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Old 05-11-2005, 06:14 PM   #31
Eadric

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ootpek wrote:
To quote Mark Twain..."There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."  You can go ahead and twist things around as much as you want at least I'm trying to get you guys some examples. 

Actually, to give credit where credit is due: the British ex-Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] lies and statistics" (it was later popularized by Mark Twain in the U.S.).

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Old 05-11-2005, 06:30 PM   #32
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"unaru. Unlike EQ1 charm soloing, where your charmed pet, and the other mob would fight each other, in EQ2, your charmed pet does not seem to  generate agro.
So, your charmed pet beats on your target, and the target beats on YOU.
 
This means that usually, when charm breaks, your former pet is at full health, refreshed, hasted, buffed, and ready to kick your behind.
I" WOW that really sucks. No doubt in my mind SOE needs to change the way charm works. If think if they made charmed pets work like in EQ1 you would have happier Enchanters. You just need to watch with the balance. In most MMORPG charm is over-powerful and normally gets nerfed hard cause of it.
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:17 AM   #33
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here's the thing ootpek , with a decent dps group 1 ^ is typically the best thing to mezz right ? Well a single ^ mob dosent last but 4 to 5 seconds in groups in im . you really dont have the time to cast beguile , its not worth it anyways .... If you get a resist and he's [Removed for Content] at you then either tank or healer has to concentrate there attention on you... All cause you wanted to cast beguile.  It's just not worth it.. You can make many many arguments why coercers are a decent class, for crap newby groups.. When ppl know what there doing , coercer/illusionest is the last class i want in group ... I would rater have and illusionest for the group invis , powers not that big an issue with all the new power regen equipment thats dropping these days .. Not to mention they made Totems last 30 mins now at 59 a tick ooc of corse but more that enought to keep yer tank full on power between pulls..
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Old 05-31-2005, 09:20 PM   #34
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It seems to me that we are really going about the 'charm' debate from the wrong point of view.  Charm is not an offensive spell - you can calculate your extra dps, but when you look at the total group dps, you are nearly always going to be lower overall in a full, well balanced group if you use charm. However, Charm is a good defensive spell and is part of the coercer's crowd control capabilities.  It takes one of the monsters off the tank, and helps take down the main target a little faster.  It makes the fight easier by extending the fight and controlling the flow.  This can be very useful in some situations like soloing or in unbalanced groups. The bottom line though is that right now, the combat system does not really have much of a place for crowd control if you are in a good group.  That is why spells that Charm, Mez, Fear, etc only have marginal value.  Fights are generally over very quickly and good tanks can handle a bunch of adds without too much of a problem.  These things will change eventually - that is the point of the combat revamp.  I think some coercer spells do need tweaking, but overall the crowd control capabilities will eventually become much more important even in their current form.  It pretty much sucks for now and I'm sure everyone is sick and tired of looking to the future and waiting for the combat revamp in patch after patch, but the devs really have their hands tied as far as making any significant changes until after that happens.  They can't start any serious balancing efforts until they finish redoing the combat core changes. PS.  Although I have not heard it announced officially, I have seen a dev post that indicated that the combat changes will be in patch 10.  (http://www.grimwell.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1892&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) I'll be interested in hearing what you think. If you're going for maximum contrast vs what you've seen before, you may want to wait for update #10 (tentatively 6/SMILEY. That one will likely have more tweaks in it than update #9 (5/25). Keep in mind that this was an unofficial post and is subject to change, but that sounds like the major combat changes to me planned for next week.
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Old 05-31-2005, 11:45 PM   #35
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Arsenal you are mistaken - charm is not defensive spell either ... If coercer can charm thing it mean coercer can tank same thing no swat
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:10 AM   #36
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Tanatus wrote:Arsenal you are mistaken - charm is not defensive spell either ... If coercer can charm thing it mean coercer can tank same thing no swat

You can tank Heroic monsters without taking damage? Looking at the OP's example where he is charming the ^ brigand while fighting the rest and then breaking the encounter after each kill to reset it seems to indicate otherwise - he can't even tank the little heroic guys.  Maybe you can tank those guys fine, but I don't think most people can.
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:48 AM   #37
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Arsenal first and foremost if I have guardian  buffs I can tank double arrow mob that 1-2 lvl below me w/o taking much damage
Second fact is that coercer cannt charm double arrow up mob only 1 arrow up top - those mob dont pose any treat to any class...
Lastly DPS of 1 arrow up vs 2 arrow up mob (and it most common case scenario then charm can be used) is so small its not worth even mention it (less then 80DPS) for example EACH of warlock spells along have 80+DPS
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Old 06-01-2005, 02:30 AM   #38
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after he mentioned the slight defensive application, he did say the BOTTOM LINE is that changes need to be made and are coming...but u did'nt comment on that at all. Like he said that really is the bottom line of it, nuff said, yes charm sucks, so do lots of other skills and no tanks should'nt be so tough and that sucks but changes are coming so enuff of all this. Its as if you guys never learn!
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Old 06-01-2005, 08:09 PM   #39
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Tanatus wrote:Arsenal first and foremost if I have guardian  buffs I can tank double arrow mob that 1-2 lvl below me w/o taking much damage
Second fact is that coercer cannt charm double arrow up mob only 1 arrow up top - those mob dont pose any treat to any class...
Lastly DPS of 1 arrow up vs 2 arrow up mob (and it most common case scenario then charm can be used) is so small its not worth even mention it (less then 80DPS) for example EACH of warlock spells along have 80+DPS

Thats pretty much my point so I'm not sure what you are arguing against, lol.  Charm is not very useful as an offensive spell and the way the combat system works, a well balanced group can handle most heroic content easily.  Btw, if you have a Guardian in your group and you having to tank anything, something is wrong there SMILEY.  My examples of where Charm could be useful as a defense spell are in solo situations or in groups that are not well balanced (ie. without a good tank or healer).  And I think that these type of crowd control skills will be more useful in the new combat system as well.  I think Charm still needs some tweaking - especially as far as gaining the group buffs are concerned, but the concept of the spell isn't a bad one.
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:41 PM   #40
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This was my conclusion on a question about beguile in the spell abiltiy forum : http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=51538
 
"Now from time to time you will see a post from an happy coercer saying charm is great because in an encounter of two mobs he see first mob die in 1/2 the time the second one. 

This happy coercer thinks his pet helped achieve to kill the first mob twice as fast when in reality  what  he REALLY ACHIEVED is to make second kill take twice as long. 

Compare any fight with and without charm and you will see how silly this spell is."

 

Message Edited by Vlaven on 06-03-2005 10:41 AM

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Old 06-11-2005, 09:12 PM   #41
Tehom

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Charm is really only effective in small or weak groups. Don't get me wrong - I use the spell pretty constantly, myself. But I don't think charm having some sort of damage increase for its duration would be at all out of the question, given that the spell is both highly situational and our damage-dealing abilities are extraordinarily slight. I'd also vastly prefer having our charm damage increased to just getting boring nuke upgrades.
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