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Old 05-03-2012, 03:04 PM   #1
Zivgar

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I have been thinking about this for a while now and I think what items that can be transmuted needs to be changed.

I don't understand why handcrafted items can't be transmuted. Is it really that big of a deal to have these items transmutable?  For handcrafted items I would suggest that you can only get fragments from them.  If you changed this then it would be much easier to raise your skill from 5 to 25 which I find is one of the more annoying lvl range to increase. Just the other day I was killing a bunch of newbie area mobs just to get items to transmute and it took forever not mention taking away mobs from the actually newbies.

The problem is that when items dropped it was lvl 10 items and I couldn't transmute them yet.  I had to keep farming until I got adapt books. I don't want to buy these items and I have 8 90+ tradeskillers, why can't I make handcrafted in order to get transmuting up?  As it stands handcrafted is rarely used, at least what I see.

Now if people are worried about making tons of hand crafted to get mana's well think about this . . .

For rounding sake lets say it take 1 minute to make an item, actually lets go in the other direction and say it takes 30 seconds. 

10 fragments to make a void = 5 minutes

10 voids to make an infusion = 50 minutes

10 infusions to make a mana = 500 minutes ~ 8 hours 20 minutes

So it takes roughly 8 to 9 hours to make 1 mana if you wanted to make handcrafted items.  

I couldn't imgaine anyone wanting to do that, but what it would help with is early transmuting skill ups and help crafters by making a market for handcrafted items (ok it really wouldn't help that much because the cost to make the item would not be worth the selling price).  Plus when I was leveling up my transmuting I would go to Stormhold and kill the whole zone and this takes away from people who want to level up in these zones.  Its not a big deal, but some one going into a zone with raid gear killing all names kinda sucks for the people at that actually level range.  Would making handcrafted items fix this? Probabely not, but it would give another option which I think more choices always makes a game better.

A 2nd agruement against this would be that it would kill the market prices for these adorning materials.  Of course it would lower the price, but I feel only on the fragment market, nothing on the void market, nothing on the infusion and mana market. I have proof taken straight from the game. (These prices are based from AB server one of the most populated). For this purpose I will take the highest tier since that is where it would really change the price market.

Underfoot Fragements cheapest on AB ~ 38gp

Making a handcrafted item T9: Fuel costs 1gp 56sp x5 = 7gp 80sp cost to make 1 fragment (Save ~30gp)

(This would lower the cost of fragments if some one wanted to make these. Again to make 1000 would roughly take 8 hours without potions)

As someone who makes there own adornments I always run out of fragments and I never have enough. I rarely get adept books to mute them, there is no long teasured items that drop in that tier unless I want to farm SF. What I do is convert my voids into fragments. As of right now if this came into the game, I would still convert my voids into fragments and not make HC items to mute into fragments that seems silly to me.  But my point is if someone wanted to do that now they can. I am all about choices.

Void Powder cheapest on AB ~ 44gp

Making HC item T9: 7gp 80sp x 10 = 78gp to make 10 fragments to convert to 1 Void Powder. ( Lose ~38gp )

Allready we see that it would cost roughly 34 more gp to make 1 void powder than it is allready in the game.  Well I just don't see a lot of people spending the time to make these items just to sell. There is no profit in it. If you are some one who thinks this would drop the market then the profit margin would get even worse making less sense then to do this as a money maker.

Infusion of the Void cheapest on AB ~ 3pp

Making HC item T9 = 78gp x 10 = 7pp 80gp to convert to 1 Infusion of the Void ( Lose 4pp 80gp )

Distilled Mana cheapest on AB ~ 24pp

Making HC item T9 = 7pp 80gp x 10 = 78pp to convert to 1 Distilled Mana ( Lose 54pp )

As you can see from the examples above this would only lower the market price on fragements which is way out of line because the supply is so low. This will help the supply, but I still feel players will mostly get the fragments from converting voids. Transmute one legendary item get a void then get 7 fragments or craft 7 items to get the same result.  All this does is just give us players more choices.

So what do other people think about this? I would really like to see this put into the game. I welcome all feedback for or against as long as you explain your points.

I just wanted to add this part as I was re-reading my post I want to clearly define my intent: I added this part on 5/4

1) Give players another option to level up transmuting ( I feel the biggest benefit will be low level transmuting)

2) Balance the fragment market. You need 6 fragments to make each adornment tier (lesser, greater, superior). I feel these are the common item in the adornment materials, these should have the largest supply and be the cheapest component. As it stand it is almost the same price of voids and sometimes cost more. Is my idea the solution? I would say no, but I do feel that it can help. Some people think this idea would flood the market, so if they are right then it would lower the price. But what would the price be? I would say at least around 7gp 80sp (cost of T8 fuel x5) But the cost of a fragment if you down converted from a 30gp Void Powder would be 5gp 28sp that is cheaper than a HC item transmuted into a fragment, so my idea would still not be the best option, just another choice. The best option would be one that is allready in the game.

3)Give crafters the ability to have a viable means to level up transmuting and enter the fragment market. Adorning is crafting, so why is it only adventurers can get these items to make the components? All I am proposing is to give something back to crafters. Allow them equal oppertunity to gain these adorning materials just as an adventurer can.

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:24 PM   #2
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Flag all tier 1 recipes as mastercrafterd. There. Problem solved.

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:40 PM   #3
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Havest a few rares and make MC gear to transmute. Low level rares are pretty cheap if you don't want to harvest.

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Old 05-03-2012, 04:17 PM   #4
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Mermut wrote:

Havest a few rares and make MC gear to transmute. Low level rares are pretty cheap if you don't want to harvest.

 Valid point I could do that, but why not just have it any handcrafted gear shouldn't be too hard to switch that. Obviously I don't mean items that you can make more than 1 of per craft such as ammo.  But that is a choice, I just want more. I have a harvest box full of T1 common, I see no reason that I can't make a couple items to help me gains those last few points. Or if I have crafted gear that is attuned to be able to transmute it instead of vendor fonder. I just want the option.

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Old 05-03-2012, 04:37 PM   #5
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Zivgar wrote:

Mermut wrote:

Havest a few rares and make MC gear to transmute. Low level rares are pretty cheap if you don't want to harvest.

 Valid point I could do that, but why not just have it any handcrafted gear shouldn't be too hard to switch that. Obviously I don't mean items that you can make more than 1 of per craft such as ammo.  But that is a choice, I just want more. I have a harvest box full of T1 common, I see no reason that I can't make a couple items to help me gains those last few points. Or if I have crafted gear that is attuned to be able to transmute it instead of vendor fonder. I just want the option.

Zivgar wrote:

..it would be much easier to raise your skill from 5 to 25 which I find is one of the more annoying lvl range to increase.

The problem is that when items dropped it was lvl 10 items and I couldn't transmute them yet. ... why can't I make handcrafted in order to get transmuting up?  

Why then the big long exposition on anything other than tier 1? You are suggesting broad changes to rectify what you acknowledge is a very limited problem.

I offered a solution that would require a small tweak and make things easier.

Mermut offered a "solution" that actually already exists for your problem.

You say you have 90 crafters...spend a few plat and buy enough low level rares to make Mastercrafted items that you can mute. It isn't that expenisive...and it does not take any longer to make than the handcrafted you propose.

Yet, you have jumped on neither of these as solution to your problem? Why the hesitancy to embrace either? Are you so cash poor that you cant swing a few plat, or do you have some hidden agenda.

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Old 05-03-2012, 08:50 PM   #6
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Ok Red I will post my reason to why I don't like your idea and that the crafting community wouldn't either.

So you suggest to make all T1 items with the Mastercrafted Tag even though the same item for the same slot would have greater and lesser stats.  Now that is your idea, how I understand it.  You said that would be a small fix, so why not do the same thing but leave the T1 HC with the same tag of Handcrafted. It would then be the same small fix that you stated. This of course is my idea, but mine would effect all Tiers. This is where we disagree, nothing wrong with that.

Now again you say this is a small fix, but I have done some coding in my day and if you spent the time to create that code then it should be fairly easy to make that change to all the same items in different tiers. Am I wrong here?  I would guess that we do not code for SoE (I know I don't), so we really have no clue to how hard this change would be, but it seems simple to me just flag all HC that only makes 1 per combine to be able to be transmuted.  

So you state that my idea would be a broad change, and your idea would be a small fix (though our ideas are very simular you just want to keep it for T1). Seems to me that a small fix in one Tier would be a small fix in all Tiers. Do you disagree with my statement? 

So I am curious to why this idea is so bad to you that you have to resort to insulting me? Saying I have a hidden agenda? Saying that I am poor in game? Find flaws in my logic, agrue with the concepts of my ideas, give counter points.  If you want to agrue just for the sake of agrueing then that is fine, but did not try and tear me down to strengthen your points. I have not done that to you, nor will I do that to anyone.  I will look at what you said and if I disagree I will counter your points, as you should do with me (which you have done)

All I want is the choice to either farm items, buy the items or rares, or to use the common harvests just sitting in my Guild Harvest Box to make a couple items to increase my Transmuting skill.

All I see here is a chance to make this game better by giving us crafters more options, to perhaps put a slight value back into handcrafted gear. If you don't want to do it than pick one of the other 3 choices I stated above. I guess I don't see why this is such a horrible idea for such a small fix.  With Skyshrine giving out gear with 2 white adorns slots making more ways to get adornment materials just doesn't seem that bad of an idea.

So please give me reasons why this is a bad idea, why this my ruin some part of the game, but I also agree that not having this idea won't break the game, I just see it as a way to make it better.  Agree with me state your reasons why, disagree with I also want you to state your reasons why and let us have a good debate.

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Old 05-03-2012, 09:46 PM   #7
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Zivgar wrote:

Seems to me that a small fix in one Tier would be a small fix in all Tiers. Do you disagree with my statement? 

Yes, I do.

Its an utterly huge change, and will result in the only way anyone ever levels transmuting is with someone levelling a tradeskiller next to them.

Go buy the low level rares, or chronomentor down to 5 and run a new starter zone.

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Old 05-03-2012, 10:00 PM   #8
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Making the first 5 levels of transmuting more resonable for new transmuters (

Giving people the ability to crank out top tier transmuting components for free:  *Not* a minor thing...

Suddenly you're sanctioning mass producing of transmuting components, including new ones (such as when T10 transmuting is launched) without leaving the guild hall...

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Old 05-03-2012, 10:22 PM   #9
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Run through Timorous Deep questing and you'll find plenty of low level goodies to transmute.

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Old 05-04-2012, 12:26 AM   #10
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I'll agree to the specific point of making the first tier of transmuting easier - it can be difficult to get enough transmutable items to level out of that zone.

But there are already solutions to that, as well.  T1 rares are not that rare at all.  Both factions have 2 cities with newbie areas to quest and grind for transmuteables.  And if a lvl 90 crafter is starting to transmute (since the OP mentions having several), there are quest rewards with +25 to transmuting skill, which automatically put them above the difficulty factor the OP originally states.

So the stated issue is not really an issue, and the proposed solution affects far more than the original stated issue.  I have to agree with those who say the proposed solution is neither necessary nor helpful.

And Zivgar, while you may not agree with Red's ideas, he is as much a part of the crafting community as you are.  No one here speaks for the entire crafting community, we just state our view as part of it.  And so far the segment of the crafting community interested enough to reply is not in line with your statement of what we would and wouldn't like.  That may change as time goes by, but I suggest not making statements on behalf of all of us.

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Old 05-04-2012, 12:46 AM   #11
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before all items had to be made to pristine I used to make t1 items to the first bar and mute them for skill ups. Now for me it was no longer worth it when i had to craft the item to completetion although with a potion of progress and TS aa's now it might be. Look there are 2 ways to level transmuting slow and cheap or fast and expensive if you don't want to spend the coin for items to mute from the broker you need to take the time. harvester toon with bountiful harvest gear and aa's pop a pot of bountiful harvests and you should be able to pull 30-40 t1 rares an hour.Another hour to make 40 items and mute them and you'll get prolly 20 skill ups. The good news is you only need to do this once it isn't worth the effort to do on every toon just so you can mute their no trade items especially since adornments outside of t9 are not needed. BTW expert spells mute as legendary gear ie infusions and powders especially useful for t1 as each adornment returns a powder allowing you to get 2 combines.

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Old 05-04-2012, 01:00 AM   #12
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Tollymore wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

Seems to me that a small fix in one Tier would be a small fix in all Tiers. Do you disagree with my statement? 

Yes, I do.

Its an utterly huge change, and will result in the only way anyone ever levels transmuting is with someone levelling a tradeskiller next to them.

Go buy the low level rares, or chronomentor down to 5 and run a new starter zone.

Tollymore I have seen you on AB selling weapons and I think it is great how you go about doing it.  If you could answer me the best way to level up tradeskilling?  I think all crafters would agree that it is via Rush Orders. The TS xp that you gain is huge, way more than just making single crafting items.  I am pretty sure that people will still level up using rush orders over what you suggested.  But you do have a very good point, but why is the only way to level up transmuting by farming the items or buying the items that other people have farmed? Why not make it that a crafter can level up transmuting? Why is that so bad? Again with HC items I only want fragments to come from them, nothing higher. No voids, no infusions, just fragments.

Now why do people level up transmuting skill? I see two reason. The first so they can transmute items, so they can make adornments (Level up adorning). 2nd transmute items so they can sell them (or sell the adorns), and I bet a little bit of both.  Now the crafter has a chance to do that and the market will dictate the prices, but I can't stress this point enough, HC items would only be transmuted into fragments of that tier. So crafters would only be able to get fragments.

It takes 1 mana, 2 infusions, 3 voids, and 6 fragments to make 1 superior adorn, a crafter would have to make 1236 items to make one superior adorn. If someone wanted to do that, they pay money to play this game then why not? Greater adorn 1 infusion, 2 voids, and 6 fragments that is 126 crafted items. Lesser adorn 1 void 6 fragments 16 crafted items. Why does a crafter have to rely on adventurers to get adornment materials?

If you are a silver member I heard you can't wear MC items, now when they get an upgrade of a HC piece they can transmute it instead of making it vendor fodder. I don't see how this is a bad thing. I don't see if a paying player wants to level transmuting and a tradeskill together is a bad thing. I will still level my last tradeskiller via Rush Orders and I will level that players transmuting via loot drops and crafting items, but at least with my idea that player has more choices, then just farming items or buying them on the broker. That is my point more options this will never stop maing Rush Orders the best way to level up a Tradeskiller.

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Old 05-04-2012, 01:20 AM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:

Making the first 5 levels of transmuting more resonable for new transmuters (

I like this idea I would have no problem with that, of course I like my idea (I have put some thought into this)

Giving people the ability to crank out top tier transmuting components for free:  *Not* a minor thing...

In my OP I put into it numbers from the game. To make a lvl 80 item one fuel cost 1gp 56sp (not free)

It takes 5 fuel to make 1 items 5x 1gp 56sp = 7gp 80sp (not free) This will give you 1 fragment

When I check the AB server this morning Underfoot fragments cost 40gp and Void Powders cost 30gp

To make 1 void powder from HC crafting items would cost 7gp 80sp x 10 = 78gp which cost 48gp more than what you could buy the void powder on the broker (again not free)

From my post with Tollymore it would take 1236 crafted items to make 1 superior adorn 7gp 80sp x 1236 = 96pp 41gp (not free) not to mention the time to make all that stuff

I guess I don't see your agruement that it would be free.

I will agree with you that it will give the ability to crank out fragments which the supply for is so low that the cost is even more than void powders. How is bringing down that price a bad thing? Give me some reason, if it is logical I will agree with you just as I agreed that people will be able to crank out fragments.

Suddenly you're sanctioning mass producing of transmuting components, including new ones (such as when T10 transmuting is launched) without leaving the guild hall...

Well if this new content is any indication when T10 materials come out the only items that will give you fragments are adept books since no longer teasured item drop. This now gives another source to get fragments (I think some legenary items may give framents and voids) As a crafter if another crafter wants to do this I don't see anything wrong with that why should fragments cost more than the higher void item doesn't seem to make sense to me.

My comments in Red

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Old 05-04-2012, 02:02 AM   #14
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Lodrelhai wrote:

I'll agree to the specific point of making the first tier of transmuting easier - it can be difficult to get enough transmutable items to level out of that zone.

But there are already solutions to that, as well.  T1 rares are not that rare at all.  Both factions have 2 cities with newbie areas to quest and grind for transmuteables.  And if a lvl 90 crafter is starting to transmute (since the OP mentions having several), there are quest rewards with +25 to transmuting skill, which automatically put them above the difficulty factor the OP originally states.

So the stated issue is not really an issue, and the proposed solution affects far more than the original stated issue.  I have to agree with those who say the proposed solution is neither necessary nor helpful.

And Zivgar, while you may not agree with Red's ideas, he is as much a part of the crafting community as you are.  No one here speaks for the entire crafting community, we just state our view as part of it.  And so far the segment of the crafting community interested enough to reply is not in line with your statement of what we would and wouldn't like.  That may change as time goes by, but I suggest not making statements on behalf of all of us.

Lodrelhai you are right, I do not speak for the crafting community nor should I say that I do nor say what they would think.

With that said what do you think of Red's idea of making all HC items tagged as MC in order to transmute them?  I said that I agree with his idea, but instead of changing the Tag to say MC keep it as HC and make it transmutable in the end it would just be my idea. Where Red and I differ is he wants to stop it at Tier 1, I want it for all the Tiers. In fact I would be more than happy to do his idea.  That would be one step closer to what I am striving for here. 

You bring up a great point with the crafting items. Sadly I only know of one which is the unicorn mount.  I could farm tokens again it is a great mount. But I am writing this post giving out this idea as another option to raising the transmuting skill. As I made this suggestion in the crafting channel I looked more into it and saw how much out of whack the prices of fragments are. 40gp for a fragment 30gp to 50gp for a void when you can convert it into 7 fragments (roughly 4gp to 7gp per fragment) It would cost 7gp and 80sp to make 1 crafted item to transmute, so still it would be cheaper to just buy a void and convert it. So introducing this really wouldn't change much.

Again you are right when you say is this necessary, nope people have given many was to get up the transmuting skill. Is it helpful? I think it is bring the cost down of fragment by increasing the supply seems like a helpful thing to me. Being able to make a couple of items to try and get a couple more points in transmuting so I can mute that lvl 30 item, seem kinda helpful to me. Is there other ways to do it? Of course! Would it cost more than the fuel for the HC item? most likely.

I guess I look at it as did changing crafting a new item give more xp and increasing Rush Order Xp necessary? Nope, but it did help some classes. Did giving potions necessary to help speed up crafting? Nope, but it was nice to get. Is this idea gonna break the game? I don't think so, but I do think it will help some people level adorning, sell some HC and level transmuting. I think that is a good thing.

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Old 05-04-2012, 03:04 AM   #15
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IF you made handcrafted transmutable...the bot running community would script the whole process of crafting , transmuting and re-combining  and the broker would be flooded with manas.

All those hours don't count as a deterent when you don't need to actually be at the PC to do it.

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Old 05-04-2012, 01:47 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

IF you made handcrafted transmutable...the bot running community would script the whole process of crafting , transmuting and re-combining  and the broker would be flooded with manas.

All those hours don't count as a deterent when you don't need to actually be at the PC to do it.

That is a terriffic point Wullailduo, something that should be thought of if this idea was to be implemented.

Again I will refer to you my point about prices which I took the time to look up. These are actually prices on the AB server. Prices that I did not make up.  

With any market prices change but it is safe to say that the current price of distilled manas is roughly 20pp to 40pp. Would you disagree with that?

I have posted the cost to make 1 lvl 80 item. 1gp 56sp for 1 piece of fuel. 1 HC items takes 5 fuel to make.

1gp 56sp x 5 = 7gp 80sp

To make 1 mana you need 1000 fragments

7gp 80sp x 1000 = 78pp

That is more than 2x the cost of just buying the mana that is currently on the broker.  If you did a bot'ing program for 24 hours you would get 3 manas at the cost of 234pp.

If you take the average cost of a Distilled Mana of 30pp you could buy 7 Distilled Manas from the broker.

Currently the largest bags in the game is 48 slots? (not 100% on this) 48 x 6 = 288 items (Again I do not know if these items would just go into overflow or you wouldn't be able to craft anymore) I am not taking into account how many slot is taken up by the fuel in your bag (I do not think you can place fuel in a supply depot) Remember you need 1000 items just to make just 1 Mana.

Once you get the items you would then have to have a bot program to transmute all of those HC items. I have no clue if such a program exisit, but I wouldn't be surprised so I will give you the benefit of doubt. So you set this program up again and repeat this process until you get 1000 fragments.

Now I will admit I have no clue again bot programs, so I am guessing here, but I would assume you would then have to set it up to convert the fragments to voids, voids to infusions, and then infusions to manas. If there is a bot program that would do all that, they player would still lose anywhere from 38pp to 58pp, by doing this process. I guess I don't see the point. To flood the market with Manas so the prices drop so you lose even more money in the process? Why would some one do this? Just buy the mana from the broker.

You are correct the time would not be a deterent to a bot program, but the money cost would be. So I have to disagree with you on your point.

You may not agree with my idea, but you can not say that people would flood the market with manas when they are losing over 35pp per mana and with those loses increasing as the supply increases.

Now what you suggest could allready happen. Why not buy all the void powders on the broker that average 30gp to 75gp if you get 1000 voids for 75gp it would cost 75pp to make which is still less than doing it via crafting (@ 78pp) People could do that now, so what is stopping them? They wouldn't make any money. Same thing would still apply, so I don't see that happening via HC items if it is not happening now.

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Old 05-04-2012, 02:38 PM   #17
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You also have to think about the raw harvests, they are not umlimited. You either have to harvest them yourself or use a pack pony or the harvest guys in your GH.

A harvest depot holds 20,000 items.

Now a Titanium Tower shield needs 4 titanium ore to make, that would make 5000 shield, thus converting into 5 manas.

Now I am not going to look it up to find it, but lets say an items only needs 1 of each raw material. That would convert into 20 manas, but completely deplete the harvest depot. I don't know about you but it takes a lot to fill it up.

But to what end? To flood the market with manas so you would lose over 50pp. That agruement just doesn't make sense to me.

I am glad people are taking the time to question my idea, people should. But I hope you are listening to my agreements and see the logic that I am putting forth.

People are worried that this may flood the market. (A valid concern) But I have shown through prices I have looked up in game that it just wouldn't be worth it. You would lose too much plat in the process. The only market this could change would be the fragment market. When I checked yesterday (5/3) Underfoot fragments cost 40gp, while Void Powders cost 30gp. (of course with any active market these will change)

The only reason for this is the supply is so low that the price sky rockets. My idea will just give another way to get some fragments into the world. My point here is about giving more options to the player if you want to buy void powders and convert them down that is one choice, tranmute gear and then convert them down is yet another other choice. My idea will help the crafter (or give another choice) to get some fragments.

Which brings me to another valid point a poster brough up, is this necessary? Of course not. I don't want people to think that I believe this is the most important idea in the history of EQ2, not even close. But there has been many ideas added into this game that was not necessary, but helpful or fun additions. Adding horses to get around older zones not necessary, but helpful. Beastlords not necessary, but I think people are having fun with them (ok this topic I am sure has a large range of views) Plus Beastlords were something SoE said they would never put in.

I think my idea would be helpful to crafters more than anyone. I heard a lot of people like to have, for example, a lvl 30 adventure as a lvl 40 tradeskiller, so that adventure could use the gear they make as they level. Now you could craft some gear or transmute the HC gear you have when you replace it to help level your adorner and put adornments in your new gear. I don't see how that is a bad thing? How does that hurt the game? That seems very helpful to me.

Tollymore brought up a good point about people will only level transmuting as they level their tradeskiller. I agreed with him only to the point where that would just be an additional option to do those things. My idea will never change the fact that the fast way to level up your tradeskiller is through Rush Orders or a Tradeskill Instance. I can't speak for the crafting community, but I think most people will agree with me that if you want to level a tradeskill up fast do Rush Orders.

This wasn't the fact though before when you would get bonus xp for making a first time item. As my sage, jeweler, or alchemist often times I would just make first time combines on all the abilities upgrades and level that way. Was this change necessary? Nope. Did it help WW, Provies and other classes with less items to make? I would say yes.

My point here is that making HC items transmutable will give another option to help level up transmuting (As people have stated here there are many other choices), maybe bring a little balance to the fragment market, and will help crafters be a part of that adorning material/adornment market without having to be an adventurer or buy these items from the broker.  To me I think that is a good thing and that is why I am spending my time to debate this and hopefully get this added into the game. It may never happen, but I just wanted to get this idea out there, as ever since I started to play this game again I never understood why a teasured item from some skeleton drop can be transmuted, but my HC item could not.

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Old 05-04-2012, 05:52 PM   #18
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I am just glad the devs have enough sense not to do this...I could go on and on about item/plat sinks, vendor value, fuels costs, etc... but why bother.

Your idea, outside of tier 1, is a very poor one, and no amount of justification is going to change that.

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Old 05-04-2012, 06:45 PM   #19
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Zivgar wrote:

Y[email protected] wrote:

Making the first 5 levels of transmuting more resonable for new transmuters (

I like this idea I would have no problem with that, of course I like my idea (I have put some thought into this)

Giving people the ability to crank out top tier transmuting components for free:  *Not* a minor thing...

In my OP I put into it numbers from the game. To make a lvl 80 item one fuel cost 1gp 56sp (not free)

It takes 5 fuel to make 1 items 5x 1gp 56sp = 7gp 80sp (not free) This will give you 1 fragment

When I check the AB server this morning Underfoot fragments cost 40gp and Void Powders cost 30gp

To make 1 void powder from HC crafting items would cost 7gp 80sp x 10 = 78gp which cost 48gp more than what you could buy the void powder on the broker (again not free)

From my post with Tollymore it would take 1236 crafted items to make 1 superior adorn 7gp 80sp x 1236 = 96pp 41gp (not free) not to mention the time to make all that stuff

I guess I don't see your agruement that it would be free.

I will agree with you that it will give the ability to crank out fragments which the supply for is so low that the cost is even more than void powders. How is bringing down that price a bad thing? Give me some reason, if it is logical I will agree with you just as I agreed that people will be able to crank out fragments.

Suddenly you're sanctioning mass producing of transmuting components, including new ones (such as when T10 transmuting is launched) without leaving the guild hall...

Well if this new content is any indication when T10 materials come out the only items that will give you fragments are adept books since no longer teasured item drop. This now gives another source to get fragments (I think some legenary items may give framents and voids) As a crafter if another crafter wants to do this I don't see anything wrong with that why should fragments cost more than the higher void item doesn't seem to make sense to me.

My comments in Red

Hmm...so by this logic...

Breaking down 1 void powder to 7 fragments costs 1 areated water and...5 fuel?

So 7g fuel + 30g void powder = 37g costs for 40g fragment x 7 = 280g - 37g materials cost = 243g profit from 1 combine.

Stop ignoring the down convert recipe please.

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Old 05-04-2012, 07:25 PM   #20
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In my mind, it's flawed to base the impact of the idea on T9 components, a tier we've been stuck for eons, and economy that's long since stabilized at a commodity level.

One needs to consider the costs and economy present in future tiers as well.  For example, when T9 launched, fragments hovered at 1-3p for a very, very long time (until supply finally outstripped demand).  They required that someone actually go out and do something (kill a mob, harvest a rare, etc...) - which took people time to do in sufficient quantities to bring prices down.

Now, when(/if) T10 transmuting ever gets here, we need to consider the impact of an immediate and trivial source of highly valued materials, and in my mind, it's a seriously negative impact.  (Others may disagree).

Being able to sit there and crank out new fragments (mana's don't worry me as much, for exactly the same reason the ability to upconvert fragments to mana's now doesn't worry me, it's not worth the effort) will be an enormously profitable process.  It harms the economy for those actually doing things 'properly', by undercutting the value of their goods.  It disproportionally rewards botting, or just sitting there churning out fragments willy nilly for hours at an crack, at a profit of (at launch) potentially several plat per combine.

As has been said by many, if the intent is to fix low level transmuting, fix low level transmuting.  Using low level transmuting as an argument to institute a mechanics change that will allow people to afk grind out plat in guild halls seems, overly broad...

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Old 05-04-2012, 09:16 PM   #21
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Meirril wrote:

Hmm...so by this logic...

Breaking down 1 void powder to 7 fragments costs 1 areated water and...5 fuel?

So 7g fuel + 30g void powder = 37g costs for 40g fragment x 7 = 280g - 37g materials cost = 243g profit from 1 combine.

Stop ignoring the down convert recipe please.

Meirril I am glad you brought this up.

Let us use your example but look at it in another way. You stated to convert 1 void powder into 7 Underfoot fragments would cost 37gp (well you got the 30gp from my example, but that doesn't matter) 

So basically you spent 5gp 28sp per fragment, but the current market price on the broker for an Underfoot Fragment is between 30gp and 40gp. So why would any one ever buy the Underfoot Fragments on the broker when you could just buy a void powder and convert it to 7 Underfoot Fragments. 

I'll try and give a couple reasons, some one can not do that convertion, so they buy the components to have an adorner make the item for them. They don't care about paying essentially 7 times more for a Fragment than if you down converted a Void Powder. That is something I will never do, but it comes back to one of my major points: Its all about more choices. 

So this is something I currently do with the voids that I transmute (I don't buy or sell them since I have 4 90+ that I want to be fully adorned).

My point here is again I feel because the supply of fragments is so low since giving another option will help that supply so the prices reflect the other 3 components. If Void Powders cost around 30gp to 75gp then Underfoot fragments should cost around 3gp to 7gp 50sp, but it is currently around 30gp to 40gp because the supply is so low. Why do you guys who are against my idea want to pay more? If this would bring down the prices of fragments (I have shown factual evidence that it will not change the void market) why is that a bad idea? When has anyone ever say 'I want to pay more for stuff!'

Meirril has told me not to ignore the down convert recipe, in fact Meirril has just shown a great way to make money (2pp 43gp profit from a 37gp investment) I have a friend who buys all Void Powders under 50gp down converts them all to Fragments to sell. Is this why people are against my idea because they would lose this market? If that is the reason I can understand that. But if my idea will bring the price down, I say why pay more?

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Old 05-04-2012, 11:31 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

In my mind, it's flawed to base the impact of the idea on T9 components, a tier we've been stuck for eons, and economy that's long since stabilized at a commodity level.

I think it is perfect to analyze a stable market to look at trends. Its stable and what I see is that the prices for Underfoot Fragments dictate that there is a low supply. Supply and Demand Economics show that will increase the price. Do you disagree with this statement?

To lower the prices you have to increase the supply, this is simple supply and demand economics.

I feel the price is too high. I feel there needs to be more ways to get fragments into the market to increase the supply. Do you agree with my assesment? (This is my opinion, nothing wrong if you disagree with me)

Now with gear having 2 white adorn slots the demand is going to increase, which will raise prices. To keep it in some balanced the supply must increase also. My idea will not do this, it will increase the fragment supply, but to what to end? But this will do nothing for the void, infusion, or mana markets that will always be dependent on loot drops.

One needs to consider the costs and economy present in future tiers as well.  For example, when T9 launched, fragments hovered at 1-3p for a very, very long time (until supply finally outstripped demand).  They required that someone actually go out and do something (kill a mob, harvest a rare, etc...) - which took people time to do in sufficient quantities to bring prices down.

Great point, you have to consider that. Now T10 will be different whenever those adornments become available since people are allready able to harvest rares and commons, by the time this happens the prices of those items should stablize.

Let me get your concern correct, I may be wrong here. What you are saying is that when these components become available you would rather have the fragments cost more for a longer period of time as the market stablizes, instead of the supply increasing more quickly to lower the price faster? I guess I am confused why having prices become normalized faster is a bad thing.

Now, when(/if) T10 transmuting ever gets here, we need to consider the impact of an immediate and trivial source of highly valued materials, and in my mind, it's a seriously negative impact.  (Others may disagree).

This part is an opinion, but I think manas and infusions are highly valued as they come from fabled and legenary gear. I feel fragments are common items (need 6 to make each tier of adornments lesser, greater, and superior). They come from adept books and teasured items, but with the new SS content there is no teasured items that drop. The supply of fragments is gonna be even worse unless there is something to replace it.

So in your opinion you think paying less for fragments is a seriously neagtive impact? Or do you think having crafters have a market for their HC items a seriously negative impact? Or do you think adding the option of crafters being able to get into the fragment market instead of only adventurers a seriously negative impact? Whatever you think its your opinion, so it can't be wrong. My opinion is that all of those things I mentioned is a good thing.

Being able to sit there and crank out new fragments (mana's don't worry me as much, for exactly the same reason the ability to upconvert fragments to mana's now doesn't worry me, it's not worth the effort) will be an enormously profitable process.  It harms the economy for those actually doing things 'properly', by undercutting the value of their goods.  It disproportionally rewards botting, or just sitting there churning out fragments willy nilly for hours at an crack, at a profit of (at launch) potentially several plat per combine.

As you stated anytime something new is introduce into the game the supply is low the prices are high. Look at the new TS apprentice, when SS first came out it they would sell for 50pp+ now they sell for less than 5pp. That market has stablized.

So when you say 'properly' you mean getting drops, so you mean only adventurers will be enormously profitable. Last I knew adorning was crafting, so why can't crafters be enormously profitable like adventurers until the market stablizes?

Now you add a good point about bot'ers. So if bot'ers flood the market with fragments, the supply will increase. All the bot'ers will undercut each other and the prices will drop so fast. This will just get the market to that stable point much sooner. This will only hurt the 'at launch' seller, but will help the people trying to buy the product get cheaper prices. Again I don't see this as a bad thing, in my opinion I think lower prices on a item that I think is common is a great thing.

As has been said by many, if the intent is to fix low level transmuting, fix low level transmuting.  Using low level transmuting as an argument to institute a mechanics change that will allow people to afk grind out plat in guild halls seems, overly broad...

I will restate my intent:

1) Give players another option to level up transmuting ( I feel the biggest benefit will be low level transmuting)

2) Balance the fragment market. You need 6 fragments to make each adornment tier (lesser, greater, superior). I feel these are the common item in the adornment materials, these should have the largest supply and be the cheapest component. As it stand it is almost the same price of voids and sometimes cost more. Is my idea the solution? I would say no, but I do feel that it can help. Some people think this idea would flood the market, so if they are right then it would lower the price. But what would the price be? I would say at least around 7gp 80sp (cost of T8 fuel x5) But as Meirril pointed out that the cost of a fragment if you down converted from a 30gp Void Powder would be 5gp 28sp that is cheaper than a HC item transmuted into a fragment, so this would still not be the best option, just another choice.

3)Give crafters the ability to enter the fragment market. Adorning is crafting, so why is it only adventurers can get these items to make the components? All I am proposing is to give something back to crafters. Allow them equal oppertunity to gain these adorning materials just as an adventurer can. I guess I don't see why equal oppertunity a bad idea here

People will only be able to get plat from this, like you said, 'at launch' when new items come into the game, but everyone is getting plat when it is early with new content. As the market gets flooded with fragments the price will drop fast (supply and demand). When the market stablizes they are only gonna get a couple gp per sell for an item that should be the most common component in the adorning world.

My comments in Red

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Old 05-05-2012, 12:05 AM   #23
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ReddyKY wrote:

I am just glad the devs have enough sense not to do this...I could go on and on about item/plat sinks, vendor value, fuels costs, etc... but why bother.

I will give you a reason why not to bother I have done it for you allready. If you look at it, I feel you will come to the same conclusion that I did. My idea will increase the supply of fragments, supply and demand economics dictate increase the supply, the prices goes down. My idea will lower the prices of fragments. I think we can agree on that point right? You may not like my idea, but you can not disagree with proven supply and demand economics.

So help me out, why is paying less for something a poor idea? Please give me your reasons, since you have been posting here, you must have some interest. As you said I can't give you a reason why having more choices, or paying less is a good idea, so help me out and give me your reasons as to why this is a poor idea.

Your idea, outside of tier 1, is a very poor one, and no amount of justification is going to change that.

Ok Reddy I will bite, comments in Red

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Old 05-05-2012, 03:25 AM   #24
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mentor down to level 5 , go to a newbie zone (TD is my favourite) , mass slaughter , loot , transmute..

Doesn't take long to get out of Tier 1-3 this way.

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Old 05-05-2012, 09:26 AM   #25
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I get most of my fragments from converting powder > frag

I tend to get far more powders than fragments and it is a space-saver in a way. I just break down a few powders when I am running short on fragments to make my adornments.

You can get transmuting from 5-400 in a day, just mentoring and hitting starter zones.

Adorning is even faster!

Besides, transmuting is not a true tradeskill. Its something anyone can do and they never even have to be an aritsan! So no, the idea of making handcrafted transmutable is not something I ever want to see. As a tradeskiller, you ALREADY have an advantage over non-crafters! You can craft mastercrafted items to transmute, where a non-crafter has to rely only on what they loot!

Seriously, who is going to turn fragments into mana?  Thats what infusions are for!

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Old 05-05-2012, 01:26 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

mentor down to level 5 , go to a newbie zone (TD is my favourite) , mass slaughter , loot , transmute..

Doesn't take long to get out of Tier 1-3 this way.

I guess I should add this point in. I have 4 max level adorners, I have a 48 wizard who is a 90 sage at 250 skill transmuter. I have a couple other characters in the mid to high 20's with about 50 transmuting skill. I have serveral more characters with only 5 transmuting skill.

Though I appreciate people trying to help me out to level up my transmuting I have heard most of these allready. In fact TD and Halas are the two spots I start out at.  It is great that people are saying all these different ways to get transmuting up. My idea just gives one more way, why is getting more choice a bad idea? Can any one explain this to me?

Even with my idea I still think mass slaughter would still be the best way, but if you get bored of that and just need to get a couple points more, don't know where to get transmuting skill items, then why not be able to craft a couple HC items to get those last few points? I don't see how this is a bad thing. Please some one explain it to me other than that is changes the mechanics. Mechanics change all the time this is nothing new.

So Wull, before you posted that with my idea the market would be flooded with manas and I replied to post showing you that would not be the case because you would lose a lot of plat doing that.  Several people on here have agreed with me on that point that nobody converts fragments to manas. You didn't reply to what I said, so should I assume that this is no longer a concern about my idea, since you have said no further comments about it?

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Old 05-05-2012, 08:46 PM   #27
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Zivgar wrote:

ReddyKY wrote:

My idea will increase the supply of fragments, supply and demand economics dictate increase the supply, the prices goes down.

Your idea, outside of tier 1, is a very poor one, and no amount of justification is going to change that.

Ok Reddy I will bite, comments in Red

So it was as I suspected then. The complaint about t1 transumting was just a ruse to cover the real intent and that was to make it easier for you get stuff. Thanks for at least being honest about it.

P.S. Transmuting is an item sink. It effectively removes coin from the game by keeping items from being vendored. As such, even if I were for your scheme, the cost of creating a item that supplants for a treasured item of that tier would, at a minimum, have to be as expensive as the vendor value of an adept spell; in your proposal it is not.

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Old 05-05-2012, 08:53 PM   #28
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Zivgar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

mentor down to level 5 , go to a newbie zone (TD is my favourite) , mass slaughter , loot , transmute..

 

Doesn't take long to get out of Tier 1-3 this way.

 

I guess I should add this point in. I have 4 max level adorners, I have a 48 wizard who is a 90 sage at 250 skill transmuter. I have a couple other characters in the mid to high 20's with about 50 transmuting skill. I have serveral more characters with only 5 transmuting skill.

Though I appreciate people trying to help me out to level up my transmuting I have heard most of these allready. In fact TD and Halas are the two spots I start out at.  It is great that people are saying all these different ways to get transmuting up. My idea just gives one more way, why is getting more choice a bad idea? Can any one explain this to me?

Even with my idea I still think mass slaughter would still be the best way, but if you get bored of that and just need to get a couple points more, don't know where to get transmuting skill items, then why not be able to craft a couple HC items to get those last few points? I don't see how this is a bad thing. Please some one explain it to me other than that is changes the mechanics. Mechanics change all the time this is nothing new.

So Wull, before you posted that with my idea the market would be flooded with manas and I replied to post showing you that would not be the case because you would lose a lot of plat doing that.  Several people on here have agreed with me on that point that nobody converts fragments to manas. You didn't reply to what I said, so should I assume that this is no longer a concern about my idea, since you have said no further comments about it?

Let me reiterate. As a crafter, you already have an advantage! You can whip out a few mastercrafted items to transmute for skill-ups or a few more materials! I don't think you're understanding that ANYONE can transmute.  So those that don't craft and transmute HAVE TO 'farm' drops for transmuting.  Just looking at that perspective, it would be an unfair advantage over adventurer-only transmuters who don't craft.  As I see it, if you're an adventurer and crafter, you have the best of both!

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Old 05-06-2012, 01:39 AM   #29
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Kuulei wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

mentor down to level 5 , go to a newbie zone (TD is my favourite) , mass slaughter , loot , transmute..

 

Doesn't take long to get out of Tier 1-3 this way.

 

I guess I should add this point in. I have 4 max level adorners, I have a 48 wizard who is a 90 sage at 250 skill transmuter. I have a couple other characters in the mid to high 20's with about 50 transmuting skill. I have serveral more characters with only 5 transmuting skill.

Though I appreciate people trying to help me out to level up my transmuting I have heard most of these allready. In fact TD and Halas are the two spots I start out at.  It is great that people are saying all these different ways to get transmuting up. My idea just gives one more way, why is getting more choice a bad idea? Can any one explain this to me?

Even with my idea I still think mass slaughter would still be the best way, but if you get bored of that and just need to get a couple points more, don't know where to get transmuting skill items, then why not be able to craft a couple HC items to get those last few points? I don't see how this is a bad thing. Please some one explain it to me other than that is changes the mechanics. Mechanics change all the time this is nothing new.

So Wull, before you posted that with my idea the market would be flooded with manas and I replied to post showing you that would not be the case because you would lose a lot of plat doing that.  Several people on here have agreed with me on that point that nobody converts fragments to manas. You didn't reply to what I said, so should I assume that this is no longer a concern about my idea, since you have said no further comments about it?

Let me reiterate. As a crafter, you already have an advantage! You can whip out a few mastercrafted items to transmute for skill-ups or a few more materials! I don't think you're understanding that ANYONE can transmute.  So those that don't craft and transmute HAVE TO 'farm' drops for transmuting.  Just looking at that perspective, it would be an unfair advantage over adventurer-only transmuters who don't craft.  As I see it, if you're an adventurer and crafter, you have the best of both!

With my idea a crafter would only be able to get fragments, I am not 100% positive on this but transmuting MC items only give you powders. I am not sure of the current prices of T9 rares, but I would bet around 1pp for the cheapest? If you only get powders from it why would you spend 1pp+ to get an item that costs 30gp to 75gp? How is that an advantage? Please tell me? So since you only get powders from MC items why would a crafter do this? I just don't see the adavantage to that point you make for a crafter making MC gear to get powders over just buying it.

So let us state the following if my idea was put into the game who would have the adavantage in what adorning material market:

Fragments: The crafter would here since you could make them for around 7gp 80sp, plus you wouldn't have to go out and farm the items since you can get them from a GH harvest depot with harvesters. ( You are correct when you say that is an advantage I agree with you. But fragments are 'The 'lowest' component, used as a secondary component in all adornment recipes.' (A quote taken from http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Transmuting)

Powders: I feel the advantage here is to the adventurer. (This is an opinion, you may disagree but I would like to read your reasons) You are correct that a crafter could get a rare, make MC items and transmute it into a fragment. At a cost of 7gp 80sp (assuming it uses 5 T9 fuels) But how would you get that rare? Either farm it yourself (Same as an adventurer) Or buy it from the broker. The cheapest T9 rare was a Toxnettle root for 78gp, cheapest void powder was 33gp. So there is no advantage here, the crafter and the adventurer would have to farm an item (either harvest a rare, or get a loot drop). Ok I have to add this in as I just saw it expert CA/spells according to wiki (the link that I shared) when transmuted will give a powder and an uncommon chance of an infusion. Currently on the broker from the AB server kaborite clusters and ulteran diamonds are selling for 4pp 20gp. An infusion of the void is selling 4pp 23gp. Since we are all transmuters here, I would assume we all know that the chance to get the higher items is at best 50%? So again I don't see the advantage here for the crafter. I would just buy the infusion from the broker instead of taking a 50/50 chance at best to get an infusion for an item that costs the same.

Why I think the adavantage goes to the adventurer is first off the loot drop is free, secondly with the amount of legendary items that drop you have a good chance at getting an infusion or the powder. I disadvantage would be that you have to group to get these items ( Though people solo, PR, VP, SoH, TSO zones, heck even one guys sent me a message saying which zones he likes to solo to farm legendary gear So with mercs you really don't even need a group.

But for agruement sake lets call it a PUSH.

Infusions: Sage/alchemist/jewelers is the only crafter that can make an item that will created an infusion unless it is a loot drop item. That is 1/3 of the crafters. Rares that make CA's/Spells are the most expensive rares out there, making it not worth just at a chance of an infusion. Clear cut advantage adventurers.

Manas: No crafter can make an item that when transmuted could be a mana unless one of the component is a loot drop. Advantage Adventurers.

Add it all up:

Adventurers (with my idea): 2 (On the highest of the adorning materials); (current system) 2

Crafters: 1 (On the lowest compontent of adorning materials); (current system) 0

PUSH (with my idea): 1 (powders); (current system) 2

In my opinion, with my idea, I see the adavantage to the adventurer, which I believe it should mostly stay. With the crafter being able to have the biggest advantage in only the fragment market.

With the current system, the advanatge is all to the adventurer. I know i put PUSH on 2 of the material tiers, but I am trying to stay neutral, leaning more to what you suggest as the advantage to the crafter basing it on being able to craft MC items. But with mercs and being able to solo, older zones from 90 scaled TSO and SF, it seems it would be so much easier to get loot drops, than farming for rares (plus the pack pony would help here) That is why I am giving it a PUSH and with that the adaventurer in my opinion still has the advantage.

I truely hope you respond to this as I have enjoy these discussions. You attack my ideas and points, but not me, you post your concerns, where I try and give numbers from the in game market to dispute them. Please if anything you don't think is right, I will hope you comment on it, but I feel I have just made a pretty good agruement why I don't think crafters have the advantage at all, even if my idea went into the game.

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Old 05-06-2012, 03:44 AM   #30
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ReddyKY wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

ReddyKY wrote:

My idea will increase the supply of fragments, supply and demand economics dictate increase the supply, the prices goes down.

Your idea, outside of tier 1, is a very poor one, and no amount of justification is going to change that.

Ok Reddy I will bite, comments in Red

So it was as I suspected then. The complaint about t1 transumting was just a ruse to cover the real intent and that was to make it easier for you get stuff. Thanks for at least being honest about it.

Reddy why the blanket statement about stuff? By stuff do you mean fragments? My what a huge ruse by my part to want a system where fragments, 'the 'lowest' component, used as a secondary component in all adornment recipes' (quote from wiki on transmuting), should have the largest supply out there and by increasing that supply would lower the prices for players, who can not down convert from the powders.  If I had a 'ruse' to get stuff (I have no idea by what you mean by stuff) wouldn't I want the system to stay as it is? Buy as many powder as I can for 30gp to 75gp, convert them down to fragments at a cost of  6gp to 12gp per fragment and then sell those on the broker for 30gp to 40gp? Hell Meirril allready did the math for you and you make decent money from it, where I could actually buy stuff.

So with my idea it would drive the prices down on fragments, so I can get 'stuff'?, I am so confused by what you mean here. So I can get enough fragments to make lesser adorns? Man I would be so uber running around with my lesser adorns! I will ask you again what do you mean by stuff? I doubt you will answer any of my questions to you, since you have yet to do so. Why are you so reluctant to answer the questions I have possed to you so far?

I can down convert my powders into fragments. In fact, that is the only way for me to get fragments, so I can fill all my white adorn slots. And since I have 4 char that can solo SoH, PR, VP, lvl 90 TSO zones, easiest SF zones, ect (as many players can, not trying to say i'm special or some elite player), but for players that can't I want to give them more options. I know you don't like my idea (though you do think it is a good one for T1, just a poor one for other tiers), but can you truely agrue that having more choices is a bad thing?

P.S. Transmuting is an item sink. It effectively removes coin from the game by keeping items from being vendored. As such, even if I were for your scheme, the cost of creating a item that supplants for a treasured item of that tier would, at a minimum, have to be as expensive as the vendor value of an adept spell; in your proposal it is not.

I agree with you, one of the reasons of transmuting is an item sink, though the main reason is to get materials for adorning. So as an example, some one makes for their character a full suit of HC gear all 21 slots, when they get upgrades what do they have to do with that HC gear? They have to sell it to the vendor, but if HC items were transmutable this would create an item sink where it effectively removes coin from the game by keeping items from being vendored. Hmm I wonder where I got that from?

On to your 2nd point, I had to stop and think about this for a bit as I am trying to figure out exactly what your agrument is. I looked up the cheapest T9 adept book (18gp on the broker from AB, checked the vendor price 20gp 35sp, and then the underfoot fragment price 38gp 37sp) Cheapest attunable item on the broker was 26gp 40sp selling to a vendor as 16gp 20sp. As I have stated it would cost 7gp 80sp to make a HC item, which with my idea would transmute into a fragment. Those items could transmute into a powder or fragment.

Ok I understand now, with my idea, as a guess, lets say fragments drop to only 10gp each. You are saying that these items, adept book and teasured gear, would be worth more to sell as vendor fodder, instead of trying to sell the fragments, which with my idea would range anywhere from 5gp to 15gp (This is a guess as there is no way to prove how the market would react).

So what you are saying is that my idea would kill the market on adepts and teasured gear, in terms of transmuting into fragments. (Though selling for the actually propose of the item would still exisit, but I think we would both agree these items are on the broker mostly to sell to be transmuted) Now for me whenever I get an adept I transmute it right away, same goes for teasured items. Now that is my choice, just as I wanted more choices to help transmuting, this idea of mine could and most likely take away the choice of players who want to sell these items, they still can just not on the broker, since there wouldn't be as big of a market for them.

So I propose a compromise, you don't want to see that market go away, I want to see the supply of fragments increase. Have teasured items (adept books are flagged as teasured) give 2 fragments, plus you are also forgetting (as did I, but that wiki page on transmuting is quite helpful) that teasured item when transmuted can also create powders or create a powder plus a fragment. My idea could only give one fragment. Down convert that powder into 7 fragments when you bought a 18gp adept book or 26gp teasured gear, that would then cost 2gp 50sp per fragment for the adept book and 3gp 70sp per fragment on the teasured gear. Now that is cheaper than the  7gp and 80sp of a HC items.

I know, I know I can't use getting 1 void as an example so use a larger scale example:

1000 items at 24gp (middle ground between 18 and 26 is 22, but going higher in this example)

Chance of Fragment/powder/fragment and powder = 50%/40%/10% with down conversion would = 4000 fragments

cost would be 24gp x 1000 = 24000gp/4000 = 6gp per fragment (costs less than HC item)

Chance of Fragment/powder/fragment and powder = 75%/15%/10% with down conversion would = 2600 fragments

cost would  be 24gp x 1000 = 24000gp/2600 = 9gp 23sp per fragment (costs more than HC item)

Obviously cost of items goes up and ratio is more fragments than powders, the cost will go up and proving your point that this market will change for the worst for these items if people are trying to buy them for fragments.

But I have to bring you back to a couple points I have made. First off with the current system it would still be better to just buy a powder and down convert it to fragments. Even with the best fragment to powder ratio it would still be cheaper to down convert a powder, in the current system. So your agrument loses a lot of weight when the market with the current system makes the selling of adepts and teasured gear, not as good as down conversion. The only thing my idea will change will be the focus shifted to HC items and down conversion of powders as the main way to get fragments. Currently the best way is the down conversion of powders and serveral people have agreed with me on this point. Plus with Skyshrine I have yet to see a treasured piece of gear drop, seems to me that SoE is fazing out that market. I don't think I have seen one in DoV either.

My last point is that currently adventurers have the advantage in the adornment material market. In a post above I showed reasons why I feel that is true.

Now if my idea gives the advantage to crafters in the fragment market and the adventurers still control powders, infusions, and manas, I don't feel that loss is a bad thing. Plus adventures can still down convert powders and get a product that is cheaper than making HC items (free if you get the drop or 30gp to 50gp on the broker). Now it doesn't seem that bad to me, more power to the crafter

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