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Old 01-16-2011, 06:28 PM   #1
Onorem

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Can we please have some faction where evil is evil? I feel bad for people that want to be 'good' in Kunzar and other areas occasionally when they have to play faction games for cash. I feel bad for people that want to be 'evil' everywhere. It's stupid.
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:29 PM   #2
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Caertaxian Legion in The Hole. You kill and rob from the other factions all for the sake of Caertax. The starting quest NPC even says that him and the other Roekilliks don't like doing good. Good is a bad thing, even if you're just saying the word in context of praising someone else for completing a task. They don't want you doing good. They want evil.

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Old 01-16-2011, 08:37 PM   #3
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Cusashorn wrote:

Caertaxian Legion in The Hole. You kill and rob from the other factions all for the sake of Caertax. The starting quest NPC even says that him and the other Roekilliks don't like doing good. Good is a bad thing, even if you're just saying the word in context of praising someone else for completing a task. They don't want you doing good. They want evil.

Thanks...I might have to check that out a bit. I didn't spend much time in the hole outside a couple levels of grinding on my first couple 90s. I've got some evil coming up that might take advantage of the faction.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:52 PM   #4
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There needs to be more evil pathed quests out there. An example on how they could do this is like in the Tombs of Night. Basically a quest a group can do together, even if different faction, but not have to go out of the way.

Anything Solo could be fixed this way. Take the Grottos for example. Why would my Dark Elf Shadowknight care to cleanse a pool of Dryads? Perhaps allow us to corrupt them instead.

Some of my favorite questlines were the diety ones since you actually got to play your alignment. Lets get away from the Planes of Power thing where everyone wants to unit together to stop Norrath's destruction. The Hole Questlines are a poor example. A High Elf Paladin of Tunare can do those quests too without having any reprecussions, faction isn't an issue due to the disguises.

Something to think about if they do decide to do that 'reboot' of Norrath they were speaking about a month or so ago.

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Old 01-16-2011, 10:11 PM   #5
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Of course, in the end it's just another faction that doesn't lead you anywhere important. You call the NPC's out on the deeds they're making you do, and swear to get back at them.

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Old 01-17-2011, 12:07 AM   #6
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You'll be hard pressed to see any posts from me complaining about this game, but I gotta' agree with the OP here. My first evil toon was born in Freeport and grew up in the commonlands. He was a dark elf shadowknight that embraced the dark arts and all the evil that came with it.

By the time he was level 20, he had helped several cooks find ingredients for food so they could feed others, fought off an orc invasion, helped several people find lost relatives, helped a ghost finally find peace, and even convinced two warring villages that they should accept each other for the sake of their children, who were in love.

At level 20, I realized he had betrayed everything he ever believed in a hundred times over, so I just betrayed to a Paladin. SMILEY

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Old 01-17-2011, 04:08 AM   #7
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scruffylookin wrote:

You'll be hard pressed to see any posts from me complaining about this game, but I gotta' agree with the OP here. My first evil toon was born in Freeport and grew up in the commonlands. He was a dark elf shadowknight that embraced the dark arts and all the evil that came with it.

By the time he was level 20, he had helped several cooks find ingredients for food so they could feed others, fought off an orc invasion, helped several people find lost relatives, helped a ghost finally find peace, and even convinced two warring villages that they should accept each other for the sake of their children, who were in love.

At level 20, I realized he had betrayed everything he ever believed in a hundred times over, so I just betrayed to a Paladin.

hehe LOL. Yeah it's hard times for the evil do-ers in this game so much people that need to be "helped. SMILEY

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Old 01-17-2011, 04:32 AM   #8
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scruffylookin wrote:

You'll be hard pressed to see any posts from me complaining about this game, but I gotta' agree with the OP here. My first evil toon was born in Freeport and grew up in the commonlands. He was a dark elf shadowknight that embraced the dark arts and all the evil that came with it.

By the time he was level 20, he had helped several cooks find ingredients for food so they could feed others, fought off an orc invasion, helped several people find lost relatives, helped a ghost finally find peace, and even convinced two warring villages that they should accept each other for the sake of their children, who were in love.

At level 20, I realized he had betrayed everything he ever believed in a hundred times over, so I just betrayed to a Paladin.

You should think it over   Noone in game is the ultimate destructive egoist. At the end of the day everyone cares for the *good* of his city/faction. A SK is still a knight, he just uses dark arts to reach his goals. It is not his goal to destroy any living being in commonlands, his goal is to be a knight of DeLere or, in Neriak, a knight of the Queen. If there is a problem the rulers send a knight to solve it. No matter if Qeynos, Neriak, Freeport or one of the neutral cities. A defiler for example uses dark arts, but to heal others.

What you wanted to play would be to beat DeLere or one of the Queens or Majong or whom ever, and become ruler yourself. Interessting idea, but there was never support of such game mechanics. Such, for example, exists in ATITD on an economic/political level. But once someone has overthrown the Pharao, the game is over and a server reset happens

Until then we are all bound to our cities, factions and deities quest-wise

Edit: I could say the same about the good aligned. I cant tell you how many evil things i have done the last 6 years. Either i had to delete the quest or do evil. SMILEY In terms of immersion/RP i can only be ashamed.

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Old 01-17-2011, 08:49 AM   #9
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scruffylookin wrote:

You'll be hard pressed to see any posts from me complaining about this game, but I gotta' agree with the OP here. My first evil toon was born in Freeport and grew up in the commonlands. He was a dark elf shadowknight that embraced the dark arts and all the evil that came with it.

By the time he was level 20, he had helped several cooks find ingredients for food so they could feed others, fought off an orc invasion, helped several people find lost relatives, helped a ghost finally find peace, and even convinced two warring villages that they should accept each other for the sake of their children, who were in love.

At level 20, I realized he had betrayed everything he ever believed in a hundred times over, so I just betrayed to a Paladin.

I see this as a problem.

In Everquest 1 we did not even have factions (sans PVP) that were based on alignment. But you sure as heck did play your alignment. Neriak, Oggok, Grobb, and some parts of Freeport had you do all sorts of heinous stuff. Not too mention you could just massacre places such as Highpass, Jagged Pine, and even Plane of Growth. In Velious you could even ally with the Giants and kill the Coldain!

They need to bring these mechanics back.

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Old 01-17-2011, 03:10 PM   #10
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Eugam wrote:

scruffylookin wrote:

You'll be hard pressed to see any posts from me complaining about this game, but I gotta' agree with the OP here. My first evil toon was born in Freeport and grew up in the commonlands. He was a dark elf shadowknight that embraced the dark arts and all the evil that came with it.

By the time he was level 20, he had helped several cooks find ingredients for food so they could feed others, fought off an orc invasion, helped several people find lost relatives, helped a ghost finally find peace, and even convinced two warring villages that they should accept each other for the sake of their children, who were in love.

At level 20, I realized he had betrayed everything he ever believed in a hundred times over, so I just betrayed to a Paladin.

You should think it over   Noone in game is the ultimate destructive egoist. At the end of the day everyone cares for the *good* of his city/faction. A SK is still a knight, he just uses dark arts to reach his goals. It is not his goal to destroy any living being in commonlands, his goal is to be a knight of DeLere or, in Neriak, a knight of the Queen. If there is a problem the rulers send a knight to solve it. No matter if Qeynos, Neriak, Freeport or one of the neutral cities. A defiler for example uses dark arts, but to heal others.

What you wanted to play would be to beat DeLere or one of the Queens or Majong or whom ever, and become ruler yourself. Interessting idea, but there was never support of such game mechanics. Such, for example, exists in ATITD on an economic/political level. But once someone has overthrown the Pharao, the game is over and a server reset happens

Until then we are all bound to our cities, factions and deities quest-wise

Edit: I could say the same about the good aligned. I cant tell you how many evil things i have done the last 6 years. Either i had to delete the quest or do evil. In terms of immersion/RP i can only be ashamed.

Many years ago I betrayed my ratonga druid (had to betray before level 20) The last thing I had to do to get out of Freeport was kill Lucan D'lere of course being like level 10or around there that was impossible and I was killed and then I had to run through Nektolous at level 15 or something.  Afterwards I was then told to prove myself good by killing several gnolls becuase trying to murder someone was evil. I hated it then but after betraying my shadowknight to a paladin more recently (She was always different growing up, the white sheep in her family her black sheep) the line seemed meh.

If you want evil or unnatural (my fury is nuetral but hates anything she feels is unnatural ie necromancy) run the sf timeline.  My fury wanted/wants to burn Paineel for forcing her to the most unnatural thing.

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Old 01-17-2011, 03:58 PM   #11
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Eugam wrote:

Edit: I could say the same about the good aligned. I cant tell you how many evil things i have done the last 6 years. Either i had to delete the quest or do evil. In terms of immersion/RP i can only be ashamed.

On your edit. This I agree..... I nearly told myself F the charm questline to save Lucan. I wanted him dead. Every time in EQ1 that I was in FP on my paladin I made sure I killed Lucan. I despise him with a passion and it sickened me to help free him. It really was a delema for me. Get this better charm and suck it up and accept it is just a game and w/e. OR go full on with my RP feelings and not help Lucan. I don't care if it threw FP into chaos. The queen then should have wrestled power back durring that chaos with the help of the fae from kelethin and turn that city back into a good city where the priests of Marr could once more govern over it. DOWN WITH LUCAN...... grrrr...... and he once had the soulfire too.... after i spent so much time KEEPING it from him in EQ1...... grrrr.....

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Old 01-17-2011, 05:16 PM   #12
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I don't know, it seems like every major story arc we've helped somebody bad further their diabolical goals...

We helped Nagafen kill a prismatic dragon just because he didn't like that it wasn't his.  We helped uncover major artifacts lost in Kunark, originally to be handed over to the void men about to invade, instead given to the slightly more benign Mayong Mistmoore.  We gained reputation with a mysterious cult worshipping a fallen goddess, who created all undeath in Norrath.  So evil that she was banished.  And just to take things to the next logical step, we decided to bring her back a few years later.  We spent a ton of effort tracking down the Qeynos Claymore and the Soulfire, the two most powerful swords on Norrath, just in time for them to be stolen by the attacking void armies to be used again by Roehn Theer (the most powerful being we've encountered so far).  And of course, we couldn't just stop there, we had to go out and research a way to drain the powerful essence of weapons, which allowed another incredibly powerful being to steal the life of those two swords once we decided to kill Roehn Theer.

So basically everything we've done thus far in the life of the game has been to further the diabolical plot of some evil person/being/group, whether intentional or not.

Not to mention we've had a heck of a lot of collateral damage in the process.  Kill first, ask questions later.

On a different note, I thought the Greenmist heritage quest timeline was a really fun "evil" series of quests.  The last step of the quest you basically ambush part of Freeport... blow stuff up, kill guards.  It's fun. http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Name_of_Fear

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Old 01-17-2011, 05:27 PM   #13
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We may have helped some bad people, but we did it to be good

Mah characters are still low level but ah can't recall many quests that actually had them do real evil, the closest offhand would have to be the Frog unlock quest (where you hunt down and kill a couple frogs) but even that turns out good in the end (you get welcomed with open flippers by the frog village and then do quests to help them)

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Old 01-17-2011, 05:41 PM   #14
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actually with the Lucan timeline I was willing to bring lucan back as a paladin because the Queen is right. it's the lesser of two evils. if you tried to dominate freeport, they unite..you'd literally have to conquer it. and put enough military force to do exactly what lucan does to it now. just using templars and paladins of marr rather then inny and lucanic knights...I was working it hoping that bringing lucan back ragged and beaten up woudl inspire rebellion...you know in the 'he's not as all powerful as he claims' manner.

but it is hard to play an alignment extreme in norrath..like lawful good or lawful evil. too many 'kill hundreds of these' quests to be good..and too many 'help me rescue my kitty!' type quests to be evil.

it's the same in kunark. how many good guys do you know that wouldn't have smashed Rile's phylactery not 2 seconds after they got thier hands on it? how many evils would have used it to dominate rile and use him as thier personal bodyguard/assassin?

though as far as deities...I still say Rallos is neutral. to use historic examples..while yes, Hitler was evil in his use of war to cause the holocaust/spreading of the third reich....I wouldn't call Alexander the Great evil. he conquered pretty much all the known world..but used the conquests to spread knowledge, trade, ideas..he did good things to the world through his conquests.

actually...bringing Anashti back was more of an accident. we intended to destroy her in the Void..unfortunately doing so set her free as a side effect. we never went there looking to get her out. and we didn't help Naggy destroy a prismatic dragon. we helped him kill Darathar. who held the leash to the drakota..and later the Cult of the Awakened. the prismatic egg was collateral damage...he wasn't happy, but he was more of a 'if I can't have no one can' mentality about it.

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Old 01-17-2011, 06:18 PM   #15
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[email protected] wrote:

it's the same in kunark. how many good guys do you know that wouldn't have smashed Rile's phylactery not 2 seconds after they got thier hands on it? how many evils would have used it to dominate rile and use him as thier personal bodyguard/assassin?

bit off topic but shame they never continued this questline, am still holding onto the phylactery as instructed by the end of the last quest it gave.

and i agree on the topic as well. not enogh branching story, althogh that can get rather complex. biggest issue is how few dragons we can help rather then kill unlike EQ1. DoF comes to mind, we had no choice but to track down the two dragons for the Dijin master if we wanted to progress.

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Old 01-17-2011, 06:37 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

actually...bringing Anashti back was more of an accident. we intended to destroy her in the Void..unfortunately doing so set her free as a side effect. we never went there looking to get her out. and we didn't help Naggy destroy a prismatic dragon. we helped him kill Darathar. who held the leash to the drakota..and later the Cult of the Awakened. the prismatic egg was collateral damage...he wasn't happy, but he was more of a 'if I can't have no one can' mentality about it.

Nagafen still used us though, and we realized that. He wanted the egg back if possible, but didn't care if it was destroyed because he's got plenty more where that came from. Even though dragons aren't allowed to harm other dragons, Nagafen is exempt because he's already been exiled for breaking other Draconian laws. He just didn't want to get his hands dirty.

Ultimately, everyone, good or evil, ends up being the pawn of something greater that threatens their own survival. Doesn't matter if you're black or white. In the end everything is grey.

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Old 01-17-2011, 08:20 PM   #17
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The problem with playing evil is that only insane sociopaths actually consider themselves evil. The people we consider evil in history generally thought they were doing something good, or at least that their efforts were justified by their end goals. Hitler didn't think he was evil, he was just insane and actually thought that Jewish people were out to control the world economy and that the best way to empower Germany was through mass ethnic cleansing. He didn't commit atrocities in order to spread evil, he did so to advance his own goals.

When it comes down to it, an evil character is usually one who exhibits socially-unacceptable traits such as extreme selfishness and lack of moral compunctions. An evil character shouldn't mind saving a kitten from a tree as long as they get a reward for it. The difference is that if somebody offered them more money to stick the kitten's head on a pike at the base of the tree, they'd happily betray their original employer and do so. An evil character is one who is willing to commit evil acts as well as good acts. After all, if given the choice, any person would prefer that others treat them with respect and kindness, evil characters just don't have any desire to reciprocate.

Therefore, an evil character is actually the easiest type to write quests for, because they can be motivated by reward alone. They'll do anything as long as they get paid; be the quest to slay an marauding dragon or to unite the orphan unicorn with his loving family. It's good-aligned characters that are limited. Good characters have to consider the ethical ramifications of their acts, and weigh the value of the reward against the consequences to their society. Good characters have lines that they simply cannot cross, whereas evil characters are happy to dance around those lines whenever it suits them.

In other words, I applaud the devs for writing quests that aren't simply "burn down that orphanage just because it's there!" and other nonsensical tasks that would not benefit the evil character in any tangible way. The setting of EQ2 does not include black-clad, mustache-twirling super-villains, but rather being with their own goals and moral outlooks. If you want to play a genocidal madman, I suggest City of Villains.

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Old 01-17-2011, 11:50 PM   #18
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They have deviated very much from the true "Good and Evil" factions in this game.  There's still a few decent quest lines that have you do "evil" things, but even those are more humorous then evil. Heck, I remember even seeing some noob posting on the forum here complaining that one of the Freeport guards used to kill him when he left his GH to talk with the BG quest givers.  Sheesh!

Another thing that has always bothered me was how all the Guide events on the servers are good aligned.  I have absolutely no desire to go and sit and listen to a Guide tell ma a story so I can get cookies or pie.  I don't want to find your lost pigs, or help you fight off angry orcs. 

I want to be with the orcs as we raze your village to ground! 

What ever happened to the cool GM events like back in EQ where they would fill Nek Forest up with bad azz monsters that killed everyone until some guild or guilds joined together to raid the GM's dead.  They did this in Vanguard as well.

Then again, people who like cookies and pie and house items buy more things with SC , I presume. SMILEY

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Old 01-24-2011, 02:25 PM   #19
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Not sure why it popped into my head just now, but I did just think of a quest that gives you an option like I want to see more of. Kill kittens or hide them in a bag? It's up to you how to complete the quest. Your assassinate critically hits a kitten....best combat log ever.
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Old 01-25-2011, 01:09 AM   #20
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Bertoxxulous deity questline is one you simply have to do at least once.

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Old 01-25-2011, 05:51 AM   #21
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

The problem with playing evil is that only insane sociopaths actually consider themselves evil. The people we consider evil in history generally thought they were doing something good, or at least that their efforts were justified by their end goals. Hitler didn't think he was evil, he was just insane and actually thought that Jewish people were out to control the world economy and that the best way to empower Germany was through mass ethnic cleansing. He didn't commit atrocities in order to spread evil, he did so to advance his own goals.

When it comes down to it, an evil character is usually one who exhibits socially-unacceptable traits such as extreme selfishness and lack of moral compunctions. An evil character shouldn't mind saving a kitten from a tree as long as they get a reward for it. The difference is that if somebody offered them more money to stick the kitten's head on a pike at the base of the tree, they'd happily betray their original employer and do so. An evil character is one who is willing to commit evil acts as well as good acts. After all, if given the choice, any person would prefer that others treat them with respect and kindness, evil characters just don't have any desire to reciprocate.

Therefore, an evil character is actually the easiest type to write quests for, because they can be motivated by reward alone. They'll do anything as long as they get paid; be the quest to slay an marauding dragon or to unite the orphan unicorn with his loving family. It's good-aligned characters that are limited. Good characters have to consider the ethical ramifications of their acts, and weigh the value of the reward against the consequences to their society. Good characters have lines that they simply cannot cross, whereas evil characters are happy to dance around those lines whenever it suits them.

In other words, I applaud the devs for writing quests that aren't simply "burn down that orphanage just because it's there!" and other nonsensical tasks that would not benefit the evil character in any tangible way. The setting of EQ2 does not include black-clad, mustache-twirling super-villains, but rather being with their own goals and moral outlooks. If you want to play a genocidal madman, I suggest City of Villains.

Great post, but most of the content in CoV has you doing just as much good (more actually) than you do here.  So far, DCUO does a decent job at evil characters, especially the Lex storyline.

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Old 01-25-2011, 05:19 PM   #22
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Real RP and immersion were gone a looong time ago. Barely any class specific quests or armor, tethers on mobs, insta travel everywhere, easy mode for everything, golden path.. game has turned into a glorified side scroller.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:42 PM   #23
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The old betrayal to Freeport had some decision points that weren't kindly, but since then, even kicking a cat in DoF to get a crocodile's attention was deemed too heinous to remain in game.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:12 PM   #24
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The current dev team thinks "big evil" has been missing/on hiatus for far too long also.

After Velious, we'll start on the return of Big Evil. It's in the works.

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Old 01-27-2011, 12:12 AM   #25
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Util then, go do the beginner crafting quests in New Halas. Evils sabotage everything and goods clean up the mess SMILEY

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Old 01-28-2011, 08:21 PM   #26
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I've always viewed it as opposing factions, Qeynos and Freeport, more than a clean cut Good vs. Evil.

I'll still agree though. More sabotage! More evil! SMILEY

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