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Old 10-29-2015, 02:17 AM   #31
Meirril

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I think a more basic question needs to be addressed: Do new mechanics take precedence over established mechanics?
According to Caith's itemization thread MC is suppose to out perform low end heroic. With it stated out as it is now the base line MC is below HC. That means between experimentation, refining and infusion you can increase it from being the worst stats in itemization to something fairly high.

That is obviously too much of a range. Some of the stat boosting needs to go.

Adding 10% to the base stats, and then another 10% to 5 stats (or diminishing returns for higher stats) is what we've been able to do for quite a while now. That is the established effects of refining and experimentation. Refining is accused of being too big of a boost.

But wouldn't it be an equal solution to remove the ToT expansion's new mechanic from crafted gear? Actually wouldn't the MC gear look much better if all the improvement that infusion was suppose to introduce was instead part of the base line equipment?

It isn't like players would put a lot of effort into infusing crafted gear anyways. For most players MC is something they will consider using for a brief amount of time while they seriously look at how to acquire better gear. They aren't looking to invest a ton of effort into upgrading crafted equipment. Everything they have experienced in EQ2 tells them that they can do better, and the infusion mechanic tells them they need to invest heavily in the gear the are going to use. So why would they waste time and plat on something they plan on replacing? Top end heroics and raid drops are going to have plat spent on them. Not crafted or quest drops. Adv solo gear would have some people maxing it out, but those are people that won't do anything other than solo content.

Anyways I'm pointing the finger of blame at infusion. I'd like to see established mechanics continued with refining giving a full 10%. If we had to loose either refining or experimentation I'd rather see experimentation removed. The increased rare consumption for refining helps to keep the market healthy. Experimentation is a risky gamble that most crafters won't do ahead of time because customers could want a different set of stats improved. Refining is something easily brokered because there is no variance.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:05 AM   #32
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We understand the question. the point we're trying to get is that if it's not viable BEFORE you experiment/refine it, then your question is moot, because no one is going to want it in the first place. if the final result is say, T2 legendary, but the original item is worse then T1 legendary since you want it refined to get it to a little over T1, and hen experimenting gets it to T2, then I would forgo refining (put it at the refined level to start) then just allow experimenting. however if the basic version is T1 legend, and then there's a small jump past on refining, and then another jump past on experimenting, then I would still want both in there.

becuase if someone looks at the gear, and says 'this is worse then stuff I can get from a 30 minute zone run, vs several hours of harvesting the 5 rares' then no one is even going to bother, no matter how good it might get fully 'upgraded' if the basic product is unappealing, no one is going to care what bells and whistles you can add on it. they've already left the store.
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:18 PM   #33
Kickya

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whats the point ?

Lower stats so you can refine and gain the points back LOL
why not just have higher stats and kick refining to the curb?

All this does is prolong the duration required to get something back that was taken away.

plus refining only adds 5% now and the items crafted cant be reforged so were all going to use a few bits of mastercrafted for a few weeks then were all going to want to upgrade with heroic drops and regain the ability to reforge.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:34 AM   #34
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Itemize based on the base item, it takes what 5 refined rares for the new gear like AoM stuff, the only time i had any reason to refine is to get the best weapons/shield for my main toons, the only reason after that is when there's so much rares floating around that the gain/loss rate of refining is lessened.

refining only adds 5% now and it takes 5 rares to make MC gear, balance by the base item but curb back the number of rares required for MC gear or create two types of MC gear unrefinable (2 rares) and refinable (5 rares), people that min-max will take the refined gear while the rest of us will take unrefined gear a good portion of the time. then balance on unrefined.

balancing around the maximum punishes those that don't min-max and makes their gameplay more tedious.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:13 AM   #35
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I'd prefer refining remain instead of using the new infusions, because reality is, nobody will spend plat infusing gear to get stats back that are removed with refining.

I'm kinda tired of the idea that mc gear is lower end garbage. I can get 4 full sets of adv solo gear before i have enough rares to make i set of mc gear.

I knew as soon as I saw the infusion demo that mc gear was going to be junk compared to gear that can be reforged. There was a time that MC gear was as good as heroic gear (not adv solo) without having to jump through hoops like refining, experimenting and now infusions... and after all those hoops I bet it still falls under heroic gear.

If MC gear is now supposed to fall between adv solo and heroic it should only take ONE rare per item. Otherwise, nobody but pure soloers will even give it a look.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:30 AM   #36
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I just wanted to point out that master crafted gear can be reforged this expansion. I don't know if that will apply to previous expansion's master crafted stuff, but this stuff can be reforged. Assuming you have the AoD feature pack, or paid for the individual option. I know they said pre-ordering gives you access to all previous content, but in the past they have always excluded AoD features from that. I don't know if it's different now that it's not owned by Sony.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:35 AM   #37
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Because it's marked legendary as well, yup.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:43 AM   #38
Meirril

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I've been against this idea for a while. Refining and Experimentation were suppose to be neat things that made crafting more desirable. But the truth of the matter is itemization works backwards and we get weaker MC because of these prestige abilities.

So yes, discount refining for ToT and for that matter please remove the ability to experiment on anything. Crafting is better off without them. If we could get a few more points in exchange, crafting is better off without infusing as well. As heartbreaking of a conclusion as it is, we're better off making the simplest item possible because everything else robs points from MC.
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Old 11-02-2015, 06:56 AM   #39
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This, unfortunately, seems to be true. Frown
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:13 AM   #40
Alexic

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Yes very very true. If when I make a mastercrafted item it turns out lower stats than a handcrafted item it appears most players would not consider it Mastercrafted. To use an oldie but goodie... Fuzzie Wuzzy was a bear But Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair so Fuzzy Wuzzy wasnt really Fuzzy was he? jus sayin..... Smile
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:28 PM   #41
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Given this, I'd say pitch Refining.

When I looked at the itemization in AoM, it quickly became obvious that MC/refined/experimented belt, cloak, and weapons was the only way to fly until I got later into Heroics.
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:32 PM   #42
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The design mistake is making the stats lower in the first place to compensate for refining, the penalty of mastercrafted gear not being reforgeable is plenty to offset the difference. I still don't believe the idea that equipment that is both refined and experimented properly should need to be worse than heroic gear. Limiting mastercrafted blue stats to things like reuse, recovery, and max health, where excess isn't desirable, allows you to balance regardless, since those stats still aren't improved by refining, and excess from too many pieces means that you're better off once you do get heroic gear that can be reforged. In this way, mastercrafted gear is still a useful stepping stone, not the end of the game, but not less valuable for the time and effort the gatherers and crafters put into making it, so they can actually sell some of it.
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:56 PM   #43
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If they start putting a bunch of recovery speed on MC gear, I'll never use it.. MOST USELESS STAT EVER if you ever have any lag Tongue
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:14 PM   #44
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On the other hand, if refining is tossed out, what happens to the AA tree - yet another useless skill like swimming?

Before beta I was on the fence about this, but after seeing how the (now 5%) refining and infusions work there, I would prefer to go back to the last tier 10%. Just for grins I maxed out one character with infusions - and used up hundreds of the epic ones. Those are presumably raid-only drops, so it will be literally impossible for the average person to get any really significant gear boost just from infusions alone. The low level infusions - which only have a 20% chance to do anything - are fairly common in solo instances, but you would probably need over 2,000 of them to get an overall 5% boost in one stat across all gear - and then if you replace the gear, you have lost that.
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:23 PM   #45
Feldon

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If the ceiling on MC stats is going to stay the same, but require Refining to get where we used to get, then why have it except as a super obvious hamster wheel?
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:24 PM   #46
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You did not mention the fact that EACH piece of gear takes (usually) 5 rares (a few are more), and if refined approximately double that. So for a full upgrade of all gear to refined would take a substantial number of rares - roughly 200 - somewhat difficult, but doable. But for many people to get any substantial number of infusions it is a whole different story. It will require running 4-5 solo instances just to get one 100% upgrade of perhaps 3 crit bonus. And the solo zones in ToT are not something you run as a daily routine like you did the AoM ones.
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:44 PM   #47
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Just to get what used to be known as "Mastercrafted".
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:44 PM   #48
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I'd rather have useless AA then have mastercrafted 'designed' with the expectation that it will ALWAYS be refined AND 5 times experimented, because the MC gear ends up being effectively useless if you don't do both. And I know that most people do NOT visionary all, or even most, of their gear and with the 5+ rares per item, 'requiring' it to be refined to be useful is, as you mentioned, doubling the rares required.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:28 PM   #49
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I don't mind refining and experimenting existing in theory,

But:

There is simply not enough room in the itemization for what is essentially three tiers (normal, refined and refined + experimented) of mastercrafted gear.

So I'd be happy to see refining removed (can always bring it back when someone gets around to fixing itemization from top to bottom).
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:40 PM   #50
Feldon

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Can we please get "Likes" turned on for this forum?
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:00 PM   #51
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Amen, brother Feldon.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:25 AM   #52
CoLD MeTaL

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And I would say, that I find it very irritating that the team does this.

This is adding steps, just to add steps. I assume to pull more resources out of the game.

I don't see why you would want to arbitrarily make things longer just because at this age of the game. (To me, this is like them knocking out the bridge between my house and work. Nothing really changes, but my commute is now longer than it used to be and I just lose. I do find this interesting since it confirms what we've known goes on, but no one would admit.)

For me, I want mastercrafted to be on par with what it used to be and the 'extra' steps actually have a chance to have it make the items very worthwhile.

So in answer to Domino, I would find her suggestion much more preferable, to make masterdrafted not use refined product.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:56 AM   #53
Arieva

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Ditch refining, The mastercrafted should be full stat without it. Thanks
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:47 PM   #54
Alexic

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Highly agreed. maybe then all the work that people put into tradeskilling/harvesting would be viewed as relevant to the game .... which at this point IT ISN'T jus sayin..... unless of course you are a house decorator... but have yet to see a quest that deals with obtaining anything as a reward for DECORATING a house. The name of the game is Everquest 2 Right?
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:17 PM   #55
Xerikton

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keep both as is. let the players decided which one they want to use.

as the system is now I can't see refined gear being made much but rather regular experimented ones instead.

besides with the server merges getting group content is easier. this new mc gear isn't as good by comparison to aom mc to group. perhaps that is by intent.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:34 PM   #56
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Having base MC be WORSE then handcrafted is broken. If the only way to get 'regular' MC better then HC is to ditch refining, then refining should be ditched. An item that takes 5+ rares should never be WORSE then it's handcrafted counterpart that takes none.
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Old 11-07-2015, 12:28 AM   #57
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Thanks for all the discussion. There are definitely arguments on both sides, and we're not seeing one clear overwhelming consensus, so we have decided to keep refining for now. Caith has done some rebalancing of the crafted equipment stats also.
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Old 11-07-2015, 01:15 AM   #58
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More on this. Armor crafted with rares should absolutely be better than handcrafted now. There may be an outlying stat here and there that does not follow rule, but those should be considered a bug and reported.
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Old 11-07-2015, 01:28 AM   #59
Sigrdrifa

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Thanks to both of you devs. At this point, few tradeskillers expect to "make a living" in-game via crafting alone, but there should be some point in being able to craft stuff... it should be good enough that people will want it as starter gear for a tier, at least.
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Old 11-07-2015, 04:49 AM   #60
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Thank you Caith and Domino. It has gone on and on with this thread that made many think the time spent on making MC gear would be irrelevant as the harvesting does take a major part of this process. Looking forward to seeing updated MC stats.
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