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Old 10-15-2012, 10:41 PM   #1
Jrral

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From the update notes:

Due to an exploit, raid zones now have a hard 2.8 day [ 2 days 20 hours] lockout timer. Timers will expire naturally and are no longer able to be reset. This will include all Velious and future Raid zones.

Bwah? I can see where this is going to cause a lot of problems for casual guilds who have a 3-4 day gap in their raiding schedule: if you raid Tuesdays and Thursdays and get stuck and can't finish a zone on Thursday, it'll have evaporated by next Tuesday. There goes any chance of picking up where we left off unless we schedule a special raid day Friday or Saturday (Sunday won't work, since it's a 2d20h timer it'll expire 4 hours before raid time on Sunday).

And I'm having a hard time seeing a significant exploit unless there's a bug in the code that I haven't noticed.. At most you can double up and run a zone twice in one day, but only by foregoing running it earlier. I don't see running a zone twice in a 5d16h period instead of once each 2d20h period as much of an exploit?

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Old 10-15-2012, 10:51 PM   #2
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The main zone that would be a problem for is PoW since it is so long, but that has a longer timer so that you have the chance to progress. The other relevant zones are all pretty short so /shrug
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #3
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Wow.That is all kinds of screwy.Totally messes up casual guild chances in zones.

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Old 10-15-2012, 11:13 PM   #4
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Clearing POW trash and named in 4.8 day.really? what happened.

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Old 10-15-2012, 11:53 PM   #5
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This change is likely to kill raiding for casual forces, who are still struggling to get past that content you consider to be so easy and short slippery......Strongly agree with OP- this is a bad change.  There is no reason to do this because a few guilds might be doing something fishy with timers. 

If something fishy is happening with timers, then fix that.  Don't make it impossible for casual raid forces to complete content due to lack of time....We raid tues/thurs and our numbers are usually better on tues...It's nice to be able to clear out the easier stuff we can handle no problem on Thurs and have zone still open on Tues to work on the content that we are still struggling on.

Making this change is like seeing a lightbulb needs to be changed, and instead of simply screwing in a new bulb, you tear out the old fixture and put a new one in.

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Old 10-16-2012, 12:05 AM   #6
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My guild is none to happy about it either. We clear PoW in 1, at the very most 2 days. the new ST even faster. Everything else doesn't drop anything we remotely need unless you count ultra-rare myths from drunder.

As for the bug from what I heard it was a pretty big deal. basically being able to reset zones at will, with bot teams clearing easy stuff ~20 times a day.

EVERY raider is getting screwed with this and it is QUITE the big deal. I'm not surprised but saddened they would so quickly employ something this big, even if its to fix a bad exploit.

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Old 10-16-2012, 12:21 AM   #7
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I hope this is temporary while they take time to fix whatever shenanigans were going on.

Otherwise, it's a pretty nasty blow to anyone who cannot clear a raid zone in one pass.  Will be pretty much fatal to any attempts to casually raid in CoE....

Want to pick up where you left off? too bad, you can't....

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Old 10-16-2012, 12:49 AM   #8
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This sucks for everybody, not just the lower-end guilds. Basically what it comes down to is the exploit was worse than the fix is. If this is what they have to do for the time being while they find a better way to fix the exploit, then it is what it is. 

Yes it sucks and it's pretty annoying but it's very necessary. I just hope the devs are at least looking into a better fix. This shouldn't be the permanent solution. 

There's a line of what you can get away with and what you can't, people need to learn this by now. Purposely circumventing a zone timer and getting more gear, which is basically duping, is so far across the line. Haven't people learned this from the whole BG's gear duping fiasco. Just don't do it. 

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:15 AM   #9
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What ever happened to punishing the exploiters instead of all the rest of us ??? 

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Old 10-16-2012, 02:54 AM   #10
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Perhaps they should have put in more lovin to the security to the timers, or they should let it leave..... but cutting all the code from the game and shorten the timer might not solve our problems.... but its surely the easy way... instead of modifing the code and reimplent oO save some codingtime ^^

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Old 10-16-2012, 04:54 AM   #11
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As is my guild has had to cut their hours to continue raiding with the flailing Eq2 population (specifically on the west coast).  At 10 hours a week total raid time, this change is a slap to us.  Unless raid zones are going to be magically changed to be one mob zones, no trash..how will guilds like mine clear the progression named deeper in zone?  This is a poorly thought out fix to an exploit.  Depending on the new raid content coming with the xpac, it may mean a large portion of your subscriber base going away.  There are more casual guilds these days than hardcore....

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Old 10-16-2012, 05:11 AM   #12
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This is like hearing that the iceberg has compromised the first 5 compartments and you decide to flood the rear 5 compartments to keep the boat on an even keel. All that happens is the boat sinks even faster.

My guild can clear PoW in one night so instead of every 3 days we now get every 5 days.Since the only other viable loot is a couple of items in Sleepers Tomb (which we clear in minutes), and some 2 groupable avatars, this game is struggling to provide enough content to warrant paying a subscription.

When you take away the casual guilds fun by not giving them the time to complete a zone due to a hard reset don't be surprised when their members decide to stop paying a subscription either.

Dumbest decision ever ... whoever is responsible for green lighting this should be fired on the spot.

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Old 10-16-2012, 05:26 AM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:

This is like hearing that the iceberg has compromised the first 5 compartments and you decide to flood the rear 5 compartments to keep the boat on an even keel.

Dumbest decision ever ... whoever is responsible for green lighting this should be fired on the spot.

i agree .. who ever passed this update needs the sack without pay .. and banned to never work for then entire life ... idiot

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Old 10-16-2012, 09:18 AM   #14
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You guys are being a little extreme with the keelhauling suggestions! I can understand that they didn't put too much thought into it with fan faire in a few days, new expansion unveiling and releasing within a month, not to mention starting up open beta.

But.

I'm pretty sure this change won't even stop the people who are exploiting lockout timers from doing it. I'm pretty sure the problem was the 30 minute soft timer from zoning in, not the min/max duration lockouts. So if it's still there, 'bot crews' won't be able to clear it '20+' times a day but they'll still be able to do it 8-10+ times a day, if they really wanted to. And if it is, this change is just making a lot of people angry and fixing nothing. But we'll see in 3 hours. 

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Old 10-16-2012, 10:45 AM   #15
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The Q&A at fanfair should be interesting this time around I wonder if they realized this or if they intend to forego the usual Q&A.

Either way as buffrat said thanks for essentially stiffling casual guilds in progression and not addressing the issue in the first place...

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Old 10-16-2012, 11:12 AM   #16
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This seems like yet another overreaction that penalizes the legitimate while (potentially) not fixing the problem it's aimed at.

Maybe it will prevent those exploiting lockouts but it seems like it comes at rather large a cost to everyone else. Instead of directly confronting those exploiting they once again throw everyone in the same boat.

I hope this is only temporary while a more ideal fix is worked out.... I, for one, can't figure out why they had to go to a hard timer instead of simply eliminating the 30-minute short lock and applying the standard lockout once anything is killed as usual. Just another case of poor communication I suppose; drastic changes that just appear in patch notes like this instead of being prefaced with a brief explanation from a developer contributes to the sense of no communication.

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Old 10-16-2012, 11:35 AM   #17
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Why don't they just delete the accounts of the people that are abusing the system. That wont stop them from creating a new accout, but they will have to start all over from scratch. I would imagine alot of those are multiple accounts that are bots. My point is don't punish everyone because some are doing wrong

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Old 10-16-2012, 11:38 AM   #18
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I'm pretty sure this change won't even stop the people who are exploiting lockout timers from doing it. I'm pretty sure the problem was the 30 minute soft timer from zoning in, not the min/max duration lockouts. So if it's still there, 'bot crews' won't be able to clear it '20+' times a day but they'll still be able to do it 8-10+ times a day, if they really wanted to. And if it is, this change is just making a lot of people angry and fixing nothing. But we'll see in 3 hours. 

You are correct, the 30 minute temporary lockout is still there on zoning in.  So they didn't even fix the cause of the exploit.

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Old 10-16-2012, 12:01 PM   #19
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My casual raid Alliance is already struggling to get the right classes in place for each mob to progress and the Devs do this fast and easy fix instead of going after the real problem smooth move SoE. we'd just started getting enough people to have the right classes for each fight in the zones we are doing and you stop any chance of us progressing we only have about 3 or 4 hours 2 nights a week we can raid you give us a 2d 20hr hard lockout? roll it back before you loose anymore subscriptions.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:03 PM   #20
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You guys are being a little extreme with the keelhauling suggestions! I can understand that they didn't put too much thought into it with fan faire in a few days, new expansion unveiling and releasing within a month, not to mention starting up open beta.

Speaking as a professional developer myself, I cannot understand not putting too much thought into it. Especially if you know your dev and CS teams will be out of town shortly after the release. If I did that and it caused major side-effects, my manager would FIRE ME on the spot, because if he didn't his boss would. Not that I'd do that, if someone wanted me to my first question would be "It's low-impact enough that it's been there for months and nobody's noticed until now. Is 95 days with the bug vs. 90 really going to make enough difference to offset the risk?".

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:17 PM   #21
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Why not suspend the exploiting accounts for 4 days every time they do it while looking for a proper fix?

This whole thing seems like a permanent change they have wanted to do for a while imo. Another way to 'extend the life' of content while not actually having to make more content.

I don't remember them ever going after an exploit in this manner in the past. They are either severely underestimating the impact this will have on raiding for the entire game or know full well what it will do and they want it. Don't be surprised if EQNext has timers that work the same exact way.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:29 PM   #22
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Would be fine this were kos/eof. But it's not anymore.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:53 PM   #23
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slippery wrote:

The main zone that would be a problem for is PoW since it is so long, but that has a longer timer so that you have the chance to progress. The other relevant zones are all pretty short so /shrug

Slip, you're normally pretty spot on, but your way off base here.  Actually, sounds like your almost as off base as the people at SoE who thought this was the right decision.  I wonder did you suggest this as the sollution?

But why is it off base.  Try being in a casual guild that raids wed / sun and can't finish tallons HM in a single night.  Pretty much means you never finish the zone.

Its the wrong solution, hands down its a bad idea.  Sure for the WW top 70ish guilds the only issue is the PoW timer, but for many, many other guilds this is a huge problem.

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Old 10-16-2012, 02:11 PM   #24
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Patch note should say: "Due to an exploit, we are fundamentally changing how raiding times work. This will be directly opposed to current raid schedules guilds have established."

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Old 10-16-2012, 02:14 PM   #25
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Ulrichvon wrote:

slippery wrote:

The main zone that would be a problem for is PoW since it is so long, but that has a longer timer so that you have the chance to progress. The other relevant zones are all pretty short so /shrug

Slip, you're normally pretty spot on, but your way off base here.  Actually, sounds like your almost as off base as the people at SoE who thought this was the right decision.  I wonder did you suggest this as the sollution?

But why is it off base.  Try being in a casual guild that raids wed / sun and can't finish tallons HM in a single night.  Pretty much means you never finish the zone.

Its the wrong solution, hands down its a bad idea.  Sure for the WW top 70ish guilds the only issue is the PoW timer, but for many, many other guilds this is a huge problem.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a ridiculously awful fix. All the problems people have posted are very real to them, and they are problems that the system that was in place was designed to fix. Within the bounds of what we are talking about when it comes to Skyshrine that really shouldn't be a problem. As far as Drunder, meh. Those zones aren't that long either, and they are massively out geared compared to when they originally got cleared.

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Old 10-16-2012, 02:18 PM   #26
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slippery wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a ridiculously awful fix. All the problems people have posted are very real to them, and they are problems that the system that was in place was designed to fix. Within the bounds of what we are talking about when it comes to Skyshrine that really shouldn't be a problem. As far as Drunder, meh. Those zones aren't that long either, and they are massively out geared compared to when they originally got cleared.

Sure, but that doesn't change the reality on the ground.

My guild runs 2 raid forces, and the more hardcore one is virtually unafffected by this change, in fact I bet most of them are secretly happy not to do PoW trash as much.  However, the casual force is severely nutered in what they can do with this change.

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Old 10-16-2012, 02:51 PM   #27
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Due to an exploit, raid zones now have a hard 2.8 day [ 2 days 20 hours] lockout timer.

Am I misunderstanding the term "lockout" or does this mean once you zone out of a raid instance now you cannot re enter til the timer expires? Seems as if the word persistent would have been used if it was meant.

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Old 10-16-2012, 03:49 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

Due to an exploit, raid zones now have a hard 2.8 day [ 2 days 20 hours] lockout timer.

Am I misunderstanding the term "lockout" or does this mean once you zone out of a raid instance now you cannot re enter til the timer expires? Seems as if the word persistent would have been used if it was meant.

as i understand it, it means that the zone will expire when it expires there will be no early* reset of an extended "lock out".

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Old 10-16-2012, 03:50 PM   #29
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existing timers that are persistent, are know 2d20h persistent timers. So i am assuming that they do mean persistent timers not Lockout timers. I have not had a chance to test new timers tho.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:01 PM   #30
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Both the max and min duration on PoW is 4 days and 20 hours, and the reset button says I can reset in the same exact amount of time that is left on the zone.

Its just as bad as everyone thinks it is, we did not misunderstand.

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