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Old 08-17-2010, 03:53 AM   #1
Neiloch

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Olihin wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Will there be any new pvp gear included in tomorrow's patch?

No. 

We are currently evaluating the Toughness stat.   There are also changes to Bows and 2Hand Weapons coming that should also yield some new results for players and we want to see how those change our game before adding new items.  

Olihin

This the supposed ranged flurry and auto AE? Seems kind of soon for 57 some how, even though we have been waiting forever heh. Just looks like in context with the player quote they are referring to GU 57, but I guess 'soon' could be any time in the future. Was just gonna wait and see but since the patch got pushed back a day I suppose some random conversation about it will provide a distraction.

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Old 08-17-2010, 04:20 AM   #2
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Pretty sure he didn't mean the bow changes will come with 57.  Saying they're coming could be this week, in a few weeks, in a few months, next year...

Although, I would imagine he was simply referring to what others have echoed from Fan Faire, some bow and 2-hander changes coming "hopefully" with the guardian changes or to be worked on after.  (Depending on whether you refer to only the mechanics panel or what a dude posted in the guardian thread, saying he talked to Xelgad.)

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Old 08-17-2010, 11:16 AM   #3
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Anyone know what the bow changes are? I know they're doing flurry and AE auto attack but I've heard people say they're removing the attack rating penalty and increasing damaging rating on bows as well. Just haven't seen anything yet other than rumors on the last two.

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Old 08-17-2010, 12:23 PM   #4
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akaglty wrote:

Anyone know what the bow changes are? I know they're doing flurry and AE auto attack but I've heard people say they're removing the attack rating penalty and increasing damaging rating on bows as well. Just haven't seen anything yet other than rumors on the last two.

I know a dev has said they will be bringing ranged flurry, but can anyone confirm that a dev said AE autoattack will be coming to ranged as well?

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Old 08-17-2010, 12:27 PM   #5
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They're going to make ranger an absolutely skilless class to play that simply requires turning on auto attack.  I'm going to lol @ ACT breakdowns showing 75%+ of your damage from auto attack.

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Old 08-17-2010, 02:05 PM   #6
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These changes were hinted at with the guard changes or shortly after (between gu57 and gu5SMILEY if things remain on schedule.  Which I'd be shocked it they did.

While I agree with Gaige's gibe about % of auto attack, I'm not sure what other changes you can make to allow rangers to get similar benefit from utility buffs without the net result being a bump to auto damage.

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Old 08-17-2010, 03:34 PM   #7
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Gaige wrote:

They're going to make ranger an absolutely skilless class to play that simply requires turning on auto attack.  I'm going to lol @ ACT breakdowns showing 75%+ of your damage from auto attack.

Either flurry and auto AE aren't going to boost our damage much or they are going to make our auto attack insanely higher. You make posts of flurry and ae auto not being a big deal if added and then this post, so I hope your joking heh. I still think the only reason they are really getting on top of it now is because Velious is going to have a lot more of these stats available for scouts, one way or another.

As for if they are putting in AE Auto as well:

Q:Any intention of applying flurry or ae auto attack to ranged attacks? Or if that's just too rediculous?

A: Actually there is and we intend to do that very soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTeM3bMiVl4

Very last question in the video. Suppose it could have gotten mixed in with since they confirmed flurry but he also asked about ae auto.

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Old 08-17-2010, 04:18 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

While I agree with Gaige's gibe about % of auto attack, I'm not sure what other changes you can make to allow rangers to get similar benefit from utility buffs without the net result being a bump to auto damage.

I don't care if they fix ae auto and flurry, the amounts a ranger can get will be next to meaningless.  I meant removing the bow damage penalty and increasing their spread. 

Instead of doing that they need to address ranger CAs, so the class will at least require a conscious to play.

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Old 08-17-2010, 04:23 PM   #9
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Wasn't aware that's what they were going to do to bows (and 2handers too I suppose). Where did they talk about this?

And I do agree I think we should be getting more damage from CA's (ranged CA's) instead of auto attack. I just wanted the same mechanics to apply to bows so its more of a level playing field, and frankly easier to balance things out.

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Old 08-17-2010, 04:43 PM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

Wasn't aware that's what they were going to do to bows (and 2handers too I suppose). Where did they talk about this?

It was mentioned at one of the mechanics panels that 2handers and bows would be looked at after guardian tweaks.

Gaige wrote:

I don't care if they fix ae auto and flurry, the amounts a ranger can get will be next to meaningless.  I meant removing the bow damage penalty and increasing their spread. 

Instead of doing that they need to address ranger CAs, so the class will at least require a conscious to play.

I agree CA's are a disporportionate amount of the class dps,  fixing CA's alone doesn't address what I think is the bigger issue of the class not able to take advantage of the same buffs to the same benefit as their counterpart.

As far as a conscious to play, neither predator to me feels very complicated, but yeah, I need to make fewer decisions on my ranger over assasin.  That being said, for whatever reason I enjoy the ranger more.  I'm probably a masochist.

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Old 08-17-2010, 11:44 PM   #11
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Assassins rely on stealth and a huge portion of our DPS relies on about 9 CAs, 8 of which require stealth.  If you use concealment at the wrong time and its interrupted, you're screwed.

Ranger is far, far easier to play.

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Old 08-18-2010, 12:26 AM   #12
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I'd agree with that, compared to one another ranger is easier, but I wouldn't call playing an assassin difficult in general.

I wouldn't be completely opposed to some mechanic being the way for more ranger DPS if its not ridiculously hard or just a stupid PITA. Wouldn't even mind the way they play now if the DPS was upped. What annoys me most is no matter what you do on a ranger, there's an assassin some where who can outparse you. The mathematical potential for ranger DPS just lower than assassin's and even some other classes.

I'll probably catch some grief for this but how difficult a class is to play shouldn't factor in on balance. If a class is harder to play than another and its of large concern the devs should be working to balance the difficulty out. Not reward the harder one or penalize the easier one. No one else is gonna give a crap if a class is easier to play when they're not the one playing it.

"his DPS is lower than the others don't invite him."

"Yeah but his class easier to play.

"Oh ok then invite him."

No, that won't happen.

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Old 08-18-2010, 08:41 PM   #13
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Fixing the underlying mechanics, including removing that stupid invisible damage nerf and bringing bow ratings in line with other two handers (and fixing two handers in general), is exactly the first step they need to make.

Even if it somehow ends up putting too much of our damage percentage back into auto attack, the underlying mechanics need to be fixed before they can start tweaking our CAs, or we're going to run face-first into this problem again down the road even if the CA tweaks were enough to get us back into T1 DPS. I really really really don't care which class is 'easier' to play, unless the difference becomes 'playground swings' and 'piloting a one winged plane to safety'. I want the classes to be balanced.

The danger of putting too much DPS into auto attack is the class being made or broken by a good bow, which was most of our problem in T7, where rangers with the absolute top end bows did great and rangers without those bows fell so far behind the DPS curve in their raid force--getting steady DPS upgrades the whole while--that holding onto a raid slot until they could get a shot at the mobs dropping the good bows was ridiculously difficult to justify. The danger is in autoattack being less controllable than CA damage, and the devs being terrified to make any tweaks lest the rangers at the very high end have their DPS fly off the charts. But I much prefer fixing these underlying mechanics issues and then making adjustments than letting the mechanics issues just sit forever.

A class being 'easymode' is mostly a bragging thing, and I reeeeally don't care who is getting digital internet fulfillment out of their class being zomg more difficult than some other class. No class in this game is what I'd consider terribly hard to play or learn. It's an MMO, not chess.

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Old 08-19-2010, 03:47 PM   #14
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kartikeya wrote:

Fixing the underlying mechanics, including removing that stupid invisible damage nerf and bringing bow ratings in line with other two handers (and fixing two handers in general), is exactly the first step they need to make.

While I generally agree and I think it is a huge step forward that the devs are willing to admit that Ranger's need a boost in DPS, I am a little concerned by one thing. When I group without good aggro transer (love them pally's) I have problems on trash pulls with aggro. The issue is the auto attack damage. Even when I wait until the mob is turned if I lead off with an auto attack or a short cast CA which is followed immediately by an auto attack, I will grab aggro very often.

The options I figured out were:

* Wait even longer before attacking* Cast a debuf first (not really that useful on trash) to slow down the auto attack* Lead off with a long cast CA like miracle shot or crippling arrow.

I have chose to do the last option but again it lowers my overall DPS. I am a bit concerned that with even more damage coming from auto attack that this problem with just get worse.

I do have a master of my deaggro buff (dont' remember the name) plus I run with 2 deaggro adornments.

By the way, this is not an issue at all solo or in raid for me.

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Old 08-19-2010, 04:20 PM   #15
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kartikeya wrote:

A class being 'easymode' is mostly a bragging thing, and I reeeeally don't care who is getting digital internet fulfillment out of their class being zomg more difficult than some other class. No class in this game is what I'd consider terribly hard to play or learn. It's an MMO, not chess.

I never implied that assassin was omg hard needs a college degree, I said timing your stealth CAs so as to ensure stealth isn't interrupted is in fact harder than turning auto attack on.

Do you disagree?

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Old 08-20-2010, 09:40 AM   #16
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Gaige wrote:

kartikeya wrote:

A class being 'easymode' is mostly a bragging thing, and I reeeeally don't care who is getting digital internet fulfillment out of their class being zomg more difficult than some other class. No class in this game is what I'd consider terribly hard to play or learn. It's an MMO, not chess.

I never implied that assassin was omg hard needs a college degree, I said timing your stealth CAs so as to ensure stealth isn't interrupted is in fact harder than turning auto attack on.

Do you disagree?

This is probably one of the main reasons why assassins are far ahead in parses. Assassins require (a little work...not much really once you figured it out) to time their stealth/chain attacks to achieve massive parses (assuming they don't get stun/stifle/whatever).

I do disagree (to a degree) with you that rangers are such ez mode. It makes me want to work harder in achieving better parses and find some ways that are not often thought of. Sure, everything evolves around autoattack with rangers, but ask yourself how many rangers actually do decent parsing these days? Not many really (out of the thousands of players).

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Old 08-20-2010, 09:56 AM   #17
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Gaige wrote:

kartikeya wrote:

A class being 'easymode' is mostly a bragging thing, and I reeeeally don't care who is getting digital internet fulfillment out of their class being zomg more difficult than some other class. No class in this game is what I'd consider terribly hard to play or learn. It's an MMO, not chess.

I never implied that assassin was omg hard needs a college degree, I said timing your stealth CAs so as to ensure stealth isn't interrupted is in fact harder than turning auto attack on.

Do you disagree?

To an extent, I agree that Assassins are a more technical class. But then again, they're also overloaded with so many innate bonuses that it's bordering on ludicrous. So, yeah. Concealment chains take a bit of skill. But parsing high on an Assassin (due to aforementioned innate abilities) isn't anything particularly special.

That said, I'd prefer they tweak us based on combat arts to deter this sort of nonsensical [Removed for Content]-stroking, but I'm not going to complain if they fix core mechanics first. Really, I'll take whatever I can get to be competitive at this point. When you're the squeaky wheel, you're not going to hold out specifically for WD-40 when someone's offering something that'll still make you squeak less.

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Old 08-20-2010, 12:59 PM   #18
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I've grouped with alot more fail rangers than I have assassins. One consistant thing with them it seems like is, they seem to rely to much on auto attack and don't put enough effort into trying to get as many of their CA's off in between autos as they can. I've looked at their parses and seeing 40-50% of their dps being auto attack right now is a very bad thing.

We're not horrible at AE dps either and I see to many blow stuff like Arrow Barrage on a single mob instead of waiting a bit to use it on a group of mobs. That's all part of learning a zone though to know when they're coming. But I've seen them do it one fight before a encounter pull is coming.

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Old 08-20-2010, 01:08 PM   #19
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Boise wrote:

I do disagree (to a degree) with you that rangers are such ez mode.

No no, my comparison is talking about how it will become after the bow changes are implemented, now how it currently is on live.

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Old 08-20-2010, 04:09 PM   #20
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I don't see why its such a huge problem to just up the damage on ranged CA's. Is it some sort of image problem? They don't want to give JUST rangers a boost so if they do it to bows it creates the idea that lots of scouts and fighters will benefit greatly? Yeah maybe in BG's a little... As for bow changes, kind of depends on the increase. If it's like the increase they did a while back to all weapons, don't see it becoming some huge increase in ezmode.

Would rather see a damage boost and reuse reduction in ranged CA's, but apparently that is a horrible idea when just about every ranger wants it and the devs won't even respond to it directly. Maybe they can slap some potency buffs on focus aim/nature's focus. Decent one on focus aim, another probably smaller one nature's focus for group, and they stack for the ranger so even better.

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Old 08-20-2010, 04:16 PM   #21
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Um, afaik bows have a 40% damage penalty so if they remove that and increase spreads, that'd be pretty huge.

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Old 08-20-2010, 04:24 PM   #22
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Wow yeah I'd say so lol. So a huge damage increase, along with being able to flurry and auto AE would be huge. I mean if we got flurry and ae now it wouldn't be a big deal, but with that kind of damage increase, geez.

Maybe part of their plan to ditch ammo, WoW and Rift are doing it heh. Rift also announced a Marksman soul/class. A purely bow based rogue class.

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Old 08-20-2010, 05:27 PM   #23
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Id still like to have our ca's fixed, i dont want my auto attack doing 50% of my dmg, i like actually working for my dps!

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Old 08-20-2010, 05:43 PM   #24
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Rangers have always been "balanced" around the hugh damage bows used to do, its the reason our CAs have always been the suck.

IMO unnerfing the bow damage is the fastest and easiest way of puting us back to when we used to compete for dps.

Now that said, I would rather have our CAs retuned to make the class more skill orianted than haveing auto attack do 50% of our dps. I personally think they dont want to spend the time in trying to retune our CAs. For one reason there is noone at $oE that has ANY clue on what Rangers were intended to do or how to actually fix our CAs, all the new guys see is the garbage of a class that we are now and a bunch of [Removed for Content] off Rangers blowing up there boards.

At this point I really dont care how they bring me inline with my counterpart like I used to be. And any fix that closes that gap is a bonus. Im pretty sick and tired of the 4yr battle or trying to get them to fix my class.

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Old 08-20-2010, 06:13 PM   #25
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Well sounds like another step is fixing base mechanics. Getting rid of weird penalties and exemptions, BS like that. If it ends up being OP'd it will be bittersweet, more DPS like we wanted but done in the simplest most mindless way. Its just unfortunate the DPS boost is from auto attack rather than CA's for more skill oriented DPS. But like Venez said, we are well overdue for a boost and I'm not going to say no.

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Old 08-20-2010, 07:03 PM   #26
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Greetings, Mighty Forces!
 
AE Auto-Attack and Flurry are indeed on the way for bows.  We're also removing the 20% damage penalty for bows, and we're increasing the damage rating on all 81-90 bows (along with throwing weapons) by about 10%.  The intent is to allow you guys to get full benefit from buffs and gear, not to make the class entirely focused on Auto-Attack.
You know how you get more auto-attack damage from your melee weapons in many cases than from your bow? These changes should fix that, unless your melee weapons are simply of much higher quality than your bow.  At most, your auto-attack may jump from ~20% of your parse up to ~30% on raids, but I'd be surprised if many people end up with it higher than that.
Thanks for all of your feedback.
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:03 PM   #27
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Sorry, late response.

I disagree that the level of difficulty between the two classes (which is nothing to write home about) should interfere with fixing the core mechanics problems. Or that it is a major balance concern when compared to everything else (that is, obviously, we shouldn't just be able to turn on auto attack and leave the keyboard). Assassins have more button mashing and more timing because of stealth chains, but the difference isn't that dramatic, and assassins have an easier time of doing more DPS than rangers, even if it's more difficult for them to do absolute top DPS. As someone said, unless the difference is extremely dramatic, that boils down mostly to [Removed for Content] waving than anything else. Oooh, you're doing good DPS but only because you're playing ezmode class, hurrhurrhurr, look at my l33t skillz. I don't give a crap about that.

Rangers have ALWAYS been screwed with when it comes to core mechanics. In DoF it made us gods, but it wasn't our combat arts or our playstyle that made us so powerful, it was ridiculously broken proc mechanics. Since DoF it has, in various ways, contributed to the class's issues, whether it's bow auto attack damage being so powerful with a good bow that the devs don't dare fix the weak CAs, arrow mechanics, missing mechanics for ranged such as flurry or AE auto attack, the list goes on and on.

I would love, love for them to just get right down to it and fix combat arts tomorrow. I am very very tired of being a badly broken class. I also worry that they'll fix whatever mechanics they see as broken then say 'welp, rangers are fixed, see the big numbers with a super high end bow? Our job is done' and then continue to ignore the imbalances in the actual class as opposed to bow mechanics.

However, we really need those mechanics fixed. And we need them fixed right, and first. Fun as it was to have ridiculous mechanics on our side in DoF, I have absolutely no desire to see a nerf like we got in KoS over it. And remember, our class was actually boosted a bit for KoS, we were that broken when they fixed procs.

The hidden flat 30% nerf to bow damage or whatever Aeralik slapped on is ridiculous and should never, ever have been put in, especially during a mechanics fix that was supposedly meant to get rid of hidden math like that. That needs to be removed first. If for some reason we need a 30% bow damage nerf, then they need to apply that to the bows themselves, or somehow make it visible. We need flurry and AE autoattack of some sort. The only reason we don't have it is because the coding for it was apparently daunting, not any sort of balance reasons. Quite frankly, ammunition and minimum range need to go too, I don't care how ranged they make us, but I doubt that will ever get changed. Frankly, I want us roughly on par with the auto attack DPS percentages of other scouts and our combat arts boosted so that we don't go back to a T7 situation, but base mechanics need to be untangled first, otherwise any balancing done is being done over the top of mechanics that are still completely screwed up, and fixing them after may well send us spiraling down again.

And sure, we need a teensy bit of utility like the other T1 classes have, but as much as, again, I'd like that, this needs to be the concern addressed last in the priority list. First lets get us actually able to compete in DPS again.

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Old 08-20-2010, 07:09 PM   #28
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Xelgad wrote:

Greetings, Mighty Forces!
 
AE Auto-Attack and Flurry are indeed on the way for bows.  We're also removing the 20% damage penalty for bows, and we're increasing the damage rating on all 81-90 bows (along with throwing weapons) by about 10%.  The intent is to allow you guys to get full benefit from buffs and gear, not to make the class entirely focused on Auto-Attack.
You know how you get more auto-attack damage from your melee weapons in many cases than from your bow? These changes should fix that, unless your melee weapons are simply of much higher quality than your bow.  At most, your auto-attack may jump from ~20% of your parse up to ~30% on raids, but I'd be surprised if many people end up with it higher than that.
Thanks for all of your feedback.

<3 <3 <3

Please see my above concerns RE: the balance of auto attack versus combat arts. The reason this was a problem and I worry about it being a problem again is because it led to rangers either being comparable T1 DPS or bottoming out and losing raid slots solely due to their bow, and it also resulted in the devs being afraid to adjust anything about rangers lest the top parsing rangers go flying off into the DPSing stratosphere at the slightest adjustment. (The general terribleness of bow itemization at the time meant you would do fine at entry tier raid zones, start bottoming out near the end of that, become terrible at mid-tier raids, and couldn't get a bow that would allow you to compete until your raid was doing top tier content, at which point everyone else had passed you by so far that you were likely sitting during these encounters unless you were the raid leader or your raid was very very understanding.)

That's a concern that comes after this though. I just hope you guys keep it in mind, but I am very very thankful to hear what you've got planned! (please let the changes come soon).

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Old 08-20-2010, 07:18 PM   #29
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Xelgad wrote:

Greetings, Mighty Forces!
 
AE Auto-Attack and Flurry are indeed on the way for bows.  We're also removing the 20% damage penalty for bows, and we're increasing the damage rating on all 81-90 bows (along with throwing weapons) by about 10%.  The intent is to allow you guys to get full benefit from buffs and gear, not to make the class entirely focused on Auto-Attack.
You know how you get more auto-attack damage from your melee weapons in many cases than from your bow? These changes should fix that, unless your melee weapons are simply of much higher quality than your bow.  At most, your auto-attack may jump from ~20% of your parse up to ~30% on raids, but I'd be surprised if many people end up with it higher than that.
Thanks for all of your feedback.

I love you again. Yes, yes. I am fickle. I guess this begs... ETA? SMILEY

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Old 08-20-2010, 07:19 PM   #30
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Sydares wrote:

Xelgad wrote:

Greetings, Mighty Forces!
 
AE Auto-Attack and Flurry are indeed on the way for bows.  We're also removing the 20% damage penalty for bows, and we're increasing the damage rating on all 81-90 bows (along with throwing weapons) by about 10%.  The intent is to allow you guys to get full benefit from buffs and gear, not to make the class entirely focused on Auto-Attack.
You know how you get more auto-attack damage from your melee weapons in many cases than from your bow? These changes should fix that, unless your melee weapons are simply of much higher quality than your bow.  At most, your auto-attack may jump from ~20% of your parse up to ~30% on raids, but I'd be surprised if many people end up with it higher than that.
Thanks for all of your feedback.

I love you again. Yes, yes. I am fickle. I guess this begs... ETA?

Hopefully with the Guardian changes in a few weeks.

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