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Old 08-16-2011, 04:31 AM   #31
Emerica

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There is alot that this class needs to have to it. I am a fairly new player, about a month-5 weeks into playing. I cant really comment on the problem with raiding, ive yet to do it in this game.

I can tell there is a huge difference already between how the tank classes perform. Problem one should probably have been noticed by the devs when there is like 5 people on each server that actively play a paladin. Raiding/grouping/instances.

The only thing i can really relate to at this point is that this class needs help. The hate generation and loss of aggro on these mem bluring mobs is really just annoying. You could have a solid group and be fine but the moment we space out all of the taunt and snaps that we can, and we are waiting on reuse and this happens, aggro and threat generation just destroys us till the only spell ive noticed that even works on this (holy ground, go figure) pops back up. I saw the comments on survivability, i kind of chose this class because it was suppose to be one of the best at it. The other tanks seem to get a ton more perks than i do. I dont play any other class so i cant compare this is just from the perspective of a new player. I kinda wanna trade my new car in for a newer car already. Hopefully something is being done about that.

Like i said i havnt been playing long but i can push buttons pretty ok. The ward and heals are useless even to a pally with full rygorr just doing instances to get to the raiding content. I can only imagine a bottle of advil to help the headache of a raid with the poor versitility this class experiences.

The aa choices are pretty bad for the most part too and dont seem to be thought out in a linear mindset. You guys want us to scale through and pick certain trees that have half of the tree making no sense to anyone why its there. I however heard this stuff was being looked at and since i dont play in test, ill keep holding out on this portion of the class.

I know the things here might have been said but as an active paladin i want to help, and even i can see that something is wrong in contrast to the other tank and defensive classes.

Thanks.

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Old 08-16-2011, 11:27 AM   #32
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This was mentioned in the other thread but I will paraphrase it here

Paladin

  • Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.

Does nothing for us, even if it was 20% per point and returning it to its pre nerf power cost it is NOT WORTH the AA investment except to use it to cap out the reuse (2 / 5 points myself).

  • Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.

As above does NOTHING for us; if paladins have power proc items on we are either a: have enough power or b: don't have enough power (power drain fights) reducing the power cost on heals fixes nothing. Yes paladins are a power hungry class but this is resolved with the advent of power proc gear/clickies/potions.

  • Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.

This debuff will expire and will no longer be active on the paladin as soon as the ward is used up; which in rougher fights is often less than a second. Likewise a ~1.2k debuff which expires early and costs 5 AA is an investment not many paladins will make. Especially as mitigation debuffs can be capped out pretty easily.

And the biggest joke of them all:

  • Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.

Completely useless. There is NO WAY in any conceivable situation that having intercede (1m 40s duration) expire naturally on someone withotu having triggered and who actually needs a heal.

 Cast Intercede on Scout

> Intercede procs and paladin takes damage> scout doesn't get hit (and thus on full health) and is then healed for 0.> Scout has reduced health and we cast intercede on them; 1m40s later it expires and we heal hem. not being healed for 1m40s when we ourselves have several heals is just not going to happen... EVER.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I wrote a quick writeup on the paladin AA choices but I feel I may have to do this again.

Sometimes I feel as if you are bing "too careful" over every aspect of the Paladin class partly because its flaws (and it does have *many*) are not very apparant until later in the game and at higher level are absolutely crippling.

The principle behind the paladin is a "tank who heals" but the so-called hybrid of tank healer often means we are shoe horned into taking lackluster abilities as "flavour".

The core principle of the paladin is a TANK; and our primary means of defence is "divine" or healer-like; but nearly all of our abilities require us to TAKE damage before we can actualy heal it. As it stands now the "official stance" of paladins is they can heal damage spikes they take; but we cannot heal if we have already died from the damage. A 60k health paladin who gets kicked in the nuts for 70k doesn't stand up later and use his 30k heal; he waits for a rez just like the rest of his raid who he failed to protect.

In herioc or solo terms you simply do not take enough damage to kill you in under a second but in raids you do... and have to take this damage regually.

We are not askign for much; just a way to avoid being kicked in the nuts in he first place... leave our balls alone!

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Old 08-16-2011, 12:20 PM   #33
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Stonewall should be changed to a stoneskin.

Both Crusaders would benefit from it, and it is a reasonable gain that does not impact class balance.

unless SK get stonewall in something other then the Shadows tree that isn't a shared ability,

Divine Aura is the shared Save and all that would need to change is the less then 50% health limitation

Wow, I appologize, one too many pain meds yesterday =/

Stonewall should be a stoneskin, the SK myth click should be changed to work on all damage types.  I sorta blurred 2 issues together there.

DA could be changed and the limitation removed, but the durration/triggers would have to be adjusted significantly.  Id DA was tweaked then none of the above changes would be warranted

It is actually important that not too much is done here.  Either crusader class should have the abilities to block/avoid every other significant damage spike.  So a prevent that can be min/maxed to useable every ~  1:15 is needed.  An additional emergency that can be reduced to a ~2:30 reuse should also be included. 

The classes add alot via their hybrid nature that I would not favor giving them the ability to prevent every damage spike, but with some coordination from other classes, and some skill, they should be able to perform the task when needed to.  When you look at how many different ways a stoneskin or prevent can be provided from other classes, it is not difficult to coordinate for success.

I do not believe a hybrid class should be given every tool to raid MT on their own.  Any class given such tools should have little utility beyond that task.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for that opinion though SMILEY

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Old 08-16-2011, 12:29 PM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:

I do not believe a hybrid class should be given every tool to raid MT on their own.  Any class given such tools should have little utility beyond that task.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for that opinion though

Paladins are not a hybrid class, we are a tank with fluff heals which outside of a few unique circumstances do little mroe than making us feel better when we accept our rez.

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Old 08-16-2011, 12:47 PM   #35
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Stonewall should be changed to a stoneskin.

Both Crusaders would benefit from it, and it is a reasonable gain that does not impact class balance.

unless SK get stonewall in something other then the Shadows tree that isn't a shared ability,

Divine Aura is the shared Save and all that would need to change is the less then 50% health limitation

Wow, I appologize, one too many pain meds yesterday =/

Stonewall should be a stoneskin, the SK myth click should be changed to work on all damage types.  I sorta blurred 2 issues together there.

DA could be changed and the limitation removed, but the durration/triggers would have to be adjusted significantly.  Id DA was tweaked then none of the above changes would be warranted

It is actually important that not too much is done here.  Either crusader class should have the abilities to block/avoid every other significant damage spike.  So a prevent that can be min/maxed to useable every ~  1:15 is needed.  An additional emergency that can be reduced to a ~2:30 reuse should also be included. 

The classes add alot via their hybrid nature that I would not favor giving them the ability to prevent every damage spike, but with some coordination from other classes, and some skill, they should be able to perform the task when needed to.  When you look at how many different ways a stoneskin or prevent can be provided from other classes, it is not difficult to coordinate for success.

I do not believe a hybrid class should be given every tool to raid MT on their own.  Any class given such tools should have little utility beyond that task.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for that opinion though

I am actually going to agree with you. IF a tank has more utility then the other then they should not be a stand alone tank that can do it all. However atm the only true utility we were given is the ability to heal and that has been shot down to near nothing (and to be honest most are okay with heals only 1 time per minute). The direct heals at this point are (I'm guessing here) working exactly as intended for the class. Warriors mitigate more damage to control health spike, Brawlers avoid the damage and Crusaders help heal themselves.

As Boli and several others have mentioned, most of the ability to do that in heroic content works just fine (I love it actually) but we are on the lacking side when it comes to performing that job in the end game.

The Stonewall and Myth clicky pared with fixing divine aura would fix both classes in this area. However if you wanted to keep the over all "flavor" of the class you could give us a decent ward on a good recast that can do the trick. (SK would have to be some kind of magic shield or something along those lines)

 In other words the extra flavor of all the tanks are intended for one major goal and that is to tank. The heals and extra utility that is spoken of from the crusader stand point is literally just our way to do the exact same job that all tanks are supposed to do. 

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:04 PM   #36
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Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins -- I say this is where the spike issues can be best addressed with a great sense of balence.  I think it should be a shield block ability (100% mit) that can be quickly recasted but at a significant power cost each cast (100p @ level 10, 3,000p @ level 90)

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:11 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins -- I say this is where the spike issues can be best addressed with a great sense of balence.  I think it should be a shield block ability (100% mit) that can be quickly recasted but at a significant power cost each cast (100p @ level 10, 3,000p @ level 90)

wait... you mean like stone wall...

a block only works against physical damage and will not work against the AoE's, please read the posts.

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:13 PM   #38
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[email protected] wrote:

Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins

You wouldn't classify amends, lay on hands, fighter cures, and to a smaller degree devout scrament all in that category?  I appreciate that other classes have been given 'lite' versions of some of these, and maybe brawlers a little too much, but the ability to hold hate with significantly less effort than other fighters has to be figured in atleast some small portion to the class uniqueness.

To gain something else, I'm afraid something would likely need to be sacrificed.

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:22 PM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins

You wouldn't classify amends, lay on hands, fighter cures, and to a smaller degree devout scrament all in that category?  I appreciate that other classes have been given 'lite' versions of some of these, and maybe brawlers a little too much, but the ability to hold hate with significantly less effort than other fighters has to be figured in atleast some small portion to the class uniqueness.

To gain something else, I'm afraid something would likely need to be sacrificed.

they are actually, and the only one of those that does not scale properly would be lay on hands as it does not crit any longer. Cures, amends and devout sacrament are working great and are a unique part of the class =)

as for giving some of it up, I would trade lay on hands and 20% of my amends just to gain a 3 hit stone skin on a reasonable recast.

Thats a steap trade but one I personally would be happy to do and I speak only for myself.

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Old 08-16-2011, 05:12 PM   #40
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Suggestions to adjusting paladins AA's (and some spells). Some of these are my own ideas and some are other peoples ideas who i agree with,

Crusader Tree:

Combat Leadership - Damage amount needs to be doubled or tripled.

Int Line

  1. Legonaire's Mercy needs to go (will adress this a bit later). The heal amount is basically useless for a SK.
  2. Replace Legonaire's Mercy with something like increase +Spell Skills (Disruption / ministration / ordination / sujugation) by 10 points per rank. This would then cap at 100  to those which helps offset the future lack of +spell skill on tank gear to keep us somewhat in line with the bottom end of our spell damage. This should be a passive ability so it is self only.
  3. Legonaire's Focus - This should be changed to modifies Legonarie's Conviction's reuse. So the full 8 points spent into it turns Legonaire's Convition into a 1 min 30 sec recast (you can keep LC as a non modifiable by reuse except by direct means which this aa would be a direct mean).

Paladin Tree:

Healing Line

  1. The reducing of power on our heals is as mentioned laughable. and needs to be changed.
  2. Enhance: Demonstration of Faith - Change this to MIT reduc not Arcane reduc and have its duration 20 - 30 seconds. (someone mentioned 24 which is fine as well).
  3. Enhance: Lay on Hands - Change it so that each tank adds a ward to Lay on Hands. This will go into helping offset the use of it if you are just a bit to slow and you get heal off after healers heal you. Have the ward be pretty sizable as well because with raid gear 2 points put it at reuse cap. So have the ward be 20 - 25k. It is on a 2 min 30 sec reuse after 5 points so that is not that big of a deal but it can help.
  4. Enhance: Devout Sacrament - someone mentioned to have it convert its non heal damage into a ward i think that would be too powerful as it would have a 45 second reuse at cap and a 20 - 25k ward every 45 seconds is a bit to much (as you could just spam it when its up). I suggest have it put a buff on us that reduces damage from all types 1 - 2% per rank that lasts for 5 - 10 seconds. So at 5 ranks into it you get a buff that lasts 5 to 10 seconds and reduces all damage by 5 to 10% (duration and % value can be determined for balance issues).
  5. Arch Healing - Two options. The first is to Turn it into what 10 rank Legonarie's Mercy currently is. That is increase heal amount by 10% of strength and increase ele/nox/arcane by 2040 (GROUP BUFF), if you made it into a self buff than it would need to be increase heal amount by 50% of strength / 3 - 5k resist. OR turn it into a 2 or 3 hit STONESKIN on a reasonable recast. 

Enhance: Intercept - Again as pointed out the heal after expires is LAUGHABLE as its near 2 min duration. TBH dont know what could be done to add to it i have a couple ideas but i dont know how the ywork with balance.

  • Idea 1 - 10% / rank. So at 5 ranks into it change it so that on a sucessful intercept caster takes 50% of the damage and target takes 0% of the damage. This is prob WAY to powerful though. Basically so when the paladin casts it they dont eat the entire aoe.
  • Idea 2 - At 5 ranks into it increase the trigger amount by 1 (so 2 triggers if over 50% health and 3 triggers if under 50% health). Though this may be bad because it could kill the paladin.
  • Idea 3 - 1k -1.6k / rank. So at 5 ranks into it target recieves a 5 - 8k ward on it landing. The ward can't be too big because it would be at a 15 sec recast. Paladins also cant cast this on themselves so it cant be used to solo instances or anything like that. However it can possibly offset the damage that would go to the paladin.
  • Idea 4 - At 5 ranks. When a sucessful intercept happens than it increases the paladins threat position by 1 towards the target that the damage was intercepted from. This would act like a psudo snap. The issue would be recast is 15 seconds (min) so thats theoretically 1 hate position every 15 seconds which may be considered OP. Though we have to absorb damage to get that hate position. If 1 hate position is too much than have it increase threat amount bo 50k or so. This is not to powerful either as if we spam our single target threat spell (3 times is about 17 seconds worth) would give us between 30 - 35k threat. So 35k threat vs 50k threat in a similar amount of time (17 seconds vs 15 seconds) is not that much considering spaming single target threat does little  for hate.

Devout Faith - This NEEDS to be changed to properly increase the ward amount of Demonstration of Faith by 20% OR change its text to say increase ward amount by 6.7%. It is a mechanics thing that our ward only recieves 1/3 potency that is fine. However the spell does NOT do what it SAYS it does. It needs changing.

Shadows Tree:

Stonewall - This (and every fighter temp melee avoid buffs) needs to be given strikethrough immunity. JUST on the ability itself so that it does what it says it does.

Spells:

Myth Clicky - This needs to become one of 2 things. 1 a proper stoneskin, or 2 another snap that increases positions by 3 - 5 points. In either case you would need to adjust the reuse timer on it. It also would depend on what you would do with the other stuff suggested.

Holy Ground - IF you do not change the myth clicky into a hate position increase OR give us some other snap than the initial snap amount needs to be increased to 3 to 5 on this spell. If we are given another snap and stoneskin than this spell is fine.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:25 PM   #41
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Keeping saves on topic is important, but they did just give us LC on a 2 minute recast. If we keep talking about saves, they might get the impression that we just haven't tested the application of having it 33% more often.

We still need utility. Tanks are expected to live, and nobody really cares how or why it happens. However, most classes contribute something else to the raid that people DO care about. Paladins do not.

Our raidwide mit buff is unimportant, unless you're considering the tanking the raid does while the pally is dead from not having saves.

Heretic's Destruction parses out to be extremely insignificant, especially compared to shadowknights or brawler temps. 15% potency and Crit bonus for 10 seconds every 120 seconds (Check my math, but isn't that equivalent to a constant 1.25 cb/pot?), compared to 1.3% potency permanently on our raidwide, and that ISN'T EVEN AN ENDLINE.

Also, our raid wide gives 5% heal amount.. what.

Our transfers as "deaggro" utility don't actually help since the only time tanks lose aggro is to memwipes.

Our heals are now self oriented besides our group heal, which does so little it's hardly worth consideration.

I don't see our class having any desireable utility at all. Our 1.3% raidwide potency or whatever is probably the best thing we've got.If you do the math and divide the potency and crit bonus out over the recast, it turns out to be only slightly better.

I just don't know what our class is supposed to be I guess. I know what I want it to be, and I know what it needs to be to do what is expected of me, but I get the feeling SOE doesn't want it to be that way so we're just stuck in balance limbo like the american middle class.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:33 PM   #42
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I read here and there that amend is useless due to cap on hate modifier. It's not my experience.

According to me sceal of heroism and amend are not hate modifiers they are transfers. For me a modifier is either coming from AAs (one of the crusader column provides it), adornments, buf (coercer enraged behavior, or sympathic group aura). 

So i don't really understand why paladins (more expert than me) claim sentences like "amend actually transfert 2% due to caps" and so on.  My paladin is not well geared and i have no issue keeping the agro over an assassin or a dirge fully equiped with raid gear. My experience is that berzerkers do have much more problems.

I consider sigil/amend as  very powerfull tools, but i may simply lack knowledge on hate transferts.

+> not derailing the trail but someone just mentionned those 2 spells as being huge assets, and i agree but i read opposite opinions many times.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:40 PM   #43
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Maergoth wrote:

Our raidwide mit buff is unimportant,

Also, our raid wide gives 5% heal amount.. what.

As a raid leader I put some value on both of these.  The difference on the trauma aoe damage on squishies is noticeable with and without the raid-wide.

You conveniently left out the ability to group cure your party when under control effects.

You also left out the classes immunity to some controls + the break out to controls + single target curing healers susceptible to those control effects.

I find all these abilities, particularly when well used and coordinated rather valuable.  And are contributing factors to why we run a Paladin OT over a Berserker or SK.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:42 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

So i don't really understand why paladins (more expert than me) claim sentences like "amend actually transfert 2% due to caps" and so on.

50% hate transfer cap.  If you build a group that has other transfer classes in it, the paladin amends isn't particularly amazing.  It all depends on your group makeup what % utilization you will see from amends.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:52 PM   #45
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Zealous Smite and Aura of the Crusader are both Crusader shared, so he didn't leave out anything.

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Old 08-16-2011, 09:14 PM   #46
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Except, you can't spec for cures while being able to survive (Manawall)

and no matter how much you appreciate something as a raid leader doesn't mean it provides tangible, significant gain. Sorry, 5% heals is insignificant.. especially when every healer has like 200 potency.

Aura of the Crusader is a tank tool or an aggro tool, NOT UTILITY. If you get stunned, you break it, and you don't die. Or, you get stunned, you break it, and you hold aggro. You don't get stunned, break it, and make anyone else smile.

As for being able to cure others, this is so incredibly situational. There aren't many if ANY situations where I can just stunbreak, and cure a healer who is stunned or stifled, etc. Even if that situation miraculously arises, it would be absurd to rely on that happening as a means of success.

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Old 08-17-2011, 10:38 AM   #47
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We're a defensive tank that is supposed to be equivelent to, or slightly behind a Guardian tanking ability (we actually don't know, the developers never told us the tank roles).  Yet we have the 2nd lowest level of proactive damage mitigation of all tanks.  We have our myth buff that only covers 10% incoming damage (the other 10% is completely reactive as we have to be damaged first) our ward that may cover 6K to 10K if we're lucky.  Stoneskin which only works on melee and can be struckthrough and Divine Aura which only covers damage below 50% of our max health.

I have no problem being a reactive tank mitigating damage after it happens, however, when we're getting one-shotted by mobs and thereby negating our reactive abilities completely being the 2nd most defensive tank, something is seriously wrong.

We either need more serious proactive damage mitigation abilities or we need our armor mitigation curve (strikethough resistance) seriously increased.

Some Ideas I'd "like" to see.

Arch heal should be equivilent to another lay-of-hands healing 100% health and power on a 5 min timer since everything we have to protect ourselves with involves power aside from the myth buff.

Our group heal should be a reactive heal of 3 to 5 triggers with an increase of 50% to 100% it's current value.

Holy Ground should be reverted back to RoK pre-nerf increasing 24 hate positions for 12 seconds.

Stonewall and Divine aura changed to 100% damage absorption and strikethrough immunity for 8 and 10 seconds respectively on the same time scales as current.

Strikethrough resistances added to all tanks stances not just pallys. (or DX stances all together they're really rather pointless at this point in the game).

Pledge of Armorment should be changed to a raid-wide crit mit buff.

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Old 08-17-2011, 12:00 PM   #48
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Raidwide crit mit buff wouldn't be beneficial, it's so easy to cap crit mit it's unbelievable. The mitigation value is also fine, in fact.. that's one ability I'm not concerned about.

However, our adornments / armor focuses are where our class lacks largely.

None of them are desirable and even the sigil focus which has the most promise is only 20% mitigation, instead of damage reduction or numerical amount. Normally % based stuff is fine, but from the mage group where we find ourselves more often than not, 20% mitigation is like.. 1 or 2% mit for the group.

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Old 08-17-2011, 02:55 PM   #49
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Maergoth wrote:

Raidwide crit mit buff wouldn't be beneficial, it's so easy to cap crit mit it's unbelievable. The mitigation value is also fine, in fact.. that's one ability I'm not concerned about.

However, our adornments / armor focuses are where our class lacks largely.

None of them are desirable and even the sigil focus which has the most promise is only 20% mitigation, instead of damage reduction or numerical amount. Normally % based stuff is fine, but from the mage group where we find ourselves more often than not, 20% mitigation is like.. 1 or 2% mit for the group.

I take it you dont raid hard mode, where every adorn you have has to be crit mit almost. and then Drunder HM where you are still short? Crit mit is only super easy to cap for lower end guilds doing easy stuff.

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Old 08-17-2011, 03:33 PM   #50
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Dark_fairy wrote:

I take it you dont raid hard mode

I lol'd, I'm pretty sure he raids more HM than you.

Pledge should give like 5% crit mit though, along with the mit it already gives, just because SKs get 5CB debuff.

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Old 08-17-2011, 05:36 PM   #51
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I have raided everything, and I'm kind of upset my reputation doesn't precede me.

Everyone in our guild is fully crit mit adorned, and we have plenty of crit mit for the new zones. Yes, it would assist in breaking content you have no business doing, but it would be absolutely useless for 90% of the content in the game. There are very few fights (one or two currently feasible) that require gratuitous amounts of critical mitigation, and they're the first two named in Sullons.

The others shouldn't even be attempted, and zone definitely not cleared until hardmode statue is on farm status. The BPs will give enough extra crit mit to make up for every single adornment, 20+ from BP alone, and it will be fine.

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Old 08-17-2011, 06:00 PM   #52
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[email protected] wrote:

We're a defensive tank that is supposed to be equivelent to, or slightly behind a Guardian tanking ability (we actually don't know, the developers never told us the tank roles).  Yet we have the 2nd lowest level of proactive damage mitigation of all tanks.  We have our myth buff that only covers 10% incoming damage (the other 10% is completely reactive as we have to be damaged first) our ward that may cover 6K to 10K if we're lucky.  Stoneskin which only works on melee and can be struckthrough and Divine Aura which only covers damage below 50% of our max health.

I have no problem being a reactive tank mitigating damage after it happens, however, when we're getting one-shotted by mobs and thereby negating our reactive abilities completely being the 2nd most defensive tank, something is seriously wrong.

We either need more serious proactive damage mitigation abilities or we need our armor mitigation curve (strikethough resistance) seriously increased.

Some Ideas I'd "like" to see.

Arch heal should be equivilent to another lay-of-hands healing 100% health and power on a 5 min timer since everything we have to protect ourselves with involves power aside from the myth buff.

Our group heal should be a reactive heal of 3 to 5 triggers with an increase of 50% to 100% it's current value.

Holy Ground should be reverted back to RoK pre-nerf increasing 24 hate positions for 12 seconds.

Stonewall and Divine aura changed to 100% damage absorption and strikethrough immunity for 8 and 10 seconds respectively on the same time scales as current.

Strikethrough resistances added to all tanks stances not just pallys. (or DX stances all together they're really rather pointless at this point in the game).

Pledge of Armorment should be changed to a raid-wide crit mit buff.

this is almost entirely comprised of over the top suggestions... And I am a raiding pali...

add a potency buff to amends... would give the scout or mage that is jacked into being in the OT or MT group a reason to want to be there as apposed to a more dps focussed group. Tada some useful utility I would even go so far as to say you could trade the transfer % for that Potency (or crit bonus would be better imo) as this has always been a bit of a peeve for the other tanks who have a bit harder time with agro as a whole. Losing 20% of that to give 20% CB or Pot to the person recieving that buff would fix this and give some extra "want" for a paladin.

The change to our reflect allowing it to be cast every two minutes is a actually a great change that will help us perform our role as a tank in raids without over powering that ability. One more way to at least lower the damage of an aoe that can one shot us would be close to on par with the other tanks. Easily done by changing Devout Sacrament or Lay on Hands to a ward that wards around 25K (increasing the recast if it is devout sacrament naturally). No we will not have stoneskins like some of the other tanks but really that is why we have heals (or life taps for the sk). We don't prevent all the damage because we can realistically help to bring the health back to full when it is lost. This is a simple change to the type of healing ability and just a trade off in the form of total healing in the case of Lay on Hands or a bit longer recast for devout sacrament.

As a paladin we have a much harder time with mem wiping mobs... Simply adding another possition to holy ground (to make it on par with the SK positionals in aoe). We would still realistically be lacking in the snap taunts area but this would just wind up being the weakest area for the paladin as we can hold normal agro better then the rest. Constant agro vs snap agro /shrug

If we want real changes to be made we need doable suggestions. I have no issues giving up some of what we do for these changes.

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Old 08-17-2011, 07:17 PM   #53
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The fact of the matter is, some mobs will always one-shot. Reflect or not, it happens. To be able to stoneskin, no matter how short duration, is still important. Manawall is the solution to this. It really is. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep your mana up on some of these fights.

There's no reason we have to be the only tank who can't deal with that, whilst having no snap aggro or utility/dps. It sounds unfair when worded like that, but it is unfair. Don't try and sugar coat it. We are scraping by with bare minimums in not just the highest end of situations, but almost all situations.

Breaking content: Paladins lack. We don't have the snaps to prevent deaths to memwipes, we don't have the survivability to live through one-shotting AOEs or death touches, and we don't have utility to maximize raid DPS when it matters most.

Trivialized content: Again, memwipes still wreck us. Except, scouts can take a few hits, usually until the mob dies. Wait, if the Paladin can't snap the mob back, and the DPS can tank.. why bring the paladin? Unlike other tanks, we don't DPS well under any circumstances. Nor do we allow other people to do so. Even on the fun, all out burn fights in easymode content, people SIGH OVER VENTRILO when the paladin is in their group instead of the SK. Do any other tanks even grasp how demoralizing that is? Does ANY CLASS in this game understand that? Monks may remember that feeling, but that feeling is why they boosted monks.

All other content is a grey area between the two.

Hello SOE, I'm a Paladin, and my class needs to be desirable.

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Old 08-18-2011, 11:37 AM   #54
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No updates lately in any department, just a little concerning. Really hope for the proper changes before the next GU, doubt they will do anything drastic in between major patches.

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Old 08-18-2011, 12:28 PM   #55
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

We're a defensive tank that is supposed to be equivelent to, or slightly behind a Guardian tanking ability (we actually don't know, the developers never told us the tank roles).  Yet we have the 2nd lowest level of proactive damage mitigation of all tanks.  We have our myth buff that only covers 10% incoming damage (the other 10% is completely reactive as we have to be damaged first) our ward that may cover 6K to 10K if we're lucky.  Stoneskin which only works on melee and can be struckthrough and Divine Aura which only covers damage below 50% of our max health.

I have no problem being a reactive tank mitigating damage after it happens, however, when we're getting one-shotted by mobs and thereby negating our reactive abilities completely being the 2nd most defensive tank, something is seriously wrong.

We either need more serious proactive damage mitigation abilities or we need our armor mitigation curve (strikethough resistance) seriously increased.

Some Ideas I'd "like" to see.

Arch heal should be equivilent to another lay-of-hands healing 100% health and power on a 5 min timer since everything we have to protect ourselves with involves power aside from the myth buff.

Our group heal should be a reactive heal of 3 to 5 triggers with an increase of 50% to 100% it's current value.

Holy Ground should be reverted back to RoK pre-nerf increasing 24 hate positions for 12 seconds.

Stonewall and Divine aura changed to 100% damage absorption and strikethrough immunity for 8 and 10 seconds respectively on the same time scales as current.

Strikethrough resistances added to all tanks stances not just pallys. (or DX stances all together they're really rather pointless at this point in the game).

Pledge of Armorment should be changed to a raid-wide crit mit buff.

this is almost entirely comprised of over the top suggestions... And I am a raiding pali...

add a potency buff to amends... would give the scout or mage that is jacked into being in the OT or MT group a reason to want to be there as apposed to a more dps focussed group. Tada some useful utility I would even go so far as to say you could trade the transfer % for that Potency (or crit bonus would be better imo) as this has always been a bit of a peeve for the other tanks who have a bit harder time with agro as a whole. Losing 20% of that to give 20% CB or Pot to the person recieving that buff would fix this and give some extra "want" for a paladin.

The change to our reflect allowing it to be cast every two minutes is a actually a great change that will help us perform our role as a tank in raids without over powering that ability. One more way to at least lower the damage of an aoe that can one shot us would be close to on par with the other tanks. Easily done by changing Devout Sacrament or Lay on Hands to a ward that wards around 25K (increasing the recast if it is devout sacrament naturally). No we will not have stoneskins like some of the other tanks but really that is why we have heals (or life taps for the sk). We don't prevent all the damage because we can realistically help to bring the health back to full when it is lost. This is a simple change to the type of healing ability and just a trade off in the form of total healing in the case of Lay on Hands or a bit longer recast for devout sacrament.

As a paladin we have a much harder time with mem wiping mobs... Simply adding another possition to holy ground (to make it on par with the SK positionals in aoe). We would still realistically be lacking in the snap taunts area but this would just wind up being the weakest area for the paladin as we can hold normal agro better then the rest. Constant agro vs snap agro /shrug

If we want real changes to be made we need doable suggestions. I have no issues giving up some of what we do for these changes.

If all the suggestions I made actually made it into game, then yes, it would be over the top (I would be tickled pink though).  However, I attempted to get Xelgad a selection of possible changes (maybe one or two) to keep from pigeon-holing ourselves. 

Face it, the one of the biggest reasons we're here now is because they did away with Stonewill on gear.  The loss of that stat alone has really shown how weak we really are in reactive damage recovery and front end damage mitigation and I think the SF changes didn't take into account how much this stat was really holding us up.

Honestly, I think we are being disasteriously short-sighted here.  Do we need a lot of big changes?  No, but we could definitely use one or two large changes specifically in proactive damage mitigation otherwise we are going to continue to slip into the backround and continue to loose disirability.  The change to our reflect was a great step, but what about melee based attacks and snap agro for the memwipes?  Or the fact that all our protective abilities can't be cast without power?

Personally I'd say revert Holy ground back to ROK pre-nerf format, and make Stonewall 100% damage strikethrough immune for their given recast and duration and and another 5K to our ward I'd be happy as a clam.

Would I love something done with our pathetic group heal, our worthless pledge of armorment, whatever you want to call Arch heal, and group proc buff in our wis line (can't remember the name); you bet, but I can live them if we were given the changes mentioned.  I still think it's being too short-sighted and we'll be right back here next year with the next change of gear. 

We have two choices here, either push to increase our proactive damage mitigation, or push to increase our reactive healing for recovery.  Either direction is fine with me as long as it leads us to being successful in our role. 

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Old 08-18-2011, 02:55 PM   #56
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Recovery is not an issue, we have the best recovery ability in the game. I don't even know why you would mention this. Our issues lie with one shots alone. Not fixable by strikethrough immunity or a slightly larger ward amount.

We're talking 100k+ AOE hits, post wards. Stoneskin / DI is the only solution to that.

Holy ground prenerf was overpowered, to give it back would be overpowered. I don't want overpowered, I want desireable. Our class doesn't need to be overpowered, it needs to be desireable. Utility is key.

The simple fact that you think we need help with melee attacks currently is concerning enough to make me wonder why you're trying to suggest changes to a class you're having trouble with. Stonewill gear? Really? Did you ever do Wing 3? I had every piece of stonewill imagineable and I barely was able to stay afloat on XYZ. Saalax? No chance.

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Old 08-18-2011, 03:17 PM   #57
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So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?

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Old 08-18-2011, 03:31 PM   #58
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[email protected] wrote:

So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?

I disagre, if all tanks get this ability, then all tanks should get every ability.

I stated previously in this thread the reasonable amount of damage prevents crusaders should get and on what max reuse timers.  They should be able to cover more than 50% on their own, probably closer to 75% of them, and the remaining odd hit covered by the many targetable stoneskins avaiable from other classes.  If we're going to give enough of these abilities to every class, then other tanks need to get alot more stuff to.

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Old 08-18-2011, 05:25 PM   #59
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Maergoth wrote:

Recovery is not an issue, we have the best recovery ability in the game. I don't even know why you would mention this. Our issues lie with one shots alone. Not fixable by strikethrough immunity or a slightly larger ward amount.

We're talking 100k+ AOE hits, post wards. Stoneskin / DI is the only solution to that.

Holy ground prenerf was overpowered, to give it back would be overpowered. I don't want overpowered, I want desireable. Our class doesn't need to be overpowered, it needs to be desireable. Utility is key.

Bingo..... quoting just to make a point

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?

I disagre, if all tanks get this ability, then all tanks should get every ability.

I stated previously in this thread the reasonable amount of damage prevents crusaders should get and on what max reuse timers.  They should be able to cover more than 50% on their own, probably closer to 75% of them, and the remaining odd hit covered by the many targetable stoneskins avaiable from other classes.  If we're going to give enough of these abilities to every class, then other tanks need to get alot more stuff to.

Some fighters *do* have the option to block MOST of the damage THAT is the issue. when one fighter can block 80% and other block 50% and a paladin block 20% then the choice who will tank is obvious.

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Old 08-18-2011, 05:28 PM   #60
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So far, EVERY TANK BESIDES PALADINS has a Stoneskin. We're not asking for strikethrough immunity like brawlers have, we're not asking for reinforcement or bloodletter. (Even though Guardians have mini amends now and SKs have a self ward)

Wait, every other class has absorbed the things that made our class desireable? Huh. I wonder if that's a problem.

Currently yes, raid content is "Time your saves to block automatic kills". That's all it takes to handle the primary mob on every fight this expansion. Some aren't as bad as others, but that's the only time an issue arises. The incapability of a paladin in this situation is ridiculous. As stated before, other tanks can survive sets of one shots before needing help. Paladins can survive two to three. One with Reflect, one with Manawall (Assuming we even have the mana to spare). Brawlers can survive an unlimited number, monks at least.

Since practically every AOE hits for upwards of 100k frontal on difficult content, it's guaranteed to kill. Some fights have two AOEs or a death touch component. On those, we're tapped after one round.

It's important to note that because other tanks have more, they can rotate their saves.

Assuming 45 seconds between AOEs/One Shots and ~60% Reuse:

Shadowknights can Blood siphon (Ward, 1:30 recast, every other AOE), Respite (1:30 recast, 1 trigger stoneskin over 25% of max health) Reflect, (3:00 recast, every 4th AOE), Ward, Respite, manawall (2:00 Recast, every 3 AOES) , ward , respite, Reflect, ward, manawall, ward.. etc. If it's a mana intensive fight and they can't rotate manawall,  they can ALLOW DI TRIGGERS TO DROP because they have like 3 triggers. This isn't including priest saves or DI's, myth click or makeshift saves like furor to build up wards).

Paladins looks more like this: Manawall, Reflect, Stonewall + Demonstration of Faith, (Divine Favor), Manawall, Divine Favor.. Then we start yelling in vent for DIs from priests, whether stonewall comes back or not because we can't risk dying using a wimpy last resort combo.

*NOTE* Stonewall is a 1m reuse, only blocks melee for ward purposes, not reliable but better to try while Divine Favor is still up.

Any questions?

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