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Old 05-04-2005, 07:11 PM   #1
ootpek

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Because of all the discussions about DPS of Coercers I've been logging fights and trying experiments.  Mainly because I don't see a problem with my DPS and any coercer not charming, especially in a group situation, really isn't doing all they CAN do.  I'm parsing these the long way by running through the text file myself in an excel spreadsheet cause I haven't seen a parser that can count a charmed pet yet. Here is my experiment from last night... The tester: Level 40 Coercer Logging fights using NO master spells at all.  (Ooops, found one spot where I used a Fairy Master out of habit) Only HO's if possible. Charm as much as possible. Solo. Fight 1. Fighting 2 linked Runnyeye Merc's. First mob is charmed to kill 2nd.  DPS is 72.97.  35 seconds. 2nd mob, nuking and dotting only.  DPS is 39.83.   45% lower.  54 seconds. Problem with this test is the mobs had the same name, so hard to tell in the logs if it's MY pet doing damage to the other mob or reversed.  Although since the coercer ends up with aggro most of the time solo you can assume it's your pet hitting the other usually. So went to find 2 mobs with different names. Fight 2. Darkflight hag and darkflight savage.  Charmed the hag first. Hag can't melee the Savage it seems.  So it's damage was all casting. Savage died in 61 seconds.  So you know already that I had to recharm.  I did have some issues recharming and controlling the mobs in the middle.  Ended up with 40.01 DPS at the end. However just looking at the first 36 seconds my DPS was 46.94 DPS and actually managed to top out at 57.14 earlier in the fight.   After the savage was dead, because of the extra beating I took in the middle I decided to mez the Hag and run off for a break.  I would probably recommend people charm savages first in this situation as in the past I've had better luck that way cause of the strengths/weaknesses of the mobs. Fight 3. Brigand^ and 3 Bandits in Runnyeye. Charmed a Bandit first, and then the Brigand.  Brigand was actually behind a tree so didn't see him and he surprised me. Took 22 seconds to kill 1 bandit and managed 78.5 DPS and I cast 2 spells for 545 dmg and my DS put out 220 dmg.  The 2 pets did the remaining 962 dmg, or 56% of the total damage.  Pets started coming free and my escape was thwarted by an accumulation of debt.  *sigh* Soloing sucks sometimes. Fight 4. Back to the Brigand^ and now 2 Bandits. Charm the Brigand first this time and then a Bandit. 21 seconds to kill the next bandit, 93.71 DPS with me casting 1 nuke of 322.  Ran off afterwards to keep my debt from increasing. Fight 5. Brigand^ and 1 bandit. 14 seconds because I was nuking hard, 135.57 DPS.  I nuked for 756 out of 1898 damage.  So the pet made up  60% of my output. Left with only the Brigand^ I got some distance and went into wimpy wizzy mode.  50 seconds later I barely survived and output 73.84 DPS using lots of HO's and every dot and nuke I had. Obviously solo fights you have more mob manipulation, your DPS will be reduced by time to root, stun, die etc.  Probably the best example of what I CAN do with charm+nuke is in the last fight where me and my Brigand^ pet managed 135.57 DPS, high enough to put me near the top of any of the groups I've seen DPS output for recently anyway.  In a group situation where the MT has aggro, you don't HAVE to root/stun things just to survive the melee.  So you can beguile faster, nuke and dot faster, and even recharm easier for longer fights.  So theoretically you should be able to bump up that DPS output a little even.  And if you take into account that any time you have a pet you are limiting incoming damage to the group, you can make a huge difference. I would say that not having a pet is basically limiting you to 50% of your possibility.  Sure you can't have a pet ALL the time, either the mob is solo, or your charm wears off etc, but it CAN help increase your power for sure. Tomorrows analysis, charming within a group. CRTW (Coercers rule the world)
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Old 05-04-2005, 08:02 PM   #2
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ooptek I am truely sorry to say but ...

at lvl 39 warlock during solo averaging (with HO with roots with debuffs - all time included) around 300-350DPS - that's is in laid off mode (lvl 49 wizard reported 463DPS during solo but hey I still have 9 lvls to catch up with him)

You test is good thou in sence that its providing data how much DPS you can expect from charming pet around lvl 40... We can safely say around 45 for melee pet and around 60 for caster mob. Just dont foget we are talking about susteined DPS over duration of fight not spike DPS

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Old 05-04-2005, 08:22 PM   #3
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Bah, last thing I want to do is spam charm every 30 seconds on top of buffing 24 people with Clarity.  Charm line has to be improved and the duration has to increased to actually mean something.  I do enough button smashing as it is.  I want my utility improved, and I want a valuable version of charm.  I could care less about upgrading our nukes and dots. 
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Old 05-04-2005, 08:35 PM   #4
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Actually dots could be good sourse of damage if they would not be such power hogs lol

Despair Master 1 do 108-134/4.8s and 108-134 on impact cost 117 power to cast 2s cast time total damage 648-804 over 24s. Despair Adept 3 do 88-108 damage cost 111 power and total damage a lot lower 528-648

Torment Adept 3 do 109 on impact and 109/4s cost about as much Despair but return about 60 power back in the end of dot 4s casting time is horrible thou but total damage is 763 over 24s

If you combine casting time and duration 2+4+24 = 30s and look on total damage 1411-1567 you end up with around 50DPS (declamer if you dots not at master or very least adept 3 - dps will be much lower)

 
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Old 05-04-2005, 08:56 PM   #5
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I find charm usefull while solo'ing; not so usefull grouping.  A 2 mob solo encounter in the Feerrott is made easier, and more entertaining with the use of beguile.  In groups however, they just go down too quickly.  The single ^ and down limitation further depreciates its usefullness in group settings.  The irony is that the mobs I can charm in a group setting isn't causing enough harm to do so and they'll all die soon enough anyway.  The mobs that are causing damage I can't beguile.
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:33 PM   #6
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Tanatus...You may be sorry but I'm not.  My test was limited to mobs lower than me just because I didn't have a group and didn't feel like gathering alot of debt.  Put me in a group fighting harder mobs even red to me and I believe I can easily top 400 DPS.  Not all the time of course but hey, the same thing all the time is boring to me.  So while my numbers might indicate 40 to 60 additional DPS per mob, it's only indicitave of THOSE mobs.  I can find bigger badder pets I'm sure.  The Brigand^ added added 81 DPS for example.  In another instance I can remember, but don't have the log anymore, I saw my ONE pet output 2000 damage in about 6 seconds once.  Thats 333 DPS.  It was a melee barrage with multiple other mobs but thats nothing to sneeze at for sure.  Azmodeus...Look at charm like an improved dot.  Cast it on an add and not only does it remove that mob from beating on your group, but it also adds that mobs damage to your own.  Casting a dot a fight is not unreasonable is it?  Ogre...I actually find that the harder the mobs you're fighting the better charm gets...if you're fighting mobs that die too fast then maybe your group is taking it easy etc.  Then I say you take it easy too and not charm....things will still die fast enough.  But if you're fighting a 40^^ with 2 adds with a beserker, defiler and you and you guys are having a hard time denting the 40^^ fast enough...CHARM THE ADDS AND LET THEM LOOSE!!! 
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:12 PM   #7
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Ootpek key word is susteined DPS *sign* if you want see spike DPS check wizard they can do 1800DPS (assuming IceCommet kill mob outright)

First of all lvl 50 mobs wont give you 300DPS they will give about same DPS as you have with lvl 38? mob that fighting lvl 38 mob... Surely if you take that lvl 50 and use it against say lvl 45 mob you might squeeze a lot but truth is that you will use lvl 50 vs. lvl 50 mob .... And if you want how much mob DPS you take lvl 50 guardian and make him tank lvl 50 mob that been stifled
 
Ootpek while you are theoretise about charm I know it from practical point of view and best pet I ever had was Tyr Warlock (lvl 51 NPC near Nagafen tonels). As I said you might get extremely lucky and your pet will come with active special attack  - but that's not something you can relay upon.
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:34 PM   #8
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If you kill a mob outright with 1800 DPS you're fighting an easy mob in my eyes.  Whats that?  Level 38 with no arrows?  Wooo...tuff. Wait til tomorrow when I go through my group fight log...ugh thats gonna be long...I have fights where I don't charm, where I charm and don't nuke, where I do both, where I charm 2 to 3 mobs at a time etc.  I think I had some really good examples...we'll see I guess.  Todays was just solo to show that charm DOES something.  I don't want to do DPS like a wizzie...I don't care.  Coercers are additive AND subtractive.  We DO damage and REMOVE damage coming in.  Add those together for any fight and we're much more than just our DPS.  If the group is fighting mobs where the tank isn't taking much damage...well then doing LOTS of DPS is probably good.  Running into things that can hit HARD is a different thing though, then we can remove some of that incoming damage and make it work for US.  And if you're fast enough on the pull you DO get the barrage and specials for your own use.  Honestly...you might have done lots of charming but to me it sound like you're more of an expert on wizards now. 
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:25 AM   #9
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The way charm is working now it is not needed in the end game.  When your 50 and raiding this spell will be buried in your spell book.  Single ^ arrow mobs die insanely quick and do very little damage and raids dispose of them quickly.  Now that being said, if we were able to charm double ^^  ups then MAYBE now your talking.  Charm, IF the duration is increased will be a snazzy little solo helper on next expansion when you start the next grind from 51 to 60. 
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:42 AM   #10
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Ootpek I am talking about susteined damage .... and its have nothing to do with power of DD ...

Coercer do around 50DPS with raw dots (assuming they adept 3 at very least of course, better masters). Charmed pet in current stage is not relaible sourse of damage by any mean. Take a look on 10-15 fights in Sol or Perma or even CT no matter charm you or not you wont go over 100DPS as a susteined DPS

We are not buff-bots we are not debuffers we are DPS class that deliver damage via mental damage and coercing enemies. For crist sake this is not EQ1 and as such there is no utility classes in this game

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Old 05-05-2005, 01:34 AM   #11
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Yet again.. I agree with Tanatus.
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Old 05-05-2005, 01:44 AM   #12
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Syan...thanks for your oh so helpful post. Tanatus...wait til tomorrow and I'll have parses from a good hour in a group.  Would that be sustainable enough for you?  Otherwise if you think one thing (With no proof) and I think another thing, and at least I'm trying to prove it, I'll end up having nothing to say to you after awhile and we'll have to agree to disaggree.  Azmodeous...just like EQ1...enchanters didn't have much to do in the end game.  Discussing that seperately would be a good thing I think. 
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:01 AM   #13
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Try telling that to enchanters on the RZtW encounter.  They made that encounter trivial.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:24 AM   #14
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Danm Gilbertus I DO miss RZtW SMILEY heh my main was necro and catching TS before fight was not that trivial (rare spawn)

RD was second example of triumph of charm 28 ppl 5 chanters = cake walk

Even in Luclin time enchanters rocked in DPS department on raid - LIS for example

Heh even at release at lvl 44 chanter would able farm solo FBSS

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Old 05-05-2005, 06:00 PM   #15
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Ok...more tests.  Just to show charm does increase our damage potential greatly. 40 Coercer, 36 Conj and 41 Beserker.  Fighting just inside Rivervale against corrupted bandits and such.  Basically taking on a few wimpy mobs til our Fury arrived later... Only dotting...Me 16.05 DPS and the group total 102.94 DPS.  15.5% my contribution. Only nuking...me 44.5 DPS and the group total 161.66 DPS.  27.5% me. Charming and nuking...me 67 DPS out of the group total of 138.48.  48% me.  Mob I charmed was the same mob and level we were fighting. As I understand it...Beserkers do well at DPS.  And since we were fighting wimpy mobs for the beserker he was outputting lots.  So me grabbing almost 50% of the group DPS is an achievement I think and shows how charm CAN make your output double over just nukes.  I'm only 300 lines into a 9000 line log so expect more shortly.  I just liked this test as an example of potential. 
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Old 05-05-2005, 08:54 PM   #16
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First let me say this is not a serious post. I in no way want to knock anyone attempting to do these measurements. Go to it guys, the more numbers the better.
 
I would like to share why these figures have given me the biggest smile I have ever had about coercer DPS. Please do not take my comments to heart, share the funny side of what you have posted.
 
In your examples...
a) you 16, rest 87.
b) you 45, rest 117.
c) you 67, rest 71.
 
Initial reaction. Wow the more you nuke the more the other players' damage goes up, perhaps these are the so called group enhancing buffs that we do!!!
 
Second reaction. Ugh, when we charm everyone else gets lazy. Presumably they stand back in awe at the uber coercer.
 
Third reaction hey if our nukes were prettier then perhaps they would watch the display and only do 71DPS. Thats an average of 36DPS for them compared to the 45DPS we can do with nukesSMILEY That would make us a high DPS class (or at least higher than a conjuror and a berserker). Better be careful they will want to nerf our DPS.
 
There are so many other ways to twist these few figures SMILEY.
 

I wish you the best of luck in getting usable numbers and hope you have the patience to gather a substantial amount of data.
 

To be semi-serious for a second, an initial impression is that your figures seem to show that using charm is just about as good as not. I know it depends on which DDs you used but generally if you mix dots and DDs you will do more than just DDs alone. Probably to the extent of being able to sum those two numbers. Say roughly 60 DPS. So which do you want to do 60DPS in safety, or 67 and have to cope with a buffed pet every 36 seconds?
 
One small criticism, please before you quote the percent of DPS you did, explain why the DPS of the rest of your group mates varies, or use an average. If you just swap the DPS they did in the last two results around then 44.5 out of (44.5+71) is 38% and 67 out of (67 + 117) is 36%. So nuking better than charm? It would be fairer to average their DPS at say 90. Note that at 90 they are doing roughly 45 DPS each. Which is what you managed just using nukes. So in this group you were doing average DPS.
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Old 05-05-2005, 09:30 PM   #17
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To quote Mark Twain..."There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."  You can go ahead and twist things around as much as you want at least I'm trying to get you guys some examples.  My statistics are only relevant for those three encounters obviously and maybe instead of saying they are statistical at all is false.  Really they are just three examples of encounters cause they aren't a large sample by any means. Course the groups total DPS goes up if my DPS goes up.   Thats just math. Swapping the DPS of the group around between encounters makes no sense as thats not what happened.  It's a different encounter with different results is all.  In another thread I went through a 900 line log file to analyse one fight with multiple mobs and groups.  Check that out and tell me how I can better show effective coercer DPS?
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Old 05-05-2005, 11:52 PM   #18
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Ooptek roflmao do you actually looked into your data?
 
a) your dps with charmed pet at lvl 40 were barely 67....
b) lazy warlock at lvl 40 in group easy sustein 300DPS
c) lvl 41 berserk in TANKING mode managed outdamage you AND your pet...
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:13 AM   #19
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Hey Tanatus can you post the same message in any more threads? When you have something useful to add come on back.
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Old 05-07-2005, 01:15 AM   #20
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Not to point out the but you are taking on more then one mob at a time with charm. If you played a Bard in EQLive you would understand your DPS isn't just what your pet is doing, but what the mob is doing to your pet. Bards would charm the weaker mob and have the strong one pound it to near death so the Bard could finish it off. Bards in EQLive could kill whole packs of mobs at L60 and barely break 25DPS if you count it how you guys do. Again if you kill the charmed mob after the fight you HAVE to count all the DPS since said mob is now weaker in health. Unless I am missing something. Does an ex-charmed mob go to full health after charm breaks? If so I'm sorry for assuming it didn't.
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Old 05-07-2005, 02:19 AM   #21
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Junaru. Unlike EQ1 charm soloing, where your charmed pet, and the other mob would fight each other, in EQ2, your charmed pet does not seem to  generate agro.
So, your charmed pet beats on your target, and the target beats on YOU.
 
This means that usually, when charm breaks, your former pet is at full health, refreshed, hasted, buffed, and ready to kick your behind.
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Old 05-07-2005, 03:18 AM   #22
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ootpek wrote:

Ogre...I actually find that the harder the mobs you're fighting the better charm gets...if you're fighting mobs that die too fast then maybe your group is taking it easy etc.  Then I say you take it easy too and not charm....things will still die fast enough.  But if you're fighting a 40^^ with 2 adds with a beserker, defiler and you and you guys are having a hard time denting the 40^^ fast enough...CHARM THE ADDS AND LET THEM LOOSE!!! 



You're absolutely right wiith that group composition.
 
However, my group is along the lines of sk, warlock, bruiser, assasin, inquisitor, and me.  The mobs don't stand a chance. 
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Old 05-07-2005, 09:08 AM   #23
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What are we debating about? Charm sucks, you can't refresh it and it lasts less than a minute. It dosent hold argo and beacuse of locked encounters you can'thave one trail along without being in crawl speed.

Lets save our battles for better things, bottom line is Charm is not anything to really count on. Amusing at times and fun to play when with bored but in real combat situations its not practical in the least bit.

 

Edited for spelling as usual

Message Edited by Manusra on 05-06-2005 10:11 PM

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Old 05-07-2005, 03:02 PM   #24
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Manusra wrote:

What are we debating about? Charm sucks, you can't refresh it and it lasts less than a minute. It dosent hold argo and beacuse of locked encounters you can'thave one trail along without being in crawl speed.

Lets save our battles for better things, bottom line is Charm is not anything to really count on. Amusing at times and fun to play when with bored but in real combat situations its not practical in the least bit.


This is true for most of our spell lines. They looked good on the drawing board but, murder to implement. However, after the combat changes go through, I think that charm will have a longer duration, as battles will be lasting longer. In addition, there should be away of getting pet to use it's CAs added in.
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I've watched coercers who solo higher con heroics using 2 unbreakable roots while keeping 2 separate encounters locked down at the same time (no other class could pull off such a heroic feat). That is called Crowd Control. What Enchanter's are supposed to do.
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Old 05-09-2005, 02:17 PM   #25
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If you see the zerkers damage go down after you charm, it's typically because they start riposting less, proccing less berzerks, and their area attacks not working as well anymore.
(The best single target attack for my own zerker actually hits 2 targets, and they dont even have to be in the same encounter)
 
Do keep in mind, that while doing 67 dps might seem quite impressive to you as a lvl 40 coercer, a lvl 23 wizard is also in that area while using apprentice spells.
 
 
My dirge (low damage scout class) could sustain about 70 dps at lvl 37 too... on any mob, not just easy ones.
 
 
 
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:40 PM   #26
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Orki who Posts wrote:
If you see the zerkers damage go down after you charm, it's typically because they start riposting less, proccing less berzerks, and their area attacks not working as well anymore.
(The best single target attack for my own zerker actually hits 2 targets, and they dont even have to be in the same encounter)
 
Do keep in mind, that while doing 67 dps might seem quite impressive to you as a lvl 40 coercer, a lvl 23 wizard is also in that area while using apprentice spells.
 
 
My dirge (low damage scout class) could sustain about 70 dps at lvl 37 too... on any mob, not just easy ones.



Probably more of the latter, since their AOEs are hitting 1 less target and after charm breaks it takes longer to take out the charmed mob as it has acquired the group buffs. So in essense, our skills stretch out the fight. Therefore, same total damage over a longer time period, equals lower DPS.
 
It would appear that the illusionist's as the advantage here too. Since, their "pet" is not part of the attacking MOB group, won't turn on you at the end of the spell, and actually helps the group's DPS.

Message Edited by Nerjin on 05-10-2005 11:20 AM

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I've watched coercers who solo higher con heroics using 2 unbreakable roots while keeping 2 separate encounters locked down at the same time (no other class could pull off such a heroic feat). That is called Crowd Control. What Enchanter's are supposed to do.
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Old 05-11-2005, 05:40 AM   #27
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Can illusionists command their pets?  Former EQ1 enchanter wants to know...

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Old 05-11-2005, 05:55 AM   #28
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Chatham wrote:

Can illusionists command their pets?  Former EQ1 enchanter wants to know...


No.The Illusionist pet is a DoT spell, that has "special" abilities, that rarely go off, the damage is probably worse than your charm. It lasts 72s, has a recast time of 180s.
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Old 05-11-2005, 06:41 AM   #29
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Oh, so it's kinda like Protoflame or that cool(-looking) pack of dogs that necros get, eh?  Lame.  Those aren't pets.  They're graphical DoT's.  "Look what we can do!"  Bah.

This is not your great great great great great great great grandfather's EQ, that's for sure.

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Old 05-11-2005, 03:48 PM   #30
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Pinski wrote:


Chatham wrote:

Can illusionists command their pets?  Former EQ1 enchanter wants to know...



No.

The Illusionist pet is a DoT spell, that has "special" abilities, that rarely go off, the damage is probably worse than your charm. It lasts 72s, has a recast time of 180s.

Still it does not lengthen out combat time, doesn't add the group buffs to a MOB, and at the end of 72s turn on you causing the TANK to try and get it of and the healer spending mana trying to keep you alive. It just another one of Enchanter's poor damage spells.
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I've watched coercers who solo higher con heroics using 2 unbreakable roots while keeping 2 separate encounters locked down at the same time (no other class could pull off such a heroic feat). That is called Crowd Control. What Enchanter's are supposed to do.
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