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Old 08-08-2007, 05:09 AM   #31
Vatec

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Rahatmattata wrote:
Vatec wrote:
Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

Grouping should be mandatory in a MMO. Guess you guys are lucky I didn't design any MMOs =P

-snip=

Why?  I fail to see how 2000 groups of six is any better than 6000 soloers, 3000 duos, and  1000 full groups.  On the other hand, it's quite clear that the second picture is better for SOE, since it results in more paying customers....
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:47 AM   #32
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When there was group content out in out side zones not to many people went and did it. Most people when they form a group head to an instance or a dungeon they don't head out side. So one of there plans is to make the majoirty of out side zones soloable because of that.
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:49 AM   #33
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1 - You believe that simplifying is for "casual" players? Casuals would go the other way... not EQ2. SOE turns off dedicated hardcore players while failing to attract "casuals". (They did this for farmers and harvesters bot groups, haha, I guessed it)

2 - Why on Norrath they nerfed Crypt of Betrayal then? It escapes me completely.

3 - What? To allow players to see more content? Okay, I want to see more of Emerald Halls, nerf it so I can at least invis through it. I paid my money for expansion, I have the right to digest this zone, give it to me. I have no time to seek another 23 of 70s players to join...

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Old 08-08-2007, 07:08 AM   #34
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Ogrebear wrote:
When there was group content out in out side zones not to many people went and did it. Most people when they form a group head to an instance or a dungeon they don't head out side. So one of there plans is to make the majoirty of out side zones soloable because of that.

This big grouping in overland zones arguement that you people are making has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP was talking about.  The point he is trying to make is that on a level 16 toon in Antonica you used to have the option of running up to that group of level 14 heroics gnolls and giving it a shot.  No quest, No reason really except to test the limits of your character and your skill.( and then trying it again at 17 and 18 in my case hehe)

The point is having the option, you could avoid the heroics easily if you paid attention.  Addmittedly I did not always pay attention either and I died a few times, but that is how we all learn what we can do and learn to pay attention.

Oh and ogre i only quoted your post because you were the last one that talked about grouping.

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Old 08-08-2007, 09:39 AM   #35
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When they changed Nek from being just owl bears and dragoons to the great solo zone it was pre37 I happily quested there with all of my alts as it was my favourite zone 20-30. I had no problem levelling up to my teens/twenties so that I could comfortably get by in there, CL was a stop gap to me, I went in FG and WC a few times just to get exploration XP and grind mobs.

Even though I didnt quest much in CL (apart from being a glutton for punishment and insisting on doing ROTL for everytoon - pre nerf nerf) the zone was fine how it was, if you wanted to try the ^^^ spiders go for it, if you were a wide boy and fancied the mere guardians then be my guest - fool! SMILEY The heroics let newbies or players trying a new class know their toons limits early on without having to be experimenting in a group where it could result in a wipe!

After CL got its treatment it was only a matter of time before Ant got it, but to nerf Nek further is terrible, that zone was fine as it was. If Neks getting it then Steps is soon to follow, be ready to be able to solo BT people... SMILEY

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Old 08-08-2007, 03:09 PM   #36
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[email protected] wrote:

After CL got its treatment it was only a matter of time before Ant got it, but to nerf Nek further is terrible, that zone was fine as it was. If Neks getting it then Steps is soon to follow, be ready to be able to solo BT people... SMILEY

They'll probably change it so he becomes a proximity spawn too SMILEY
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:03 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

2 - Why on Norrath they nerfed Crypt of Betrayal then? It escapes me completely.

 I would guess because a lot of the armor quest series takes place there, and since no one goes there anymore except for that, it became difficult to find groups to take on the heroics required...they also nerfed the Freeport sewers in this way.

3 - What? To allow players to see more content? Okay, I want to see more of Emerald Halls, nerf it so I can at least invis through it. I paid my money for expansion, I have the right to digest this zone, give it to me. I have no time to seek another 23 of 70s players to join...

 If you can't understand why they would change the lowbie zones and not the high level ones (where there is much more player activity these days) then there is no point in explaining it to you.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:05 PM   #38
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mdell wrote:
Ogrebear wrote:
When there was group content out in out side zones not to many people went and did it. Most people when they form a group head to an instance or a dungeon they don't head out side. So one of there plans is to make the majoirty of out side zones soloable because of that.

This big grouping in overland zones arguement that you people are making has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP was talking about.  The point he is trying to make is that on a level 16 toon in Antonica you used to have the option of running up to that group of level 14 heroics gnolls and giving it a shot.  No quest, No reason really except to test the limits of your character and your skill.( and then trying it again at 17 and 18 in my case hehe)

The point is having the option, you could avoid the heroics easily if you paid attention.  Addmittedly I did not always pay attention either and I died a few times, but that is how we all learn what we can do and learn to pay attention.

Oh and ogre i only quoted your post because you were the last one that talked about grouping.

So, zone design should remain outdated and under-used so some people, such as the OP, can occasionally pump up their [Removed for Content] by taking on heroics 8 levels lower?
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:09 AM   #39
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I just finished running a character through antonica and commonlands post GU37, and Im not happy with the changes at all. These zones have become a trivial bore fest, with virtually zero challenge. Not only that, but the thinning of mobs of various types has made some quests even harder or more tedious to complete, due to the lack of a particular mob needed to complete certain quests....which means having to camp for mob respawns, or search high and low for the one or two spawns needed. Timberclaw gnolls, young brown bears, and dervish heritics come to mind.

Its all about OPTIONS, and the way these zones are designed now, players that want an outdoor challenge, simply dont have the option to get it. If you are going to nerf the zones so heavily, please place some roaming triple up heroic named in the zones (perferrably 5-6 levels above the zone limit) to add at least some sense of challenge and danger. Dont make them quest mobs, so that those who want their carebear safety can easily avoid them. But give us something to make the zones interesting. As it is right now, these lowbie zones are like kiddie Disney Parks. If this tendency continues into higher zones, Im gonna look elsewhere.

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Old 08-09-2007, 04:17 AM   #40
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I laugh at all the people that want everything "Group Only, Solo'ers Go to He!!" mentality.  That's nice.  Guess if you were the designers you'd have this environment:  50,000 active players and 300,000 inactive, never coming back, this game is too hard, players.  Way to keep your playerbase support folks!

Oh wait.  That's what SoE *is* doing:  Creating an environment in which people would want to come back, at all level ranges....just not yours.  Let's face it folks:  Unless a game has a **HEALTHY** lower level playerbase, having GROUP ONLY content isn't going to make those that *are* lower levels happy as they'ld constantly be faced with "Group Only" mobs, get frustrated and quit the game.  And then you'd have...well....no one....playing the lower levels.

But that's just what you wanted right?  A "Challenge" at lower levels.

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Old 08-09-2007, 02:41 PM   #41
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namah wrote:

I just finished running a character through antonica and commonlands post GU37, and Im not happy with the changes at all. These zones have become a trivial bore fest, with virtually zero challenge. Not only that, but the thinning of mobs of various types has made some quests even harder or more tedious to complete, due to the lack of a particular mob needed to complete certain quests....which means having to camp for mob respawns, or search high and low for the one or two spawns needed. Timberclaw gnolls, young brown bears, and dervish heritics come to mind.

I'm assuming you are a veteran player, so the zones are already familiar to you. Imagine being new to the game, not knowing the zone at all, and not seeing a whole lot of players around your level in CL or Ant, would you still want a more challenging zone? I don't think new players are thinking "[Removed for Content], this is easy, where is the challenge here?"

Its all about OPTIONS, and the way these zones are designed now, players that want an outdoor challenge, simply dont have the option to get it. If you are going to nerf the zones so heavily, please place some roaming triple up heroic named in the zones (perferrably 5-6 levels above the zone limit) to add at least some sense of challenge and danger.

What the hell would this do to make the zone more "challenging"? It would just be bizarre and inconsistent with the zone design.

Dont make them quest mobs, so that those who want their carebear safety can easily avoid them. But give us something to make the zones interesting. As it is right now, these lowbie zones are like kiddie Disney Parks. If this tendency continues into higher zones, Im gonna look elsewhere.

There's a wildly popular new game called Vanguard you should try..

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Old 08-12-2007, 08:07 PM   #42
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the sad thing is it doesn't matter what they do to nek, I could clear less about it, NO one goes there, and its so hard to get a group for 20-30 I have to say its one of the hardest level ranges the only reason i would go to nek is nek 3 nek castle and journey boot runs
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:56 AM   #43
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Lancaster38 wrote:
mdell wrote:
Ogrebear wrote:
When there was group content out in out side zones not to many people went and did it. Most people when they form a group head to an instance or a dungeon they don't head out side. So one of there plans is to make the majoirty of out side zones soloable because of that.

This big grouping in overland zones arguement that you people are making has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP was talking about.  The point he is trying to make is that on a level 16 toon in Antonica you used to have the option of running up to that group of level 14 heroics gnolls and giving it a shot.  No quest, No reason really except to test the limits of your character and your skill.( and then trying it again at 17 and 18 in my case hehe)

The point is having the option, you could avoid the heroics easily if you paid attention.  Addmittedly I did not always pay attention either and I died a few times, but that is how we all learn what we can do and learn to pay attention.

Oh and ogre i only quoted your post because you were the last one that talked about grouping.

So, zone design should remain outdated and under-used so some people, such as the OP, can occasionally pump up their [Removed for Content] by taking on heroics 8 levels lower?

You do realize that this discussion is about lu37 not 13 or whatnot.  you could level appropriate run through nek forest and if you stayed on the road or really if you didn't try to find then you would not have seen any heroic content 2 weeks ago.  Now there is none.  The only heroics you would have found before 37 was on the outskirts of heroic zones in which case of course you need a group to  go in so you would have a group or you would die.  So since dieing does not mean anything execpt .5%xp then a new soloing player would realize they shouldn't go there or make sure they looked around. Nek of 2 weeks ago would not cause anyone enough frustration to quit the game.  That arguement is silly.

Crypt of Bretrayal is a zone i never have gone into much (and lived), but still leaving 2 or 3 ^^^ mobs in the zone where they did not affect travel would have been good.

Antonica was before lu37 very easy to navigate through.  There were some heroic groups of gnolls, but the zone is wide open and it was only a matter of not running straight into them to avoid them.

I am in no way nostalgic of camping scarecrows and things like that and i started the game after the shard running ended thank goodness. 

Lancaster, would 20 groups of heroics and 5 names in nek forest really ruin gameplay for a newby in a big zone like that?   Or the same situation in a huge zone like antonica or commonlands?  I really dont think it would.

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Old 08-14-2007, 07:35 AM   #44
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Rahatmattata wrote:
Vatec wrote:
Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

Grouping should be mandatory in a MMO. Guess you guys are lucky I didn't design any MMOs =P

Well, given no one would actually play such a masochistic MMO in the first place....
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:37 PM   #45
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Typhonian wrote:
Rahatmattata wrote:
Vatec wrote:
Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

Grouping should be mandatory in a MMO. Guess you guys are lucky I didn't design any MMOs =P

Well, given no one would actually play such a masochistic MMO in the first place....

Really? Cuz last time I looked FFXI (a forced grouping game) had well over twice the subscription numbers as EQ2. I think this whole concept of solo/heroic mobs is silly. Everything should just be heroic or epic. If you want to solo so bad, go kill green heroics if you can, otherwise join a group. If all the mobs in Ant and CL were heroic, well... people would form groups to get xp (I know... a far out concept, especially for a MMO).


 

I laugh at all the people that want everything "Group Only, Solo'ers Go to He!!" mentality.  That's nice.  Guess if you were the designers you'd have this environment:  50,000 active players and 300,000 inactive, never coming back, this game is too hard, players.  Way to keep your playerbase support folks!

Killing heroics is easy. Why would you think that killing group mobs in a group would be difficult? You honestly believe people would quit playing a game because they had to join other players to kill stuff? That aspect is what attracted me to MMOs.

Oh wait.  That's what SoE *is* doing:  Creating an environment in which people would want to come back, at all level ranges....just not yours.  Let's face it folks:  Unless a game has a **HEALTHY** lower level playerbase, having GROUP ONLY content isn't going to make those that *are* lower levels happy as they'ld constantly be faced with "Group Only" mobs, get frustrated and quit the game.  And then you'd have...well....no one....playing the lower levels.

OORRRRR.... those lower level players will use the little /invite command and make a little group and kill stuff. I've seen a lot of threads in the newbie yard, and other forum boards with new players being totally turned off to the game becuase they can't find groups. Why can't they find groups I wonder? Could it be due to the over saturated solo content everywhere you go? And when they do finally start to group up around level 30 or so, they are wearing pathetic level 3 gear with 6% mitigation and 0.0% avoidance from crap they quested back when they were level 5, with absolutly no clue how to play the game in a group with other players.

But that's just what you wanted right?  A "Challenge" at lower levels.

Sadly, the challenge at lower levels isn't killing heroics. Named hunting in Wailing Caves is relativly easy with a full group of level 15 players in level 10 handcrafted and app4s. The real challenge comes from peeling enough players away from all the solo trash to actually start a group. You'd be suprised how many dungeon crawls and named hunts I've been in with genuine new players, popping fabled and legendary boxes all over the zone, and at the end the new player says that's the most fun they've had so far. It sure as hell beats killing 10 solo beetles in Ant for some suck belt.


And why do I keep seeing people say "this game is made for the casual gamers"? Really? What game developer said this?

Keep nerfing your own game to appeal to Warcraft subscribers SOE. I could really care less at this point. I'll keep paying and playing until I get bored, and then move on /shrug

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Old 08-14-2007, 02:51 PM   #46
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Rahatmattata wrote:
Typhonian wrote:
Rahatmattata wrote:
Vatec wrote:
Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

Grouping should be mandatory in a MMO. Guess you guys are lucky I didn't design any MMOs =P

Well, given no one would actually play such a masochistic MMO in the first place....

Really? Cuz last time I looked FFXI (a forced grouping game) had well over twice the subscription numbers as EQ2. I think this whole concept of solo/heroic mobs is silly. Everything should just be heroic or epic. If you want to solo so bad, go kill green heroics if you can, otherwise join a group. If all the mobs in Ant and CL were heroic, well... people would form groups to get xp (I know... a far out concept, especially for a MMO).

And why do I keep seeing people say "this game is made for the casual gamers"? Really? What game developer said this?

Keep nerfing your own game to appeal to Warcraft subscribers SOE. I could really care less at this point. I'll keep paying and playing until I get bored, and then move on /shrug

I keep saying that if SoE keeps dumbing down the game to be more and more like WoW then people are going to go play the original....not some cheap want to be game like EQ2 is turning out to be.
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:29 PM   #47
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Oh trust, me, no one is wanting to play WoW anymore. No solo content at all after you've leveled to 70 and done the rep grinds....
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Old 08-15-2007, 06:38 PM   #48
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Really? Cuz last time I looked FFXI (a forced grouping game) had well over twice the subscription numbers as EQ2. I think this whole concept of solo/heroic mobs is silly. Everything should just be heroic or epic. If you want to solo so bad, go kill green heroics if you can, otherwise join a group. If all the mobs in Ant and CL were heroic, well... people would form groups to get xp (I know... a far out concept, especially for a MMO).
Don't confuse sub numbers with players.  Bots are subs, too.... and both FFXI and L2 are absolutely infested with them, far worse than you can imagine.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:24 AM   #49
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Rahatmattata wrote:
Typhonian wrote:
Rahatmattata wrote:
Vatec wrote:
Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

Grouping should be mandatory in a MMO. Guess you guys are lucky I didn't design any MMOs =P

Well, given no one would actually play such a masochistic MMO in the first place....

Really? Cuz last time I looked FFXI (a forced grouping game) had well over twice the subscription numbers as EQ2.

Yeah, and that has nothing to do with the fact that the Final Fantasy brand was immensely popular well beyond the boundaries of MMO-dom long before it was turned into one, just like Warcraft, does it? SMILEY
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:05 PM   #50
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Last I checked there were not many heroics in Barren Sky, Bonemire, and Loping Plains save a few on the edges nobody cared about. Why do you want a t2 zone to be harder than the t7 zones. /boggle Maybe t8 Kunark should be nothing but heroics and roaming epics with no solo content. I say leave the hard stuff for the end-game.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:53 AM   #51
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Novusod wrote:
Last I checked there were not many heroics in Barren Sky, Bonemire, and Loping Plains save a few on the edges nobody cared about. Why do you want a t2 zone to be harder than the t7 zones. /boggle Maybe t8 Kunark should be nothing but heroics and roaming epics with no solo content. I say leave the hard stuff for the end-game.

You are absolutely right those zones have heroic content that you do not have to fight if you don't want to.  What would be so bad about the lower level zones having heroic content that you did not have to fight if you didn't want to.  I'm more boggled than you by far.

Only heroics and roaming epics, umm no. 

Come on man 3 weeks ago nek and ant and cl were fine solo zones, but there were a few heroics around if you wanted to try them.  I just don't understand why you think that was a bad thing or why they are gone.

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Old 08-18-2007, 09:00 PM   #52
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Siogai wrote:
Don't confuse sub numbers with players.  Bots are subs, too.... and both FFXI and L2 are absolutely infested with them, far worse than you can imagine.

Just about every MMO is infested with plat selling farmers. Regardless, it's hard to argue with the fact that no matter what remote corner of the game you hide in, no matter what mobs you are killing, no matter what level you are, you're bound to see other people around you. When was the last time you had to compete for mobs in Edgewater Drains SMILEY


"Really? Cuz last time I looked FFXI (a forced grouping game) had well over twice the subscription numbers as EQ2."

"Yeah, and that has nothing to do with the fact that the Final Fantasy brand was immensely popular well beyond the boundaries of MMO-dom long before it was turned into one, just like Warcraft, does it? SMILEY "

Sure, Final Fantasy games have been highly popular for over a decade. Yes Final Fantasty has a large and dedicated fan base. Yes FFXI can be played on multiple platforms. That still doesn't change the fact that millions of players enjoy playing a forced grouping MMO and many of them (if not most) actively play on their accounts for YEARS without ever running out of things to do, or moving on to other MMOs. If forced grouping is such a game-breaker, I don't see how this could be true whether it's a highly popular game series or not. Millions of people aren't going to invest hundreds of dollars, and hundreds of hours of their lives into a game just because it says "Final Fantasy" on the box. They play it because it's fun. Because grouping with other players and making friends from all parts of the world is fun.

As a matter of opinion, the game is so outdated graphically and gameplay wise, I'd say if Square Enix suddenly made 50% of the content soloable, they would lose hundreds of accounts, and gain very few.

Just my opinion but, MMOs should be about playing with other players. Similar to playing Spades, or Backgammon, or Unreal Tournament. Sure you can play by yourself, but it should be much more rewarding and fun to play with other players. There are other single player games out there that can deliver a much better and rewarding single player experience. If you want to kill mobs by yourself, fine. But IMO, I don't think a MMO company should be spending such a large amount of time and effort developing solo content and rewarding solo play. They are falling short of delivering the experience a dedicated well designed single player game could, and short changing players that play MMOs to play... multiplayer games with other players.

There is tons and tons of solo content already. If I'm level 15 and want to solo, I have the entire Commonlands, all of Antonica, all of GFay, Freeport and Qeynos sewers, The Ruins, The Caves, Darklight Woods, various instances, and shallow Blackburrow/Wailing Caves. If I'm level 15 and want to group I have Wailing Caves, Blackburrow, various instances, and a handful of ^^ mobs in The Ruins. Or we can mass kill solo mobs for much less xp and virtually no challenge. And yet they continue to develop more and more solo content, while group content is getting snuffed out in some places, and confined in small out of the way dungeons in other places. This just seems backwards to me that in a massive multiplayer game, solo content is dominating.

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Old 08-20-2007, 06:19 AM   #53
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Rahatmattata wrote:

Just my opinion but, MMOs should be about playing with other players. Similar to playing Spades, or Backgammon, or Unreal Tournament. Sure you can play by yourself, but it should be much more rewarding and fun to play with other players. There are other single player games out there that can deliver a much better and rewarding single player experience. If you want to kill mobs by yourself, fine. But IMO, I don't think a MMO company should be spending such a large amount of time and effort developing solo content and rewarding solo play. They are falling short of delivering the experience a dedicated well designed single player game could, and short changing players that play MMOs to play... multiplayer games with other players

Well, SoE have decided otherwise:

 http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10002

"Solo content came up shortly afterwards and Lyndro surprisingly stated all overland zones would be almost completely solo content. "

I'm looking forward to RoK and this new content model (soloable with the occasional small-group content) immensely. It is how I think MMOs should be.

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Old 08-20-2007, 09:23 PM   #54
Zab101

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Just started a new toon and took him into Antonica today. I'm completely disgusted with the changes to this zone. Quest mobs are completely missing and I have yet to run into one group/encounter mob. Several of the linked mobs used to be needed for quests.

In addition, as mage my encounter aoe is pointless to use against single targets because of the longer cast time. My mage thrives on encounter aoe damage. In my opinion, it's rather boring not seeing heroics around, but the removal of encounter/group mobs is ridiculous and removes any sort of challenge. Why remove the linked mobs? Why not leave them in as non-heroic?

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Old 08-23-2007, 12:54 PM   #55
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It's arleady been pointed out in this thread that there are a LOT less people to group with these days in the low levels.  The game like any game has aged, and most are in the upper tiers now.  It only makes sense that they would make it easier for new people trying out the game.  No one around to group with?  No problem, there's plenty to do solo.

I know that the heroics in Nekt were opional before the change.  But I'm sure they removed them, to allow these new players to explore more freely, and by doing so make the zone feel larger.  Hey, it's still dangerous.  For a new player with non twink gear, all it takes is a few adds, and it's all over.

There's nothing wrong with a game model that places the group content in a dungeon.  Dungeons have always been meant to be grouped.  Now if they change dungeons so that they're soloable, well then that would be a different story.

SOE's changing the game to meet the demands of today's mmo player, which is more than just the young, it's the older crowd, with kids, work, night school you name it. Yeah the game has gotten easier, but there will always be a challenging end game.

EDIT:

Wanted to add that I'm playing 2 low level alts since returning to the game, and I can confirm that the low level zones are empty of players.  Grouping for a new player would be difficult.

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Old 08-23-2007, 01:29 PM   #56
Finora

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While I think they over did it a bit in Nektulos, in Antonica and Commonlands the big problem I see isn't the missing heroics but the missing encounters.

Seems everything is just single monsters except in Commonlands where you do still have the roaming groups of orcs (which were still herioc a couple weeks ago). If solo content is what they have to do to make these zones usable by new players joining the game, so be it, but for heavens sake leave some encounters. Those are good practice for newbies. They need to learn about the encounter system. It would suck for a group of newbs to go through all this single mob solo content then get to a dungeon like say Runnyeye and have this linked horde of goblins fall on them.

Newbies have encounter aoe's too=p. Let them learn to use them.

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Old 08-24-2007, 10:07 AM   #57
zaneluke

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Outside = solo mobs   mostly solo content.Inside ( dungeons instances) = heroic and grouped mobs.I honestly do not see a problem with this at all. Folks, not only are players toons aging, but the game does not have a heavy base anymore.
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Old 08-24-2007, 12:53 PM   #58
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Depsite all the changes to these zones, the old problem remains that the quests in Antonica and Commonlands are sporadic and disjointed, which is fine for higher level zones where players might be expected to work a little harder to find quests and content, it doesn't really make any sense in lowbie zones - especially big open empty ones like Antonica. And now that GFay and Darklight are around, it just shows up how inadequate Ant/Comm are compared to the them.
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:52 PM   #59
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[email protected] wrote:

/agree

 Especially about the lvl 70s who have no clue that really pisses me off SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

Ebayers suck.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:08 PM   #60
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1. FFXI is really the only viable console MMO out there, giving it a lock on that market. I'd argue this, and the FFXI brand have far more to do with the success of that game than any element of it's gameplay. 2. Soloing does not mean one is not social. Some seem to be under the impression that the only form of social gameplay can come from grouping.
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