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Old 10-16-2012, 04:46 PM   #91
Alenna
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Cakeny wrote:

How does a slightly longer delay between raiding a zone kill raiding guilds?

not a longer delay but a shorter reset of zone.  now those of us who can only raid 2 days a week have to either change raiding schedules(do you know how hard that is wiht 24 people.)or keep hitting the same mobs every time they raid hoping to progress int hte 3-4 hrs they have those nights. it will slow down if not halt progress for casual raid guilds and alliances.

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Old 10-16-2012, 04:52 PM   #92
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Cakeny wrote:

How does a slightly longer delay between raiding a zone kill raiding guilds?

Casual guild raids 2 hours every Sun/Wed.

Try finding time to progress a new boss like say Tallon HM.  By the time the raid gets to him on Sunday they have 20mins tops to work on him, and now on Wednesday the zone is reset and you start over.

Can't progress Tallon till you can kill the other mobs in zone faster, or until you change your raid schedule.

Thats just a very simple example.

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Old 10-16-2012, 04:56 PM   #93
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ranga wrote:

Our alliance has been struggling for a year.

This will kill it stone dead.

Thanks.

Same with ours.

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Old 10-16-2012, 05:05 PM   #94
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Hi folks, just checking in to let you know that this isn't the final state of things. We'll give you an update when you have one, but it'll probably be sometime after Fan Faire before we get a final fix on live.

and in  the mean time my raid alliance is halted in their progression. Please roll back this not a fix until you get hte final one in. don't halt progression of casual raiders please.

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Old 10-16-2012, 05:11 PM   #95
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I still want to know what the bug was. If this hamfisted fix stops i, there should be no issue with explaining (without super specifics) what was going on.

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Old 10-16-2012, 06:02 PM   #96
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So what exactly was/is the exploit? As far as I knew, you zone in, and if you kill any mob then the timer started. If you don't kill anything then you can reset the zone after 30 mins. If you zone in for SLR but nothing is killed while you're there, then the same 30 min timer exists. I don't understand how an exploit can be achieved. I see people saying that 30 min soft reset is still there so it's obviously not the SLR that's the exploit. I do understand how an automatic reset after less than 3 days affects progress issues thoigh.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:03 PM   #97
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In my mind the most important things aren't being said:

1.  How bad was the exploit?  This kind of gives a hint.

2.  How many of the people complaining are more upset over the fact that their exploit was being plugged?

3.  How long has this exploit existed and how long has SoE known about it?

They already said this is a temporary fix.  So you have to cool your heals or deal with a less then perfect raid schedule for a few weeks.  I absolutely agree that they need to jump on exploits as soon as discovered.   They haven't done enough of that in the past.

If they knew about this exploit for a year and just now did this then yea, they deserved to be flamed.  As much for ignoring the exploit as for a bludgeon approach to plugging it.  If they found out about it 2 days ago and this was all they could do quickly then I think they're doing the right thing. 

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Old 10-16-2012, 07:04 PM   #98
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Regolas wrote:

So what exactly was/is the exploit? As far as I knew, you zone in, and if you kill any mob then the timer started. If you don't kill anything then you can reset the zone after 30 mins. If you zone in for SLR but nothing is killed while you're there, then the same 30 min timer exists. I don't understand how an exploit can be achieved. I see people saying that 30 min soft reset is still there so it's obviously not the SLR that's the exploit. I do understand how an automatic reset after less than 3 days affects progress issues thoigh.

The basics of it (without going into details)

Was that if you zoned into a new zone, waited 30min for the basic timer to expire, it erased all previous memory of zones you'd been in, so you could set multiple times on a day, and go back to them all.

Hoping SoE-Mods don't come down on me, seeing as its been fixed, and it was asked!

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Old 10-16-2012, 07:12 PM   #99
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Gilasil wrote:

Chronus1 wrote:

Nobody will say the exploit because then they will get ninjad on by SoE Mod -## for saying exploits. I'm certainly not. But basically it does allow you to near infinitely farm a zone over and over.

In my mind the most important things aren't being said:

1.  How bad was the exploit?  This kind of gives a hint. As Errorr's post hopefully demonstrates, pretty bad, it allowed near infinite farming of a zone, as I said.

2.  How many of the people complaining are more upset over the fact that their exploit was being plugged? Very few, no guilds I know used this because they dare not and even if they did PoW trash is not worthing doing more than 1 time in a day.

3.  How long has this exploit existed and how long has SoE known about it? Existed since persistent instances came into being I think and I don't know when they found out but I only found out last week.

*snip*

If they knew about this exploit for a year and just now did this then yea, they deserved to be flamed.  As much for ignoring the exploit as for a bludgeon approach to plugging it.  If they found out about it 2 days ago and this was all they could do quickly then I think they're doing the right thing. I disagree that it's the right thing to have done, would it have hurt to wait until after Fanfaire when very few people knew of it and then had a proper solution? After so long of it being in the game 2 weeks more wouldn't have been that bad to get it right first time imo.

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Old 10-16-2012, 07:19 PM   #100
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the *magic* time was when the zone was resettable but still available but this has been so since the ingression of persistent instances.   the fix is clearly to remove or fix the "soft" 30 min zone lock not to change the entire zone structure.   yes, loosing that 30 min soft lock would suck for other reasons but tbh..   those are probably considered exploits as well if this was one.

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Old 10-16-2012, 07:36 PM   #101
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Nice job completely ruining every guilds raiding scheduel. You make your entire playerbase extremely angry, come back and try to cover it up saying you made some sort of typo... yeah right...

Then you say it is going to be a temporary fix (but only after theres already a huge outcry of people saying, or actually canceling their accounts). But you aren't going to worry about it while you are at SOE Live. That is even more of a slap in the face of how much you really don't care about any of your customers...

We all already know you are going to go to SOE Live, sweep this issue under the rug, come back, and never address it again because oh dear it would cost you money to actually fix things and put them back to the way they are supposed to work. Do you realize how many people feel like you guys are now purposefully trying to kill this game? That's not a good thing as a business to have the majority of your customers feel the way they do about your company.

Ban the exploiters! All of them! Permanently! Ban them and delete their characters! They know they are doing something wrong, they know they are exploiting. You dont even need to create this game-ruining patch. All you have to do is BAN anyone that does this, next thing you know... nobody will do it ever because they know the consequence is a BANNED and DELETED account. Gee... how hard can that be to do until you actually create a fix without destroying zone timers and disrupting EVERY guilds raiding schedual and ability to progress. This effects all the raiding guilds... casual, hardcore, PoW farm status guilds...

I think maybe now is a good time to just move on to something bigger and better than SoE who has no idea what they are doing when it comes to making a good solid game and keeping their customers happy.

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Old 10-16-2012, 07:50 PM   #102
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Chronus1 wrote:

Gilasil wrote:

Chronus1 wrote:

Nobody will say the exploit because then they will get ninjad on by SoE Mod -## for saying exploits. I'm certainly not. But basically it does allow you to near infinitely farm a zone over and over.

In my mind the most important things aren't being said:

1.  How bad was the exploit?  This kind of gives a hint. As Errorr's post hopefully demonstrates, pretty bad, it allowed near infinite farming of a zone, as I said.

2.  How many of the people complaining are more upset over the fact that their exploit was being plugged? Very few, no guilds I know used this because they dare not and even if they did PoW trash is not worthing doing more than 1 time in a day.

3.  How long has this exploit existed and how long has SoE known about it? Existed since persistent instances came into being I think and I don't know when they found out but I only found out last week.

*snip*

If they knew about this exploit for a year and just now did this then yea, they deserved to be flamed.  As much for ignoring the exploit as for a bludgeon approach to plugging it.  If they found out about it 2 days ago and this was all they could do quickly then I think they're doing the right thing. I disagree that it's the right thing to have done, would it have hurt to wait until after Fanfaire when very few people knew of it and then had a proper solution? After so long of it being in the game 2 weeks more wouldn't have been that bad to get it right first time imo.

I disagree that few people were using it.  It appears that most of the people responding in this thread know about it.  To think that this exploit was so widely known and hardly anyone was using it is a bit hard to swallow.  I just can't see most raiders I know saying "no, no, no don't use that exploit even though it would help us a lot as that would be wrong."  I just don't see it.  Sure some would not use it, but many would.

If you found out about it so recently it's very likely others were also finding out about it recently.  That would definately cause it's use to spike.

It's likely that SoE has known about it for awhile, decided the elegant solution would take some time and testing to get right (i.e. do what was intended without introducing new bugs -- as we all know how much players hate new bugs), so was monitoring the situation (i.e. quietly monitoring what raids did) to see how widespread it was.  For a long time it may have hardly ever been used.  If there was a spike in the last couple weeks that would definately get their attention and put them into panic mode.  Hence this change.

If a lot of people were using it they could hardly come down on them.

SoE has a history of letting exploits go.  Remember grey shards?  I do.  It did not make either SoE or the player base look good.  They do not need a repeat of that.  So I"m glad they're being more aggressive.  I'm not glad they sat on this exploit for so long.

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Old 10-16-2012, 08:14 PM   #103
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I don't see why they just don't get rid of the stupid 30 min temp lockout timer.  Nobody likes it, it's unnecessary, and it is what is causing the exploit.

As long as you don't start a new timer until you kill something and are locked to another zone, wouldn't this be an easy fix?

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Old 10-16-2012, 08:47 PM   #104
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Hi folks, just checking in to let you know that this isn't the final state of things. We'll give you an update when you have one, but it'll probably be sometime after Fan Faire before we get a final fix on live.

If it really is a temporary fix and temporary is real life temporary not smedley temporary then that is ok.  But if this is made permanent it really will hurt casual raiding guilds and right now we can't afford to lose people as it is.

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Old 10-16-2012, 10:17 PM   #105
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I have an update! The actual fix is going to be riskier than we expected, and we want to take more time to make sure nothing explodes, so we're going to roll back the zones to the way they were until we can get the fix to live. We are aiming to have the zones back the way they were on Thursday.

Since I know it'll be the next question, the fix is going to function outwardly the same way things do right now. There are going to be a couple extra edge cases where you may get conflicting 30 minute lockout timers if you reset your old instances after the raid you want to join starts up their new instance. To combat those, we'll also be adding the ability to reset the 30 minute timers, as long as you haven't been locked to the zone (Which means it isn't a 30 minute timer anymore anyway).

Until the fix is in please don't exploit... Actually, even after the fix is in please don't exploit.

Thanks.

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Old 10-17-2012, 01:56 AM   #106
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Thank you for replying, Lyndro. At least it proves that the devs are listening. This time SMILEY

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Old 10-17-2012, 02:12 AM   #107
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

I have an update! The actual fix is going to be riskier than we expected, and we want to take more time to make sure nothing explodes, so we're going to roll back the zones to the way they were until we can get the fix to live. We are aiming to have the zones back the way they were on Thursday.

Since I know it'll be the next question, the fix is going to function outwardly the same way things do right now. There are going to be a couple extra edge cases where you may get conflicting 30 minute lockout timers if you reset your old instances after the raid you want to join starts up their new instance. To combat those, we'll also be adding the ability to reset the 30 minute timers, as long as you haven't been locked to the zone (Which means it isn't a 30 minute timer anymore anyway).

Until the fix is in please don't exploit... Actually, even after the fix is in please don't exploit.

Thanks.

Putting aside the fact that three of my posts were removed for I guess not towing the soe party line....

I am shaking my head that you finally decided to do a roll back after it was repeatedly explained by the player base the fix that was put in didnt address the problem and in essence allowed the exploit to continue while hampering progression..I would hope (but seriously doubt) in the future major mechanics changes like this would be reviewed for possible adverse effects to the community who knows might have avoided 7 pages+ (including the multiple posts that were removed from many of the commenters) of being flamed for poor judgment.

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Old 10-17-2012, 02:29 AM   #108
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Thought: do away with the 30-minute timer entirely. That does away with the need for that timer to expire, if you don't kill anything to get the regular lockout timer you don't record an instance of the zone and when you exit that instance is gone. No loss since it's by definition pristine. Doing away with the 30-minute timer's expiration should do away with the bit the exploit exploits, no? The only thing that'd do is make it so people could zone in multiple times in succession to loot things, as long as nothing in the zone was killed while they were there. That might open up more loot opportunities, sure, but people can already do that with alts anyway and better that than the exploit.

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Old 10-17-2012, 08:38 AM   #109
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

I have an update! The actual fix is going to be riskier than we expected, and we want to take more time to make sure nothing explodes, so we're going to roll back the zones to the way they were until we can get the fix to live. We are aiming to have the zones back the way they were on Thursday.

Since I know it'll be the next question, the fix is going to function outwardly the same way things do right now. There are going to be a couple extra edge cases where you may get conflicting 30 minute lockout timers if you reset your old instances after the raid you want to join starts up their new instance. To combat those, we'll also be adding the ability to reset the 30 minute timers, as long as you haven't been locked to the zone (Which means it isn't a 30 minute timer anymore anyway).

Until the fix is in please don't exploit... Actually, even after the fix is in please don't exploit.

Thanks.

Forgive me but why is it the devs concern what we do with our time anyways? Why are timers even on raid zones? It's OUR time and our money. What do you care? I'm not being a troll, that is a direct question to the EQ2 team and my tone is polite, but brisk. It takes hours and hours to clear PoW. We are subscribers of time in a game. If we enjoy one zone versus another, why cant we just do it as often as we like? Again, it's our time sink.

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Old 10-17-2012, 08:39 AM   #110
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Oh and reduce the timer on Halls of Seeing please. Since you guys left our status from current raid content, I have to backtrack old zones to get some. Thanks.

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Old 10-17-2012, 09:34 AM   #111
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

I have an update! The actual fix is going to be riskier than we expected, and we want to take more time to make sure nothing explodes, so we're going to roll back the zones to the way they were until we can get the fix to live. We are aiming to have the zones back the way they were on Thursday.

Since I know it'll be the next question, the fix is going to function outwardly the same way things do right now. There are going to be a couple extra edge cases where you may get conflicting 30 minute lockout timers if you reset your old instances after the raid you want to join starts up their new instance. To combat those, we'll also be adding the ability to reset the 30 minute timers, as long as you haven't been locked to the zone (Which means it isn't a 30 minute timer anymore anyway).

Until the fix is in please don't exploit... Actually, even after the fix is in please don't exploit.

Thanks.

Thank you for the information Lyndro.  That's good news and a good decision.

As others have stated though, why keep the 30 minute lockout timers in the game at all?  It seems that they are the real root of the problem.

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Old 10-17-2012, 10:26 AM   #112
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And Please stop throwing Tomatoh's we have feelings too!

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Old 10-17-2012, 10:33 AM   #113
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Thank you Lyndro!

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Old 10-17-2012, 01:30 PM   #114
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ZUES wrote:

Forgive me but why is it the devs concern what we do with our time anyways? Why are timers even on raid zones? It's OUR time and our money. What do you care? I'm not being a troll, that is a direct question to the EQ2 team and my tone is polite, but brisk. It takes hours and hours to clear PoW. We are subscribers of time in a game. If we enjoy one zone versus another, why cant we just do it as often as we like? Again, it's our time sink.

Plat-farming. It's not a direct problem, but the plat-selling websites would abuse it to run zones back-to-back selling the loot to accumulate in-game plat to sell. That causes a lot of indirect problems: abuse of credit cards, abuse of account information (from associated power-levelling services which require giving the plat-seller your credentials), fraud chargebacks (from Marketplace purchases and account subscriptions made with credit card numbers obtained from plat-selling customers) and so on. Not to mention the game-balance problems when raid loot's so freely available to long-term players who have the in-game plat but not to newer players who don't have the bank balance yet (players in level-appropriate treasured or mastercrafted gear get flattened by solo mobs tuned to be non-trivial to people in legendary and fabled gear).

The lockouts, meanwhile, normally don't impact regular players. Few people who aren't purely farming really want to turn right around and run the same zone again 3 times in one night. The majority probably don't even run them every night, they take a night or two doing other things in between. So, disappoint the minority of players who want to treat raiding as a full-time job, or create major financial and account-security headaches for Sony and cause significant game-balance problems for everybody who isn't treating raiding as a full-time job? To me that's kind of an easy call.

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Old 10-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #115
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ZUES wrote:

Forgive me but why is it the devs concern what we do with our time anyways? Why are timers even on raid zones? It's OUR time and our money. What do you care? I'm not being a troll, that is a direct question to the EQ2 team and my tone is polite, but brisk. It takes hours and hours to clear PoW. We are subscribers of time in a game. If we enjoy one zone versus another, why cant we just do it as often as we like? Again, it's our time sink.

Seriously? Why is it their concern? i'd suggest that it is their concern because the entire reason that this game exists (financially) is because they want to be involved in how we spend our time. It's not random. It's calculated.

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Old 10-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #116
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

I have an update! The actual fix is going to be riskier than we expected, and we want to take more time to make sure nothing explodes, so we're going to roll back the zones to the way they were until we can get the fix to live. We are aiming to have the zones back the way they were on Thursday.

Since I know it'll be the next question, the fix is going to function outwardly the same way things do right now. There are going to be a couple extra edge cases where you may get conflicting 30 minute lockout timers if you reset your old instances after the raid you want to join starts up their new instance. To combat those, we'll also be adding the ability to reset the 30 minute timers, as long as you haven't been locked to the zone (Which means it isn't a 30 minute timer anymore anyway).

Until the fix is in please don't exploit... Actually, even after the fix is in please don't exploit.

Thanks.

Thanks for wasting an entire raid night.  Thanks for once again jumping the gun on something without thinking of the in game consequences to your players.  Thanks for making me waste twice the time clearing trash this week.  Thanks for costing me loot and upgrades I'd normally get on Thursday when a normal Monday set PoW zone could have been reset and now can't.  And absolutely NO THANKS for figuring out how badly you screwed the pooch after the fact and now are trying to cover your butts.

It was so fun zoning back into zones on Monday time was spent clearing trash and clearing up to certain mobs only to see your FIX and zone back in on Tuesday to find them all reset and having to reclear all that crap again.  Way to go guys.

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Old 10-17-2012, 04:02 PM   #117
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

I have an update! The actual fix is going to be riskier than we expected, and we want to take more time to make sure nothing explodes, so we're going to roll back the zones to the way they were until we can get the fix to live. We are aiming to have the zones back the way they were on Thursday.

Since I know it'll be the next question, the fix is going to function outwardly the same way things do right now. There are going to be a couple extra edge cases where you may get conflicting 30 minute lockout timers if you reset your old instances after the raid you want to join starts up their new instance. To combat those, we'll also be adding the ability to reset the 30 minute timers, as long as you haven't been locked to the zone (Which means it isn't a 30 minute timer anymore anyway).

Until the fix is in please don't exploit... Actually, even after the fix is in please don't exploit.

Thanks.

LOL!!!!

Good luck on that.  More likely it's going to be farm city until the fix goes in. 

This is actually the worst way of handling it of all.  All you did was to call everyone's attention to the exploit.  Now just about every raid guild in the game knows about the exploit.

Want to make any side bets that more then a few take advantage of it?

Well I guess the good news is the price of SLR items is going to be coming down due to a glut on the market.

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Old 10-17-2012, 04:23 PM   #118
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Gilasil wrote:

Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Want to make any side bets that more then a few take advantage of it?

Well I guess the good news is the price of SLR items is going to be coming down due to a glut on the market.

Most will not, you realize how easy it would be for SoE to build a report of players that killed the same raid mob more times than possible in a 6 hour window?

Abuse it, and you make it worth the effort for them to find you and suffer a punishment.

And honestly,  none of us raids to do SLR, its just what we do with loot we have no other use for.

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Old 10-17-2012, 05:56 PM   #119
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Ulrichvon wrote:

Gilasil wrote:

Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

Want to make any side bets that more then a few take advantage of it?

Well I guess the good news is the price of SLR items is going to be coming down due to a glut on the market.

Most will not, you realize how easy it would be for SoE to build a report of players that killed the same raid mob more times than possible in a 6 hour window?

Abuse it, and you make it worth the effort for them to find you and suffer a punishment.

And honestly,  none of us raids to do SLR, its just what we do with loot we have no other use for.

When a substantial fraction of the playerbase exploits there's not much they can do.    I don't think I'm saying anything people don't already know. 

Of most of the raiders and raiding groups I know (not just raiders -- any players), the only times most wouldn't use a widely known exploit is when it wouldn't do them any good.  If that's the case  then yea there probably won't be much exploiting.  Otherwise, I still hold to the view that there won't be many raiders saying words to the effect "no, no, no, don't use that exploit even though it would help us. That would be wrong."  I just don't see it.

The time to crack down is when only a few are exploiting.

As for SLR.  Oh I think we're going to see an uptick on SLR auctions. 

And you CERTAINLY don't freaking ADVERTISE the existence of an exploit and then leave it in.

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Old 10-17-2012, 08:27 PM   #120
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Posts: 4,115
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What exactly was broken that they were trying to bandaid with the timer change?

Like many raiders who have already posted, we raid three nights a week: Fri, Sat, and Tues. We frequently wil work on a progression mob until people start getting cranky and lose focus, then drop back to other content that we can clear.  Because we know that the next raid night, we'll tackle that progression mob again.

I am totally in agreement with several other posters: ban, suspend, or slap the malarkey outta whoever has been doing whatever it is that they're not supposed to, and leave the rest of us alone on this one.

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