Dungeon Finder needs improvement

[thorn]

Hate the long wait just to see everyone quit out, you end up waiting for hours. Why cant it work like Battle ground making it a cross server group? Is that too tough?

[deadcrickets2]

Cross server is coming as well as other fixes.

[Felshades]

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Cross server is coming as well as other fixes.

It won't help.

It was junk at launch, and no one will use it even if they do fix it.

[SmokeJumper]

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

[Dekedar]

What are the daily rewards? I'm not going to bother logging in to find out what they've added to try and pursuade me to use a feature that's already failed on a server by server basis. Make it cross server and we might have a chance at getting some use out of it, I hope so at any rate.

[Luterin]

The reward is awesome! I got a stack of pretty non-tradeable arrows on my Inquisitor! *ponder*

Why couldnt they just award bonus shards if you complete dungeons via the dungeon finder, that way people might actually have an incentive to use it.

[TwistedFaith]

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. 

[MurFalad]

TwistedFaith wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. 

WoW's dungeon finder system always has offered rewards for using it, while I'm no fan of the cross server functionality and prefer players to be in charge of forming groups its a working system, actually a lot of WoW's systems have extra incentives tied to them to make them work.  I still prefer to form my own groups, for that reason I wish that we could grab people from the DF queue for our own dungeon groups with incentives attached to bringing worse geared/experienced players...

I've used the current one a few times, I'm not sure why so many groups disband before all of the group members have even had time to say yes.  It would work better and be less disruptive to players if people were not transported to the dungeon until everyone who had queued has accepted the group (people who turn it down now should get the debuff, people who accept shouldn't even if the group fails to form), although I guess that won't solve the key problem.

Which I guess is caused by people joining the queue and then turning down the dungeon due to it not being one they want, not sure how to fix this without making all dungeons drop the same quality loot and have the same difficulty. 

One incentive could be to have a good reward for using the dungeon finder (equivalent to a PQ chest) but to have a 1 hour debuff for turning down a df group that disqualifies people from the chest?

[Luterin]

TwistedFaith wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. 

If anything it's an indication that the players are rubbish, not the tool, because the tool works just fine. It's just sad that the players needs to be bribed to use it because they consider themselves better than most and don't want to sink to the level where they join pugs.

Had people been less elitist and more openminded things would have worked out alot better overall.

[bks6721]

I've had very little success with dungeon finder.  I'd say 80% of my formed groups disband before ever pulling a mob.  On the other hand, I've run Pools in groups that most people wouldn't even consider trying because it wasn't the ideal setup.  Some of my most fun groups ever have been non standard groups. 

Who here would try a TSO dungeon with 3 templars, no mercs?   3 of us in my guild like to try stuff like this for FUN.  Some people have lost sight of why they even play this game.

[flay_wind]

Luterin wrote:

TwistedFaith wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish.

If anything it's an indication that the players are rubbish, not the tool, because the tool works just fine. It's just sad that the players needs to be bribed to use it because they consider themselves better than most and don't want to sink to the level where they join pugs.

Had people been less elitist and more openminded things would have worked out alot better overall.

Oookay here's the situation. You're doing Fortress Spire a.k.a. Rime 3. DF tool makes group of undergeared monk, warlock, wizard and let's say defiler, mystic and templar. How far will you make it with this group?

[deadcrickets2]

I've had zero problems getting groups in seconds (on Freeport which is now the home of all of mine) and holding groups on mine.  It seems like most of the complaints are from those trying to use it for DoV.   I can almost guess why it's occuring.  That is not to say there aren't some major bugs in Dungeon Finder; I've sent in bug reports on several.  

I question why people are attempting to use Dungeon Finder for DoV as it is.  A lot of the dungeons there have gear requirements and I'm fairly certain some are ditching out either due to someone not having the right gear in the group or they've seen some less than stellar performance from a group member or four.   I would stick to guild members for DoV.

[bks6721]

flay_wind wrote:

Luterin wrote:

TwistedFaith wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish.

If anything it's an indication that the players are rubbish, not the tool, because the tool works just fine. It's just sad that the players needs to be bribed to use it because they consider themselves better than most and don't want to sink to the level where they join pugs.

Had people been less elitist and more openminded things would have worked out alot better overall.

Oookay here's the situation. You're doing Fortress Spire a.k.a. Rime 3. DF tool makes group of undergeared monk, warlock, wizard and let's say defiler, mystic and templar. How far will you make it with this group?

imho, thats a problem with the dungeon, not the dungeon finder.   In ANY other expansion you'd be able to kill with a group like that.  Sure, it won't be trouble free but that setup should be able to run a heroic instance.

[Luterin]

flay_wind wrote:

Oookay here's the situation. You're doing Fortress Spire a.k.a. Rime 3. DF tool makes group of undergeared monk, warlock, wizard and let's say defiler, mystic and templar. How far will you make it with this group?

The dungeon finder has minimum gear requirements on dungeons that needs it, and its extremely rare, if it even happends, that it puts together a group that can't do the content. Most people are just spoiled thou and want easymode runs with overgeared people. Or are they just very bad players so they cant play intended for when its intended and need to overgear it?

[Gaealiege]

No, it's incredibly OFTEN that the dungeon finder forms a completely fail-based group.  I used it for an entire week so that I could say "Yes I gave this a try."

In that entire week 90% of the groups I joined (all in DoV) contained at least one player who either didn't have items in some slots or was wearing the best level 70 treasured you ever saw in his slots.

It's not elitist to want to finish a zone in reasonable amount of time.  Rezzing the imbecile in full treasured 30 times and wasting 3 bots on him, just to clear a trivial zone in 3 hours.  I'll pass, but thanks for the offer.

[Supremeninja]

I can say the reward is epic! I finally got a chest piece so now i dont have to do ring war anymore

[Luterin]

[email protected] wrote:

No, it's incredibly OFTEN that the dungeon finder forms a completely fail-based group.  I used it for an entire week so that I could say "Yes I gave this a try."

In that entire week 90% of the groups I joined (all in DoV) contained at least one player who either didn't have items in some slots or was wearing the best level 70 treasured you ever saw in his slots.

It's not elitist to want to finish a zone in reasonable amount of time.  Rezzing the imbecile in full treasured 30 times and wasting 3 bots on him, just to clear a trivial zone in 3 hours.  I'll pass, but thanks for the offer.

And my dungeon finder groups in DoV works out just fine atleast 90%+ of the time. So either its a server thing, or perhaps it's a you thing? Those the only 2 common factors it seems...

[Mohee]

20-89 groups are more rare because most people dont want to group between those levels. Mainly because you level 3-5x faster solo questing then dungeon crawling. Not to mention the lvl 20-89 dungeons have absolute useless junk for drops. You're better of questing for treasured gear.

[Neiloch]

The problem I run into the most is that people are waiting in queue for so long that 90% of the time when a group is finally put together one of the members has went AFK thus we have 4-5 people in the zone waiting on a key member like a tank or healer.

If it's not that and the group isn't AFK in DF, its a gear problem. Gear/stat requirements need to be put in place for EVERY dungeon, or at the very least the level 90 ones. I'm not saying they should be high but when I get in a group with MANY undergeared players in one of the harder 'no gear requirement' dungeons it is QUITE frustrating. When my ranger tanks better than the guardian because they are wearing treasured/legendary and not even half adorned, it makes me just want to drop. But then I'M the jerk for leaving, not the person who is queueing up for dungeons they are much too undergeared for.

Just base it on their main stat. IE. fighters need to have x amount of strength for y dungeon. This would work pretty well since better equipment tends to have higher class stat and stamina in most cases. Works well in Rift although their itemization might be handled better.

[bohohoboprobono]

TwistedFaith wrote:

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. 

WoW's dungeon finder works perfectly and they've offered special rewards (for picking random) since its inception.

EQ2's dungeon finder will work when it's cross-server, ignores mercenaries, and absolutely positively will not start til there's a full group and everyone has confirmed they're ready... in other words, like WoW's.

As for dealing with bads?  That's the risk of every group, especially in DF.  

Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:

-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.

-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).

-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.

-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.

-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.

-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.

-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.

-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.

The DF, as an idea, is set up to fail.  However, it's been proven to be an effective system in other games.  Unconfident players rise to the challenge in a "safe" environment.  The myth of the "perfect group" gets shattered (hint:  you really really really really don't need a Bard and Enchanter for everything, folks).  Ragtag groups are some of the most fun -- and the best, most skillful groups -- I've ever been in.  When you're short a force multiplier like a Bard, people have to dig deeper into their bag of tricks to make mindless, brute-forcible fights into something more cerebral.

[Moldylocks]

bohohoboprobono wrote:

TwistedFaith wrote:

The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. 

WoW's dungeon finder works perfectly and they've offered special rewards (for picking random) since its inception.

EQ2's dungeon finder will work when it's cross-server, ignores mercenaries, and absolutely positively will not start til there's a full group and everyone has confirmed they're ready... in other words, like WoW's.

As for dealing with bads?  That's the risk of every group, especially in DF.  

Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:

-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.

-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).

-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.

-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.

-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.

-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.

-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.

-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.

The DF, as an idea, is set up to fail.  However, it's been proven to be an effective system in other games.  Unconfident players rise to the challenge in a "safe" environment.  The myth of the "perfect group" gets shattered (hint:  you really really really really don't need a Bard and Enchanter for everything, folks).  Ragtag groups are some of the most fun -- and the best, most skillful groups -- I've ever been in.  When you're short a force multiplier like a Bard, people have to dig deeper into their bag of tricks to make mindless, brute-forcible fights into something more cerebral.

That is a horribly negative perspective.  Luckily its just your subjective understanding based on your personal bias.

The tool itself is flawed, yes, and many people have given up using it in its current incarnation.  As for the "type" of person who uses it?  Before the DF was available, everyone was using the usual methods that have always been used, so unless the DF magically spawned this "type" of player you go on about, its the same pool of players as before. 

[Glenolas]

[email protected] wrote:

What are the daily rewards?

We ran Iceshard Keep 4 times since the announcement of  "sweet" rewards (an SJ term) specifically to check them out.  We chose IK because it's above the median.   9 zones easier, 6 harder.     We had farmed it dry and hadn't been there in a while.

All 6 got a drop after 20 mins in the zone,  totaling 24 drops during the test period.  

1.  Not a single item was good enough to replace any item any of the 6 were wearing, nor to pass to any alt.   They were not even a decent substitute, and most were an outright hit to the toon's stats.   Example: a "Fabled" tower shield dropped with 8% crit chance.   The two shieldbearers in the group had legendary shields with 35% and 39% crit chance each.   As important as crit chance is in game,  have a shield itemized with 8% is outright pitiful.

The loot is labeled "Fabled" but the Pot/CB stats look to be just below the drops in the lowest DOV dungeon (ToFS: Shadowed Corridors).    If you've run any DoV dungeon, or the PQ's you'll have better already.

2.  They are not tuned to the recipient toon.   A warlock got a tower shield.  A leather healer got some plate shoulders.

3.  Fabled junk can be useful as transmuter fodder, except these are not transmutable.

4.  They wind up being vendor trash, selling for slightly over a plat.

On the 3rd day of the runs,  we had a minor emergency,  calling for 2 peeps to go afk for a short time.  We had already zoned in, and gotten the shard quest, so waited for them.   Our 20 minutes elapsed during that time, and we got the reward without having killed anything.   I don't know if this is a bug, or working as expected.   A plat every 20 minutes is insignificant compared to actually farming the zones,  so I'm guessing it's intended.   Basically it's all the reward you're going to get for putting up with the DF.

Having watched SJ talking the new bonus loot up in several threads over the weekend, and having reset our 24 hour clock, we thought to run a Drunder zone to see if the loot table improved.    No joy.   We formed up, queued up,  and never got pulled in.  30 minute waits with a fully assembled group, and no joy.    We came back to the experiment 5 hours later, tried again, with the same result.    Got the message we were queued,  but never got pulled in.

I'll surmise the loot table is common to all the dungeons.   Just random items, none of which will be useful to the average toon.     The were certainly not considered very good by any of those who got them.   This looks like more hype than substance.

[Luterin]

Glenolas wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

What are the daily rewards?

We ran Iceshard Keep 4 times since the announcement of  "sweet" rewards (an SJ term) specifically to check them out.  We chose IK because it's above the median.   9 zones easier, 6 harder.     We had farmed it dry and hadn't been there in a while.

All 6 got a drop after 20 mins in the zone,  totaling 24 drops during the test period.  

1.  Not a single item was good enough to replace any item any of the 6 were wearing, nor to pass to any alt.   They were not even a decent substitute, and most were an outright hit to the toon's stats.   Example: a "Fabled" tower shield dropped with 8% crit chance.   The two shieldbearers in the group had legendary shields with 35% and 39% crit chance each.   As important as crit chance is in game,  have a shield itemized with 8% is outright pitiful.

The loot is labeled "Fabled" but the Pot/CB stats look to be just below the drops in the lowest DOV dungeon (ToFS: Shadowed Corridors).    If you've run any DoV dungeon, or the PQ's you'll have better already.

2.  They are not tuned to the recipient toon.   A warlock got a tower shield.  A leather healer got some plate shoulders.

3.  Fabled junk can be useful as transmuter fodder, except these are not transmutable.

4.  They wind up being vendor trash, selling for slightly over a plat.

On the 3rd day of the runs,  we had a minor emergency,  calling for 2 peeps to go afk for a short time.  We had already zoned in, and gotten the shard quest, so waited for them.   Our 20 minutes elapsed during that time, and we got the reward without having killed anything.   I don't know if this is a bug, or working as expected.   A plat every 20 minutes is insignificant compared to actually farming the zones,  so I'm guessing it's intended.   Basically it's all the reward you're going to get for putting up with the DF.

Having watched SJ talking the new bonus loot up in several threads over the weekend, and having reset our 24 hour clock, we thought to run a Drunder zone to see if the loot table improved.    No joy.   We formed up, queued up,  and never got pulled in.  30 minute waits with a fully assembled group, and no joy.    We came back to the experiment 5 hours later, tried again, with the same result.    Got the message we were queued,  but never got pulled in.

I'll surmise the loot table is common to all the dungeons.   Just random items, none of which will be useful to the average toon.     The were certainly not considered very good by any of those who got them.   This looks like more hype than substance.

Yeah, they should just add shards instead of this crap as I stated in an earlier post, since most people running the instances are interested in shards, and they can also give them to their alts if they want.

I know there isn't shards systems all the way to the bottom levels, so some other sollution should perhaps be made there. Either way it's the top level instances that is the important thing due to the number of people running them compared to people running levelling dungeons...

[SiegaPlays]

Moldylocks wrote:

bohohoboprobono wrote:

Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:

-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.

-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).

-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.

-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.

-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.

-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.

-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.

-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.

The tool itself is flawed, yes, and many people have given up using it in its current incarnation.  As for the "type" of person who uses it?  Before the DF was available, everyone was using the usual methods that have always been used, so unless the DF magically spawned this "type" of player you go on about, its the same pool of players as before. 

I only ever group with my guildies and people I know from elsewhere. Since we - my guild - are less "organized" now with SWTOR out, I am contemplating using the dungeon finder. The thing is, without the guildies or the dungeon finder, I would not be in the market for a group. Period. Extra period. I do not pug, I do not spend hours spamming some channel and I do not group with strangers, I have to pick up at the nearest sleazy corner. Period.

So, not everyone was using the methods that have always been used for groups. 

If I have to choose between solo and a dungeon finder group, I will consider dungeon finder.

If I have to choose between soloing and using lfg spamming, I'd gladly solo, craft or read the forums before I would consider going lfg in a channel.

What I am saying is that DF indeed has a chance of spawning a new type of player from the same pool of players as before. The type who did not use lfg in channels and thus rarely got around to enjoy grouping. Call it shyness, anti-social or lack of assertiveness, but there are people out there of those "types" listed and prolly more than just those listed.

[Moldylocks]

SiegaPlays wrote:

Moldylocks wrote:

bohohoboprobono wrote:

Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:

-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.

-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).

-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.

-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.

-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.

-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.

-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.

-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.

The tool itself is flawed, yes, and many people have given up using it in its current incarnation.  As for the "type" of person who uses it?  Before the DF was available, everyone was using the usual methods that have always been used, so unless the DF magically spawned this "type" of player you go on about, its the same pool of players as before. 

I only ever group with my guildies and people I know from elsewhere. Since we - my guild - are less "organized" now with SWTOR out, I am contemplating using the dungeon finder. The thing is, without the guildies or the dungeon finder, I would not be in the market for a group. Period. Extra period. I do not pug, I do not spend hours spamming some channel and I do not group with strangers, I have to pick up at the nearest sleazy corner. Period.

So, not everyone was using the methods that have always been used for groups. 

If I have to choose between solo and a dungeon finder group, I will consider dungeon finder.

If I have to choose between soloing and using lfg spamming, I'd gladly solo, craft or read the forums before I would consider going lfg in a channel.

What I am saying is that DF indeed has a chance of spawning a new type of player from the same pool of players as before. The type who did not use lfg in channels and thus rarely got around to enjoy grouping. Call it shyness, anti-social or lack of assertiveness, but there are people out there of those "types" listed and prolly more than just those listed.

Before DF, the usual methods of finding groups included guild groups, as well as lfg channels, 1-9, etc.  You are still trying to smear the DF users with a tainted brush.  You are basing your assertions on personal opinion and that is all, that is, unless you've done some research on at least 100 people that includes a full personality profile.  That might interest me.  Your invented sterotype to defend your own bias, not so interesting.

That said, I am done with you and your negative opinion and I'm not going to turn this into a back and forth arguement.

[SiegaPlays]

Moldylocks wrote:

Before DF, the usual methods of finding groups included guild groups, as well as lfg channels, 1-9, etc.  You are still trying to smear the DF users with a tainted brush.  You are basing your assertions on personal opinion and that is all, that is, unless you've done some research on at least 100 people that includes a full personality profile.  That might interest me.  Your invented sterotype to defend your own bias, not so interesting.

That said, I am done with you and your negative opinion and I'm not going to turn this into a back and forth arguement.

You never said such a thing. I described how I feel about lfg, not how anyone else feels about it. I did so in response to your assumption that only those who used to use lfg in chats are the pool that also do dungeon finder.

[CoLD MeTaL]

The problem isn't Dungeon Finder, the problem is the game.

6 people who want ' to explore and adventure' can't do these zones.  You need to be a min/maxer with ACT running and know your parse and until recently (ie when it no longer mattered) there was the crit mit check and then follow the scripts like mini raids.  Cross Server isn't going to change a flippin thing.

That is why people do not run zones unless it is with guildees.  Because they want their token out of the hamster lever in 10 minutes.

[Gaealiege]

I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.

There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.

[CoLD MeTaL]

[email protected] wrote:

I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.

There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.

So . . . . I need the gear from the zones to run the zones.  Or perhaps you are saying i need the raid gear from above the zones to run the zones.

This post (ie this player mentality) is exactly what is wrong with DF.

[Gaealiege]

SF will gear you out.  Your mentaliy is the improper one.  What happened to working your way through prior content to be able to beat newer content?

People in even a single piece of treasured shouldn't be allowed in DF DoV zones, ever.