you decided to be a crafter?

This is what it sounds like to me.  Not really concerned how the system might read to work, its still not right that someone supplies the mats AND pays you to make something, and you're complaining that you spent a couple AA's and didnt get the mats yourself.  Sounds more like, as you said, they want to get paid for the work, have the customer supply the mats, and get the mats back themselves so they can turn around and use or sell the mats themselves.

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:11 PM   #7
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I dont know.  I know this issue is one of mechanics, but its also of ethics.  I've been crafting for many years in many games.  Whenever a system like this gives mats back, I have always given them back to the customer.  They were never my mats to start with.  Maybe its "good business" vs "Im greedy and want mine." 

I would rather someone go: "I know this guy, Bob.  He crafted my item for me AND gave me my mats back.  I would check him out, he's real fair and fair on price too.  I've gone back to him a few times and he's always good."

Versus: "Yea Bob... I paid him, supplied the mats, and he did make my item.  But he didnt really use my mats but kept them himself.  He also charged a bit.  Greedy I tell ya, I would find someone else."

One brings customers back and even spreads your name.  The other, possibly gets you business.  But being fair in business might lose you money per transaction, but more transactions means more money.  Rather have 10 customers at lower prices than 2 customers at whatever price.

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:43 PM   #8
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The customer has the mats and is intending to effectively trade the materials for the item they are crafted out of. Yes, the mats are theirs, but they're intending, expecting, to 'lose' the mats in exchange for the item crafted.

The crafter has spent time and effort (I have no interest in getting into the debate about the relative merits/difficulty of tradeskill vs adventure leveling) to have a chance to NOT use the materials when crafting. It is the crafter's time/effort that makes it possible for the the results of crafting to be the crafted item AND it's components, rather then just the crafted item. The customer only expects the crafted item... that's what they're looking for.

On the other hand, for the tradeskill apprentice recipes, the mats can be very expensive. I think it is greedy for EITHER the crafter or the customer to keep all the mats when the materials are not used. The customer gathered the materials to begin with and the crafter is the reason they weren't consumed. In my opinion they both have some 'call' on the materials that end up not being consumed.

As a crafter, it's pretty simple. Talk to the customer ahead of time and agree what happens if the mats are consumed. If the 'deal' in that case isn't one you find satisfactory, take off your shawl and switch into a build that doesn't have a chance to return the materials. Then the customer gets exactly what they're expecting, turning over mats, and getting the crafted item.

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Old 10-28-2012, 02:08 PM   #9
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Mermut wrote:

The customer has the mats and is intending to effectively trade the materials for the item they are crafted out of. Yes, the mats are theirs, but they're intending, expecting, to 'lose' the mats in exchange for the item crafted.

The crafter has spent time and effort (I have no interest in getting into the debate about the relative merits/difficulty of tradeskill vs adventure leveling) to have a chance to NOT use the materials when crafting. It is the crafter's time/effort that makes it possible for the the results of crafting to be the crafted item AND it's components, rather then just the crafted item. The customer only expects the crafted item... that's what they're looking for.

On the other hand, for the tradeskill apprentice recipes, the mats can be very expensive. I think it is greedy for EITHER the crafter or the customer to keep all the mats when the materials are not used. The customer gathered the materials to begin with and the crafter is the reason they weren't consumed. In my opinion they both have some 'call' on the materials that end up not being consumed.

As a crafter, it's pretty simple. Talk to the customer ahead of time and agree what happens if the mats are consumed. If the 'deal' in that case isn't one you find satisfactory, take off your shawl and switch into a build that doesn't have a chance to return the materials. Then the customer gets exactly what they're expecting, turning over mats, and getting the crafted item.

I don't agree with the exception you've made for the skyshrine tradeskill apprentice recipes.  And this centers around the part of the time and effort the crafter has spent as you have said. 

Whoever wants to get into a debate about the relative merits/difficulty of tradeskill vs adventure leveling as you put it, that's exactly why the crafter should be getting the benefits of this ability.  If someone wants to complain that I'm being greedy, they're more then welcome to level up their own crafter for every combine they need, and research the ts apprentice recipes on their own in hopes of getting a freebie material.

On top of that, making any sort of deal with someone hardly ever works, because oh guess what, they already have that rare, unless you made the combine and then gave it to the person rather then commissioned it.

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:03 AM   #10
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Mermut wrote:

The customer has the mats and is intending to effectively trade the materials for the item they are crafted out of. Yes, the mats are theirs, but they're intending, expecting, to 'lose' the mats in exchange for the item crafted.

The crafter has spent time and effort (I have no interest in getting into the debate about the relative merits/difficulty of tradeskill vs adventure leveling) to have a chance to NOT use the materials when crafting. It is the crafter's time/effort that makes it possible for the the results of crafting to be the crafted item AND it's components, rather then just the crafted item. The customer only expects the crafted item... that's what they're looking for.

I couldn't have put it better myself. this is not about greed this is about a mechanic that is intended to grant a bonus to the crafter that is being given to the customer who doesnt even need the aa to get the bonus. if ppl want bonus mats then they should craft their own items with the AA.

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Old 10-29-2012, 09:23 AM   #11
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The customer has the mats and is intending to effectively trade the materials for the item they are crafted out of. Yes, the mats are theirs, but they're intending, expecting, to 'lose' the mats in exchange for the item crafted.

The crafter has spent time and effort (I have no interest in getting into the debate about the relative merits/difficulty of tradeskill vs adventure leveling) to have a chance to NOT use the materials when crafting. It is the crafter's time/effort that makes it possible for the the results of crafting to be the crafted item AND it's components, rather then just the crafted item. The customer only expects the crafted item... that's what they're looking for.

Ok let me say the same thing to you in a different way from the perspective of a customer or potential customer.

I am a Crafter! I can craft your item! I am the man for the job! I only require that you pay XX for my services, provide the materials and if there are any left-over materials those are mine too. Sound fair? let's get started. 

Ok not bad right? seems reasonable....

Now a different approach

I am a crafter! I can craft your item! In fact, I have taken time to research my tradeskill to be able to provide the best job I can for you, I have scouered the land to find the best tools. Why I even have a chance to craft your item without using any materials! My normal fee is XX but I always accept tips should you decide you recieved exceptional service.

Which one would you go to?

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:10 AM   #12
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[email protected] wrote:

Ok not bad right? seems reasonable....

Now a different approach

I am a crafter! I can craft your item! In fact, I have taken time to research my tradeskill to be able to provide the best job I can for you, I have scouered the land to find the best tools. Why I even have a chance to craft your item without using any materials! My normal fee is XX but I always accept tips should you decide you recieved exceptional service.

Which one would you go to?

I'd go with ether. as long as the crafter knows how crafting works it doesnt matter to me how long it takes to make the item or if they get bonus materials from their conservation of mass AA.

clients are providing the materials to craft an item or items and provding currency for serviced rendered by the crafter.

 the convervation of mass aa was designed as a *crafter* bonus specific to charaters and their own crafting rounds.

why should your oppion on ethics apply to everyone? changing this will not prevent you from giving the bonus mats to the client at your own discretion.

wether other crafters keep the materials from conversation of mass or not is none of your buiness. people will vote with their feet and go to crafters they agree with.

I craft items for a small sum i couldn't care less if the client likes me keeping the bonus rare materials or not.

*I* did the crafting, *I* got the bonus roll, *I* should have the bonus materials.

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:27 AM   #13
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It is not my position on ethics that I am pointing out it is my position on smart business practice and using the system to be a benifit in obtaining more customers. It is smart business vs. nickle-&-diming your customer. your "I" technique in obtaining customers will not earn you business. When you go to a resturant does the cook eat your food? because "THEY" went to cullinary school "THEY" did the cooking "THEY" get the meal? or do you walk in and someone greets you with "How may I serve you?" or something to that effect. 

Your greed sir has killed you and drove away your business, while those willing to serve have risen high above your knowledge and comprehension. Because if you haven't any customers there are no side products for you to roll on now are there.

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:35 AM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

it is not my position on ethics that I am pointing out it is my position on smart business practice and using the system to be a benifit in obtaining more customers. It is smart business vs. nickle-&-diming your customer.

while people may like getting their mat back and getting the item too how you conduct your transactions will not change if the aa was changed to always give the bonus mat to the crafter.

You'll give them the bonus mats and other crafters that wish to keep the bonus materials will do so.

[email protected] wrote:

Your greed sir has killed you and drove away your business, while those willing to serve have risen high above your knowledge and comprehension. Because if you haven't any customers there are no side products for you to roll on now are there.

I dont run my crafting like a buisness i'm not out to get more customers or make alot of plat. i help people and only ask for a little payment for services render. all we are asking for is a system to function how it is intended to. the crafter spends the aa point the crafter caused the effect and rightfully should get the resulting bonus.

you know nothing about me any judgement you do make about me is purely grasping at straws.

[email protected] wrote:

your "I" technique in obtaining customers will not earn you business. When you go to a resturant does the cook eat your food? because "THEY" went to cullinary school "THEY" did the cooking "THEY" get the meal? or do you walk in and someone greets you with "How may I serve you?" or something to that effect.

i find this amusing. since how flawed it is. a prov in this game makes you a reactant type food, he grinded his crafting, he makes the meal for you, he gets payment for services rendered, you get the food and *if* he has the conservation of mass aa he should get a chance at bonus mats.

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:52 AM   #15
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I have not judged you, you have recieved no consequience for my words therefore it is not a judgement. It is mearly a statement of observation.

You will continue to do as you will, craft as you please, My advice can either be taken or not, It is of no realivance to me. Others that see the conversation will form opinions of their own as well, It matters not.

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Old 10-29-2012, 10:54 AM   #16
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General_Info wrote:

Mermut wrote:

The customer has the mats and is intending to effectively trade the materials for the item they are crafted out of. Yes, the mats are theirs, but they're intending, expecting, to 'lose' the mats in exchange for the item crafted.

The crafter has spent time and effort (I have no interest in getting into the debate about the relative merits/difficulty of tradeskill vs adventure leveling) to have a chance to NOT use the materials when crafting. It is the crafter's time/effort that makes it possible for the the results of crafting to be the crafted item AND it's components, rather then just the crafted item. The customer only expects the crafted item... that's what they're looking for.

I couldn't have put it better myself. this is not about greed this is about a mechanic that is intended to grant a bonus to the crafter that is being given to the customer who doesnt even need the aa to get the bonus. if ppl want bonus mats then they should craft their own items with the AA.

It IS about greed. People are making up their own rules here to benefit themselves. I think it's ridiculous that one would go through the trouble to try and charge extra for mats being saved. They aren't trading you materials for an item. They are entrusting you to make something from those items and not mess up. I prefer to leave it in the hands of the customer. On the slim chance I can give them back materials, they can decide to make another item or give me something extra. I've already done what I've been paid to do and I'd like to have them return to me if the need arises again. Developer time does not need to be wasted on fixing anything here. There's nothing broken about the system.

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Old 10-29-2012, 11:07 AM   #17
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I will often offer to craft for free for the right to the component returns.  But it's all trust.

Treating the materials returned on a proc as a sideproduct would make it part of the UI, in case you don't trust every random person you've never even seen in game before.

A workaround is to make the item from your own components, and then trade the final result for their components, but that is difficult for many of the combines unless you're really well stocked.  The items in question and all their components are tradable.

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Old 10-29-2012, 11:11 AM   #18
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those AAs are place to benefit you when you make things for yourself or sell them on the broker versus commissioning them.

there is no problem that i see here. if you don't like it then don't commission work. provide your own mats, sell the items and recieve the byproducts.

that is all.

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Old 10-29-2012, 11:17 AM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

It IS about greed. People are making up their own rules here to benefit themselves. I think it's ridiculous that one would go through the trouble to try and charge extra for mats being saved. They aren't trading you materials for an item. They are entrusting you to make something from those items and not mess up.

I never mentioned charging more if by the off chance bonus materials come into paly the price for crafting an item shouldnt change.

you go to get an item crafted, the crafter makes it, you pay and get the item = transaction done *if* conservation of mass comes into play the crafter invested in that aa and wether or not he gets it as a bonus or you do should be entirely upto him.

a waiter provides you a service, he gets paid to do his job, tips are not required clients use their discreation and tip when they feel like it. the difference here is the crafter needs to have something specific that he/she has to get(AA) and getting that 'tip' is entirely dependant a dice roll and not controled by the client.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:17 PM   #20
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General_Info wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

It IS about greed. People are making up their own rules here to benefit themselves. I think it's ridiculous that one would go through the trouble to try and charge extra for mats being saved. They aren't trading you materials for an item. They are entrusting you to make something from those items and not mess up.

I never mentioned charging more if by the off chance bonus materials come into paly the price for crafting an item shouldnt change.

you go to get an item crafted, the crafter makes it, you pay and get the item = transaction done *if* conservation of mass comes into play the crafter invested in that aa and wether or not he gets it as a bonus or you do should be entirely upto him.

a waiter provides you a service, he gets paid to do his job, tips are not required clients use their discreation and tip when they feel like it. the difference here is the crafter needs to have something specific that he/she has to get(AA) and getting that 'tip' is entirely dependant a dice roll and not controled by the client.

I didn't say you mentioned charging more. I was referring to previous statements.

The conservation system was clearly designed to benefit whoever the item is being made for. Let's not forget that you occasionally have notrade items involved in commission crafting. I don't believe a crafter should be allowed to take someone else's hard-earned resources or gear like that just because the conservation AA fired off.

It's practically a given that any crafter will have the AA.  After CoE releases, it won't even be a matter of inconvenience as those abilities are going in a separate pool. The waiter analogy doesn't work here. I even have a little waiter story of my own to counter it. I just returned from a trip, where I was a regular at a certain restaurant and the waiter was giving ME better service as the days went by and I came home with a free bottle of liquor from the boss.

There aren't many comparisons you can make to real world activities. About the only situation where you pay someone to produce something and there's a chance to get back what you put in would be monetary investments like the stock market. You pay your fee to invest in a stock. Any returns from that investment go to the customer, not the broker.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:36 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

The conservation system was clearly designed to benefit whoever the item is being made for. Let's not forget that you occasionally have notrade items involved in commission crafting. I don't believe a crafter should be allowed to take someone else's hard-earned resources or gear like that just because the conservation AA fired off.

as another poster has stated when someone comes to you for an item to be crafted (rares or not) and provides the materials they expect to lose the materials and maybe some coin for the item to be crafted and obtained.

If the aa was the other way around "gives a X chance when you are commissioned an item to not use the materials" i would not have any trouble with it but as-is is seems to and i am of the oppinon that it is meant to be a crafter specific bonus to the person who crafted the item and invested in the AA.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #22
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Mermut wrote:

Checking that box doesn't change things. The materials are not considered a by-product.. they're simply not consumed.

Thats the real issue that needs/should be fixed.

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:14 PM   #23
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General_Info wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

The conservation system was clearly designed to benefit whoever the item is being made for. Let's not forget that you occasionally have notrade items involved in commission crafting. I don't believe a crafter should be allowed to take someone else's hard-earned resources or gear like that just because the conservation AA fired off.

as another poster has stated when someone comes to you for an item to be crafted (rares or not) and provides the materials they expect to lose the materials and maybe some coin for the item to be crafted and obtained.

If the aa was the other way around "gives a X chance when you are commissioned an item to not use the materials" i would not have any trouble with it but as-is is seems to and i am of the oppinon that it is meant to be a crafter specific bonus to the person who crafted the item and invested in the AA.

There is no "other way around" for this. The way the ability was set up is completely fair to all parties. The expectation of the customer is something that person made up.

I find it silly that this issue is only coming up now. It's really a non-issue and it seems like people are just trying to pull a fast one with the new devs. Quit being so greedy and leave it be.

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:51 PM   #24
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[email protected] wrote:

There is no "other way around" for this. The way the ability was set up is completely fair to all parties. The expectation of the customer is something that person made up.

I find it silly that this issue is only coming up now. It's really a non-issue and it seems like people are just trying to pull a fast one with the new devs. Quit being so greedy and leave it be.

You should argue why it shouldnt be changed instead of just callnig peopel greedy because they disagree with you.

in your eyes > crafter wanting to keep BONUS materials which he specificly has to spec for = greedy

> customer paying for a service (crafting) and getting a BONUS they didnt need to do anything for = not greedy?

you keep gonig on like somehow the crafter getting the bonus materials is some sort of payment on behalf of the client it isn't.

In any craft the client always looses the materials for the item and sometimes pays some coin. the bonus has to be specced for by the crafter not the client therefore all rights to the materials should fall with the one who saved them from being used.

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Old 10-29-2012, 03:12 PM   #25
Deveryn
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The argument for why it shouldn't be changed has already been made. Go back and read through responses contrary to your opinion. It's all there. Nothing more needs to be said.

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