what are the plans for the enchanter classes? - Page 2

Clownshoes · 02-22-2010, 06:33 PM

Enjoy trying to recruit 4 chanters for your guild's raids for the next 1.5 years.

It was bad enough with the chanter shortage blocking progression in TSO, and that was a pretty sweet expac for the class.

SF, haha what do you think will happen to the enchanter population, you can say 'chanters are where they should be' all you want, but in the end, that is not going to stop the people abandoning them as their class of choice.

This is SOE's trick to block raiding due to lack of content (tin foil hat go!)

Gungo · 02-22-2010, 06:36 PM

dlove183 wrote:

ok. so the consensus is. illies should be boring to play and do very low if any dps. they should top some of the healers. they should never top any t1 or t2 dps. they should stand back and mezz all those epics. /sarcasm off

Actually the concensus was your dps should be less then the 4 pure dps classes. Wiz/warlock/asassin/ranger. It should be slightly less or comparable to the 4 debuff classes swash, brig, conjuror, necro and at least the SAME as dirges and troubadors.

Right now every enchanter can out parse both bards and is comparable dps to brig, swash, necro. Conjurors seem to have a bit more dps then the rest especially since this is a very aoe heavy expansion. Your issue is simply you are not parsing assassin, wizard, warlock levels.

Gungo · 02-22-2010, 06:40 PM

dlove183 wrote:

gungo.
an illies power regen is 66. a bard is 75 and I believe 96 with the drum. take the illy myth away and they make very little power. all we have is manaflow that is nothing compared to a coercers flow. they get AA to enhance theirs. manashroud, manatap, and savante only do so much. I hate to cloud up an arguement with facts.

Most bards i know dont use thier drum, heck most bards dont even run thier power song. But lets assume they did, while conviently unincluding the illusionist myth. 75-66=9 extra power regen a tick every 6 seconds is 54 extra power a minute.are you even remotely trying to claim Shroud, manatap, savante cant regain 54 power a minute?You might want to work on those facts.

Gungo · 02-22-2010, 06:44 PM

Spryt wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
dlove183 wrote:
we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right?
Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football".
Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun.
I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something.
Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters:
Sorc/pred 35-40k
Summoner/rouge 25-30k
SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k
Bards 15k
Inq 11k
Illu 10k
Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much.

Good thing most buffs persist through death.And honestly if your parse looks like that you need to learn to play.Enchanters were putting up HIGHER numbers in TSO. NOTHING as nerfed in this expansion regarding dps. You only gained DPS.So if your putting up lower numbers then enchanters were last expansion. It's not the class now is it.

Spryt · 02-22-2010, 07:01 PM

Gungo wrote:

Spryt wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
dlove183 wrote:
we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right?
Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football".
Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun.
I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something.
Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters:
Sorc/pred 35-40k
Summoner/rouge 25-30k
SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k
Bards 15k
Inq 11k
Illu 10k
Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much.
Good thing most buffs persist through death.And honestly if your parse looks like that you need to learn to play.Enchanters were putting up HIGHER numbers in TSO. NOTHING as nerfed in this expansion regarding dps. You only gained DPS.So if your putting up lower numbers then enchanters were last expansion. It's not the class now is it.

Well single target buffs don't persist though death. Heck we cant even cast our now AA spell while moving.

And yes maybe I am not the best illu WW and needs to learn how to play. But the numbers i posted before are not exact numbers from some trash fight. They are examples just to show what kind of gaps there are between "pure" dps classes and "buffers". And i'm not talking about some stupid aoe heavy fight like the ones in TSO palace. Single target SF x4 mobs. How does the parse in your raid look? your chanters still up there just behind the sorc? In TSO if sorc was doing 30k dps I would do about 20-25k. If Sorc did 20k I would do 10-15k. Not Sorc doing 20k me doing 5-8k

dlove1 · 02-22-2010, 07:02 PM

Most bards i know dont use thier drum, heck most bards dont even run thier power song. But lets assume they did, while conviently unincluding the illusionist myth. 75-66=9 extra power regen a tick every 6 seconds is 54 extra power a minute.are you even remotely trying to claim Shroud, manatap, savante cant regain 54 power a minute?

no. I was making the point that bards power song is stronger that what most people think is where our power comes from. having to actually use those spells takes even more away from our already low dps. take away an illy's myth and they stink at regen. coercers win in power regen.

buffs persist through death? maybe your class's buffs do. single target buffs do not. illies have to recast a lot not only after their own death but also when anyone dies that said buffs were cast on. wizard death = illy casting TC and tandem again.

and get this. our dps went down because we DONT GET CASTING BUFFS ANYMORE!!! hello? how many times do I have to say that before you listen?

wickermanuk · 02-22-2010, 11:42 PM

Gungo wrote:

Spryt wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
dlove183 wrote:
we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right?
Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football".
Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun.
I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something.
Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters:
Sorc/pred 35-40k
Summoner/rouge 25-30k
SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k
Bards 15k
Inq 11k
Illu 10k
Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much.
Good thing most buffs persist through death.And honestly if your parse looks like that you need to learn to play.Enchanters were putting up HIGHER numbers in TSO. NOTHING as nerfed in this expansion regarding dps. You only gained DPS.So if your putting up lower numbers then enchanters were last expansion. It's not the class now is it.

[Removed for Content] there speaks someone who has never played a chanter on a raid.

Here's what a illy has to do when they die on a raid:

1. Cast 4 individual tandem buffs

2. Cast 1 IA single buff

3. Cast 1 TC single buff

4. Cast 1 Melee AOE single buff

Thats 7 buffs on 7 different people right there.

Now throw in recast of your pet (if your crazy) and the endless calls for powerfeeds and the new jcap style ability and you have a class that is a NIGHTMARE to play and no fun at all.

Slaspen · 02-23-2010, 01:26 AM

Then don't die...

wickermanuk · 02-23-2010, 02:10 AM

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Then don't die...

Oh but you forget you have to also buff everyone else when THEY die. Unless you have played a illy on a raid for a longtime then you honestly have NO idea the shear mind numbing boredom of having to constantly buff people.

I got into beta and was amazed they gave the class yet another single target buff and more insane a 5sec jcap ability, to me its obvious that not one dev has ever played the class to realize the extent of the shear frustration illys have with buffing people.

DPS helped make the class somewhat torrible but that has been eroded over the course of a year due to people screaming 'omg look at your buffs', what the class is now left with is nothing more than a AF bot.

I am fine with taking away illy dps, but DON'T make the class into nothing more than a AF toon that provides buffs.

Oh and while I am at it, why the hell can I not cast TC on myself? Any reason, is that suddenly going to propel me to the top of the parse, no its not so make it happen ffs.

Arathy · 02-23-2010, 02:34 AM

Geothe wrote:

chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top; then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards.

Complete garbage dude. We (and I'm talking Coercers for the most part) have crap in the way of group buffs. Oh wow, group DPS.. [Removed for Content] near everyone is capped or close to anyway. Coercive Shout is terrible, Coercive healing is decent, and that's about it. Illusionists meanwhile buff everything else in the raid. Both of us got the shaft when it came to AA's this expansion. While Sorcerers and Summoners got a bunch of damage boosts, we got 2 on our green AE's which do low damage comparitively, and then a bunch of medicore trash that doesn't do jack for raids. Oooh.. 60 secs on Mana Shroud. Shroud is nearly useless anyway. You have to time it with AEs hittings and then grats. You've used 1 of the 3 triggers for tiny power return and the other 2 triggers expire. Our class is in trouble and the devs haven't given us anything to indicate they know how to address the problems.

Rather than fixing our abilities that trivialize encounters like Thought Snap and Amnesia, they are gutted and left that way.

What else to we do except hit mana flow once everything 30 seconds? Nothing. So we better have decent damage, otherwise grab a second account, and a yardstick. Every 30 secs hit that second keyboard, or when power is needed.

Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there. It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently.

Atragon · 02-23-2010, 04:03 AM

believe spells, while not huge gains up front, will be better because they're easier to land/less resistant by mobs.

Gungo · 02-23-2010, 05:40 AM

dlove183 wrote:

and get this. our dps went down because we DONT GET CASTING BUFFS ANYMORE!!! hello? how many times do I have to say that before you listen?

Your claim that troubs will cast UT on themselves rather then enchanters and mystics will skip enchanters on ROA rotations is completely hogwash unless your guild troub thinks you personally dont deserve the buff. Right now troubs are the lowest dps class of every caster/scout and have mixed melee/spells dps making casting UT on themselves alot less effective then casting it on ANY caster.

Again your DPS didnt go down. The only thing i keep seeing from you is the fact you dont play your class well.

Right now every enchanter can out parse both bards and is comparable dps to brig, swash, necro. Conjurors seem to have a bit more dps then the rest especially since this is a very aoe heavy expansion. Your issue is simply you are not parsing assassin, wizard, warlock levels. That is your complaint and its quite frankly laughable.

Lleren · 02-23-2010, 05:42 AM

[email protected] wrote:

Geothe wrote:
chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top; then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards.
Complete garbage dude. < ranting removed >
Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there. It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently.

If some classes aren't supposed to outdamage the utility classes. why would they be sought for raids? We could grab our tanks ( 2 or 3) then our healers ( 6 to 7 ) and fill the rest with chanters and bards ( 14 - 16 ) ... play some round robin with some buffs and rule the world. Well, maybe you'd fit a hate transfer person or two in there...

Some classes are designed to outdamage other classes.

If Sorcerers and Predators did not provide comparably large amounts of DPS to a Raid they would have no reason to be in the Raid to begin with...

The listing of tiers we saw was old and outdated, however it is generally easy to see that certain classes by design, should be putting out larger numbers then some other classes. Gear and Player Skill taken into account of course.

If every class did similar DPS and had similar utility ( played and geared well ) then we might as well raid with 4 tanks and 20 healers!

dlove1 · 02-23-2010, 11:53 AM

"Your claim that troubs will cast UT on themselves rather then enchanters and mystics will skip enchanters on ROA rotations is completely hogwash unless your guild troub thinks you personally dont deserve the buff. Right now troubs are the lowest dps class of every caster/scout and have mixed melee/spells dps making casting UT on themselves alot less effective then casting it on ANY caster."

where the hell did I say the troub was casting UT on themselves in a raid? did I say I was the only mage in the raid? do you just insert words with your mind when you read? can you read? if you want to argue with me at least stop making stuff up.

do you even play this game? I'm not the only mage in the mage group. UT goes to the summoners that are now gonna be in every mage group. the Jcap rotation is only about 6people. a typical raid has 2 sorcs, (now) 2 summoners, 4 enchanters. and I got news for you: brigs/swash/conjis/necro/dirges are SMOKIN chanters on the parses. all you can come up with is the same old tired "you don't play your class well" that is exactly how I earned a spot in a top guild. it's because I suck at the class. oh and btw UT benefits ALL classes. you can put it on a ranger and it will add a few K to his parse. if you are putting on the mystic, you really are as dumb as you sound.

why don't you post a parse of your L33T chanters at level 90 topping all those classes in the L33t raid force that you are a part of. when I see your chanters great numbers, maybe I'll be so inspired that I'll go play and strive to be as great as gongo or [Removed for Content] your name is.

Slaspen · 02-23-2010, 11:54 AM

wickermanuk wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:
Then don't die...
Oh but you forget you have to also buff everyone else when THEY die. Unless you have played a illy on a raid for a longtime then you honestly have NO idea the shear mind numbing boredom of having to constantly buff people.
I got into beta and was amazed they gave the class yet another single target buff and more insane a 5sec jcap ability, to me its obvious that not one dev has ever played the class to realize the extent of the shear frustration illys have with buffing people.
DPS helped make the class somewhat torrible but that has been eroded over the course of a year due to people screaming 'omg look at your buffs', what the class is now left with is nothing more than a AF bot.
I am fine with taking away illy dps, but DON'T make the class into nothing more than a AF toon that provides buffs.
Oh and while I am at it, why the hell can I not cast TC on myself? Any reason, is that suddenly going to propel me to the top of the parse, no its not so make it happen ffs.

I played an illy on raids..... takes about max 2-3 seconds to rebuff someone that dies, not that hard work really imo.

GuardianKing · 02-23-2010, 12:10 PM

I Still play my necro and do very well on the parse listing.. I usually run about 8th on the parse and in a full raid that is not bad..

There is always someone that is not happy with their class.

I solo like a monster and parse ok. If you are not happy with the class quit. there are a lot of chanters that love their class. We are not the OMG we need a chanter or we can not complete this raid type of class and we will never be. If you can not get into a raid group create your own.

dlove1 · 02-23-2010, 12:31 PM

there were a lot of chanters that loved their class.

fixed

Drulon · 02-23-2010, 12:46 PM

Chanter is on the shelf.. dusting the wizard back off.

Its pretty easy to tell who the folks are that play at the top end.. and who are casuals.

Unfortunatly the raiders are like 8% of the population and will never be catered to.

Yimway · 02-23-2010, 01:23 PM

Drulon wrote:

Its pretty easy to tell who the folks are that play at the top end.. and who are casuals.
Unfortunatly the raiders are like 8% of the population and will never be catered to.

I'd love to know where you get that number from.

Near as I can tell 40-60% of the population at top tier are wearing guild tags that atleast raid 1/wk. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is even higher.

But in regards to enchanters, we still want 4 of them on raids, nothing has changed. The only thing different is your pecking order on the dps parse, and honestly, that has NO BEARING on the class desirability for raiding.

The only bearing it has is on your epean.

Banditman · 02-23-2010, 01:39 PM

[email protected] wrote:

I'd love to know where you get that number from.
Near as I can tell 40-60% of the population at top tier are wearing guild tags that atleast raid 1/wk. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is even higher.
But in regards to enchanters, we still want 4 of them on raids, nothing has changed. The only thing different is your pecking order on the dps parse, and honestly, that has NO BEARING on the class desirability for raiding.
The only bearing it has is on your epean.

You're wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

The thing that is changed is that it is no longer fun to play the class.

Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone *wants* a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many.

That's the problem.

Spryt · 02-23-2010, 01:39 PM

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
Geothe wrote:
chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top; then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards.
Complete garbage dude. < ranting removed >
Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there. It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently.
If some classes aren't supposed to outdamage the utility classes. why would they be sought for raids? We could grab our tanks ( 2 or 3) then our healers ( 6 to 7 ) and fill the rest with chanters and bards ( 14 - 16 ) ... play some round robin with some buffs and rule the world. Well, maybe you'd fit a hate transfer person or two in there...
Some classes are designed to outdamage other classes.
If Sorcerers and Predators did not provide comparably large amounts of DPS to a Raid they would have no reason to be in the Raid to begin with...
The listing of tiers we saw was old and outdated, however it is generally easy to see that certain classes by design, should be putting out larger numbers then some other classes. Gear and Player Skill taken into account of course.
If every class did similar DPS and had similar utility ( played and geared well ) then we might as well raid with 4 tanks and 20 healers!

Yes some classes should be doing more dps then others to balance the utility vs dps.

By the looks of SF AA SoE are spreading the utility a lot more then to the traditional bard/chanter buffers. Wizards get some kind of melee gift proc spell, I think conj get something similar.

So the gap between the amount of utility a chanter brings to raids/groups compared to other mages is getting smaller, yet the amount of dps chanters do compared to other mages is getting a lot bigger.

I don't think anyone is saying chanters should be T1 dps but why does the gap between them and other dps have to be so big? Bards have way more to offer in terms of group buffs (even their single target ones UT/BC are superior to the illu ones) compared to chanters yet they are now doing the same or more dps.

Atragon · 02-23-2010, 01:41 PM

Banditman wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
I'd love to know where you get that number from.
Near as I can tell 40-60% of the population at top tier are wearing guild tags that atleast raid 1/wk. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is even higher.
But in regards to enchanters, we still want 4 of them on raids, nothing has changed. The only thing different is your pecking order on the dps parse, and honestly, that has NO BEARING on the class desirability for raiding.
The only bearing it has is on your epean.
You're wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
The thing that is changed is that it is no longer fun to play the class.
Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone *wants* a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many.
That's the problem.

Same could be said for bards. And they don't even have dps to fall back on.

Yimway · 02-23-2010, 01:45 PM

Banditman wrote:

Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone *wants* a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many.

Every troub I know?

They log in thinking, I'll immediatly be desired in a group.

kanei_eun · 02-23-2010, 02:05 PM

Am I the only one who enjoys seeing everyone at full power in my group? Am I the only one who enjoys putting people into the fire/salting healers? Am I the only one who enjoys curing arcane off healers? Am I the only one who enjoys topping the power parse in raids( <3 Desolation)? I guess bring it on.

Spryt · 02-23-2010, 02:11 PM

[email protected] wrote:

Banditman wrote:
Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone *wants* a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many.
Every troub I know?
They log in thinking, I'll immediatly be desired in a group.

Some people are happy being desired for skills SoE gave their class. Others are would rather be desired for player skills.

A lot of people see groups/raids/guilds looking for chanters and bards. So they refer a friend level one in a few days and start playing. They have the buffs so they are wanted on raids and nobody seams to care about dps or player skill. 2 Expansions later and they still have no idea how to play and no desire to improve as they will always get a raid spot as long as they keep those buffs running.

Not my kind of fun. But yes maybe the toubs/chanters in your guild enjoy this kind of "gameplay".

Yimway · 02-23-2010, 02:30 PM

Spryt wrote:

Some people are happy being desired for skills SoE gave their class. Others are would rather be desired for player skills.
A lot of people see groups/raids/guilds looking for chanters and bards. So they refer a friend level one in a few days and start playing. They have the buffs so they are wanted on raids and nobody seams to care about dps or player skill. 2 Expansions later and they still have no idea how to play and no desire to improve as they will always get a raid spot as long as they keep those buffs running.
Not my kind of fun. But yes maybe the toubs/chanters in your guild enjoy this kind of "gameplay".

No everyone is expected to play their class to high degree of its potential. Its not really an issue if the troubs potential doesn't rival T2 classes, as the troub is still desperately wanted in the raid. The exact same is true of enchanters. The only outcry here is centered around individuals personal perception of their worth by their ranking in a dps parse.

The concern here isn't about playing the class to the potential, which of course can still be done. You can still be the 'best' illusionist in game. You simply can't be the best and be a true T1/T2 dps class now. That change has no bearing on your class desirability or your own ability to meet the dps potential of the class. It only affects your ranking as compaired to other classes.

If your playing the game to compete dps numbers against different classes, I'll argue your either playing the wrong game or the wrong class.

The fact that the bard/ench dps potential isn't as high as T1/T2 dps classes isn't really a deal breaker here. It really just sounds like a lot of whining enchanters who are finally back in the dps tier the class was designed for.

If anything, my only concerns are over dirges possibly still being a bit high.

Banditman · 02-23-2010, 02:55 PM

[email protected] wrote:

The only outcry here is centered around individuals personal perception of their worth by their ranking in a dps parse.

NO. You are missing it.

Chanters can take DPS or leave it. They want to be "wanted" for their skill as a player. What's the difference between a terrible Troub and a good one? Not really all that much. That's why Troubs remain one of the least played classes in the game.

What both Enchanters want is to see the delta between a "good" player and a "bad" player be high, and to have that delta make a noticeable difference in the game.

Many options have been offered, none have even been acknowledged by the powers that be.

Good luck finding chanters in SF.

dlove1 · 02-23-2010, 02:58 PM

"The fact that the bard/ench dps potential isn't as high as T1/T2 dps classes isn't really a deal breaker here. It really just sounds like a lot of whining enchanters who are finally back in the dps tier the class was designed for."

I have to say that we were never out of the tier that we were designed for. even in TSO we were 5th and 6th in mage dps. summoners got very few if any raid spots in highend guilds. most people didn't get to see them outparse chanters. they did. my #1 issue with dps is the fact that they jacked us on the crit modifier. this takes us down to the bottom of the barrell. a spell that hits for 1000 damage will max crit for a chanter at 1300. it will max crit for everyone else at 1500. my hardest hitting spell in TSO (master strike) hit for a maximum of around 14500. wizards were dropping single target BoI for 120,000 and getting DA on top of that for 240,000 single spell hits.

the fun of the class for me was taking a class that was 5th or 6th in mage dps potential and forcing it into 2nd or 3rd while still doing my other jobs. I loved having other people that played chanters or other mages send me tells "htf do you do that?" with the new changes, they have forced us to the bottom of the parse. even with all the nerfs and handicaps they have saddled us with, if some talented chanter finds a way to top a parse people will still scream that we are OP because a fabled/mastered chanter beat a treasured/adept sorc on a parse.

doing 10k while every other mage class is over 20k = unrewarding. having the inq right behind me on the dps parse = unrewarding. atm my class has as many temp buffs as it has damage spells. these are the reasons I stopped playing my troub. I'm not looking to top every parse. I also don't wanna be the one-legged guy in a foot race.

I know enchanters are still needed on raids. so are troubs. how many troubs do you see? my guild is always looking for troubs. most guilds are always looking for troubs. now, guilds will be looking for troubs and chanters.

Yimway · 02-23-2010, 02:59 PM

Banditman wrote:

What's the difference between a terrible Troub and a good one? Not really all that much.

About 6k dps and the ability to pay attention.

Spryt · 02-23-2010, 03:04 PM

[email protected] wrote:

Spryt wrote:
Some people are happy being desired for skills SoE gave their class. Others are would rather be desired for player skills.
A lot of people see groups/raids/guilds looking for chanters and bards. So they refer a friend level one in a few days and start playing. They have the buffs so they are wanted on raids and nobody seams to care about dps or player skill. 2 Expansions later and they still have no idea how to play and no desire to improve as they will always get a raid spot as long as they keep those buffs running.
Not my kind of fun. But yes maybe the toubs/chanters in your guild enjoy this kind of "gameplay".
No everyone is expected to play their class to high degree of its potential. Its not really an issue if the troubs potential doesn't rival T2 classes, as the troub is still desperately wanted in the raid. The exact same is true of enchanters. The only outcry here is centered around individuals personal perception of their worth by their ranking in a dps parse.
The concern here isn't about playing the class to the potential, which of course can still be done. You can still be the 'best' illusionist in game. You simply can't be the best and be a true T1/T2 dps class now. That change has no bearing on your class desirability or your own ability to meet the dps potential of the class. It only affects your ranking as compaired to other classes.
If your playing the game to compete dps numbers against different classes, I'll argue your either playing the wrong game or the wrong class.
The fact that the bard/ench dps potential isn't as high as T1/T2 dps classes isn't really a deal breaker here. It really just sounds like a lot of whining enchanters who are finally back in the dps tier the class was designed for.
If anything, my only concerns are over dirges possibly still being a bit high.

Everyone keeps coming with the same argument dps vs utility and how chanters shouldn't be top dps etc, etc. They are not top dps. They were not top dps in TSO, they were not top dps in RoK or any expansion before that. A lot of balancing has been done over the years to bring them more in line with other classes. But whatever they did in SF is just too much. The gap is now way too big. If chanters are ment to be doing bard dps then we should atleast have equally good buffs as bards. All illu buffs except haste a bard has an improved version of. And btw chanters are not bards, yes both have utility but nowhere near the same amount nor should they have. So stop comparing them.

All other classes have seen improvements and progression even without new spells/gear. I still play my illu the same way I did in TSO and still get the same dps I had in TSO. The problem is I just grinded 10 more levels and some aa and even got some upgraded gear and I am still in the exact same place I was in 1 month ago. No noticeable improvements or progression whatsoever.

02-22-2010, 06:36 PM	#32
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	dlove183 wrote: ok. so the consensus is. illies should be boring to play and do very low if any dps. they should top some of the healers. they should never top any t1 or t2 dps. they should stand back and mezz all those epics. /sarcasm off Actually the concensus was your dps should be less then the 4 pure dps classes. Wiz/warlock/asassin/ranger. It should be slightly less or comparable to the 4 debuff classes swash, brig, conjuror, necro and at least the SAME as dirges and troubadors. Right now every enchanter can out parse both bards and is comparable dps to brig, swash, necro. Conjurors seem to have a bit more dps then the rest especially since this is a very aoe heavy expansion. Your issue is simply you are not parsing assassin, wizard, warlock levels.

02-22-2010, 06:40 PM	#33
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	dlove183 wrote: gungo. an illies power regen is 66. a bard is 75 and I believe 96 with the drum. take the illy myth away and they make very little power. all we have is manaflow that is nothing compared to a coercers flow. they get AA to enhance theirs. manashroud, manatap, and savante only do so much. I hate to cloud up an arguement with facts. Most bards i know dont use thier drum, heck most bards dont even run thier power song. But lets assume they did, while conviently unincluding the illusionist myth. 75-66=9 extra power regen a tick every 6 seconds is 54 extra power a minute.are you even remotely trying to claim Shroud, manatap, savante cant regain 54 power a minute?You might want to work on those facts.

02-22-2010, 06:44 PM	#34
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Spryt wrote: [email protected] wrote: dlove183 wrote: we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right? Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football". Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun. I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something. Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters: Sorc/pred 35-40k Summoner/rouge 25-30k SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k Bards 15k Inq 11k Illu 10k Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much. Good thing most buffs persist through death.And honestly if your parse looks like that you need to learn to play.Enchanters were putting up HIGHER numbers in TSO. NOTHING as nerfed in this expansion regarding dps. You only gained DPS.So if your putting up lower numbers then enchanters were last expansion. It's not the class now is it.

02-22-2010, 07:01 PM	#35
Spryt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	Gungo wrote: Spryt wrote: [email protected] wrote: dlove183 wrote: we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right? Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football". Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun. I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something. Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters: Sorc/pred 35-40k Summoner/rouge 25-30k SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k Bards 15k Inq 11k Illu 10k Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much. Good thing most buffs persist through death.And honestly if your parse looks like that you need to learn to play.Enchanters were putting up HIGHER numbers in TSO. NOTHING as nerfed in this expansion regarding dps. You only gained DPS.So if your putting up lower numbers then enchanters were last expansion. It's not the class now is it. Well single target buffs don't persist though death. Heck we cant even cast our now AA spell while moving. And yes maybe I am not the best illu WW and needs to learn how to play. But the numbers i posted before are not exact numbers from some trash fight. They are examples just to show what kind of gaps there are between "pure" dps classes and "buffers". And i'm not talking about some stupid aoe heavy fight like the ones in TSO palace. Single target SF x4 mobs. How does the parse in your raid look? your chanters still up there just behind the sorc? In TSO if sorc was doing 30k dps I would do about 20-25k. If Sorc did 20k I would do 10-15k. Not Sorc doing 20k me doing 5-8k

02-22-2010, 11:42 PM	#37
wickermanuk Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 141	Gungo wrote: Spryt wrote: [email protected] wrote: dlove183 wrote: we should be right back at 20k or so. sure the sorcs will be doing 50 and the summoners will be in the 30s. who cares. if a class is wanted on raids it must be fun to play right? Stop looking at a parse and you might have more fun. Otherwise just roll a Wiz. It is like you are playing basketball and saying "I like football but hate basketball, we should make basketball more like football". Want to know what is fun? It's having a fun and active part of the grp or raid you are in. Rebuffing people that die is not fun. Casting 9 buffs when you die is not fun. Doing less dps then a inq as a mage is not fun. I don't expect illu to be top parse but I do want any dps that I work [Removed for Content] hard to pull off to actually mean something. Our SF raids look something like this, all TSO gear and old masters: Sorc/pred 35-40k Summoner/rouge 25-30k SK/Pally/Bruiser 20k Bards 15k Inq 11k Illu 10k Yeah 10k was nice dps maybe in TSO. But not now when max dps is 3x as much. Good thing most buffs persist through death.And honestly if your parse looks like that you need to learn to play.Enchanters were putting up HIGHER numbers in TSO. NOTHING as nerfed in this expansion regarding dps. You only gained DPS.So if your putting up lower numbers then enchanters were last expansion. It's not the class now is it. [Removed for Content] there speaks someone who has never played a chanter on a raid. Here's what a illy has to do when they die on a raid: 1. Cast 4 individual tandem buffs 2. Cast 1 IA single buff 3. Cast 1 TC single buff 4. Cast 1 Melee AOE single buff Thats 7 buffs on 7 different people right there. Now throw in recast of your pet (if your crazy) and the endless calls for powerfeeds and the new jcap style ability and you have a class that is a NIGHTMARE to play and no fun at all.

02-22-2010, 06:33 PM	#31
Clownshoes Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 11	Enjoy trying to recruit 4 chanters for your guild's raids for the next 1.5 years. It was bad enough with the chanter shortage blocking progression in TSO, and that was a pretty sweet expac for the class. SF, haha what do you think will happen to the enchanter population, you can say 'chanters are where they should be' all you want, but in the end, that is not going to stop the people abandoning them as their class of choice. This is SOE's trick to block raiding due to lack of content (tin foil hat go!)

02-22-2010, 07:02 PM	#36
dlove1 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 57	Most bards i know dont use thier drum, heck most bards dont even run thier power song. But lets assume they did, while conviently unincluding the illusionist myth. 75-66=9 extra power regen a tick every 6 seconds is 54 extra power a minute.are you even remotely trying to claim Shroud, manatap, savante cant regain 54 power a minute? no. I was making the point that bards power song is stronger that what most people think is where our power comes from. having to actually use those spells takes even more away from our already low dps. take away an illy's myth and they stink at regen. coercers win in power regen. buffs persist through death? maybe your class's buffs do. single target buffs do not. illies have to recast a lot not only after their own death but also when anyone dies that said buffs were cast on. wizard death = illy casting TC and tandem again. and get this. our dps went down because we DONT GET CASTING BUFFS ANYMORE!!! hello? how many times do I have to say that before you listen?

02-23-2010, 01:26 AM	#38
Slaspen Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Vivid Rank: Raider - Veteran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 59	Then don't die... __________________ Golbezz wrote: If casual players actually put as much effort into learning their class as they do calling for content difficulty nerfs they might actually find that most group content is not anywhere close to being too difficult.

02-23-2010, 02:10 AM	#39
wickermanuk Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 141	[email protected] DLere wrote: Then don't die... Oh but you forget you have to also buff everyone else when THEY die. Unless you have played a illy on a raid for a longtime then you honestly have NO idea the shear mind numbing boredom of having to constantly buff people. I got into beta and was amazed they gave the class yet another single target buff and more insane a 5sec jcap ability, to me its obvious that not one dev has ever played the class to realize the extent of the shear frustration illys have with buffing people. DPS helped make the class somewhat torrible but that has been eroded over the course of a year due to people screaming 'omg look at your buffs', what the class is now left with is nothing more than a AF bot. I am fine with taking away illy dps, but DON'T make the class into nothing more than a AF toon that provides buffs. Oh and while I am at it, why the hell can I not cast TC on myself? Any reason, is that suddenly going to propel me to the top of the parse, no its not so make it happen ffs.

02-23-2010, 02:34 AM	#40
Arathy General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 171	Geothe wrote: chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top; then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards. Complete garbage dude. We (and I'm talking Coercers for the most part) have crap in the way of group buffs. Oh wow, group DPS.. [Removed for Content] near everyone is capped or close to anyway. Coercive Shout is terrible, Coercive healing is decent, and that's about it. Illusionists meanwhile buff everything else in the raid. Both of us got the shaft when it came to AA's this expansion. While Sorcerers and Summoners got a bunch of damage boosts, we got 2 on our green AE's which do low damage comparitively, and then a bunch of medicore trash that doesn't do jack for raids. Oooh.. 60 secs on Mana Shroud. Shroud is nearly useless anyway. You have to time it with AEs hittings and then grats. You've used 1 of the 3 triggers for tiny power return and the other 2 triggers expire. Our class is in trouble and the devs haven't given us anything to indicate they know how to address the problems. Rather than fixing our abilities that trivialize encounters like Thought Snap and Amnesia, they are gutted and left that way. What else to we do except hit mana flow once everything 30 seconds? Nothing. So we better have decent damage, otherwise grab a second account, and a yardstick. Every 30 secs hit that second keyboard, or when power is needed. Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there. It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently.

02-23-2010, 04:03 AM	#41
Atragon Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 155	believe spells, while not huge gains up front, will be better because they're easier to land/less resistant by mobs.

02-23-2010, 05:40 AM	#42
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	dlove183 wrote: and get this. our dps went down because we DONT GET CASTING BUFFS ANYMORE!!! hello? how many times do I have to say that before you listen? Your claim that troubs will cast UT on themselves rather then enchanters and mystics will skip enchanters on ROA rotations is completely hogwash unless your guild troub thinks you personally dont deserve the buff. Right now troubs are the lowest dps class of every caster/scout and have mixed melee/spells dps making casting UT on themselves alot less effective then casting it on ANY caster. Again your DPS didnt go down. The only thing i keep seeing from you is the fact you dont play your class well. Right now every enchanter can out parse both bards and is comparable dps to brig, swash, necro. Conjurors seem to have a bit more dps then the rest especially since this is a very aoe heavy expansion. Your issue is simply you are not parsing assassin, wizard, warlock levels. That is your complaint and its quite frankly laughable.

02-23-2010, 05:42 AM	#43
Lleren Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 678	[email protected] wrote: Geothe wrote: chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top; then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards. Complete garbage dude. < ranting removed > Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there. It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently. If some classes aren't supposed to outdamage the utility classes. why would they be sought for raids? We could grab our tanks ( 2 or 3) then our healers ( 6 to 7 ) and fill the rest with chanters and bards ( 14 - 16 ) ... play some round robin with some buffs and rule the world. Well, maybe you'd fit a hate transfer person or two in there... Some classes are designed to outdamage other classes. If Sorcerers and Predators did not provide comparably large amounts of DPS to a Raid they would have no reason to be in the Raid to begin with... The listing of tiers we saw was old and outdated, however it is generally easy to see that certain classes by design, should be putting out larger numbers then some other classes. Gear and Player Skill taken into account of course. If every class did similar DPS and had similar utility ( played and geared well ) then we might as well raid with 4 tanks and 20 healers! __________________ Llyren, Martn, and Noih hunting for cheese in all the wrong places.

02-23-2010, 11:53 AM	#44
dlove1 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 57	"Your claim that troubs will cast UT on themselves rather then enchanters and mystics will skip enchanters on ROA rotations is completely hogwash unless your guild troub thinks you personally dont deserve the buff. Right now troubs are the lowest dps class of every caster/scout and have mixed melee/spells dps making casting UT on themselves alot less effective then casting it on ANY caster." where the hell did I say the troub was casting UT on themselves in a raid? did I say I was the only mage in the raid? do you just insert words with your mind when you read? can you read? if you want to argue with me at least stop making stuff up. do you even play this game? I'm not the only mage in the mage group. UT goes to the summoners that are now gonna be in every mage group. the Jcap rotation is only about 6people. a typical raid has 2 sorcs, (now) 2 summoners, 4 enchanters. and I got news for you: brigs/swash/conjis/necro/dirges are SMOKIN chanters on the parses. all you can come up with is the same old tired "you don't play your class well" that is exactly how I earned a spot in a top guild. it's because I suck at the class. oh and btw UT benefits ALL classes. you can put it on a ranger and it will add a few K to his parse. if you are putting on the mystic, you really are as dumb as you sound. why don't you post a parse of your L33T chanters at level 90 topping all those classes in the L33t raid force that you are a part of. when I see your chanters great numbers, maybe I'll be so inspired that I'll go play and strive to be as great as gongo or [Removed for Content] your name is.

02-23-2010, 11:54 AM	#45
Slaspen Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Vivid Rank: Raider - Veteran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 59	wickermanuk wrote: [email protected] DLere wrote: Then don't die... Oh but you forget you have to also buff everyone else when THEY die. Unless you have played a illy on a raid for a longtime then you honestly have NO idea the shear mind numbing boredom of having to constantly buff people. I got into beta and was amazed they gave the class yet another single target buff and more insane a 5sec jcap ability, to me its obvious that not one dev has ever played the class to realize the extent of the shear frustration illys have with buffing people. DPS helped make the class somewhat torrible but that has been eroded over the course of a year due to people screaming 'omg look at your buffs', what the class is now left with is nothing more than a AF bot. I am fine with taking away illy dps, but DON'T make the class into nothing more than a AF toon that provides buffs. Oh and while I am at it, why the hell can I not cast TC on myself? Any reason, is that suddenly going to propel me to the top of the parse, no its not so make it happen ffs. I played an illy on raids..... takes about max 2-3 seconds to rebuff someone that dies, not that hard work really imo. __________________ Golbezz wrote: If casual players actually put as much effort into learning their class as they do calling for content difficulty nerfs they might actually find that most group content is not anywhere close to being too difficult.

02-23-2010, 12:10 PM	#46
GuardianKing Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: West Coast Posts: 52	I Still play my necro and do very well on the parse listing.. I usually run about 8th on the parse and in a full raid that is not bad.. There is always someone that is not happy with their class. I solo like a monster and parse ok. If you are not happy with the class quit. there are a lot of chanters that love their class. We are not the OMG we need a chanter or we can not complete this raid type of class and we will never be. If you can not get into a raid group create your own.

02-23-2010, 12:31 PM	#47
dlove1 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 57	there were a lot of chanters that loved their class. fixed

02-23-2010, 12:46 PM	#48
Drulon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	Chanter is on the shelf.. dusting the wizard back off. Its pretty easy to tell who the folks are that play at the top end.. and who are casuals. Unfortunatly the raiders are like 8% of the population and will never be catered to.

02-23-2010, 01:23 PM	#49
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Drulon wrote: Its pretty easy to tell who the folks are that play at the top end.. and who are casuals. Unfortunatly the raiders are like 8% of the population and will never be catered to. I'd love to know where you get that number from. Near as I can tell 40-60% of the population at top tier are wearing guild tags that atleast raid 1/wk. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is even higher. But in regards to enchanters, we still want 4 of them on raids, nothing has changed. The only thing different is your pecking order on the dps parse, and honestly, that has NO BEARING on the class desirability for raiding. The only bearing it has is on your epean. __________________

02-23-2010, 01:39 PM	#50
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	[email protected] wrote: I'd love to know where you get that number from. Near as I can tell 40-60% of the population at top tier are wearing guild tags that atleast raid 1/wk. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is even higher. But in regards to enchanters, we still want 4 of them on raids, nothing has changed. The only thing different is your pecking order on the dps parse, and honestly, that has NO BEARING on the class desirability for raiding. The only bearing it has is on your epean. You're wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The thing that is changed is that it is no longer fun to play the class. Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone wants a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many. That's the problem. __________________

02-23-2010, 01:39 PM	#51
Spryt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	[email protected] wrote: [email protected] wrote: Geothe wrote: chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top; then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards. Complete garbage dude. < ranting removed > Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there. It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently. If some classes aren't supposed to outdamage the utility classes. why would they be sought for raids? We could grab our tanks ( 2 or 3) then our healers ( 6 to 7 ) and fill the rest with chanters and bards ( 14 - 16 ) ... play some round robin with some buffs and rule the world. Well, maybe you'd fit a hate transfer person or two in there... Some classes are designed to outdamage other classes. If Sorcerers and Predators did not provide comparably large amounts of DPS to a Raid they would have no reason to be in the Raid to begin with... The listing of tiers we saw was old and outdated, however it is generally easy to see that certain classes by design, should be putting out larger numbers then some other classes. Gear and Player Skill taken into account of course. If every class did similar DPS and had similar utility ( played and geared well ) then we might as well raid with 4 tanks and 20 healers! Yes some classes should be doing more dps then others to balance the utility vs dps. By the looks of SF AA SoE are spreading the utility a lot more then to the traditional bard/chanter buffers. Wizards get some kind of melee gift proc spell, I think conj get something similar. So the gap between the amount of utility a chanter brings to raids/groups compared to other mages is getting smaller, yet the amount of dps chanters do compared to other mages is getting a lot bigger. I don't think anyone is saying chanters should be T1 dps but why does the gap between them and other dps have to be so big? Bards have way more to offer in terms of group buffs (even their single target ones UT/BC are superior to the illu ones) compared to chanters yet they are now doing the same or more dps.

02-23-2010, 01:41 PM	#52
Atragon Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 155	Banditman wrote: [email protected] wrote: I'd love to know where you get that number from. Near as I can tell 40-60% of the population at top tier are wearing guild tags that atleast raid 1/wk. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is even higher. But in regards to enchanters, we still want 4 of them on raids, nothing has changed. The only thing different is your pecking order on the dps parse, and honestly, that has NO BEARING on the class desirability for raiding. The only bearing it has is on your epean. You're wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The thing that is changed is that it is no longer fun to play the class. Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone wants a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many. That's the problem. Same could be said for bards. And they don't even have dps to fall back on.

02-23-2010, 01:45 PM	#53
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Banditman wrote: Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone wants a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many. Every troub I know? They log in thinking, I'll immediatly be desired in a group. __________________

02-23-2010, 02:05 PM	#54
kanei_eun Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 32	Am I the only one who enjoys seeing everyone at full power in my group? Am I the only one who enjoys putting people into the fire/salting healers? Am I the only one who enjoys curing arcane off healers? Am I the only one who enjoys topping the power parse in raids( <3 Desolation)? I guess bring it on.

02-23-2010, 02:11 PM	#55
Spryt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	[email protected] wrote: Banditman wrote: Desireability isn't the problem. Everyone wants a chanter. The problem is that it's not fun to play, and no one actually wants to BE a chanter. How many people do you think log on saying: "Gosh, I'm looking forward to being third rate DPS and have all of the spells that are unique to me be completely ineffective." Yea, not too many. Every troub I know? They log in thinking, I'll immediatly be desired in a group. Some people are happy being desired for skills SoE gave their class. Others are would rather be desired for player skills. A lot of people see groups/raids/guilds looking for chanters and bards. So they refer a friend level one in a few days and start playing. They have the buffs so they are wanted on raids and nobody seams to care about dps or player skill. 2 Expansions later and they still have no idea how to play and no desire to improve as they will always get a raid spot as long as they keep those buffs running. Not my kind of fun. But yes maybe the toubs/chanters in your guild enjoy this kind of "gameplay".

02-23-2010, 02:30 PM	#56
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Spryt wrote: Some people are happy being desired for skills SoE gave their class. Others are would rather be desired for player skills. A lot of people see groups/raids/guilds looking for chanters and bards. So they refer a friend level one in a few days and start playing. They have the buffs so they are wanted on raids and nobody seams to care about dps or player skill. 2 Expansions later and they still have no idea how to play and no desire to improve as they will always get a raid spot as long as they keep those buffs running. Not my kind of fun. But yes maybe the toubs/chanters in your guild enjoy this kind of "gameplay". No everyone is expected to play their class to high degree of its potential. Its not really an issue if the troubs potential doesn't rival T2 classes, as the troub is still desperately wanted in the raid. The exact same is true of enchanters. The only outcry here is centered around individuals personal perception of their worth by their ranking in a dps parse. The concern here isn't about playing the class to the potential, which of course can still be done. You can still be the 'best' illusionist in game. You simply can't be the best and be a true T1/T2 dps class now. That change has no bearing on your class desirability or your own ability to meet the dps potential of the class. It only affects your ranking as compaired to other classes. If your playing the game to compete dps numbers against different classes, I'll argue your either playing the wrong game or the wrong class. The fact that the bard/ench dps potential isn't as high as T1/T2 dps classes isn't really a deal breaker here. It really just sounds like a lot of whining enchanters who are finally back in the dps tier the class was designed for. If anything, my only concerns are over dirges possibly still being a bit high. __________________

02-23-2010, 02:55 PM	#57
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	[email protected] wrote: The only outcry here is centered around individuals personal perception of their worth by their ranking in a dps parse. NO. You are missing it. Chanters can take DPS or leave it. They want to be "wanted" for their skill as a player. What's the difference between a terrible Troub and a good one? Not really all that much. That's why Troubs remain one of the least played classes in the game. What both Enchanters want is to see the delta between a "good" player and a "bad" player be high, and to have that delta make a noticeable difference in the game. Many options have been offered, none have even been acknowledged by the powers that be. Good luck finding chanters in SF. __________________

02-23-2010, 02:58 PM	#58
dlove1 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 57	"The fact that the bard/ench dps potential isn't as high as T1/T2 dps classes isn't really a deal breaker here. It really just sounds like a lot of whining enchanters who are finally back in the dps tier the class was designed for." I have to say that we were never out of the tier that we were designed for. even in TSO we were 5th and 6th in mage dps. summoners got very few if any raid spots in highend guilds. most people didn't get to see them outparse chanters. they did. my #1 issue with dps is the fact that they jacked us on the crit modifier. this takes us down to the bottom of the barrell. a spell that hits for 1000 damage will max crit for a chanter at 1300. it will max crit for everyone else at 1500. my hardest hitting spell in TSO (master strike) hit for a maximum of around 14500. wizards were dropping single target BoI for 120,000 and getting DA on top of that for 240,000 single spell hits. the fun of the class for me was taking a class that was 5th or 6th in mage dps potential and forcing it into 2nd or 3rd while still doing my other jobs. I loved having other people that played chanters or other mages send me tells "htf do you do that?" with the new changes, they have forced us to the bottom of the parse. even with all the nerfs and handicaps they have saddled us with, if some talented chanter finds a way to top a parse people will still scream that we are OP because a fabled/mastered chanter beat a treasured/adept sorc on a parse. doing 10k while every other mage class is over 20k = unrewarding. having the inq right behind me on the dps parse = unrewarding. atm my class has as many temp buffs as it has damage spells. these are the reasons I stopped playing my troub. I'm not looking to top every parse. I also don't wanna be the one-legged guy in a foot race. I know enchanters are still needed on raids. so are troubs. how many troubs do you see? my guild is always looking for troubs. most guilds are always looking for troubs. now, guilds will be looking for troubs and chanters.

02-23-2010, 02:59 PM	#59
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Banditman wrote: What's the difference between a terrible Troub and a good one? Not really all that much. About 6k dps and the ability to pay attention. __________________

02-23-2010, 03:04 PM	#60
Spryt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	[email protected] wrote: Spryt wrote: Some people are happy being desired for skills SoE gave their class. Others are would rather be desired for player skills. A lot of people see groups/raids/guilds looking for chanters and bards. So they refer a friend level one in a few days and start playing. They have the buffs so they are wanted on raids and nobody seams to care about dps or player skill. 2 Expansions later and they still have no idea how to play and no desire to improve as they will always get a raid spot as long as they keep those buffs running. Not my kind of fun. But yes maybe the toubs/chanters in your guild enjoy this kind of "gameplay". No everyone is expected to play their class to high degree of its potential. Its not really an issue if the troubs potential doesn't rival T2 classes, as the troub is still desperately wanted in the raid. The exact same is true of enchanters. The only outcry here is centered around individuals personal perception of their worth by their ranking in a dps parse. The concern here isn't about playing the class to the potential, which of course can still be done. You can still be the 'best' illusionist in game. You simply can't be the best and be a true T1/T2 dps class now. That change has no bearing on your class desirability or your own ability to meet the dps potential of the class. It only affects your ranking as compaired to other classes. If your playing the game to compete dps numbers against different classes, I'll argue your either playing the wrong game or the wrong class. The fact that the bard/ench dps potential isn't as high as T1/T2 dps classes isn't really a deal breaker here. It really just sounds like a lot of whining enchanters who are finally back in the dps tier the class was designed for. If anything, my only concerns are over dirges possibly still being a bit high. Everyone keeps coming with the same argument dps vs utility and how chanters shouldn't be top dps etc, etc. They are not top dps. They were not top dps in TSO, they were not top dps in RoK or any expansion before that. A lot of balancing has been done over the years to bring them more in line with other classes. But whatever they did in SF is just too much. The gap is now way too big. If chanters are ment to be doing bard dps then we should atleast have equally good buffs as bards. All illu buffs except haste a bard has an improved version of. And btw chanters are not bards, yes both have utility but nowhere near the same amount nor should they have. So stop comparing them. All other classes have seen improvements and progression even without new spells/gear. I still play my illu the same way I did in TSO and still get the same dps I had in TSO. The problem is I just grinded 10 more levels and some aa and even got some upgraded gear and I am still in the exact same place I was in 1 month ago. No noticeable improvements or progression whatsoever.